Micro 971 Matrix Decipher Game OVer

[Infinity 324]

What's up I'm up to page 26 and I hope people have started playing the game

Bell is town

[Infinity 324]

I'm back to mafia after a long break

[Infinity 324]

I'm back to mafia after a long break

ok a couple things you should be aware of then: i dunno how long youve been away, but theres a site rule that hectic and i are town.

Gotcha, that should make things easier

[Infinity 324]

What are you confused about, Flopz?

I'll give you a helpful list: Isis' scumclaim has left me very puzzled at what I'm supposed to do with that, the whole pocketing saga over these last like 10 pages or so (the visuals have been great tho), whatever is going on with Isis and Pooky, in general a lot of what's been happening is fluff but with some solvey stuuf mixed in and it's hard to parse what is a meme and what isn't. My plan going forward is to start asking questions, that should help

Spoiler:

Had the same thought so reads town

[Infinity 324]

first 5 page reads list just in case I fall asleep

Taylor Swift weak town
Hopkirk ???
Hectic town lean
HoldenGolden ???
Flopz very weak town
Bell ???

I forgot everyone else lul

this is lend's only post with content. content was repeatedly promised. theres no effort to solve or engage. theres no effort to progress the game. im not saying null and therefore scum. im saying doding the thread and repeatedly promising content but never following through. this is classic disengaged scum. so yeah, i think votes and pressure are warranted.

I think difficulty engaging in a game where people are joking around so much is NAI. I also think the things you're accusing here are generally NAI.

[Infinity 324]

He asks me to go into logical chains of reasoning for why he’s scum when why the hell does town care if your argument is constructed well if they’re wrong? Does it make him happy to see that 3+4 = 10 as long as it’s written in cursive?

Pings as town

[Infinity 324]

oh lol lend. ive talked about lend.

infinity youre right that its not a strong case. but its kinda classic scum even if town does it too. i think we should at least put some votes on lend to get him to come play mafia with us. maybe he can flesh out the readlist a bit or update it or something?

My first thought was that this is "I know this is a bad way to read people but I want to push this slot anyway because I'm scum", but I'm at a similar place to you with reads and gut says you're town.

[Infinity 324]

hectic if you want you can just sheep me for all of today, and then if youre feeling better tomorrow ill sheep you

town

Why?

[Infinity 324]

She'd post something so beautiful that it brings tears to my eyes and I can't stop thinking about it.

Pooky! That's not gonna happen every game!

Could see this coming from scum who doesn't want to get caught through not doing towny stuff, depends on meta though

[Infinity 324]

@lend

If you read this, don't bother catching up and talk to us.

[Infinity 324]

{bell}
{hectic, flopz, hop}
{taylor}
{lend, pooky, isis} <-- null

[Infinity 324]

Pooky, do you have reads?

[Infinity 324]

Pookie, why don’t you like flops?

[Infinity 324]

Infinity 324 must be a Morning Tweet alt with only having townreads and a PoE.

Infinity, do you think a player stating something you agree with means they share an alignment with you? Is this a towntell you use often?

Yep

ALSO, could you explain the Bell townread please?

Bell came into a game with a relaxed attitude but still determined to find scum, a balance that can be hard for scum to fake. He was one of the players doing the most scumhunting early on, and the awkwardness of how seriously to take the scumhunting when everyone else was joking around was quite evident. I probably would’ve gone through a similar process if I was in his spot.

[Infinity 324]

Swift is being too towny to be town which I usually just count as town

I kind of feel like this game might be easy.

Yeah, Swifty went up a lot for me in the last few pages. The "authoritative" tone is something she lacked in her last scumgame iirc, she's more passive and apologetic there I think, whiel as town, this kind of push with confidence is standard stuff.

Will look into this, would make me more confident in the Taylor townread if true

[Infinity 324]

and the awkwardness of how seriously to take the scumhunting when everyone else was joking around was quite evident.

Why do you think this is town-indicative? I detected the same kind of thing, but it can just as easily come from scum as town. Unless you have reason to suspect scum!Bell wouldn't force himself and would just joke around along with us, rather than try and scumhunt like he normally would do.

Scum are more likely not to try and scumhunt in that position, since they don’t have to.

[Infinity 324]

What’s WIM?

Do you think lend is scum or just that we need an elim?

Can you respond to 1000, thanks

[Infinity 324]

Someone tell me a read they’re not sure of so we can try to work through it.

