Micro (Normal) 828: Random Facts Mafia

[Cobblerfone]

Howdy. I’m probably not going to take this game too seriously until it officially starts. I am here though.

[Cobblerfone]

@stk: why was a self vote the best way to start discussion? Wouldn't it be better to allow the other players to look for connections?

Discussion can start in many different ways

I'm well aware, which makes me wonder why you chose that method in particular

@cobbler, mala: presumably, players posting in the pregame have read their role pm, so it should be possible to glean information about their alignement from their posts, no? Why would you want to keep out of the discussion?

@Elsa: Post #18 seems surprisingly critical of stk. What makes you believe #16 is more likely to come from scum then from town?

They haven’t necessarily read their role pm.

[Cobblerfone]

I mean you're *physically* able to do it, but actually doing so is probably breaking a rule.
When did you read your role PM? Immediately after making your first post?

I can’t find it in the site rules or this game’s rules. And if it’s a “pregame discussion” that means it’s before the game and before confirmation. You can correct me if I’m wrong.

[Cobblerfone]

^ I had missed that because I’m on my phone. There is another reason though and it’s that I’m busy. Another thing is that some people may not take their role seriously until the game begins. I admit, some will.

[Cobblerfone]

Pretty sure 48 hours have passed. So day 1 will start soon right? Hopefully

[Cobblerfone]

Micro games never go well with a day-one quickhammer and I don't intend to so no claims yet. unless singleton intends to.

I've been busy but I'm mostly done with my "big" programming project that's due Friday, so I'll probably reread over lunch. I'll probably start by sifting pre-game posts; determining which posts to take seriously and which not. I'm not opposed to malakittens's lynch -- I'm just opposed to the idea of day one ending so early -- though admittedly I have no idea where we go from here. I guess I'll be back with my thoughts on who's town and scum based on a town!mala and scum!mala flip.

[Cobblerfone]

VOTE: cobbler

Fair enough. Getting a second wagon going can provide more info. And I have been more detached this game, which I understand could give my posts a scummy tone. Which is why I don’t get too many scum-vibes from singleton or wisdom for suspecting me.

[Cobblerfone]

Not too much to go off of now (especially from phone). Will look at mala wagon again see if there’re any suspcious votes (though I think I have seen quick wagon all town before)

VOTE: aero

[Cobblerfone]

@cobbler: based on #101, I get the feeling that you might have misread my post. I unvoted.

That is indeed what happened.

[Cobblerfone]

@Wisdom: how good are you at scum?

[Cobblerfone]

@cobbler pretty good

@mala I liked how you reacted

What would you say is the biggest part of your success? Are you generally good at getting into the same mindset that you get in as town? Or are you better at just faking it?

[Cobblerfone]

@cobbler pretty good

@mala I liked how you reacted

What would you say is the biggest part of your success? Are you generally good at getting into the same mindset that you get in as town? Or are you better at just faking it?

That is literally the biggest fishing I've ever seen in a game of mafia.

Why dont you just ask for a recent scumgame of his instead of doing 20 questions?

fishing what?

I like Wisdom's style so I want him to stick around. But to soothe my paranoia about town-leader seeming types being mafia I'm trying to understand him to try to get a better read of him. I like to scumhunt by trying to get into other people's headspace and seeing if their behavior matches scum or town. But I understand everyone's different so when I feel their personality is a type that's hard for me to read, I try to clarify more of their personality.

[Cobblerfone]

Its not fishing
He doesn't know what to say so he copies my 14

aye. it's not a bad question.

[Cobblerfone]

Has he had a single read in the game yet?

I do. Just no scumreads yet. And not enough strong townreads to use process-of-elimination. Since I'm having a lack of scumreads, I figure I should probably vote someone with fewer posts (aero) since that implies to me they are likely scum (i.e. lack of scummy content implies scum lacks content)

[Cobblerfone]

I kind of suspect Wisdom, since he suspects me and he's supposed to be good (burden of proficiency). But it's still early game so I'm not taking my paranoia too seriously.

[Cobblerfone]

How do you feel about voting flubber?

Considering he’s one of my three town reads, not very well.

[Cobblerfone]

I must admit I'm struggling here. I see a lot of names being thrown around, but I have trouble understanding the reasoning. It doesn't help that I feel like I don't have the time or energy to give this game the attention it needs.

But can someone please try to convince me that the player they're voting is scum? Just give me the reasoning, so that I can try to assess it.

My case against Elsa boils down to his early Mala vote. The progression from 62 to 70 feels really off to me. In post 62, Elsa is questioning wisdom's reasoning for voting Mala, giving the impression that he's disagreeing. Wisdom's explanation is a one liner which doesn't go in depth at all, yet somehow Elsa finds that one liner convincing enough to threaten Mala with a vote if she votes wisdom. Then when mala actually votes, Elsa votes mala, according to #86 not because he suspects her, but because he said he would. Yet despite the fact that he doesn't believe her to be scum, he's pushing for her lynch hard in #86 and #88.

