Micro 900: Autumnal Mafia (Game Complete)

[Menalque]

I still don’t really get it but maybe that’s bc I’m v tired

[Menalque]

Could you elaborate specifically a bit more on this and particularly the final phrase after the comma

It'd make Menalque a weak player too unless he tends to blame mislynch victims for mislynches and as far as I know he doesn't, moreso than anyone else does.

[Menalque]

So you think it’s scum!indicative that I was trashing town!wimpy’s play?

Man I’m gonna go to sleep otherwise I’m gonna end up asking you to explain this a million times tonight only to get it in 1 go tomorrow

[Menalque]

Would also appreciate if you could explain Aldu’s position in your reads for when I wake up

@icon i can’t remember if I said this today, I think I might have, but can u pls explain ur progression on me

[Menalque]

If datisi is scum here she’s literally destroyed her scumrange

Like wrapped it up, put it in a cannon, fired it into the sun levels of destroyed it

If she leads 2 mislynched at this point then hard defends scum in 5p lylo I’m still not voting for her in 3p lylo

[Menalque]

Especially given the lack of daytalk which I keep forgetting is a thing

[Menalque]

Dats, honestly, I do think you should be TRing me incredibly hard right now bc as gross as it is to bring this up I think you as a person know me well enough to know that I as a person wouldn’t do what I did to wimpy as scum knowing I was doing it to town

Like I can accept other people wondering if I’m enough of a cunt that I would but I think you know me well enough to know that’s far beyond what I would do in bad faith

[Menalque]

Yeah, I think that makes sense and I’d also rather not talk about that aspect of things too much because it gets into an equally horrible and gross AtE territory (of saying: wow, so by voting me you’re saying you think I’m an abominable cunt) so I won’t bring it up again

Honestly, y’all can treat it as a scumclaim if I do

[Menalque]

I think I’m very town on play here though which I think makes sense for you to TR me for

Like there’s no reason for scum!me who’s feeling burned out to create a massive load of attention on me when I could definitely have coasted at least through today

[Menalque]

Plus tbh scum!me would fake paranoia about you rather than just acknowledge that you’re blindingly town

[Menalque]

I mean, don’t get me wrong, I think you’re rapidly becoming one of the best scum players on site so you could be scum who’s stepping it up to the next level

But like rather than just acknowledging that that possibility exists I would be trying to show you more that “oh no guys, datisi might be scum here because she’s really good eve tho I do tr her she still might be oh no I’m so confuse about her but I guess she’s town”

As opposed to me here being like “yeah, dats is literally just town”

[Menalque]

Bc I’m borderline treating datisi as a mason but in order for that to work she needs to TR me harder than “I don’t think I can sort him today”

[Menalque]

Plus tbh scum!me would fake paranoia about you rather than just acknowledge that you’re blindingly town

Why not like are you bad at scum? It's not like this is a nightless

*why, not why not

I think I’m p good at scum but I get antsy about people spotting that I’m pocketing them since dr drew caught me trying to do it early on in surprise mafia so I normally try to put in some healthy fake paranoia if I’m scum

Wicked and datisi can both confirm that from my recent scum games with them

With datisi it’s what I faked around my read on her in 892 and with wicked it was my approach to pocketing skitter

[Menalque]

I did not sleep yet
It is 2:07am

[Menalque]

Also I’m holding out on a pipe dream of scum believing that I’d fake my TR on dats being this strong because I believed she was scum and then flip on her in lylo if we were there together, allowing us to kill whatever scum was foolish enough to believe that and to bring us both to 3p lylo

[Menalque]

Put simply I am wifoming the scum

[Menalque]

In the hopes of keeping datisi alive

[Menalque]

This is more wifom for them to parse too

[Menalque]

intent

[Menalque]

intent -30 mins

[Menalque]

I’m not sure if I’m tunnelling or not that’s the problem

You, I was asking because of this

Did you read the rest of the thread? Opinion on other slots?

Yeah but it’s kind of conditional on stuff

Atm I’d say my lynchpool is (wimpy!slot, al-thingy #1, al-thingy #2, wicked) but depending on flips within that I would probably reevaluate my townreads

Tbh I’m just really ashamed of how I treated wimpy (rightfully so, I know) and I’m struggling to get back into this game based on that

If wimpy is town then scum is in (wicked, aldu, almi) I think

But if wicked is town then that may need to be re-evaluated

The whole '

I've done nothing to warrant a scumread on me

' line is the very essence of why I'm currently scumreading you.

You don't necessarily need concrete reasons to scumread or vote someone - that is a myth. The whole game for scum is to not do scummy things, therefore it's usually what they're not doing that you need to pick up on.

You're seeming like scum who feel they've been caught unfairly/by poor reasoning.

I'm voting for this guy just because of this....

VOTE: emps

Why are you not voting the player who lied and has clogged the game up pushing that lie?

The thread is becoming so clogged full of spam I'm losing track of what the exact arguments are.

What was the lie that Menalque has been pushing?

The whole '

I've done nothing to warrant a scumread on me

' line is the very essence of why I'm currently scumreading you.

You don't necessarily need concrete reasons to scumread or vote someone - that is a myth. The whole game for scum is to not do scummy things, therefore it's usually what they're not doing that you need to pick up on.

You're seeming like scum who feel they've been caught unfairly/by poor reasoning.

So you have an illogical reason to scum read me because I have literally not done anything to warrant a scum read.

I disagree.

Can you point out where Menalque lied, please?

