Micro 904: Radja's Story Episode 1 - GAME OVER

[Enter]

No one was shot last night.

[Enter]

Hello, Amrun.

How do you feel about the no kill last night?

[Enter]

Link clicked.

[Enter]

Expecting a Micro Game to be slow in 2019 smh

[Enter]

Do you want to try to explain the no kill last night?

[Enter]

Greetings, Enter.

The no kill last night, your feelings on?

It was interesting. Did you notice who wasn't tracked?

[Enter]

@Enter, I don’t understand why there would be a kill on N0 or am I just not understanding the setup here?

Anyway, I think you asking about that, reads town indicative, so congrats, you’re my first townlean in this game. \o/

This is Nancy, if this isn’t already obvious.

And Bingle is tl Zenith for being jumpy.

What does this mean?

[Enter]

I have a read.

[Enter]

I have a read.

oh DO you now

Yes. Do you?

[Enter]

I have a read.

Let's hear it.

-Hectic

Instead, let's go around the room and say whether or not we have a read.

[Enter]

Could you all slow down with the posts? I'm playing 50 games simultaneously at the moment, so I'd really appreciate it if we could keep it to 10 posts a day. If there's any more than that, I suppose I could read every even post, and Billy could read every odd post.
@Billy: How does that sound? Speaking of sound, you've been suspiciously quiet recently. Got something to hide???

-Hectic

I think I could swing that. I can probably read the even ones too. Nothing to hide, just seeing if anyone's gonna offer us a buyout for early retirement. Been in this line of work too long.

Disappointed there's been no offers yet. Well, this is our last game before retirement, so it'd be a real shame if there were any tragic

accidents.

-Hectic

I'm really not sure what you're getting at here, with either part. Should I be?

I have a read.

Let's hear it.

-Hectic

Instead, let's go around the room and say whether or not we have a read.

I too, have a read.

-Hectic

Spicy. Pick someone new.

[Enter]

I have a read.

oh DO you now

Yes. Do you?

I do

it's on myself, but

I'll take this as a "no?"

[Enter]

Have you played with anyone here before?

[Enter]

Are you good at mafia?

[Enter]

Is anyone here good at mafia?

[Enter]

Are you good at mafia?

No, but Billy is. Once, it was just him and 2 scum left alive, and he managed to convince them to bus each other, and he cleaned up the remaining one in the night with his vig shot.
Are you?

-Hectic

I've had my good games and my bad ones.

[Enter]

I'm noticing a rather large quantity of seemingly pointless fluff.

Considering you seem to be one of the largest contributors, mind joining the game with the rest of us?

[Enter]

Are you good at mafia?

No, but Billy is. Once, it was just him and 2 scum left alive, and he managed to convince them to bus each other, and he cleaned up the remaining one in the night with his vig shot.
Are you?

-Hectic

I've had my good games and my bad ones.

Oh, wow. Me too!

-Hectic

How good was your best game?

[Enter]

Is anyone here good at mafia?

No.



Re: flavor claiming.

Like no it probably wouldn’t be a big deal either way, but it’s really unlikely to help the town, and has an off chance of hurting town. So let’s not. No one has made a viable argument for why it’s helpful.

You never fail to impress.
How are you doing on reads?

I think I have two right now, neither is particularly strong, however.

[Enter]

I'm noticing a rather large quantity of seemingly pointless fluff.

VOTE: Zenith

I did mean to do this, though.

Because this post is gross.



Uncrowned is my top pick for town. He seems to be vomiting whatever is on his mind, which is not well thought out. He’d probably think more first if scum.

I haven't been a fan of any of Zenith's posts so far. They seem very much more interested in trying to look like they're contributing than actually doing so.

I'm not sure how much I agree with you on uncrowned. I see the process you're using and I like it, I'm just a little uncertain ass to how well it applies to the person in question. That will be answered more in time, I think.

[Enter]

Enter, why are you playing so close to the chest?

I'm trying something new. I like how it worked for me in Perfect Masquerade and so I think I'll do it a bit longer.

I have a theory that this is at least slightly more optimal for several reasons (some that I won't discuss right now) but one of them is that it causes discussion to be slightly less tailored and scripted based on what players think others are thinking, and I think that makes people more uncomfortable and more likely to play with a little less mask.

[Enter]

Enter, why are you playing so close to the chest?

I'm trying something new. I like how it worked for me in Perfect Masquerade and so I think I'll do it a bit longer.

I have a theory that this is at least slightly more optimal for several reasons (some that I won't discuss right now) but one of them is that it causes discussion to be slightly less tailored and scripted based on what players think others are thinking, and I think that makes people more uncomfortable and more likely to play with a little less mask.

I didn’t read this game - were you town? Scum? Did you win?

We were town, and yes, we won.

[Enter]

Spoiler: @Zenith

I'm noticing a rather large quantity of seemingly pointless fluff.

Considering you seem to be one of the largest contributors, mind joining the game with the rest of us?

I'm not the one trolling the thread with posts about night 0 no kill or stories of 1 town winning vs 2 scum and such nonsense. If that's the kind of game you'd like to play, then no thanks, I'd rather not join in.

What's with this hostility lol

You get townpoints just for your sig. I'm biased here and don't care.

It irks me that i get accused of being one of the biggest contributors of fluff when other people are literally shitposting.. Like talking about unrelated games, claiming scum, and generally trolling nonsense..

I pointed out that fakeclaims are definitely a thing in response to suggestion that maybe there's some ambiguity there. Gave my 2 cents on the massclaim idea, and repeated myself about fakeclaims for sure being a thing, because ppl seem to either not be paying attention or straight up ignoring me. I'm not the one shitting on the thread for the luls here.

I mean, I just finished my first game where I happened to roll scum despite wanting to be town. So initially i was hyped for my first game as town. Yay I finally get to try scumhunting for reals! But then game starts and it's been like crawling through a sewer.. What am I supposed to do with all this turd? And then when I ask why there's a bunch of turd smeared on the walls, I get a stinky finger pointing at me and declaring me the poop bandit!

I'd rather not have to replace out, but the hype is completely gone, replaced by an awful stink.

You've made it very apparent that you're remarkably new and don't know what's going on, so I'm going to go easy on you for the first response. I appreciate that you seem to be trying hard, but if you think the claim discussion is getting anywhere, it isn't. The reason no one seriously responded to you was because (as you discovered by talking to yourself) the whole fake claim train of thought was silly and a dead end discussion that makes it look like you're adding content to the game while you're not - at least nothing worthwhile. It's disadvantageous for us to even approach discussion on the matter because it avoids anyone doing anything actually alignment indicative, as meta discussion is very easy to fake as scum.

Additionally, what I'm doing is not meaningless, nor is it fluff-posting. I'm not going to get into a whole lot it right now because I might make it slightly harder on myself if I do, but I'm very willing to talk about it post-game with you. I promise I'm trying just as hard as you are, I'm just more effective. Relax, play the game, and learn. No one is good at the start. As stated earlier, no one is good right now, and I've been playing since 2012.

[Enter]

I think its a town move by zenith to want to try and semi confirm at least 3 townies through that plan

Explain this in detail, please.

[Enter]

@Zenith - additionally, save that energy for later, you'll need it when the game gets more difficult. Make notes to yourself about what posts mean to you and your thoughts on them - it will help you get farther in depth on your reads. If you burn yourself out trying to make something happen in the first few days, you'll probably get shot night 1 and then not even care how the game ends (or maybe you will) and some lurker will be there in Lylo losing the game by lynching the player you knew was scum from the start. The game plays with time, it's not something you can pour effort into in a short burst and get immediate returns - it's a long term investment and you have to keep putting in, and honestly, it will usually take back more than it gives you.

[Enter]

@Uncrowned, I've looked at your post and I still don't understand how what you're trying to say about Zenith frames them as town, so I'm going to put what you're saying into practice for you, and if you could explain how that implies a town WINCON, I would be very grateful.