I can't understand why that sequence would come from town, as it seems extremely unlikely to help with catching scum. It feels like stirring trouble for the sake of it, so that it seems he's doing stuff when he's achieving exactly nothing.

I don't really find your case all that convincing. I see her behavior there as NAI judging by what seems to be EJ's personality.

66 does sound really insincere though. Which could be muddled by the "extravagance" but even taking that into account it sounds like pretty bad "blending in."

VOTE: Elsa Jay

[Cobblerfone]

*doesn't agree with the case*

*precedes to vote anyway*

You do realize my very introduction is the antithesis to "blending in", as you put it. My nature means I love to stand out. Using the excuse of blending in is a very weak argument. I WANT the attention on me. I WANT your honest reads so I can call you out on bullshit. I confront to get you to fuck up.

Wisdom didn't fall for the bait, so I liked him. Mala's reaction was expected and I got my read there. But everyone else is varying degrees of scummy.

I acknowledged it's not as clear-cut for you.

If

five

players out of eight are varying degrees of scummy when we can assume there are two scum that's not convincing me you're doing anything effective. Though it could be we're just "speaking different languages." (Everyone starts "null" for me. Which is unfortunately where I still am with half the roster)

This post feels like an overreaction but I wonder if that feeling of mine is itself an overreaction due to the pressure I've felt this game? Even if it were it's unfortunately not very alignment-indicative for you. But then, what would be?

[Cobblerfone]

UNVOTE: Flubber
VOTE: Cobblerfone

Still not liking him, and didn't like 162. On the other hand I find Flubber backing up his actions more.

@Flubber:
169 Which posts made you realise that?

@Cobbler:
What made you vote Elsa Jay in 167? Were you already scumreading him? Why did you vote him only there?

And yeah, still liking Elsa for town.

Has he had a single read in the game yet?

I do. Just no scumreads yet. And not enough strong townreads to use process-of-elimination. Since I'm having a lack of scumreads, I figure I should probably vote someone with fewer posts (aero) since that implies to me they are likely scum (i.e. lack of scummy content implies scum lacks content)

Not always

I'm not particulary scumreading elsa or aero. But I'm not townreading them either. I've been attempting to use my vote as a tool for pressure. Admittedly, as I seem to be the most widely scumread, that pressure is weak. I had switched my vote from aero to elsa because it didn't seem very useful alone. However, since almost everyone seems to be townreading elsa, I'll trust the mob.

VOTE: aero

[Cobblerfone]

i tend to scumread verbosity, it feels like manipulation

I suppose that's fitting given your minimalism. Though I figured your minimalist style was to keep information out of the hands of the enemy (to keep scum out-of-the-dark for nightkill manipulation or keeping as little to go on for town voters).

[Cobblerfone]

@Elsa: Do you honestly believe that my early posts were stifling discussion with me??? What do you think was the purpose of all those questions I was asking there?

I'm wanting too see his response to all the "Elsa town" stuff first, considering he said he couldn't see my line of reasoning, which is why his vote is on me.

I feel like I'm on a completely different wavelength from everyone else here. I tend to play based on analysis and reasoning. But when I give my case on Elsa and ask for cases on the others being voted, I feel like I get no feedback to work with. The only thing I'm getting back is that wisdom and stk feel Elsa's town, but I have absolutely no clue why.

I'm not putting in enough time to thoroughly analyse everyone in this game. That might not be much of a problem if there were other players in this game who were giving their reasoning, so that I could analyse that reasoning and form my opinions based on that. But everyone in this game seems to work on feeling and one liners; explaining why you hold a certain opinion seems to be almost taboo here. Which has two negative consequences for me. First, it makes it extremely difficult for me to remember who did what in this game, making my time away from the game virtually useless. Secondly, reading the thread feels like reading through superfluous chatter, making me loath to put in the time that's necessary for a thorough understanding. Which brings me back at the beginning.

I usually try to combine feeling with reason. But that's mostly because if I go only off of reason, I personally am just the type to get too many possibilities as I come up with WIFOMy scenarios. I mostly use empathy to get townreads, and reason combined with gut for scumreads.

That being said, I'm confident scum is in aero/Wisdom/mala due to PoE now. Everyone else feels too town (or has been determined to be town by consensus in the case of elsa).

[Cobblerfone]

Unfortunately my playstyle in general, especially day 1, relies more on feeling and unspoken agreements between each other. It's why I saw What Wisdom did and basically said "yep, gonna be townreading him all day 1" and it holds true.

Also why when Single first busted in trying to immediately interrupt my 1 v 1 convo with Wisdom by bringing up his meta at an inappropriate moment when we 'clearly' had an understanding of what we were doing, thats the first issue of what you saw as not coming from town.