Ok, I don't really agree with the argument of either side here - they are both a little on the pedantic side, but what I think is more important it the result of these arguments.

Menalque has been relentlessly pushing his scumread in a way which he might not have had the cause to do so early on as scum, and has done so in a way which reads as genuinely frustrated and believing in his read.

Wimpy on the other hand reads like caught scum who are desperately trying to wriggle free, and then get so far entrenched that they feel they have to commit to their counter-vote. I don't believe Wimpy's confidence in his scumread/s as much as I believe Menalque's.

Thought all of this was town in how he was approaching wimpy!slot and in his reasons for SRing the wimpy defence

I didn’t lie and I liked him trying to get wimpy to clarify that too

Finally although there’s mild equity with scum!wimpy and it very mildly pings me that he said more than once that wimpy he thought had good chances of being scum, he didn’t vote him, I think scum is somewhat more likely to get on there if it’s a buddy

If wimpy is town I think it’s much more likely that scum was avoiding things and letting town eat itself which brings things back to some combination of (wicked, aldu, almi)

I think pops will probably make it relatively clear if wimpy!slot is town after all and honestly I’m starting to feel that way even if I don’t have good reasons to

I need to reread it but again I’m not really ready to do that yet

If pops is town, then the PoE is good I think

[Menalque]

In other words, Menalque won't hammer me, therefore I have no reason to claim.

Guess you’ll find out in 14 minutes

[Menalque]

If you have any last words, now’s the time

[Menalque]

menalque can you confirm receipt of my messages?

I see them

[Menalque]

I think aldu is town

[Menalque]

VOTE: iconeum

[Menalque]

This is where I was wrong I think

[Menalque]

Don’t really believe icon’s reaction to my intents if he was genuinely SRing aldu

[Menalque]

Don’t really believe icon’s reaction to my intents if he was genuinely SRing aldu

i was pretty confident you weren't gonna go thru with hammer

Why?

Because this is like the only reason why you’re town here

[Menalque]

Gotta go teach

[Menalque]

Omw to class but I’ll say this: it wasn’t fake intent, I was willing to hammer

I don’t think aldu insisiting that I wouldn’t and refusing outright to claim comes from scum

[Menalque]

I have a hard TR on Icon.

Menalque I’m much less sure on but still leaning Town. I worry I could be wrong about either him or Pops.

Explain the hard TR on icon

[Menalque]

Like my thing with icon is this, 1 sec

[Menalque]

I don't actually feel that pressured tho

you realize it's anti-town to stall a claim, right?

especially if ur town?

feeling pretty good about a hammer now tho

intent -30 mins

provide other reads plz

your iso is terrible beyond belief, and after the shitstorm all you did was literally suck up to datisi

intent -30 mins

decisions decisions

to end the day and avoid having to post reads and hope everyone forgets come D2

or

play the game and work with us before you hammer going gently into D2

This all feels rly contradictory to me apart from in the case where icon genuinely doesn’t believe I’m gonna hammer in advance

But like, your top SR is about to get hammered fypov. You should be happy about this, and when your posts are directed at said SR you’re egging a hammer on. But then on me instead of considering my hammer pro-town (by lynching what icon believes is scum or for pressuring him into claiming) he chooses to shade my play instead as having a terrible ISO or for trying to weasel out of ending day

I don’t think that’s a reaction that makes sense when you’re encouraging a hammer on your top SR and it looks like it will happen

I think that’s setting up for after a mislynch push

[Menalque]

VOTE: iconeum

i'd love to see you try and sell this as my scumgame

i really would

What makes this out of your scumrange?

[Menalque]

I don’t think it is, because while you played scum very lurkily in AvP, people talking about 1942 reminded me that you can also play as hyperposting scum

[Menalque]

I would still like icon to explain his exact progression on me though

Like what point did you flip to the TR and what exactly prompted that as you were catching up?

you keep insisting i explain this but I thought it was pretty obvious from my ISO?

Read 695 (where I can see your scumcase), 746, 747, 765780

If you have any questions after reading those, shoot.

Especially given the lack of daytalk which I keep forgetting is a thing

ehhh you keep laying it on real thick

No-daytalk violates Popses for the Ethical Treatment of Scumz (PETS).
If I'd known this was no daytalk I don't think I'd have risked replacing in. If I rolled scum I would stick it out. Would just be so sad.

ehhhh there's a chance scum have daytalk tho?

@Emps, I like that you're doing catchups "real-time", but is there ever any "conclusion"? What are your reads atm?

I'm gonna

piggyback

this question.
Wicked didn't do catchups real time and he had more content than you.

~ahem~

lol oof

town
{ico} - strong tl
{datisi, luca} - tl
{wicked, alduskel(or however you say it), mena} - null
{alimidia} - nullscum
{wimpy slot} - scumlean (might need to reconsider, ill look into it tmrw)
scum

yay fuck me like 10 pages to catch up on

but first time for reasonings

ico - i think his posts abt the whole mena datisi vs wimpy situation were towny
datisi - talked to me before about basically having a stroke in the scum pt every other post, and theres no daytalk but she seems relaxed/natural
luca - kind of gut tbh but i also like his reasonings
wicked - not much to go off of. i really dont see why people have been scumreading this tbh
aludskel or whatever - not much to go off of either
mena - i really just keep going back and forth on him tbh im really not sure
alimidia - tone feels a off and voting me for posting a ton and doing real time catchups is ???
wimpy - tone is off and he felt overly defensive, and kept emphasizing that hes done nothing scummy at all

pedit : oh hello there

i still have 10 pages to catch up on so ill let you know once im done

emps my man

i like your tonal datisi read, but would it change if there would be scum daychatter?

weak luca read

your wicked read is low effort? have you actually read the game? I brought up a few critical points on wicked that i'm about to respond to in my next post. Are you scum with Wicked here?

alud has posted enough to have an opinion on...