[Infinity 324]

Well, I'm not sure about flopz.

I like his tone and effort to solve despite not being here all the time. Hectic linked to this scum game, which looked a lot different: viewtopic.php?f=83&t=84250

[Infinity 324]

im not sure about pooky. well im leaning scum, but no one else seems interested. am i crazy, or just a genius?

I'm still trying to decide what to make of the interactions with Isis. I'm wondering if scum would shy away from doing that because they don't want to draw attention to themselves for seemingly to real benefit.

[Infinity 324]

Spoiler: flopz gamesolving, kinda

What are you confused about, Flopz?

I'll give you a helpful list: Isis' scumclaim has left me very puzzled at what I'm supposed to do with that, the whole pocketing saga over these last like 10 pages or so (the visuals have been great tho), whatever is going on with Isis and Pooky, in general a lot of what's been happening is fluff but with some solvey stuuf mixed in and it's hard to parse what is a meme and what isn't. My plan going forward is to start asking questions, that should help

Pooky what is your actual read on Isis at this stage of the game, help me understand what is memery and what is realery pls

I basically haven’t read this game at all but i’ll try tomorrow

When you return, what's your thoughts on the current pushes towards you? How does it make you feeeeeeeeeeeeel?

It's something that's kind of uncomfortable compared to my scumrange so it exposes I'm town

it might mean I have to do it more when rolling scum now, which will be rough.

I see I remember you saying earlier that you haven't actually done it as scum yet, though if you were this would be the perfect game for it, how often have you done this as town or is this some new strat?

Could you elaborate on why you think she's town

@Bell

I’d say read his posts and do your best to see the scum in him but that never tends to work out.

Pattern recognition.
Sentence structure and length fit scum that don’t know about what things scum do that town don’t (I was serious about scum posting less often but with more text). For whatever empirical reason that this is the case.

You can also see how he chose to approach the argument that he was scum. By breaking it down.
Pointing out that I didn’t answer a question that hectic had asked without a hint that he was interested in the answer himself but was instead using it as a form of leverage or sense of fairness. “It’s rude not to answer every question asked of you!!! Hmmm?”

He asks me to go into logical chains of reasoning for why he’s scum when why the hell does town care if your argument is constructed well if they’re wrong? Does it make him happy to see that 3+4 = 10 as long as it’s written in cursive?

I realize that this is all post-response to his response. Which is just hectic’s defense that it’s NAI for him to be polite to which I made my reply that how he’s using it probably is AI and hectic overgeneralized or over simplified the nuance of polite scum versus polite town. I think it curves better toward polite scum than polite town.

I like this and I can see where you are coming from with his tone/structure on re-read. I would like to give him the chance to explain his motivation for your later points.

Pooky, what's your view of this after my response?

[Infinity 324]

Kinda? He follows up on the isis scumclaiming thing, which imo is NAI, but it shows putting more into the game than I'd expect from catching-up scum, and I could definitely see why a townie would think it's important.

[Infinity 324]

I'm kinda not sure what you're expecting him to do with the reads, we haven't had a ton of content to analyze.

[Infinity 324]

Hey pooky do you want to help us find who the mafia are?

[Infinity 324]

you think Lend and Flop aren't it?

Probably not flop

[Infinity 324]

I could see lend by PoE, he hasn’t really done anything AI imo. You seem very satisfied in your reads, why!

[Infinity 324]

I don't like your attitude

[Infinity 324]

Yeah besides that I don't really have anything AI on pooky so

[Infinity 324]

I will say that the wholesomeness and love is in overdrive here compared to Menagerie. I don't think that's out of your scumrange though, is it? Do you as scum feel guilty for pocketing people in his manner?

This is very far outside both my town range and my scum range.

This is true btw

[Infinity 324]

Swift is being too towny to be town which I usually just count as town

I kind of feel like this game might be easy.

Yeah, Swifty went up a lot for me in the last few pages. The "authoritative" tone is something she lacked in her last scumgame iirc, she's more passive and apologetic there I think, whiel as town, this kind of push with confidence is standard stuff.

I didn't see this here, can you elaborate?

[Infinity 324]

Even if Infinity played with Pooky in the olden days he can't have very current information about Pooky. Infinity shouldn't really have the information necessary to agree with Pooky's characterization.