Thats why my posts 18 and 24 went for him. He broke the silent pact and study. It probably doesnt seem logical and these agreements of mine with Wisdom may be all in my head, but whatever. It works for me and lets me discover scum.

UNVOTE: I'm about to go to bed, so hopefully Gamma leaves me a nice new VC to look at so I see where everything is.

Okay. I think I can townread you on my own now. Thanks for the towny feeling post.

[Cobblerfone]

@singleton: the reason I’m willing to go along with everyone else’s townread os because I wasn’t scumreading elsa (just null) and I figure it’s easier to find town than scum. And if she were scum she’d likely only have one partner.

[Cobblerfone]

@singleton: the reason I’m willing to go along with everyone else’s townread os because I wasn’t scumreading elsa (just null) and I figure it’s easier to find town than scum. And if she were scum she’d likely only have one partner.

And if I turned out scum, who would be my partner?

I'd honestly like to know which one you think I'd be scum with. It'll let me see your thought process.

That was the point? So many people townreading you not

all

of them could be your partner?

[Cobblerfone]

@michel: I can buy a bus from Wisdom. I can also buy me just plain not good at noticing scum.

[Cobblerfone]

Well I don’t feel like voting elsa. I’d rather we all just switch to aero at this point since we can’t come to consensus.

@mod: we can vote for a “no-lynch” right? (We’re at even numbers anyway)

[Cobblerfone]

@mod: you missed wisdom’s vote on me

[Cobblerfone]

I will be up before deadline. I’m willing to vote aero or no-lynch

[Cobblerfone]

I suggest the votes be PM’d out of fairness. Indeed, while I want the deadline, I think it’s unfair to the scum to give us townies a break after not being able to come to consensus after 10 days (or however long it’s been).

I think it also best if everyone just ignore discussing this further in the thread. Again, out of fairness.

[Cobblerfone]

VOTE: no lynch

[Cobblerfone]

VOTE: mala

[Cobblerfone]

Oh the rules have been changed from plurality at deadline to no-lynch at deadline

[Cobblerfone]

Well Wisdom, if I cant hear anything from you either by the time I wake up tomorrow we may have a problem. I really hope you have an extra long post that'll atleast show them some progress. I ain't defending you anymore even if your town. I've learned when to cut my losses and get off a sinking ship.

VOTE: Elsa


Will explain later I got work

This is bugging me. I just don't see scum posting this in this context.

VOTE: aero

[Cobblerfone]

Sorry. Wasn't quite sure when this game would go live again and I have work Friday mornings.

i thought cobb was an experienced player

he read as frozen d1 to me which I tend to associate with newness

idk the dude tho so I'll check this out later when I have more free time/shouldn't be pretending to work

I'm somewhat experienced. I've IC'd before, but I haven't played online mafia for over two years. Also unless I'm insane my freezing is perfectly understandable to me. I'm town looking for scum. Since it seems there are only two scum and one of them was V/LA for basically all of day 1. And as I said before:

Has he had a single read in the game yet?

I do. Just no scumreads yet. And not enough strong townreads to use process-of-elimination. Since I'm having a lack of scumreads, I figure I should probably vote someone with fewer posts (aero) since that implies to me they are likely scum (i.e. lack of scummy content implies scum lacks content)

i really dont see how

the scum might be stacked if theres a vig in a 9 player game

I doubt that. A vig or sk is swingy -- especially in a micro. I doubt there's an sk just because this is a micro but I suppose it's possible.

I suppose I have no reason to not scum read cobbler still

that really makes me think you are scum LOL flub

Yeah. Flubber's post here makes me feel like he's scum who's bummed-out his partner died and now scumreads me because he "has to". I could be misinterpreting however.

@Wisdom: how good are you at scum?

@Cobbz why ask this and was it alarming to you that Wizzy never responded?

He actually did respond.

@cobbler pretty good

@mala I liked how you reacted

[Cobblerfone]

@Wisdom: how good are you at scum?

@Cobbz why ask this and was it alarming to you that Wizzy never responded?

As for "why", that's already in my ISO.

[Cobblerfone]

that really makes me think you are scum LOL flub

I am confident enough in a flub/cobbler lynch chain to be okay with this

This actually reads pretty town.

Looking at singleton's wagon vote onto aero looks pretty good on the surface but going into his iso, I'm less solidly convinced. Especially since Michel's questions @aero don't particularly feel like they come from a scum teammate (thus the worst is town).

VOTE: singleton

Still have to review mala and elsa. Pretty sure mala's town though.

[Cobblerfone]

@Anyone: why is flubber scum? I can reread I guess.