Ali... Hmm. That seems like an OMGUS read to me, and feels like how town!emps would read it.

Wimpy read is meh as well :s Everyone would be overly defensive with the crap Menal pulled there.

Which brings me to your menal read that you are hedging.

How can you not have an opinion on him? Like it or hate it, his ISO is FILLED with AI stuff.

This is probably town!Emps that is just not into this game. His reads are very feely right now, especially wrt Ali. He isn't pushing a scum!agenda and reminds me of myself when I'm town just stuck in a game.

I don’t think that makes sense as an explanation for icon pushing me to provide more content before end of day given that he’d already made claims like this

[Menalque]

So there are reasons for icon to push me to produce more, but “easier to read on D2” ain’t it given his earlier opinions on my ISO

[Menalque]

Lol I mixed up you and insomnia when I looked at the playerlist to check alignments

[Menalque]

UNVOTE:

Think scum is in (wicked, alim, still maybe pops but I need to reread there)

That said, why was the thing you leaped to: this must have been coordinated!!

[Menalque]

I thought about it and then remembered that the wagon has struggled to actually get above L-2

[Menalque]

Also the fact that you and Luca have been on it makes me les iffy, and if icon is town then that’s a p town motivated wagon

[Menalque]

Wdym pops?

Like I said, I was open to hammering there, aldu’s reaction convinced me they were town

Which is not withstanding the fact that declaring raw intent as soon as it’s available is just one of my go to things

@emps pls confirm, I also did this last time we played together I’m p sure

[Menalque]

Mechanics are (1) boring and (2) open to abuse by scum who intentionally make the incorrect mechanical play

[Menalque]

Sorry, it's necessary to be rank about how I characterize the meta of a player and how that contextualizes my reads. He also was sloppy with the fruit mechanic in AvP instead of working to leash it, which made it more difficult to understand his alignment. If I go into games treating him as a sloppy player and not a booksie one, I'm going to read him more accurately.
Sorry not sorry to be clear
I felt sure it was going to be a movie that ended with a lolhammer and when the movie didn't end that way and Alduskkel pointed out how that's a dangerous movie for scum!Menalque I am worried

I think this is a towny post?

[Menalque]

Alim is starting to ping me again with the way he just floats through the game whenever the spotlight isn’t on him.

I generally don’t like Aldu’s reaction, but there are one or two things I’ve seen that have given me pause for thought. I’ll try and put them into words Tomorrow when I’m on the computer.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Wicked

I think these are fine @aldu

[Menalque]

Alim is starting to ping me again with the way he just floats through the game whenever the spotlight isn’t on him.

I generally don’t like Aldu’s reaction, but there are one or two things I’ve seen that have given me pause for thought. I’ll try and put them into words Tomorrow when I’m on the computer.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Wicked

I think these are fine @aldu

oh wow i'm instantly convinced

Huh, that was surprisingly easy

Nice

[Menalque]

Hmm

[Menalque]

Subject: Newbie 1951 (Day 4)

intent

Subject: Newbie 1951 (Day 4)

It is kinda funny that the two unvotes came from the two people I thought would definitely not unvote here tho, and I’m not sure if it’s AI or not

So, this is me declaring intent when I had zero intent of actually hammering (which again, not what happened here) and catching scum with it

Emps can confirm, he was in this game

[Menalque]

Because at the time he was in PoE? And Mena even said before he's fine with lynching there? And there was a case that lit you sheeped?

Like why is it so unbelievable to think that the reaction to intent made him reconsider

so you think that:

'Scumalque: yo bro ur ima PoE you have 30 minutes before I hamma you'

'Alidus: ehh i'm good not claiming suck it lovecake'

'DragonBoi: ehhhh menal is gonna look preeeeeety bad if he lynches this and it flips town'



'Scumalque: aaight i'm good'

is town behaviour?

And this is basically begging the question

[Menalque]

Aldu refusing to claim — not orthodox. I’m not talking about whether it’s pro-town, or anti-town or whatever, but it’s out of what is expected. I can see possible scum motivation there in deciding to intentionally look out of the ordinary in the hopes of people following the logic I’m using now, but I don’t think that’s likely.

I think that being that calm and declaring that you don’t think the hammer is coming is much more likely to come from town precisely because lynching scum D1 in a micro is ++town!EV, and tbh I think scum is much more likely to go along with the orthodoxy and at least make a fake claim that may keep them alive.

[Menalque]

There’s also this fact, and it is a fact: town don’t lynch lolhammers nearly as often as they should.

[Menalque]

In a situation where I’m scum:

I could have lolhammered.

I could have declared intent then lolhammered at any point later so long as the wagon was there.

I 100% could have lolhammered when my timer deadline ran out.

And there’s absolutely no reason for me to expect to be lynched in any of those cases. To expect pressure, yes, but not to expect being lynched. I’m always going to end up coming under pressure in this game because scum has the impression I’m a viable mislynch. They’re not wrong, as there are four people on me and a maximum of two of them can be scum.

I’ve been kind of disengaged since wimpy, so I haven’t been producing as much content as I would sometimes, and those are all things scum are going to see and think that I’m viable as the mislynch. Maybe I am, even, especially if one scum is still off and can get a quickhammer.