I think its a town move by zenith to want to try and semi confirm at least 3 townies through that plan

Explain this in detail, please.

Well first theyre limiting the amount of claims which lowers the probability of scum infiltrating with a fake flavor claim

In Practice:
9 Players. Every player has a claim on the list, none of which conflict.
Based on this plan, 3 players flavor claim. Scum are not in any worse of a position, because they still have their flavor claims that no town player has.
Assuming Victor is a power role, scum are, in fact, in a better position, because they know three town players that are not Victor, and have a higher likelihood of hitting Victor during the night. (Now instead of it being 1/7 chance, it's 1/4)
So this part of the plan is actually scum motivated.

Second thet seem weary of revealing a flavor that could be a PR (Victor) so that appears anti scum to me

Verbally announcing what an obvious scum play would be (assumptions continued from before) is not difficult for scum to do; I don't see how this frames Zenith in town at all.

Third i dont think theyd come up with that plan in detail which goes against the general vibe of this thread which has been "lets not flavor claim" why come up with that idea and put yourself under the microscope from people who dont want claims if youre scum?

Why would scum not want claims?

The summation of his argument that he finishes against himself is that scum DO want claims, or at least that's what it should have been. So by trying to discuss the game mechanically, the player seems to be looking for town points by posting content regularly that is game related but isn't difficult to post as scum (and even the strategy suggested is somewhat scum aligned, given the assumptions that Zenith makes).

None of this argument really provides solid reason that Zenith is really town aligned at all, except perhaps for the fact that the player is putting themselves under the microscope, but that's a play I'd really only give credit to a player for making if I believed the player was aware enough of how a mafia game plays out to know not to do that as scum, which Zenith has made it relatively obvious that he isn't, IMO.

[Enter]

How's the weather up there? Please don't throw the newb card down at me in dismissal.

Ironic how you try to dismiss everything as me "throwing a newb card at you" instead of responding in kind.

[Enter]

How's the weather up there? Please don't throw the newb card down at me in dismissal.

To be more clear - I'm not dismissing what you're doing because you're new, I'm telling you what you're doing is bad because what you're doing because it's bad and pushes a scum agenda.

Ironically, you took this moment to dismiss my post by calling it a dismissal - instead of reading it through in the slightest.

[Enter]

How's the weather up there? Please don't throw the newb card down at me in dismissal.

Ironic how you try to dismiss everything as me "throwing a newb card at you" instead of responding in kind.

And yet you continue to throw the newb card at me after I asked you not to. You keep making baseless assumptions about me. What did I dismiss? What specifically do you want me to respond to?

Quote me "throwing the newb card at you"

You dismissed my entire string of posts on why what you're doing is bad and why your stance on the game and the way other people are playing is bad as "throwing the newb card at you" - I merely said I wasn't going to be as harsh with you because your new.

[Enter]

Instead of talking about how your play has been scum-aligned, you're trying to avoid that discussion by saying I'm just calling you new, which I'm not. I'm saying the way you're playing and the things you're saying are bad.

[Enter]

@Enter Okay, I see your reasoning, I agree with most of that actually, I was looking at it more surface level like "if we can can somewhat confirm some town, it'll be easier to hit scum" but assuming Zenith is scum you're right, that does make it easier to hit a PR assuming that none of the partners are PRs.

I still think it's a brash thing to do and a bit reckless for a scum to go against the general train of thought going on in the thread, but I get why you'd think that's not what zenith is doing given the interactions between you two

I don't think there is a general train of thought for Zenith to go against here, unless you're seeing something different than me. He was the one to bring the subject up, as as far as I'm aware, nothing he's said has been particularly contrary to what other players have said previously.

[Enter]

What do you think of the motivations for people on you?

I predicted last game that I'm likely to be lynch bait in this game.
I'm an easy target and don't care. (This will be my meta and isn't AI, so deal with it.)

What is your meta? What are you even trying to get at here? You can't say "I'm a bad player and will be lynch bait every game." That's not how it works. Players that are lynch bait every game aren't lynch bait every game as part of their meta. They have something they do or a way they approach the game or a style of saying things that makes them lynch bait.

Probably a little OMGUS thrown in as well.
From my personal notes PT I requested in pre-game:

Amrun +1 / -0.5
Haggle (Hectic + Billy Pligrim) -1

Don't expect me to post a full reads list because it's highly unlikely to happen.

Why is my question scummy in your eyes?

Which question?

Quote me "throwing the newb card at you"

How about here:

You've made it very apparent that you're remarkably new and don't know what's going on, so I'm going to go easy on you for the first response.

That's not me dismissing you at all? That's just me telling you that I'm going to be less harsh because you're new.

And then again after I asked you not to here:

None of this argument really provides solid reason that Zenith is really town aligned at all, except perhaps for the fact that the player is putting themselves under the microscope, but that's a play I'd really only give credit to a player for making if I believed the player was aware enough of how a mafia game plays out to know not to do that as scum, which Zenith has made it relatively obvious that he isn't, IMO.

Not to mention the condescending tone in your last few posts hasn't exactly been subtle. Lot of blatant handholding going on there, and generally acting like I don't know how to wipe my ass.

That's you being bad, not you being new.

And if you play like you don't know how to wipe your ass, you're gonna be treated like it. If I don't feel like you'll understand me when I use big words, I won't use big words. It has nothing to do with your experience, it has everything to do with you complaining about your meta discussion not being taken more seriously, and when you did so, you did so like a child.

Nowhere in this post did I say it was because you were new, I said it was because your play this game has not displayed competence.

You dismissed my entire string of posts on why what you're doing is bad and why your stance on the game and the way other people are playing is bad as "throwing the newb card at you"

No I didn't. I've read everything you have said. You seem to like making assumptions, I wonder how conscious of them you are.

I'm very aware of my assumptions, I have no problem making assumptions and I don't run from them because they're usually very useful as well as on point. If you did read my post in it's entirety, either your comprehension of them was lacking and you failed to attempt to expand it, or you understood and responded in a way that displayed something to the opposite.

[Enter]

I get that it's easy to make assumptions about me, but I don't recommend it.

I made the assumption that you think you're something special that I haven't seen before, and so far I've been pretty spot on, as this post displays.

[Enter]

You spent the first couple pages of the game trying to frame claiming (a scum-oriented play) as a town oriented play (more discussion on this in previous posts, and I can go into more detail later if required), then whined when other players weren't discussing your bad ideas with you and claimed you were the only one trying instead of engaging people individually. Then when you were confronted about this, rather than changing your approach and attempting to play the game or responding to the person confronting you on why you think you're right, you decided to continue to whine about not being taken seriously. Finally, when the person confronting you full on explained to you why they disagreed (because you failed to present a counter-argument yourself or even show you understood why they opposed your standing) you complained that they were talking down to you and dismissing you. Do you not see how if you'd just done something different at any of those forks in the road, you wouldn't have reached this point? Do you not see that I'm explaining things to you because instead of you displaying an understanding yourself or presenting counter argument, you're trying to dismiss me and make indirect comments.

[Enter]

You spent the first couple pages of the game trying to frame claiming (a scum-oriented play) as a town oriented play (more discussion on this in previous posts, and I can go into more detail later if required), then whined when other players weren't discussing your bad ideas with you and claimed you were the only one trying instead of engaging people individually. Then when you were confronted about this, rather than changing your approach and attempting to play the game or responding to the person confronting you on why you think you're right, you decided to continue to whine about not being taken seriously. Finally, when the person confronting you full on explained to you why they disagreed (because you failed to present a counter-argument yourself or even show you understood why they opposed your standing) you complained that they were talking down to you and dismissing you. Do you not see how if you'd just done something different at any of those forks in the road, you wouldn't have reached this point? Do you not see that I'm explaining things to you because instead of you displaying an understanding yourself or presenting counter argument, you're trying to dismiss me and make indirect comments about how terrible your condition is and how people should accept your play as your new norm because it's not gonna change?