VOTE: Cobbler

why?

if he was scum wouldnt he have voted flub

actually quite the opposite imo
his read on Flubbz feels half-baked and TMIey. I actually see scum!Cobbz leaving town!Flubbz alive as a game losing mislynch.

but like we want {Cobbler, Flubber} dead by endgame. the entire possibility of his win rests on creating one more mislynch. and his push against singleton rn doesn't feel like town nailing scum.

there's a lot of other minor stuff I didn't like about his posting on this game but it pushes into playstyley issues. :/

Why are you townreading singleton?

My read on Cobbler is violently conflicted. Like be doesn't read like someone who is playing town solving the game at all. and that's gradually floating down.

while I was doing my reread I had a kind of feeling like Cobbler didn't read all that aligned with Aero which admittedly made me really like your townread of him. I'm just not sure there's enough there to actually swing me to thinking he's town over like {you, Elsa, Mala}

There's one scum left. I'm townreading every one but one player. I'm voting that one player. I'm not bothering to explain because no one's asked and it's more of a gut thing anyway. I can go ahead and quote singleton's posts regarding his aero vote though. I'm not entirely sure I can competently verbalize it though. It is MOSTLY a PoE thing though -- same with my Day One votes for aero.

I dont think cobblers read flip on me is AI. I don't understand his singleton vote either though

I'm town. Michel/the worst probably isn't scum with aero. I'm townreading everyone else. That leaves singleton.

[Cobblerfone]

First, flubber's posts about aero next will be singleton's

Not fully caught up

Aero is a bad vote unless you can sell me hard on everyone else being town

not a fan of flubber parroting that stupid argument

Dude fucking really

You're trying to wagon what's basically a cla

Fuck outta here

Why, Flubber? I'm not really seeing it anymore

I still don't think they're towntelling and they owe less benefit of the doubt than aero

[Cobblerfone]

Yes Wisdom, V/LA doesn’t mean scum.

I’m not even convinced you scumread him, and it doesn’t make sense to pressure him either, so please make your case against him.

What else could you be wagoning Aero for? Pressure?

Wisdom for the last time, why are you voting Aeronaut?

Aero we have just over 2 days left in the deadline so hopefully we can get a catch-up from you soon.

Wisdom, no one is asking you to make an extra long post. I just want to explain your vote on Aero.

See, that was just one word and I’m surprised at how much pushing was needed to make you say it.

Anyway it seems that Aero’s internet problem is fixed and I know he obvtowns quite easily, so let’s wait for him to get back.

Where is Aeronaut? He has posted elsewhere but not here.

UNVOTE:

Ugh we only have a bit more than one day left.
Can Mala get back to say what she caught onto Elsa and get Aero's thoughts here?

Elsa's attitude to the game has been a town-oriented mindset, so I won't be voting there. On the other hand, Aero's time is up as he has posted elsewhere and not here, so I'll be voting there.

VOTE: Aeronaut

Cobbler and Elsa were my strongest 2 townreads :/

I'll reread the game to see if I still like both of them

@Mod

Can we get another prod on Aero, and since he is likely not coming back, can we get an extension?

Tentatively
UNVOTE: Aero
VOTE: Malakittens

Have been wanting to move here for a while now. Mala hasn't provided much content after the start of the game, and posts starting 147 don't seem to be scumhunting, they were generic questions/answers which don't assist in finding scum. I wanted to give her a chance to explain her Elsa vote but her time's up.

Admittedly they're not quite rubbing me the wrong way like they were before. I could switch to flubber, but I think I'll do meta first.

[Cobblerfone]

Yeah. I can switch to flubber

VOTE: flubber

[Cobblerfone]

I get up from going to bed to post that I'm rethinking michel/worst being lock-town and a hammer happens.

Sum-up: thought "why call out your scum buddy on confirm time" now I think "scum would be more likely to be hyper aware of their partner"

But who knows. The game could be over.

[Cobblerfone]

Yes! My last minute read on Michel right before I died was correct!

[Cobblerfone]

I don't know how scummy that hammer was, it's anti-town as hell but town do it wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too much for it to be actually considered scummy.

Meanwhile I also have a tin-foil hat theory of the worst being scum, but I don't know if I should trust it

Let me tell you what this was, btw

Gamma intially wrote "the worst replaces Aeronaut" instead of MichelSaberhart

Yeah.

@Gamma: Thanks for modding, but please work on the mechanics of modding. I also thought the offer of extending day one was pretty town-biased. Also changing from plurality-at-deadline to no-lynch-at-deadline was quite weird and (since I was the prime plurality-lynch candidate) made it seem like it came out of favoritism towards the town.

[Cobblerfone]

Can we get the relevant PTs released soon?

Dead PT only had wisdom and aero (I didn't get added and so assumed there wasn't a dead PT)

Mafia would've only had aero and michel/theworst.

I doubt they're very exciting.

[Cobblerfone]

Oh I forgot about flubber.