[Menalque]

Now, my dad’s visiting me, so I’m not going to be around like I would be/how I’d like to be, but I also haven’t even mislynched in D1 before as town and I’m not intending to start today especially when the grounds for my wagon are something as weak as me posting intent and then not hammering.

I’m gonna VOTE: icon because while I’ve been going back and forth on this, I don’t believe that he believed that me not hammering is enough of a reason to call me scum

[Menalque]

His ISO is damning. I just checked

nothing about aldu until post 973

973 puts aldu in scumpool (along with me and wicked) using POE basically
977 aldu NAI
982 same as 973
997 1st direct interaction with aldu
1025 asking pops about aldu
1033 .. non relevant stuff
1286 ... links old posts of 973 and 982 as reasonings for him wanting to hammer Aldu

I’m gonna need you to be explaining how this is in any way “damning”.

None of this explains why I wouldn’t want to hammer aldu, not why my not doing so is scummy.

[Menalque]

You posted intent when u had nothing other than POE for Adlu

Yes, and?

If I know there are 6 people other than myself who are town and I have 6 TRs then by default I’m SRing the remaining 2.

Why is this a less valid approach than looking for 2 outright actual SRs?

[Menalque]

i don't think ur scum for not hammering

The greater part of your argument recently has been all about my not hammering implying scum!me not wanting to be on the wrong side of a town flip

[Menalque]

i think ur scum for posting intent, threatening with a deadline, having no interest in sorting aldus, not hammering after your deadline despite not coming away with additional information for your PoE, and for not engaging with me when I asked about your reads. Not to mention you pushed Wimpy without the intention of sorting there.

Define how what I’ve been doing with aldus has not been sorting him, when I’ve very clearly explained how his reaction to my intent influenced my read on him, and i did get additional information from the very fact that he refused to claim

I pushed winpy while sorting there and am still unsure as to how good that was vs whether it was tunnelling

[Menalque]

in the meanwhile you can go ahead and claim

I don’t see an intent

[Menalque]

there was a little more to it, and aldu also pointed out that menal hammering puts him in a bad spot at the time (part of his argument that he didn't believe the intent)

Because at the time he was in PoE? And Mena even said before he's fine with lynching there? And there was a case that lit you sheeped?

Like why is it so unbelievable to think that the reaction to intent made him reconsider

so you think that:

'Scumalque: yo bro ur ima PoE you have 30 minutes before I hamma you'

'Alidus: ehh i'm good not claiming suck it lovecake'

'DragonBoi: ehhhh menal is gonna look preeeeeety bad if he lynches this and it flips town'



'Scumalque: aaight i'm good'

is town behaviour?

hammering/intent isn't about "getting things", it's about "lynch scum or don't lynch a PR"and if he felt that Aldu isn't scum then there's automatically no point in hammering?

only it actually is about getting things?

you say it yourself

lynch scum or don't lynch a PR

if he thinks aldu isn't scum why post intent in the first place?

He's gained nothing tho?

THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT

like, if ur town and you post intent on a slot

and that slot refuses to claim like a boss

and then you post a deadline

and then it still doesn't claim because???

you just… let it go?

for the record, no i'm not saying he should have lolhammered

i want you to recognize what he has gained from the intent

Fuck if I know, I'm not a mind reader.

come on datisi work with me here

why do you think he posted intent? like what are his possible motivations? you don't need to know it to answer this

there's literally like 2 options

get a claim

hammer

he got neither

he doesn't care

why

Thats what is supposed to happen? Instead of just hammering.

supposed to happen. just like aldus was supposed to claim, right?

so instead of just hammering, he posted intent.

but he got neither a claim, nor a hammer. and he could'nt care less.

why do you think Menalque declared intent to begin with?

There was a good case against him, others were agreeing with the case, some were calling for a flip because this day has been going on for a long ass time?

ok

so you are saying he posted intent to get a flip? to get aldus lynched?

actually that's @everyone not scumreading menal off of his intent show

@alim: why do you think Menalque declared intent to begin with?

Also Also Also
You want him to hammer
but you want to hang Mena because he didn't hammer
but if he hammers and it flips town you also want to hang Mena????

i didn't want mena to hammer? i only wanted a claim to get moving

in hindsight i think scum!menal had more reasons not to hammer then town!menal

and yes your third point is correct. and that's exactly the reason why I think scum!menal comes back on his intent -> survivalism

Lets say Mena is scum. He gets the hammer off, even if he gets lynched tomorrow as scum his scum buddy is probably very well hidden.

scum can't trade 1 town lynch for 1 scum lynch

if aldu is town, i doubt he's very high on the scum mislynch priority list

so yeah not really worth it for scum!menal I think

@Wicked, The problem with your case is that Mena had the ability to hammer Aldu. Even waited 30 mins and stuff - he could have gotten a 'free' hammer off as scum

Room temperature take

It'd have very negative consequences for Menalque's slot to lolhammer Alduskkel and the problem is only scum!Menalque would care

Its not a lol-hammer

He gave intent
He gave intent + 30 mins warning
Everyone was still posting in that time
He had a 'free' hammer after that 30 mins but didn't hammer.

ok so why don't you try and look at it from a different perspective

why do you think menal passed on that free hammer then? what's his motivation for doing so?