EBWOP

Also your whole thing about "accept that I'm lynchbait it's my meta" reads a whole lot like "I'm going to not try to get better or change how I play the game at all for you, I want you to try to change to accommodate me."

[Enter]

I get that it's easy to make assumptions about me, but I don't recommend it.

I made the assumption that you think you're something special that I haven't seen before, and so far I've been pretty spot on, as this post displays.

Good luck trying to figure me out. Wouldn't recommend it. I always open with the 8-8 on the 19x19 goban, because I can. Because I could care less about pre-existing metagame rules saying what is bad or good play. Ultimately everything in this game is wifom. Optimal play can duck itself when viable play can be more fun

Spoiler: lul

You have yet to do anything unpredictable. I wouldn't get too full of yourself yet.

[Enter]

It has everything to do with you complaining about your meta discussion not being taken more seriously

Yea, i don't recall doing that.

If only failing to recall things made them not true.

and so far I've been pretty spot on

I doubt your many assumptions could be more off base. You've made a lot of them, but I don't really feel like listing them all. Doesn't seem productive.

It's always hard to list facts that don't exist.

Also your whole thing about "accept that I'm lynchbait it's my meta" reads a whole lot like "I'm going to not try to get better or change how I play the game at all for you, I want you to try to change to accommodate me."

More like, I intend to evolve and improve over time, but duck this game's meta / ideas about optimal play. I'm going to be me and you're free to react to that however you want.

What was the point of saying anything in the first place?

I mean I'm not going to argue against math, and I'll hear out people's opinions on things, but I'm not going to follow some guide on how to be some boring cookie cutter player. More fun to figure things out via experience and come to my own conclusions without compromising my identity.

Nice. We don't disagree here.

You have yet to do anything unpredictable. I wouldn't get too full of yourself yet.

What makes you assume i would want to be unpredictable?

Perhaps I merely want to be exactly what I am.

You said good luck trying to figure me out. And I'm saying that nothing you've done has been even slightly difficult to figure out. I'd prefer it if you were just what you were, and didn't complain about other people reacting to you being you - because those people are just being themselves as well. Funnily enough, I was fine to let you play until you started saying the way other people were playing was annoying to you.

[Enter]

You: Please let me just play how I want to play, I don't care about optimal or good play, I just wanna play like me
You: Why isn't anyone playing the way I want them to play? I'm the only one trying here and it sucks!

You: You won't figure me out, Enter!
You: Why do you think I don't want to be figured out, Enter?

[Enter]

It has everything to do with you complaining about your meta discussion not being taken more seriously

Yea, i don't recall doing that.

If only failing to recall things made them not true.

If only you had some evidence to back your assertions.
Please, bring it. If you can. Which you can't, because it never happened.

Except I can, because it did.

Since people seem to have ignored my earlier post..

I'm noticing a rather large quantity of seemingly pointless fluff.

It irks me that i get accused of being one of the biggest contributors of fluff when other people are literally shitposting.. Like talking about unrelated games, claiming scum, and generally trolling nonsense..

I pointed out that fakeclaims are definitely a thing in response to suggestion that maybe there's some ambiguity there. Gave my 2 cents on the massclaim idea, and repeated myself about fakeclaims for sure being a thing, because ppl seem to either not be paying attention or straight up ignoring me. I'm not the one shitting on the thread for the luls here.

and so far I've been pretty spot on

I doubt your many assumptions could be more off base. You've made a lot of them, but I don't really feel like listing them all. Doesn't seem productive.

It's always hard to list facts that don't exist.

Agreed, but not difficult to make a list of your assumptions if I wanted to. I don't. We could go down that route if you truly insist, but I don't see the point. Specially considering you have admitted to making assumptions.

Funny how you ask me for evidence and then fail to provide your own, consistent with your inconsistency. Seriously though, please point out just three for me, since the list is so long.

Btw, you're welcome to continue doing whatever you want, but I'd prefer to wrap up this back and forth soon. I've already gotten what I wanted from it, and advanced some reads, but it's about time for me to move on. FYI, I'm getting tvt vibes here.

I also enjoy the pastime of incessantly contradicting myself and then trying to call myself town afterwards while simultaneously attempting to sate and blind my rival by calling him town.

[Enter]

Spoiler: misrep

You:

Please let me just play how I want to play

,

I don't care about optimal or good play

I don't care about consensus opinion of what is good/bad play

, I

just wanna play

will be playing

like me
You:

Why isn't anyone playing the way I want them to play? I'm the only one trying here and it sucks!

You:

You won't figure me out, Enter!

I wished you good luck in figuring me out. I doubt you'll ever be fully aware of what's going on in my head, but if you read me as town this game then you'd be correct about that much.

You: Why do you

think I don't want to be figured out

keep making assumptions about me

, Enter?

I mean, I'm right here. You could make assumptions about me or instead maybe you could ask me a question. So as an example maybe instead of assuming I don't take notes by instructing me to take notes, you could have asked if I take notes, and then i could have answered that I do take notes, and you would have learned the answer instead of jumping to an incorrect conclusion. Just a suggestion, not telling you what to do or how to play.

You rephrasing what I said in different words doesn't make it a misrep.

Except I can, because it did.

Put up or shut up?

Yes, this is what I've been saying.

Funny how you ask me for evidence and then fail to provide your own, consistent with your inconsistency. Seriously though, please point out just three for me, since the list is so long.

Isn't that what you are doing? And I already mentioned that you admitted to making assumptions.

You seem to think that assumptions are anything different from deductions, and you seem to be stuck viewing them in a negative light. I don't think I've ever argued whether or not I'm making assumptions, merely whether or not any of them are baseless.

I get that it's easy to make assumptions about me, but I don't recommend it.

I made the assumption that you think you're something special that I haven't seen before, and so far I've been pretty spot on, as this post displays.

If you want to try to claim that you haven't been making assumptions about me, well that would seem pretty ridiculous to me.

First, I have never tried to say I'm not making assumptions about you. I've only said that none of them have been wrong. In addition, you didn't even quote any assumptions I made in the thread, much less ones that have been off-base as you claim.

But now that you insist on digging this whole deeper, please quote me trying to say that I don't make assumptions about you.

In post #109 you assume that I'm, "remarkably new and don't know what's going on"

I don't assume that, you said in this post here that you were new:

I mean, I just finished my first game where I happened to roll scum despite wanting to be town. So initially i was hyped for my first game as town. Yay I finally get to try scumhunting for reals! But then game starts and it's been like crawling through a sewer.. What am I supposed to do with all this turd? And then when I ask why there's a bunch of turd smeared on the walls, I get a stinky finger pointing at me and declaring me the poop bandit!

I'd rather not have to replace out, but the hype is completely gone, replaced by an awful stink.

Which leads you to putting on your IC hat and explaining basic shit without being asked, as if we were on the road to Rome. It doesn't really make sense to start explaining things to someone if you think they already know the things you are trying to explain.

No, what leads me to putting on my IC hat is you failing to understand the first time I say something. That was when I realized that I needed to explain in more detail.

If you already knew what I was trying to explain, why didn't you respond as such?

In post #119 you assumed I dismissed a string of your posts, and assumed reasoning for that assumption:

No, I didn't assume you dismissed my string of posts. You dismissed my string of posts here:

How's the weather up there? Please don't throw the newb card down at me in dismissal.

Instead of responding to them.

This isn't an assumption at all.

Is that enough to satisfy you? May I stop listing your assumptions now?

Given you didn't even point out any assumptions, much less assumptions that were incorrect, no, I'm not satisfied. Stop trying to defend your ignorance. It looks silly.