Like
From an uninformed perspective, looking at Pooky's play, my natural inclination is "I have trouble characterizing this". That's even with a game or two of meta and context.
From an informed perspective knowing that Pooky is town and have the corners of the jigsaw puzzle filled in already, it's more possible for someone to look at the play and say , "I can characterize this, it can't be this, but it could be this instead."
I am kind of ignoring the content of the assessment itself "Pooky is outside both his town and scum range", not because it's logically absurd as it so happens to be but because it's correctness or incorrectness doesn't matter to me as much as the willingness to be confident about this kind of WIFOM. Especially confidence accepting Pooky's own offer of how it should be accepted, which should inherently relate to paranoia about trusting others.

I looked into meta and pooky is playing very different from other games

[Infinity 324]

When did Pooky start playing differently this game?

Since the beginning

[Infinity 324]

Have you got any thoughts on why he made the

weird

playstyle shift midgame, or is that not relevant to your thoughts on him?

You mean the part where they shift to only talking to Isis? Idk, it's confusing to me, do you have thoughts?

Feel like pooky basically hasn't posted game-relevant content

[Infinity 324]

You mean the part where they shift to only talking to Isis? Idk, it's confusing to me, do you have thoughts?

Feel like pooky basically hasn't posted game-relevant content

this is a common criticism made of me.

what would you like to talk about?

I want to talk about your flopz read. I think he is town but I don't have a ton of great arguments as it's mostly tone. What do you think?

[Infinity 324]

Can you give examples?

[Infinity 324]

if you read his entire ISO from start to finish his emotional tone does not really vary - he purposefully keeps it at around the same pitch.

I feel like this is a personality thing and NAI

@mod: prod lend?

[Infinity 324]

Do you think pooky pushing you for that is scummy?

[Infinity 324]

Damn, Pooky is just straight up ignoring me

Spoiler:

It's a reaction test. I want to see if you get upset about it.

What were you looking for with the reaction test, and what did you get out of it? Will you answer the questions now that you revealed it was a reaction test?

[Infinity 324]

you should be like hunting for bad guys or something right? :3

Exactly, I felt that Bell was operating in bad faith so could be scum so I wanted to put on pressure to see if they'd crack.

I feel like you haven't been pushing that much else besides that attack though? I understand the instinct to defend yourself, but it's not really helpful to only push hard when people are attacking you.

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: Pooky I searched my heart

[Infinity 324]

Still think flopz is town, the above 2 posts look genuine.

[Infinity 324]

Why?

[Infinity 324]

Talk to me about pooky.

[Infinity 324]

His pocketing play, and the way he's been talking to Isis feels a lot more genuine than his recent scumgame (Menagerie). 90% of the read is based on thinking scum!Pooky would feel guilty and wouldn't emotionally manipulate this hard as scum.

Looking at town!pooky games, it feels very different from those too. Also I sorta felt like the buddying could be just friendly interaction and NAI? There wasn't much scumhunting going on at the time.

[Infinity 324]

I'm a bit worried about deadline, don't want to put lend to L-1 if he's just getting replaced though.

[Infinity 324]

Yep this is a new different pooky.
Did you know that scum I feel are less creative and imaginative than town?
I think if pooky came in with a new approach he’s prolly gunna do it as town and not scum imo.
Gunna look dumb if he flips red tho. ~_~

The most creative thing about it is that there's no real content. Like, I'm not going to give someone townpoints for that. It probably just happened because of the way the game turned out to be very meme-y at the beginning.

[Infinity 324]

Hey lend, if you could read the last couple pages and quickly give your thoughts that’d be great.

[Infinity 324]

Also claim cause you're at L-1

[Infinity 324]

Can I interest anyone in a pooky wagon?

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: Hectic

Ok well the deadline is in a day and this isn't happening.

[Infinity 324]

Hectic is unviersally townread.

[Infinity 324]

If it's not you or pooky, I guess I could compromise on flopz or taylor?

[Infinity 324]

Not really

[Infinity 324]

I don't think Pooky is ever scum based on this being way out of his scum/town range. It may be out of both ranges, but the more he's like this, the more town-indicative it is for him. In reality, it's extremely far out of his scumrange, and a little out of his townrange if that makes sense.

It's either scum experimenting or town just feeling/playing differently, I think it's probably NAI.

[Infinity 324]

"It is scummy for Pooky to be outside of his scum-range" - TS :3

Do you really think she's saying this?