@Wicked, The problem with your case is that Mena had the ability to hammer Aldu. Even waited 30 mins and stuff - he could have gotten a 'free' hammer off as scum

Room temperature take

It'd have very negative consequences for Menalque's slot to lolhammer Alduskkel and the problem is

only scum!Menalque would care

this is exactly what i'm thinking

wickedjester is really scummy but also likable please send help

I am seeing scummy content but a towny tone...

Dang who knew this micro game would be so much effort to keep up with

Spoiler:

oh god not gifs how do you know my weakspot

I'm done responding to things tonight, I'll follow up with people tomorrow perhaps.

I haven't had enough time to push Menalque.

I

really

think people should consider voting Menalque with me today. I think I have a unique vantage point on his scum-meta right now seeing as I just watched him play for the last month with the knowledge that he was scum. His play here looks very similar.

Two quick points that I would like to make before I sleep:

1. I know that he strongly prefers town but his play here is not at all reminiscent of someone that is genuinely trying to scum-hunt or playing the alignment that they want to be playing.

• In this post from yesterday, he says that Alduskkel and I haven't done anything strongly alignment indicative yet he expresses intent to hammer both of us within the next few hours of writing this post: here and here. Town shouldn't be so easily willing to lynch their POE reads when we still have half the day left.
  
• If you will indulge my narcissism for a moment, he says at the beginning of the game that I'm one of the specific players he intended to get a read on and vote or sheep. And coming into this game, I would have expected him to want to interact with me. However, he has completely ignored me for most of the game. He has made no effort to determine my alignment or respond to my criticisms/questions to him. This feels really off to me, especially in combination with me voting for him and him being willing to hammer me so abruptly.
  
• It feels unnatural how he went from confidently scum reading Wimpy to now slowly backing off of that read now that pops has replaced in. I understand that he got angry at Wimpy and appreciate him admitting he crossed the line. But it feels like a convenient and intentional transition given that pops is either a more difficult mis-lynch or a stronger teammate for him if he's scum.

It feels like he's playing an uninvested scum game.


2. There are a number of specific posts that he's made that feel like they're intended to give the appearance of scum-hunting without actually having genuine intent. Two examples of this that immediately come to mind:

• Here he warns me that he expects more posting from me than in our previous game. It feels like him trying to give off the appearance that he's sorting me even though it would have been better for him to wait and see how active I actually turn out to be rather than instructing me preemptively like this.
  
• He repeatedly asks Ico to explain why he started townreading Mena even though Ico explained it. Ico literally responds by quoting previous posts and that's the end of the conversation. So it doesn't feel like Mena actually cared about this even though he asked multiple times. I feel like this is an attempt to earn townpoints by questioning the thing that scum-him would inherently want (people townreading him).

damn this is a good post. lemme get back to this soon

luca blight why are you voting with your scumread

Tempted to also do that actually. These last 2 days Wicked has towned it up...

@Wicked, The problem with your case is that Mena had the ability to hammer Aldu. Even waited 30 mins and stuff - he could have gotten a 'free' hammer off as scum

That's actually pretty convincing.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Menalque

What do you think about what I said about the hammer?

It doesn't seem likely you'll ever get content from emps, he is kind of always like this. He's signalling reasons he would be disengaged from this game that are valid as both alignments, but it will be hard to know which unless he does get engaged.

Um maybe he should replace out 2 days ago then? Seems unfair to stay in the game like this.

Only Menalque didn't have a 'free' hammer. Alu and myself reminded Menalque of this. He was literally in a crappy spot with his hammer. As scum, he would draw a LOT of attention if it flips town. As town, same story. Only town is uninformed and more likely to actually go through with said hammer. It was extremely scummy to back down on that threat.

Also I just disagree on emps. I think I can read that slot. I'm liking the tone, and there's posts out there suggesting he is interested in scumhunting. If he doesn't improve he will be an easy lynch later on, and his lynch today gives us very little information imo.

All of your posts about the hammer

[Menalque]

Datisi i think that’s a bad intent if you TR me but I’m VT

[Menalque]

i don't think ur scum for not hammering

The greater part of your argument recently has been all about my not hammering implying scum!me not wanting to be on the wrong side of a town flip

please don't cherry pick

So those are all of your posts arguing that the hammer situation is scummy/pushing me for that vs what I think are about two posts including the other points you made on this page

Go ahead and explain how that’s cherrypicking

[Menalque]

Lmaoooo I'm sorry I had to

Mena flips town stop this

ARE YOU BLIND

No, but mildly irritated that I’ve woken up to an L-1 wagon that is 100% scum motivated

So if it was a joke then, yes, I missed it

[Menalque]

good job you managed to quote my ISO

You mean the significant section of your ISO that demonstrates exactly how much of your push on me has been about my intent and then my not hammering when you’re claiming that saying that was the greater part of your push on me was me cherrypicking?

[Menalque]

No, but mildly irritated that I’ve woken up to an L-1 wagon that is 100% scum motivated

4 players on your wagon in a 9 player game calling you scum

how is that 100% scum motivated

Also, if I'm the 4th vote on the wagon, and you think I'm scum, who am I scum with? Because it has to be in the first 3 votes if you want it to be scum motivated.

Scum motivated isn’t necessarily who first voted it’s about how much scum is on it + who’s pushed it

And for what reasons they’ve pushed it

[Menalque]

I literally think Town!Wimpy has been forced into a corner by Menal, who used a semi-good early case but then just dicked Wimpy into this.

You can just reread Menal and see for yourself just how much of a [REDACTED BY ICONEUM] he's been and how he handled his scumread.