Could you quote where I was, "complaining about your meta discussion not being taken more seriously" now?

I did.

Also, please stop misrepping me to make yourself look less like an idiot.

[Enter]

*hole

[Enter]

[Enter]

VOTE: Zenith

[Enter]

Yea like.. I don't even know where to begin unpacking that last post. Much easier to invoke Poe's law and move on. Plus we've made a pretty big mess to the point where continuing to clog the thread would likely be anti-town at best.

Having difficulty admitting you've been talking out of your rear the whole time != invoking Poe's law.

I have never seen someone hold so tightly to such blatantly false statements, and your excuses would be comical if I wasn't directly involved in the situation.

[Enter]

Yea like.. I don't even know where to begin unpacking that last post. Much easier to invoke Poe's law and move on. Plus we've made a pretty big mess to the point where continuing to clog the thread would likely be anti-town at best.

You even contradict yourself in this post:

If you legitimately believed there was anything to unpack (as you imply in the first half of this post) there would be no reason to invoke Poe's law (implying there is nothing to unpack as everything I've said facetiously means quite the contrary and I'm actually agreeing with you) as you state in the second half.

In addition, if you legitimately cared about clogging the thread and weren't trying to get the last word without saying anything at all, you wouldn't have made the comment about Poe's law twice.

[Enter]

Let's actually look at what you claimed was a misrep in exact quotes, because it's actually kinda funny to me how much you attempt to outright deny things you did only a few hours ago:

Spoiler: Posts about how no one will figure you out

Good luck trying to figure me out. Wouldn't recommend it. I always open with the 8-8 on the 19x19 goban, because I can. Because I could care less about pre-existing metagame rules saying what is bad or good play. Ultimately everything in this game is wifom. Optimal play can duck itself when viable play can be more fun

I get that it's easy to make assumptions about me, but I don't recommend it.

Spoiler: Posts about how you don't care if people figure you out

What makes you assume i would want to be unpredictable?

Perhaps I merely want to be exactly what I am.

Spoiler: Posts complaining about how other people play

I'm not the one trolling the thread with posts about night 0 no kill or stories of 1 town winning vs 2 scum and such nonsense. If that's the kind of game you'd like to play, then no thanks, I'd rather not join in.

I'm noticing a rather large quantity of seemingly pointless fluff.

Claiming scum is almost never a good idea. Even jokingly. This irritates me.

It irks me that i get accused of being one of the biggest contributors of fluff when other people are literally shitposting.. Like talking about unrelated games, claiming scum, and generally trolling nonsense..

I pointed out that fakeclaims are definitely a thing in response to suggestion that maybe there's some ambiguity there. Gave my 2 cents on the massclaim idea, and repeated myself about fakeclaims for sure being a thing, because ppl seem to either not be paying attention or straight up ignoring me. I'm not the one shitting on the thread for the luls here.

I mean, I just finished my first game where I happened to roll scum despite wanting to be town. So initially i was hyped for my first game as town. Yay I finally get to try scumhunting for reals! But then game starts and it's been like crawling through a sewer.. What am I supposed to do with all this turd? And then when I ask why there's a bunch of turd smeared on the walls, I get a stinky finger pointing at me and declaring me the poop bandit!

I'd rather not have to replace out, but the hype is completely gone, replaced by an awful stink.

Spoiler: Posts talking about how you're going to play however you want regardless of what others say

More like, I intend to evolve and improve over time, but duck this game's meta / ideas about optimal play. I'm going to be me and you're free to react to that however you want.

I mean I'm not going to argue against math, and I'll hear out people's opinions on things, but I'm not going to follow some guide on how to be some boring cookie cutter player. More fun to figure things out via experience and come to my own conclusions without compromising my identity.

Wow, it's almost like I didn't misrep you at all.

[Enter]

quote where I was, "complaining about your meta discussion not being taken more seriously"

What happened to Poe's Law?

[Enter]

Since people seem to have ignored my earlier post..

[Continues with meta discussion]

I'm noticing a rather large quantity of seemingly pointless fluff.

It irks me that i get accused of being one of the biggest contributors of fluff when other people are literally shitposting.. Like talking about unrelated games, claiming scum, and generally trolling nonsense..

I pointed out that fakeclaims are definitely a thing in response to suggestion that maybe there's some ambiguity there. Gave my 2 cents on the massclaim idea, and repeated myself about fakeclaims for sure being a thing, because ppl seem to either not be paying attention or straight up ignoring me. I'm not the one shitting on the thread for the luls here.

[Enter]

Ignoring that I have done so twice now doesn't make it go away.

[Enter]

Wait, maybe if I explain more, that will help. I was trying to avoid getting to this phase so I wouldn't have to deal with you trying to say I'm talking down to you again, but since you insist:

Since people seem to have ignored my earlier post..

[Continues with meta discussion]

I'm noticing a rather large quantity of seemingly pointless fluff.

It irks me that i get accused of being one of the biggest contributors of fluff when other people are literally shitposting.. Like talking about unrelated games, claiming scum, and generally trolling nonsense..

I pointed out that fakeclaims are definitely a thing in response to suggestion that maybe there's some ambiguity there. Gave my 2 cents on the massclaim idea, and repeated myself about fakeclaims for sure being a thing, because ppl seem to either not be paying attention or straight up ignoring me. I'm not the one shitting on the thread for the luls here.

In the first post, you complain about people not taking your meta discussion more seriously by remarking that you were ignored and restating with the hope that someone, in fact, will take you seriously

In the second quote, you remark that, in contrast to talking about your meta discussion, which, at this point, is just about the only thing you've talked about thus far, people are talking about other things.

In the third quote, you note that you are frustrated that your meta discussion is being considered fluff while other people are not talking about your meta discussion at all. You go on to explain that you have pointed out what you felt was interesting on the topic, that you have repeated yourself on the topic, and still people continue to not take you seriously by ignoring you, and point out, that in contrast, players are talking about other things.

[Enter]

Post 70 was me restating the fact that there are fakeclaims, for the people who at the time seemed to not realize that it is a fact that there are fake claims.

And complaining that people were ignoring your initial statement. That's what remarking on other people ignoring it is - A complaint. Call it something else, I'll change my statement to "remarking that other people aren't taking your meta discussion seriously." Either way it means the same thing. I really don't care how you put it here.

Post 84 was an observation which had nothing to do with anything other than noticing all the fluff and shitposting.

Which looks an awful lot like complaining, in context. What would you prefer they talk about, one might ask themselves? Well to answer that question, one must only look at your posts - game meta is the only thing you've really talked about this far, and you've already commented on being ignored. Seems pretty obvious what this post is to me, no matter how you try to frame it now.

Out of the 3, post 101 is the only complaint, and I was complaining about being falsely accused of being among the biggest contributors of fluff posting when other people were literally shitposting, which I followed up with a brief recap of my activity up to that point.

Yes. Which you followed up with a brief recap of your activity up to that point (meta discussion) and complain that you've been ignored. LOL.

Please quote where I was, "complaining about your meta discussion not being taken more seriously".

Do you want to rephrase it so that it makes you feel better?

[Enter]

So what you're trying to say is that throughout this whole process you were coolheaded -- you didn't care that no one was engaging you or responding to your posts? That the idea that you're irked or annoyed is me reading into it too much - you're really only annoyed that players are... what? What would you have considered not fluff-posting that was also not engaging you in your meta discussion?

Spoiler:

Flavor likely is relevant to role. I’m against it.

May you enlighten me, mate, how claiming name and partner may make our roles a public knowledge?

Occupation: cop

Just look right at the opening post.

I’m not for introducing that type of WIFOM for scum to pick off our PRs.

Isn't everyone other than the scum a cop in this game? But yea, Victor stands out as the only person without a partner. If I were scum, without a better option presenting itself, I'd probably NK Victor after a massclaim, assuming Victor isn't scum. Maybe it would be for the best to save the mass flavor claim option for another day.