[Infinity 324]

the smiley face clearly indicates it is a joke :3

Ok

[Infinity 324]

A crumb would basically confirm you guys, which would be nice. If not, I feel like it might be worth mass claiming at this point. Bell/lend are always the first 2 nightkills, and I kind of really doubt we'll have a protective since that would be pretty townsided so I don't see many drawbacks. It'd prevent scum from doing a frame the masons route and keeping them alive till LyLo, and it'd also out lend/Bell if they really are wcum gambiting.

Thoughts?

Doc + masons vs. 3 goons is scumsided still, so I really don’t see why we can’t have a protective. I also think that many investigatrice roles are stronger than a confirmed-not-quite-confirmed townie.

I also don’t want the mod error to affect my play (plus everything is speculative really)

[Infinity 324]

A crumb would basically confirm you guys, which would be nice. If not, I feel like it might be worth mass claiming at this point. Bell/lend are always the first 2 nightkills, and I kind of really doubt we'll have a protective since that would be pretty townsided so I don't see many drawbacks. It'd prevent scum from doing a frame the masons route and keeping them alive till LyLo, and it'd also out lend/Bell if they really are wcum gambiting.

Thoughts?

Doc + masons vs. 3 goons is scumsided still, so I really don’t see why we can’t have a protective. I also think that many investigatrice roles are stronger than a confirmed-not-quite-confirmed townie.

I also don’t want the mod error to affect my play (plus everything is speculative really)

[Infinity 324]

Nothing, the “you” in 1248 is isis.

[Infinity 324]

Nothing, the “you” in 1248 is isis.

[Infinity 324]

Nothing, the “you” in 1248 is isis.

So is she still Null for you?

Yeah

[Infinity 324]

Why is everyone double or triple posting? Is this a new trend that I'm late on?

My and flopz’s internets are acting up I think

[Infinity 324]

Ah 3 goons was suggested.

That feels like a definite no for 9 players.

I really thought we were in a mini lol

I do think if scum has a roleblocker or something, a tracker/doctor + masons seems ok.

[Infinity 324]

Oh this is a closed so the doctor/mason claim doesn't outright win so yeah it's not as strong as I was thinking, but still seems strong.
I don't have tons of experience on mafiascum micro balancing. I'm assuming 3 town prs is the absolute max right (@anyone)

Yeah, I think so. The more I think about it the more I think the other PR might need to be gated if we have one. (Not an expert on setup spec though either tbh). I do think we want to wait at least another day and try to get a protect/investigation off before massclaim.

[Infinity 324]

Sounds good wrt massclaim

[Infinity 324]

Sounds good wrt massclaim

Why'd you change your mind?

Other people knowing more about balance tbh (I sorta forgot how setup balance works over my mafia break)

Also mafia having PR's is less likely since e.g. a roleblocker doesn't do much with max 1 active PR

[Infinity 324]

Hectic popcorn somebody

[Infinity 324]

This didn't happen. I have two legs left.

How many did you start with?

Egg cells don’t have legs silly

[Infinity 324]

HOPKIRK CHANGED HIS AVATAR

Is that a good all caps comment on the new avatar or a less good one?

I feel like the old one was a little too harsh/serious for my current playstyle and I've been meaning to change it for a while now. Definitely not scum indicative. Why I'd argue that keeping your avatar the whole game is suspicious in the same way using full stops is. Too restrained, just hiding in old patterns.

I was the first one to change my avatar, pretty sure that makes me basically confirmed town

[Infinity 324]

official votecount Bell (1) : Flopz (803) lendunistus (1) : Tayl0r Swift (876) Isis (1) : Hectic (1256) Hectic (2) : Isis (1242), lendunistus (1267) Flopz (1) : Bell (742) PookyTheMagicalBear (1) : Infinity 324 (1159) not voting (2) : Hopkirk, PookyTheMagicalBear with 9 alive, it takes 5 to eliminate. deadline : (expired on 2020-10-17 20:36:18)

joint moderator ISO

Really not a fan of this vote count.

Once again, I’m willing to compromise on Taylor, flopz, or isis.

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: flopz

[Infinity 324]

Once again, I’m willing to compromise on Taylor, flopz, or isis.

Have your reads changed from the readslist you posted earlier, of course aside from psuhing Lend up?

Still nothing much has changed, also I totally forgot about the massclaim thing. I’m VT, popcorn you

[Infinity 324]

Hey pooky can you use your vote?