[Menalque]

I don’t think your progression makes sense icon

I think you’re forced to walk back your early on analysis of my case on wimpy in order to justify your arguments here

[Menalque]

Ffs my browser just crashed while I was halfway through a post on icon’s case

[Menalque]

I don’t think your progression makes sense icon

I think you’re forced to walk back your early on analysis of my case on wimpy in order to justify your arguments here

I don't think your progression on me makes sense either.

You are using scum motivated wagon as argument but I was the 4th vote and actually pretty reluctant to go there. And you are now skipping past my earlier questioning you on that?

Everything in 1598 doesn’t look like you being reluctant

Which earlier questioning?

[Menalque]

Datisi why do you TR icon at this point?

[Menalque]

So re: 1604 more briefly bc I cbf to rewrite what I lost when my browser crashed:

(1) you’ve literally quoted evidence of me sorting him? Like the fact that I started off from a slight scumlean based on his entrance doesn’t negate the fact that my questions about his datisi vote are very clear evidence of me sorting him

(2) the fact that I push him based on that is scum!indicative... how? I always end up pushing my SRs. Find a game where I don’t. You won’t because there isn’t, and everyone here who’s played with me knows me being aggressive and trying to get votes into someone is NAI

(3) you’re misrepping when you say I SR him for claiming data violated site rules — my literal response was “lol whut” and that didn’t really play into my SR on him

(4) was i an asshole to wimpy later who froze him out of the thread while pushing him? Yes. Was that antitown to do? Yes, even though I was legit SRing him based on what I still think is a contradiction in how he presented his views on datisi. Does that make me scum? Which is the most important question, and the answer is no, it doesn’t.

[Menalque]

@Menal, you argumented that your wagon is scum motivated and I asked you to go look at who actually pushed your wagon. Because it wasn't me. So I don't understand how you come to Scumconeum here.

You did push my wagon! You hammered the point over and over again that the fact that I didn’t follow through on my intent to hammer was soemthing more likely to come from scum!me! You actively tried to persuade people of this!

[Menalque]

Sorry. I'm bad at explaining TR's on you two. And when have the feeling that this is a TvT idiotic fight it annoys me.

Why do you think you had to keep pointing things out to him that didn’t make sense about his push on me if he’s making this push in good faith/considering the full range of evidence?

[Menalque]

VOTE: wicked

Willing to compromise here if you really believe that icon is town, dats

[Menalque]

Willing to compromise here

if you really believe that icon is town, dats

we both know i'm not the person whose reads you should be trusting

but ok

My issue is that I think icon’s push on me is v bad, and that’s one of my more effective scum catching methods (I find it easier to read when a push on me is bad than I do when a push on a neutral party is bad)

The problem is that every time icon gets called on it he kind of walks it back, and I’m struggling to decide if he is actually that good at being self-aware and can see that, or if he’s just worried because he knows that I’m good at spotting when pushes on me are bad and doesn’t wanna take the heat for seeing it through

[Menalque]

crap i'm doing the same thing to menal that he did to wimpy :s

I don’t like that he’s gone from here to “yeah mena/wicked makes sense” in all of about 2 seconds

[Menalque]

@menal

if you are still so sure your wagon was scum motivated where does that leave you on Ali?

I’m still equivocating on whether alim is newb!town or newb!scum

They make the most sense with you!scum or pops!scum imo

[Menalque]

so you just wanna keep your scumread on me while refusing to engage with me over the why?

fine

Ffs are you reading my posts icon

[Menalque]

Willing to compromise here

if you really believe that icon is town, dats

we both know i'm not the person whose reads you should be trusting

but ok

My issue is that I think icon’s push on me is v bad

, and that’s one of my more effective scum catching methods (I find it easier to read when a push on me is bad than I do when a push on a neutral party is bad)

The problem is that every time icon gets called on it he kind of walks it back, and

I’m struggling to decide if he is actually that good at being self-aware and can see that, or if he’s just worried because he knows that I’m good at spotting when pushes on me are bad and doesn’t wanna take the heat for seeing it through

[Menalque]

Like you’re not even trying to engage with me? The second I give you an inch of space or explain my thought process you throw it right back in my fucking face

How am I meant to TR you here?

[Menalque]

Where am I ignoring you

[Menalque]

I just answered your question about alim and explained why I’m conflicted on you because I can see your posts coming from wrong!town who’s self aware or agenda-d scum trying to mislynch me

[Menalque]

I’ve said very clearly that I don’t SR aldus anymore

[Menalque]

I still think the push on me comes from scum, at least one possibly both

If you’re not scum the main instigator was wicked

[Menalque]

Who has also been making bad claims, for instance about my play here being similar to C9++

[Menalque]

I still think the push on me comes from scum, at least one possibly both

If you’re not scum the main instigator was wicked

how the hell am i scum with wicked here?