Since people seem to have ignored my earlier post..
Chuck Porter and Tom Park scum, leaving:
1. Victor Garner
2. Ashley Williams ~ 3. Michelle Stuart
4. Jack Turner ~ 5. Trevor Price
6. Lewis Robson ~ 7. Chet Gray
8. Asuka Tagawa ~ 9. Luke Jameson

9 players and 9 town flavor names means scum

definitely

have safe flavor claims.

I'm noticing a rather large quantity of seemingly pointless fluff.

No one was shot last night.

I can confirm this. Billy and I very privy to the scumchat last night, and they decided to no-kill to add to the confusion.
We'd reveal who the scum were, but we are willing to... negotiate under certain terms.

Offer us early retirement, and perhaps we won't out you.

Claiming scum is almost never a good idea. Even jokingly. This irritates me.

What's with this hostility lol

You get townpoints just for your sig. I'm biased here and don't care.

It irks me that i get accused of being one of the biggest contributors of fluff when other people are literally shitposting.. Like talking about unrelated games, claiming scum, and generally trolling nonsense..

I pointed out that fakeclaims are definitely a thing in response to suggestion that maybe there's some ambiguity there. Gave my 2 cents on the massclaim idea, and repeated myself about fakeclaims for sure being a thing, because ppl seem to either not be paying attention or straight up ignoring me. I'm not the one shitting on the thread for the luls here.

I mean, I just finished my first game where I happened to roll scum despite wanting to be town. So initially i was hyped for my first game as town. Yay I finally get to try scumhunting for reals! But then game starts and it's been like crawling through a sewer.. What am I supposed to do with all this turd? And then when I ask why there's a bunch of turd smeared on the walls, I get a stinky finger pointing at me and declaring me the poop bandit!

I'd rather not have to replace out, but the hype is completely gone, replaced by an awful stink.

[Enter]

None of the quoted posts display frustration that players have not yet engaged you on the topic that you've brought up innumerable times now, and you are bringing up the same topic repeatedly because it gives you pleasure to talk to yourself in the thread?

[Enter]

None of the quoted posts display frustration that players have not yet engaged you on the topic that you've brought up innumerable times now, and you are bringing up the same topic repeatedly because it gives you pleasure to talk to yourself in the thread?

Obviously this isn't it, but help me understand. Help me put all the puzzle pieces back together, then, in a way that makes sense.

[Enter]

You threatened to replace out and you're telling me that that isn't strong emotion.

I actually don't understand how you can so boldly stand in such stark contrast to yourself while holding stubbornly that you do not.

[Enter]

It has nothing to do with your experience, it has everything to do with you complaining about your meta discussion not being taken more seriously, and when you did so, you did so like a child.

I don't care about the meta discussion all that much as far as this is concerned; Did you or did you not threaten to replace out due to the state of the game?

[Enter]

I have a read.

Let's hear it.

-Hectic

Instead, let's go around the room and say whether or not we have a read.

I do
You’re scum.
What’s the point of this?

Create discussion and get a sense of where players are on the game. What else would be the point?

[Enter]

I'm noticing a rather large quantity of seemingly pointless fluff.

Considering you seem to be one of the largest contributors, mind joining the game with the rest of us?

The crow calls the raven black I see

You literally just quoted a post of mine crafted to generate discussion, and I'm actively pursuing players, coming out of RVS not entirely sure what you expect?

I have a read.

Let's hear it.

-Hectic

Instead, let's go around the room and say whether or not we have a read.

I do
You’re scum.
What’s the point of this?

Create discussion and get a sense of where players are on the game. What else would be the point?

Looking like you are doing something
Like that’s the sense the majority of your posting gives me so far

Funny, it was intended to make you feel the opposite way about it. That said, I've done an awful lot for only looking like it, I think. It's RVS, though, or close enough for it to count. Drop a vote.

[Enter]

You threatened to replace out and you're telling me that that isn't strong emotion.

I actually don't understand how you can so boldly stand in such stark contrast to yourself while holding stubbornly that you do not.

Lol wow.. So much misinterpretation!
I didn't threaten to replace out...
I was describing my state as specifically not being to the level of replacing. In a post mentioning crawling through a sewer and poop smeared walls.

This is not a threat to replace out:

I'd rather not have to replace out, but the hype is completely gone, replaced by an awful stink.

Got it.

[Enter]

Gamma from what I remember of playing with you, you usually only give direct reactions to posts, at least in your catch up. I would very much like to hear your thoughts on general game state and how you see the game moving forward when you get a chance, though

[Enter]

Alright I feel a lot better about Zenith town.

[Enter]

UNVOTE: Zenith

Why publicly coach him?

[Enter]

I'm going to strangle myself to death.

[Enter]

Alright I feel a lot better about Zenith town.

I may have spoken too soon here. Another reason I am more hesitant to share where I'm at at all times - it helps prevent vertigo and allows me to be confident when I out a read.

I do want to say that the more I think about it, the more I think that I would expect Gammas vote to be on me right now if Gamma was town - the hesitation seems pretty scum aligned, but my gut doesn't find this particularly interesting sat all and I'm really not too sure what to make of it

[Enter]

Alright I feel a lot better about Zenith town.

I may have spoken too soon here. Another reason I am more hesitant to share where I'm at at all times - it helps prevent vertigo and allows me to be confident when I out a read.

I do want to say that the more I think about it, the more I think that I would expect Gammas vote to be on me right now if Gamma was town - the hesitation seems pretty scum aligned, but my gut doesn't find this particularly interesting sat all and I'm really not too sure what to make of it

Why are you having doubts on Zenith again?

-Hectic

I didn't really stop having doubts, I just had a moment where I didn't think he was as scummy as I had previously considered.

[Enter]

I'm noticing a rather large quantity of seemingly pointless fluff.

Considering you seem to be one of the largest contributors, mind joining the game with the rest of us?

The crow calls the raven black I see

I'll be the first to admit that I've had shitty posts since then, but that was after being exposed to the shit smeared walls. Plus alcohol from turkey day. And this Enter person drawing me into a shit hole. I try to climb out and get pulled back in.

Also the post immediately after this seems needlessly dramatic

I do not disagree. It was over the top and reaction fishing.

So what’s special about Lewis?

Lewis is my partner, and I outed myself as Chet in my first post without really thinking about it.

I like this response, and I saw it earlier which is why I’m voting Enter rn
I’d vaguely sussed out your connection to Lewis tbh, but it’s good for you to air it publicly

Why? What did you like about it?

[Enter]

I’d ask what reaction you got from that post too but iirc most of the game is you vs. Enter

Wait -- Zenith's post, which you both agree is bad and over the top (i'm almost certain he doesn't mean reaction fishing in the way you're trying to twist it) is excusable and you're treating him like town

but I've had multiple posts this game that are intentionally lynch-baity and reaction fishing but I'm scum for them?

Please explain

I have a read.

Let's hear it.

-Hectic

Instead, let's go around the room and say whether or not we have a read.

I do
You’re scum.
What’s the point of this?

I agree, but why isnt your vote there. To pre-empt the obvious question, (I dont move votes as my head in a hydra until I clear it with my other head.)

Well I wanted to read fully in case a better vote came + poking it first felt like the better play.

But you haven't read all the way up yet. It just depends on how you're feeling that day, I guess?

[Enter]

UNVOTE: Zenith

Why publicly coach him?

The way you’re dressing it feels like distancing with the condescension
Though ofc I think he’s a fair amount townier now

You're scum reading me based on my association with Zenith?

[Enter]

Nancy, Jingle, where are you at so far on Zenith/GE?

[Enter]

Like the post you made right before I called you a Poe?

No.

[Enter]

Pretty sure it's been established that you called me a Poe to avoid having to respond to legitimate claims against you.