VOTE: pooky maybe Taylor will get here and this can happen?

[Infinity 324]

Hey pooky can you use your vote?

VOTE: pooky maybe Taylor will get here and this can happen?

quite distressing

ofc I will vote. I'm busy working on my re-read.

Ok just keep in mind the deadline

[Infinity 324]

official votecount Bell (1) : Flopz (803) lendunistus (1) : Tayl0r Swift (876) Isis (1) : Hectic (1256) Hectic (2) : Isis (1242), lendunistus (1267) Flopz (1) : Bell (742) PookyTheMagicalBear (1) : Infinity 324 (1159) not voting (2) : Hopkirk, PookyTheMagicalBear with 9 alive, it takes 5 to eliminate. deadline : (expired on 2020-10-17 20:36:18)

joint moderator ISO

Really not a fan of this vote count.

Woah, where's the clear and transparent thoughts we normally get from you. What specifically about the count do you not like?

Oh, missed this. The thing that I didn’t like is that we had a day left in the deadline (9 hours now) and no one close to an elim at all.

[Infinity 324]

I kind of doubt Infinity meta-read me because if he actually looked at my scum-games he would notice they are very different from my play in this game. - My aggression level is much higher in my scum-games than my town-games.

His vote on me where he follows Flopz onto me is also pretty strange considering he was following Bell on Flopz just a second ago. It feels fairly oppurtunistic and not reflective of thoughts about game strategy.

I am on page 51 of my re-read and will share it after I am done but I'm pretty comfortable with my vote here for now:

VOTE: Infinity

I read scum games too, it’s very different from both

Will find the games I looked at later, but you were the one who said your play was outside both your town and scum range so ???

[Infinity 324]

I want people to notice how pooky only started doing stuff when he was under pressure, and how quick my counterwagon popped up.

[Infinity 324]

I want people to notice how pooky only started doing stuff when he was under pressure, and how quick my counterwagon popped up.

an i supposed to not do stuff under pressure when im town?

You’re supposed to do stuff when you’re not under pressure

[Infinity 324]

i have 4x your post count and way more meaningful interactions where do you get this fantasy that I wasnt doing stuff?

You had very little game-relevant content, your interactions didn’t mean shit, and I replaced in late in the day so

[Infinity 324]

I don’t remember seeing reads on anyone except isis until I asked you for them, and very little sorting

[Infinity 324]

you are saying i didnt do anything all game when I have made like more posts than anyone else so um allow me to disagree on the facts :3

I don’t think I have to explain why this means nothing.

[Infinity 324]

Sorry about the tone, kind of upset about being limmed so quickly after I replaced in. I hope y’all can find the scum anyway

[Infinity 324]

Worried a bit about Taylor setting up mislims too

[Infinity 324]

i just yeeted infinity. does that count?

its something, sorta. we will see whether its something good tho.

Do you really think I’m twilight trolling this hard?

[Infinity 324]

1527 is a very scummy post, scum love to pretend they don’t know the flip when it should be obvious by now

[Infinity 324]

That’s why I was trying to get people to compromise earlier, but it happens

[Infinity 324]

Bah

[Infinity 324]

Congrats!

[Infinity 324]

It's ok, y'all avenged me

[Infinity 324]

I agree, being nice to people is a great way to play mafia

[Infinity 324]

I don't know that it's clear that "t0xic" mafia has a high winrate, the old school of thought is that toxic players tend to win lots of game. That could be correlation and not causation.

Hectic has a pretty silly high winrate, but there's a host of characteristics that could come from.

I know that I personally win a lot more in friendly environments as town, but toxic players are a probably a lot less likely to get elimmed, which helps your winrate as both alignments.

[Infinity 324]

Probably. Generally the problem I have as town is that so much shit that people do is NAI, being toxic is certainly one of those.

[Infinity 324]

That makes my head hurt though

I think general trends like "being toxic" or "pushing for lims a lot" aren't really AI, I think if you can get in people's heads lots of things can be AI but that requires knowing the person/playstyle really well.

[Infinity 324]

Usually I just use gut and then make up reasons for why my gut is right.

[Infinity 324]

there were 8 masons

[Infinity 324]

When I claimed all 3 of my masonries I think people realized something was different about this setup

[Infinity 324]

Hectic nerfs aren't enough, he's going to have to be banned