For christsake IF YOU’RE NOT SCUM

[Menalque]

Dude that post literally says either or

[Menalque]

Driving my to Chamonix with my dad I’ll be on again later

[Menalque]

Pops!scum

[Menalque]

I was right all along, cool, that feels vindicating

[Menalque]

Both scum on my wagon, I’m p sure of that

[Menalque]

Sorry dats, I’m p sure you’re the NK here

[Menalque]

So pops is scum and there’s scum in

(Wicked, Luca, alim, icon)

Hmm

[Menalque]

Wicked is maybe the best shot there after pops? I think the hammer may have been protective as we were gonna compromise there

[Menalque]

Nah dude I’m town, like I said

[Menalque]

I think it was p obvious to anyone who knows me, which implies wicked/icon

[Menalque]

Luca’s limp on was p scummy and was making me reconsider

I actually think alim is the most likely to be town who fucked up on the wagon

[Menalque]

There’s literally no need for me to do this as scum

[Menalque]

So ideal lynch order is pops —> wicked —> Icon and that’s probably game

If needed, I’d say Luca > alim

If datisi is still alive in 5p you should all double check her associatives with pops/wimpy but she’s almost certainly conf!town here

[Menalque]

The fact that pops offered that justification for lynching me after going on about how I’ll become more readable as time goes on is a scumclaim tho

[Menalque]

As is her deafening silence now

[Menalque]

Wicked is either scum or town being hard setup, but as you have a scumclaim there’s no need to be paranoid about him being setup as lynching pops gives an extra day, so just lynch him after her and save yourselves the headache

[Menalque]

Aldu is basically conf town too

Emps is v v likely town

[Menalque]

I'm still catching up on the thread

Sure pops

[Menalque]

That hammer is literally a scumclaim for pops/wicked

Wicked might,

might

be a fall guy here but so long as you lynch pops first it’s golden

[Menalque]

Next two lynches are always pops —> wicked

If you’re town do this for me

After that, icon —> Luca and both scum should dedo be dead

[Menalque]

Ironic that I spent most of the game PoEing for scum, only to end up PoEing who the town are

[Menalque]

Nah, you scum claimed bc you knew I wasn’t getting lynched if you didn’t take the opportunity

[Menalque]

Pops:

Scum usually don't get strongly townread. If you identify Gambler's Fallacy in your thoughts you should take steps to extricate it.

I'm less likely than average to lynch Menalque D1 in any game because there's a high chance I course correct on him later.

This is less true about most players.

Also pops:

It says Plum's not online, so we should get a bit more discussion in.

I feel strongly about mechanical play, especially in micros where a getting the PRs to 3p or 5p can be very strong. Other people might not feel so strongly, I'm not going to wait for those people to unvote before Menalque sneaks back towards null.

So

I want to lynch the scummy claimed VT

VOTE: Menalque

[Menalque]

I think I need to step back from this game for a bit for my own good. Does anyone need me here for now?

Yes I need you to push pops tomorrow if you somehow get left alive for paranoia reasons despite being obvtown

[Menalque]

It’s a team game though, Pops. I wouldn’t have unvoted without good reason.

Luca do you disagree with my proposed lynch order?

[Menalque]

for now?

I guess not, no

See you in dead thread dats

[Menalque]

It seems crazy how you’d hammer before catching-up.

I was mostly caught up.

I didn't want people to have a chance to unvote

pedit: yes, I did lolhammer because I was concerned your lynch wouldn't go through.

You realise that absolutely no one is buying this as a move from town!you after how you went on about being able to read me successfully if you had enough time with me, right?

[Menalque]

Coupled with your sudden strong concern for mechanically correct play out of nowhere lmao

[Menalque]

Deadline is like 3 and a half days? We’re literally halfway through the game

[Menalque]

It’s a team game though, Pops. I wouldn’t have unvoted without good reason.

Luca do you disagree with my proposed lynch order?

I haven’t had time to fully digest what has happened, but my initial reaction is also to lynch Pops Tomorrow.

Wicked’s case still feels townie to me, though.

If I hadn’t been lynched I would have had time to explain why wicked’s case is perfectly plausible from scum!wicked and v much in line with his meta from C9++

[Menalque]

Coupled with your sudden strong concern for mechanically correct play out of nowhere lmao

Menalque wtf you watched me spend the entirety of AvP being anal retentive about extracting the maximum drops of value out of the fruit mechanic

It’s a team game though, Pops. I wouldn’t have unvoted without good reason.

I figured someone like alimdia might unvote.
I do feel a little bad about the undemocraticness and tyranny of a lolhammer, but at the same time with deadline somewhat near there is incidental undemocracy from, if we go to the next claim, and that claim is also VT, and I TR that slot more than I TR Menalque, it's possible the town as a whole agrees with me in that assessment, but there's too much V/LA and afk to safely move the votes back over to Menalque.

That's how I rationalize it, I'm sorry if it feels like a jerk move

pedit: wow many posts

It’s not a jerk move, it’s just scum opportunism knowing that if you didn’t lynch me today, and especially if I didn’t lynch scum you’d have to burn a NK on me

[Menalque]

Idk why that quoted both

[Menalque]

It’s a team game though, Pops. I wouldn’t have unvoted without good reason.

Luca do you disagree with my proposed lynch order?

I haven’t had time to fully digest what has happened, but my initial reaction is also to lynch Pops Tomorrow.

Wicked’s case still feels townie to me, though.

Also commit to the rest one way or another

The order should be pops —> wicked —> Icon —> you

If not, why not?

[Menalque]

It seems crazy how you’d hammer before catching-up.

I was mostly caught up.

I didn't want people to have a chance to unvote

pedit: yes, I did lolhammer because I was concerned your lynch wouldn't go through.

You realise that absolutely no one is buying this as a move from town!you after how you went on about being able to read me successfully if you had enough time with me, right?

The sane cop that doesn't get NKed because we didn't run him up and claim him/her out has better "reads" than I do. My ego has limits. Pretty tight ones, actually.