[Enter]

Dragging me back into the shit hole.. Why?? I responded by calling you a poe because you barfed a fuckin wall of derp and misery at me.. Clearly you want to make a mess and be an antitown troll.
VOTE: Enter

I'm starting to think you're legitimately not understanding what I'm saying, because I skimmed this before I went through it and I don't know how you can manage to so repeatedly respond in such a way that misses the the point entirely without not knowing a word of what you're saying or responding to.

Let's go, though.

Spoiler: misrep

You:

Please let me just play how I want to play

,

I don't care about optimal or good play

I don't care about consensus opinion of what is good/bad play

, I

just wanna play

will be playing

like me
You:

Why isn't anyone playing the way I want them to play? I'm the only one trying here and it sucks!

You:

You won't figure me out, Enter!

I wished you good luck in figuring me out. I doubt you'll ever be fully aware of what's going on in my head, but if you read me as town this game then you'd be correct about that much.

You: Why do you

think I don't want to be figured out

keep making assumptions about me

, Enter?

I mean, I'm right here. You could make assumptions about me or instead maybe you could ask me a question. So as an example maybe instead of assuming I don't take notes by instructing me to take notes, you could have asked if I take notes, and then i could have answered that I do take notes, and you would have learned the answer instead of jumping to an incorrect conclusion. Just a suggestion, not telling you what to do or how to play.

You rephrasing what I said in different words doesn't make it a misrep.

~You rephrasing my words and meanings into things I never meant and never said, straight up putting words into my mouth just to fit your fabricated narrative, is misrepping me...

Thankfully, that's not what I did, I have quotes to prove it!

Let's actually look at what you claimed was a misrep in exact quotes, because it's actually kinda funny to me how much you attempt to outright deny things you did only a few hours ago:

Spoiler: Posts about how no one will figure you out

Good luck trying to figure me out. Wouldn't recommend it. I always open with the 8-8 on the 19x19 goban, because I can. Because I could care less about pre-existing metagame rules saying what is bad or good play. Ultimately everything in this game is wifom. Optimal play can duck itself when viable play can be more fun

I get that it's easy to make assumptions about me, but I don't recommend it.

Spoiler: Posts about how you don't care if people figure you out

What makes you assume i would want to be unpredictable?

Perhaps I merely want to be exactly what I am.

Spoiler: Posts complaining about how other people play

I'm not the one trolling the thread with posts about night 0 no kill or stories of 1 town winning vs 2 scum and such nonsense. If that's the kind of game you'd like to play, then no thanks, I'd rather not join in.

I'm noticing a rather large quantity of seemingly pointless fluff.

Claiming scum is almost never a good idea. Even jokingly. This irritates me.

It irks me that i get accused of being one of the biggest contributors of fluff when other people are literally shitposting.. Like talking about unrelated games, claiming scum, and generally trolling nonsense..

I pointed out that fakeclaims are definitely a thing in response to suggestion that maybe there's some ambiguity there. Gave my 2 cents on the massclaim idea, and repeated myself about fakeclaims for sure being a thing, because ppl seem to either not be paying attention or straight up ignoring me. I'm not the one shitting on the thread for the luls here.

I mean, I just finished my first game where I happened to roll scum despite wanting to be town. So initially i was hyped for my first game as town. Yay I finally get to try scumhunting for reals! But then game starts and it's been like crawling through a sewer.. What am I supposed to do with all this turd? And then when I ask why there's a bunch of turd smeared on the walls, I get a stinky finger pointing at me and declaring me the poop bandit!

I'd rather not have to replace out, but the hype is completely gone, replaced by an awful stink.

Spoiler: Posts talking about how you're going to play however you want regardless of what others say

More like, I intend to evolve and improve over time, but duck this game's meta / ideas about optimal play. I'm going to be me and you're free to react to that however you want.

I mean I'm not going to argue against math, and I'll hear out people's opinions on things, but I'm not going to follow some guide on how to be some boring cookie cutter player. More fun to figure things out via experience and come to my own conclusions without compromising my identity.

Wow, it's almost like I didn't misrep you at all.

Still surprised by your ability to completely deny things that haven't even happened all that long ago and then insist on it when confronted with the evidence.

Except I can, because it did.

Put up or shut up?

Yes, this is what I've been saying.

~And i quoted you making you assumptions, you still haven't quoted me "complaining about your meta discussion not being taken more seriously".

Assumption:
a thing that is accepted as true or as certain to happen, without proof.

Nope. Haven't quoted any assumptions yet.

And we definitely went over the whole discussion of whether or not you were complaining earlier today instead of addressing the issue at hand, rephrase that however makes you feel better about yourself.

Funny how you ask me for evidence and then fail to provide your own, consistent with your inconsistency. Seriously though, please point out just three for me, since the list is so long.

Isn't that what you are doing? And I already mentioned that you admitted to making assumptions.

You seem to think that assumptions are anything different from deductions, and you seem to be stuck viewing them in a negative light. I don't think I've ever argued whether or not I'm making assumptions, merely whether or not any of them are baseless.

~You can play derpy semantics games all you want but you've made a bunch of assumptions and have admitted to it more than once.

Yes, I have made multiple assumptions, I've admitted to it more than once -please quote me trying to deny that I have made assumptions?
That said, I've posted a very very small few of them in the game thread, only one of which, at least as far as I can think of, is about you. In addition, you continue to try to frame this poorly, which it is quite simply you just buying into the connotation of the word without understanding the meaning behind it, whether intentionally or unintentionally. Stop telling me I'm saying things I'm not and then arguing against arguments I'm not making. It's not getting you very far.

I get that it's easy to make assumptions about me, but I don't recommend it.

I made the assumption that you think you're something special that I haven't seen before, and so far I've been pretty spot on, as this post displays.

If you want to try to claim that you haven't been making assumptions about me, well that would seem pretty ridiculous to me.

First, I have never tried to say I'm not making assumptions about you. I've only said that none of them have been wrong. In addition, you didn't even quote any assumptions I made in the thread, much less ones that have been off-base as you claim.

But now that you insist on digging this whole deeper, please quote me trying to say that I don't make assumptions about you.

~No fuggin shit.. I accused you of making assumptions about you.

I think this is a mistype, but I don't see where I made assumptions about myself?

You tell me to quote 3 assumptions you've made.

Close enough to true that we'll ignore it as long as you don't try to twist it again.

You've admitted to making assumptions.

Yes. You seem to keep trying to bring this up to frame me as doing something bad and I don't know why.

You say you never said your not making assumptions about me.

Yes. This doesn't conflict with the previous statement.

when i call you out for making assumptions about me you tell me to fuckin prove it by quoting you

No.

STOP misrepping things so that you look less terrible:

and so far I've been pretty spot on

I doubt your many assumptions could be more off base. You've made a lot of them, but I don't really feel like listing them all. Doesn't seem productive.

You accused me of assumptions that are OFF BASE.

I told you to quote three times I've made OFF BASE assumptions.

do it 3 times bt you never not didnt make no claim about never making not assumptions because derp derp DERP DEEEERRRRPDERPADERPADERPADERPADERAPAJDHSKDIBEIFJENFINBDHDSBICBJDBJVDBJCBJSCHDKNCKNDJCBDJBCDBDHEHBSEHSHSHSUBWHSHSGDJEBSIHWGDJSJBSKHDIBDJBEJBSJGDJBJDGWGHSVYWFTVWHGAGAGAHQHQKQNSNSOCNCGSFAYWISLSJDHFODHSNAVQHAISHDHDKIWHAKSHXKDHDJ!!!!!L!L[/b]

...

In post #109 you assume that I'm, "remarkably new and don't know what's going on"

I don't assume that, you said in this post here that you were new:

~Do I sound like someone who has absolutely no idea what a mafia game is??? Really???!???? Have i not sprinkled in enough mafia jargon???