If there’s a cop in the game, if you or your scumbuddy don’t counterclaim them later on

[Menalque]

Pops unless you believe that in all micros the optimal strategy mechanically is “lynch the first wagon to reach L-1 regardless because otherwise you might get multiple claims and that’s bad mechanically” then you’re just scum

[Menalque]

Okay Luca so tell me who’s more likely to flip scum than any of the names in that list once obvscum!pops gets lynched

[Menalque]

How are any of emps/aldu/alim/dats more likely to

(1) flip scum at all than icon/wicked

(2) more likely to be partners with pops than icon/wicked?

[Menalque]

I would have greatly preferred you didn't claim VT at L-1 + obviously fake intent and let me read you D3, yes, but I'm sure you'll blame me instead of yourself in postgame

Well you already know I’m town because you share a scum pt with someone who isn’t me

[Menalque]

And again, I won’t blame you because you have a red role pm and eliminating me here when you had the opportunity was a solid move

If town let you live for it, then it was an excellent move, but they really shouldn’t

[Menalque]

What about the way that icon pushed conf!town today makes him town?

[Menalque]

Man, I’m still super fucking ashamed of how I treated wimpy this game

[Menalque]

Like I’m glad town won but I think for me personally at least this game will be marred by the personal stuff

[Menalque]

I’m gonna PM wimpy aside from this but I think this game was a major wake up call for me in terms of style of play and hopefully I’ll never revolve into doing that again

[Menalque]

Aside from that:

GG town, well played scum, and thank you to plum for modding

[Menalque]

I really really wish it hadn’t been needed, and I just realised that I should apologise to you too as it was you who was hosting

[Menalque]

How did you have a 5 page pt and still make yourself such an easy tonal read

[Menalque]

Emps man

You gotta post more as scum dude

[Menalque]

If datisi is scum here she’s literally destroyed her scumrange

Like wrapped it up, put it in a cannon, fired it into the sun levels of destroyed it

If she leads 2 mislynched at this point then hard defends scum in 5p lylo I’m still not voting for her in 3p lylo

This is adorable.

NAI, but adorable.

other news: i'm getting a bad feeling of scum!pops trying to break the PoE as much as possible.

idea: call literally everyone scum itt. Release it post game. "Hah you see i read you correctly in my PT." Profit.

Strong strategy tbf

Also I am adorable yes

[Menalque]

And I'd like to chat with Mena again. Is the Dead Thread spoilered? Is he sweating that I

just a tiny bit might

be scum here? Haha.

I mean...

Icon should die

I still would never lynch datisi here based on her D1 play

Like I would vote datisi in this game as often as I would vote wicked however stupid I may risk looking postgame

If datisi is scum here I may nom her for a scummy

Datisi is gonna have a fucking field day with this thread if she sees that I still didn’t believe she was scum even after RC told me because I’d rather assume I’m being trolled than believe she’s actually scum

...not exactly

[Menalque]

Datisi freaking out in pts continues to be one of my favourite forms of entertainment on mafiascum.net

(NB: apart from when she’s like genuinely upset when I then feel guilty about being entertained)

[Menalque]

I am finally at the point of feeling paranoid about dats even if she’s still town

Also I’m now getting paranoid that RC wasn’t trolling because I really feel like this good be scum drawing in the final vote

Ugh maybe RC wasn’t trolling I’m not convinced town!dats would be monitoring the thread this hard

AHEM

i fucking stay up all night to convince wicked to hammer icon
i write posts in my sleep
and what do i get in return

"OoOoOOo i'M nOt CoNvInCeD"

Ah shit i forgot to get those redacted

Okay but the paranoia came like super duper late at least

[Menalque]

I missed this but happy b day pops

[Menalque]

no notes on me or emps, Luca?

[Menalque]

Datisi's memes are the best

+1

[Menalque]

Nice work on the win fellas. Sorry I wasn't of much help, I couldn't convince other people to lynch emps haha.

People told me this after my first couple of games, so now I'll pass it along to you: while having good reads is important, being able to get your reads lynched is much more valuable

[Menalque]

I maintain that scum should always no kill there

[Menalque]

Also if I’m scum I think I no kill? But if I do kill I kill in (Luca, emps) because why would scum!me ever not kill outside of the bracket?

But realistically I no kill here like 80% of the time maybe more if I’m Luca!scum or dats!scum

So the very fact there is a NK implies emps imo

i'm not sure about that

if it's emps, he has to either kill datisi or no kill

because killing in your bracket means you are lynched

and if you no kill, then luca insta votes you and you have datisi who *probably* also votes you

if it's emps I think it's optimal to kill datisi, have a 1v1 with luca and go full wifom on Wicked who has the deciding vote

but what do i know, and that's only if it's actually emps

Nah man, I disagree

If you’re emps and you’re scum then you gotta act like you’ve been set up all game for the game winning mislynch

So for instance, in the case of emps!scum having to go against datisi or Luca, why would you ever kill Luca? Likewise, from dats!scun pov, who would she rather go against, emps or Luca? Probably emps. So you can argue that you’re in what is an optimal endgame for scum!dats but very clearly not an optimal endgame for scum!emps

Then you make some bullshit argument about PR distribution being off if you’re not the doc, and about how dats seemed a liiiiiittle too happy to vote icon for what weren’t super strong reasons and would have been game losing if she’d been wrong — argue that’s out of character for her and tmi-y

Then you play off wicked’s suspicions about her sitting back and playing along with the most popular nislynch choices, as well as her seemingly overconfident on my flip being town, plus me being someone she’d want to pocket

I think you’d have a better chance there than with Luca

I stand by this