Yes, you sound like someone who has barely a clue what a mafia game is.
I try not to use jargon because it's so often completely misused and the words have lost their meaning by now.

---

I have to go. I'll get to the rest of this steaming pile of misrepresentation tomorrow.

[Enter]

I mean, I just finished my first game where I happened to roll scum despite wanting to be town. So initially i was hyped for my first game as town. Yay I finally get to try scumhunting for reals! But then game starts and it's been like crawling through a sewer.. What am I supposed to do with all this turd? And then when I ask why there's a bunch of turd smeared on the walls, I get a stinky finger pointing at me and declaring me the poop bandit!

I'd rather not have to replace out, but the hype is completely gone, replaced by an awful stink.

Which leads you to putting on your IC hat and explaining basic shit without being asked, as if we were on the road to Rome. It doesn't really make sense to start explaining things to someone if you think they already know the things you are trying to explain.

No, what leads me to putting on my IC hat is you failing to understand the first time I say something. That was when I realized that I needed to explain in more detail.

~What led you to putting on your Ic hat was your incorrect assumptions about me, and now you are making more assumptions about whether or not I understood you.

If you already knew what I was trying to explain, why didn't you respond as such?

~The fuck are you talking about? I was quite upfront about not wanting you throwing your newbcard bullshit assumptions about my level of mafia knowledge into my face and condescending to me like I don't have a fukin clue what mafia is.

In post #119 you assumed I dismissed a string of your posts, and assumed reasoning for that assumption:

No, I didn't assume you dismissed my string of posts. You dismissed my string of posts here:

How's the weather up there? Please don't throw the newb card down at me in dismissal.

Instead of responding to them.

This isn't an assumption at all.

You claimed I dismissed them. I didn't, so you assumed wrong. Not responding to everything you type does not = dismissing it. Responding to you throwing a newb card has nothing to do with me not responding to other bs you say that I don't feel like responding to.

Is that enough to satisfy you? May I stop listing your assumptions now?

Given you didn't even point out any assumptions, much less assumptions that were incorrect, no, I'm not satisfied. Stop trying to defend your ignorance. It looks silly.

~This is quite possibly the dumbest thing I've read in a very long time. I did point out fuckin assumptions, and i didnt even need to point out assumptions because you have admitted to making assumptions but no you never said you didnt make assumptions but all the assumptions i pointed out werent assumptions cuz reasons and blahblahblah wtf is going on in your head why are people acting like this wall of shit is some bogeyman that got me by the toe and im scared to respond to it? No i dont want to respond because its a wall of fucking shit that has circled around on itself ad nauseum and im tired of trying to argue against stupid because it clearly doesnt wodk. I'm done. I'm fucking done with this shitty back and forth, im fuckin done with you, and i dont give a damn what anyone thinks about it but im done replying to this shit, im done giving it attention, you can take my vote, i doubt ill change it unless i get an extremely strong scumlean on women ne whichbis unlikely to happen d1, and i dont care if you are scum or not at this point because best case scenario you are gross antitown drama troll and im tired of feeding into it.

Could you quote where I was, "complaining about your meta discussion not being taken more seriously" now?

I did.

~b yea no you didnt because it never happened and you keep saying you did but that doesnt make it true and it this case it isnt true because again, it neve r fuckin happened. Imma go repeateely smsh head into wall forba bit..

Also, please stop misrepping me to make yourself look less like an idiot.[/quote]

Yea my head hurts now.. I'm done with enter. goodbye and have nice day.

Wow.. Now i think your probably trolling, but I'm just going to invoke Poe's law and move on. For the sake of all the other players in this game.

Yea like.. I don't even know where to begin unpacking that last post. Much easier to invoke Poe's law and move on. Plus we've made a pretty big mess to the point where continuing to clog the thread would likely be anti-town at best.

You tried to back out of the argument and call it TvT, and Enter wasn't having it.
So instead of refuting his points, you try to explain his actions using Poe's Law, so that scum!you isn't forced to scumread/push him, and you can still back out of the argument.

-Hectic

If you want to continue pushing this bs narrative then you can duck off too.[/quote]

[Enter]

oops. that last post is literally just the second half of zenith's, I didn't mean to click post

[Enter]

@Enter

out of curiosity do you think this dialogue with zenith is helping town?

No.

More on this later

Also, Nancyworld is way more disorienting than expected.

You’re the one that reads threads backwards, mlady.

also kinda confused by the whole "no night kill" dialogue

i assumed there would be no N0 actions due to player count

wot

basically i wasnt sure if there actions before D1 in this game style

its my first game out of the newbie queue so im still learning the differences

N0 actions are rare but possible.

My partner and I have decided we should all claim since there's 9 safe non-Victor safeclaims, and knowing partners will be good. Probably. I'll let you do the honours, Billy.

-Hectic

Nah, we’ve already gotten all of the AI out of that, I think. If Radja isn’t dumb (he’s not) he probably random.orged who had powers and which roles were absent so patterns there are wifom at best red herrings at worst.

WRT enter/zenith I’ve been getting the vibe that enter is poking zenith on purpose to keep him loud, useless, and distracting throughout the whole argument. Additionally, enter comes across as knowing zenith is town in a few places, and enter seems to want to be seen as the reasonable and reliable party while still cluttering the shit out of the thread.

So.. this.
A lot of people seem curious - I didn't like any of Zenith's posts going into it, but I like to give people the benefit of the doubt until I'm certain they're scum. When I confronted him, I very much did not like his response. We went back and forth several times, and I was about to back off again because I thought he might be town and I didn't really think I was getting much more out of it, until he tried to call it TvT, refused to respond to my post - not by saying it wasn't helping town (which I would have agreed to) but by trying to say that I was being sarcastic about the whole thing and trying to be dismissive, which isn't a pro-town stance if he legitimately believed I was town. I pressed him on this and not actually believing what he was saying, and his responses read as fake and improper to me. In addition, the fact that he only decided to continue responding after I voted him made me think he cared way too much about the way he was viewed.

All of these things added up to me thinking he's likely scum. Later that day I really didn't want to continue the back and forth so I called him likely town - a mistake on my part because I really wasn't sure on my read of him.

That said I think continuing the back and forth is a bit futile.

Also, low key, he didn’t really effect perfect masquerade afaicr, so...

I think every player in perfect Masquerade would disagree with you, and considering you didn't play...

No, claiming is bad.

Yes.

[Enter]

TL;DR: I intended to cut off my conversation with Zenith earlier than I did, but he did a couple things I found particularly scummy so I pushed him a little farther.

[Enter]

My preference is enter then amrun. Honestly I dont care after that.

Not claiming.

Claiming is a terrible idea, stop pushing it.

[Enter]

I think I’m around if not at this point. I think there’s more to Enter’s push that makes it scummy. It looks like a scripted push to avoid need to fabricate much other sorting.

What other sorting am I avoiding?

[Enter]

You haven’t acknowledged your lynchbaity (which was not what I believe Zenith called eir posts) posts in a genuine and humble (idfk if that’s the right word) way. E honestly and freely admitted it, your first admission here is only in the interest of shooting down my consideration of his post.
As for voting then, I voted because I was being snarky because you are being pushy rn, and I felt like I was close enough to caught up.

So you're voting me because you're mad?

My posts were intentionally lynch-baity with the purpose of driving discussion.

Zenith's were not.

[Enter]

My preference is enter then amrun. Honestly I dont care after that.

Not claiming.

Claiming is a terrible idea, stop pushing it.

You need to actually explain why it's a bad idea, you skirted by on vague bs for long enough. You're just guessing that Victor is a pr, and honestly I think that comes more from scum than town, so I need more than that.

VOTE: Enter

BP

How does Name Claiming help town?

If you can't give me a solid reason, you're giving scum information that they didn't previously have that may or may not help them, while giving town information that you know for a fact does not help them.

The whole discussion here appears to be attempting to discuss meta play on the basis of avoiding AI discussion.

And I will skirt on vague bs as long as I want to. I could not give less of a shit.

[Enter]

You're just guessing that Victor is a pr, and honestly I think that comes more from scum than town, so I need more than that.

I'm not guessing Victor is anything. I don't care what Victor is. On the basis of good general mafia play, openly presenting information is detrimental to town if you can't prove why it's helpful. Your argument that I'm not providing reasons for my argument is a poor attempt to place Burden of Proof on me, when it lies on you to prove why your idea is good.

[Enter]

Also I'm suspicious of Jingle - his push on me reads as fake, and as one of the best mechanical town players on the site (self-proclaimed) he should know better than to push what he's pushing right now.

[Enter]

No, I’m voting you because you seem fake. I think the assertion of “driving discussion” is pretty meh, scum can do it too, can can fil to do it, and you minda seem stuck on asserting that. And again Zenith’s were not intentional for that reasoning you gave but Zenith also came clean about it fairly organically. Your coming clean was to take a pot shot at em.

Scum can do anything town can do? That's just an excuse.
You don't think it seems consistent for the player that's been pushing against the whole game mechanics discussion (that has almost exclusively been going on except for when I've been here to push otherwise) to try to push discussion towards actually alignment indicative content?
Are you actually pushing that having your mind stuck on pushing alignment indicative content is a scummy thing to do?
Yes, Zenith's were not intentional. I didn't come clean, my posts served their purpose, there was no reason for me to hide what I did anymore. Zenith came clean because they had something to admit. I had nothing to admit, I did nothing wrong. Zenith was trying to make an excuse for a terrible post, I'm trying to tell you that you're town reading him for making terrible posts and scum reading me for making good posts. I don't understand what you don't get here.

[Enter]

Dude your push on me is like super terribad.

[Enter]

Would have liked to get a chance to play, that hammer was still one of the funniest mishammers I've ever seen, though. Oh well.

[Enter]

The case against Amrun wasn't trash. I think after you've played on the site for a little while longer you'll realize why the claim being made when it was was pretty bad. "Bastard" doesn't mean the game is unbalanced.

[Enter]

If you believe the case against Amrun was trash, you believe that balance was not even called into question.

[Enter]

Zenith you're displaying a density rarely noted in the human skull. Stop justifying your stance and your play, accept that you screwed up on several occasions, get better, and get over it. LOL

[Enter]

I don't know the list of all possible roles. But just making up roles in my head I don't see how it would be impossible to get a roughly balanced setup somehow. But again and again i say i'm not strong at setup spec because I lack the experience, and knowledge of all possible roles, etc.

I'd like to understand, but I currently don't.

For this reason, opposing the push against Amrun (even when the rest of town told you otherwise) and calling it trash is dumb and arguably lost the game for town.

[Enter]

If you admit you didn't know, why act like you did?

[Enter]

Rarely can you point to two specific points in the game and say "if, at these two points, something had gone differently, the game would have gone differently."

Both town lynches are arguably largely your fault. If you had posted L-1 when you voted me, and if you hadn't opposed the Amrun push when you admit to not knowing what was happening, I doubt either of us would have gotten lynched.

[Enter]

Blame me for your death if you want, but it takes 2 to tango and your play wasn't exactly better than my play D1. Your play was arguably worse than my D1 play considering at least I wasn't a PR, and I tried multiple times to break away from the tvt death tunnel but you just weren't having it. So maybe take some advice from this brainless no-nothing and the next time someone repeatedly tries to give you an out of the death tunnel you find yourself in, maybe take the out.

I didn't get lynched because my play was bad. My play wasn't bad. My responses were controlled and timely, not reactionary and purely based in emotion. I was not in a death-tunnel. My push against you was slow and controlled, and I had no intention of continuing it. No one else in the game wanted me dead at the time, I did not die because my play was bad or out of line. I have been playing this game long enough that I am very much capable of keeping myself from being mislynched and obvtowning when necessary. This is the first time I've been mislynched in years, and it was an accident.

[Enter]

The only part of my death that was "on me" which you seem to imply, is me not going back and checking the vote count for you. Don't try and put your laziness off on my play.

[Enter]

So you had no part in that tvt death tunnel? I was just talking to myself or something? Lol. I'm not the one who hammered you, but If you were at L-1 I probably would have stated intent to hammer though.

In all honesty though, if you hadn't insisted on constantly dragging me back into your mess, if you had just taken the out and let me go elsewhere, I would have gone elsewhere and wouldn't have even been voting for you. Thats on you bruh..

You keep using death tunnel to describe something that did not happen this game but for some reason seem to think you understand the meaning of the word.

Us fighting =! to death tunnel. I don't care if you would have hammered me, if people had been aware of the number of votes on me, I wouldn't have even gotten to L-1.

I dragged you back because the way you got out was scummy as fuck and absolutely terrible. Once I learned you were just dense, I quit arguing with you.

Just because you were freaking out like it's your first time playing mafia and someone voted you for the first time doesn't make something a death tunnel.

But no, 5 votes on you, all my fault. You had perfect play and I'm just the worst turd ever dropped. Ok, got it.

Me having 5 votes on me was due to the fact that there were very few vote counts over several pages and many players forgot where I stood and shared your laziness (myself included). That doesn't change the fact that you should go back and check to see what someone is at before you vote for them.

The fact that you seem ignorant towards your previous admission of guilt is disturbing to me.

[Enter]

You're not the worst turd ever dropped. You're pretty terrible, but a lot of players are bad when they start. *shrug*

[Enter]

That said, your play was contradicting itself consistently, and for that reason I would take a serious break and re-examine before I re-approached if I were you. Just a heads up, though.

[Enter]

Just because you were freaking out like it's your first time playing mafia and someone voted you for the first time doesn't make something a death tunnel.

Uhm.. We were tunneling each other, and the result was you died. Is that not what a death tunnel is?

I wasn't tunneling you. I wasn't pushing you regardless of legitimate arguments someone else was scum or strong arguments you were town. I had no intention of pushing you until one of us died (I actually wasn't even pushing you when I died). I repeatedly asked the question "why are you posting these scummy things" and you continued to post scummy things. If you were trying to push me until I died, it certainly didn't seem like it.

[Enter]

Although to be fair, people don't really tunnel anymore. I don't think I've seen a tunnel in a while, either. Most play these days seems to be more involved in making yourself look towny than finding and lynching scum.

[Enter]

Although to be fair, people don't really tunnel anymore. I don't think I've seen a tunnel in a while, either. Most play these days seems to be more involved in making yourself look towny than finding and lynching scum.

I think e was definitely death tunneling me in such a way that almost seemed to border on gaslighting. That’s why I was so sure e had to be scum, based specifically on the way e went about it. Twilight didn’t really help too much either. The next day e did a lot better minus the whole “the case on Amrun was trash” thing, excepted.

That's possible.
Reading him and trying to make sense of his posts after I was dead was bad enough that I just had to stop trying to keep up with the game, so after a while I simply skimmed everything and ignored his posts.

[Enter]

My proposed mass flavorclaim took way more of a centerstage position than it should have

This part was particularly ridiculous.

As far as Perfect Masquerade is concerned, the fact that up until Radiant Cowbells decided to throw all effort out the window that was the most controlled and coordinated town game I've ever been a part of and I think it had a very major part to do with my play. I think you're throwing a lot of shade for not being there and I'm telling you you're completely fucking wrong if you think that my contribution to that game can be summed up in a policy lynch on RadiantCowbells.

My town game that game was probably some of the best I've ever had and what I hope to play with in every game. I will fight you on this tooth and fucking nail if I have too, I'm pretty sick of this "reads are all that matter" bullshit. You weren't there and it looks like you're tossing conjecture on shit you skimmed. Come at me or fuck off.