Micro 981 | Chain of Command 2004 Camry Edition | Game Over!

[dostin]

I am Jacko beep boop kpop I'm correct about Johnny scum a lot

What do you think of him so far? Also hi everyone I'm dostin!

[dostin]

I thought the first couple votes on this site are supposed to be random to kick off the discussion. Doesn't choosing from a list ruin the whole point?

[dostin]

Thanks Datisi. Why do you think that Kookie voted for you?

[dostin]

I thought the first couple votes on this site are supposed to be random to kick off the discussion. Doesn't choosing from a list ruin the whole point?

Nah, it's just as random a reason as any. Plus, it's not a confirmed reason, I'm merely speculating and joking about it

hot take????? dostin is aligned with the town.

[dostisi]

But if you're just taking the first one then what discussion can we have? There's only one choice they can make. Even if you are just picking "randomly" there will be human error for people to analyze because I don't think you're allowed to use a R.N.G. in this game. If you just pick from the top of a list there is no real choice involved. So if that's true, maybe Datisi is hiding something, and maybe (I'm not saying this is true) that something is that he is a mafia?

[dostin]

In post 20, dostin wrote:
Thanks Datisi. Why do you think that Kookie voted for you?

dostin.

i am surprised (?) to see someone respond to "i think you're town" with a "thanks". do you care about why i voted you? do you think i could be scum trying to gain your sympathy so you don't try to yeet me later? or do you trust me?

kookie voted for me because i never read them right.

[also, before you quote this whole wallpost to reply to this part: if you highlight something, then click the quote button, you will only quote what you highlighted.]

You didn't vote for me, you voted for Aristophanes. And for the other questions I think I'm too close to the start of the game to make any decisions like that.

So you believe Kookie's reason?

[dostin]

I am Jacko beep boop kpop I'm correct about Johnny scum a lot

What do you think of him so far? Also hi everyone I'm dostin!

Who, Johnny? That fool town as hell

- monster

Why?

what i meant to type was "do you care why i think you're town." i'm not drinking right now.

I don't like that you first mentioned it without explaining yourself and are now asking me this. It sounds like you wanted to make a splash of some kind with that post and were upset that nobody asked you to explain so you couldn't accomplish whatever you wanted to at first. If you're town it could be that you said I was town to try and read my reaction, but if that was your angle then I think you probably would have said something different in the first place.

And I guess it's a little awkward asking someone why they think you're town. I don't want to sound like I only want to hear my own praises. I know that is silly. But if you would like to share, then I would definitely like to listen and perhaps discuss with you.

[dostin]

Datisi I see that you did get asked to explain yourself about me, but when we were talking before that didn't happen yet.

[dostin]

I also realized something else but I won't say it yet.

[dostin]

That makes sense, I think we are on the same page about that now. Right now I think maybe you are the mafia with bugspray, and my third would be I'm pretty sure that kookiemonster is town.

[dostin]

There was some light jabbing between you two at the beginning of the game when bugspray first came in the thread. It wasn't anything too serious that would get anyone voted out on its own, so I was thinking it could have been you are pretending to be greeting each other for the first time this game because we know that the mafia are already talking together in private. By doing it this way it makes it look like an honest interaction and people looking back might not think it was fake. Then you made it sound like we shouldn't hold you accountable to your read of bugspray. Then for a little bit it looked like maybe you're avoiding bugspray, especially when other people started thinking they were mafia. You might think you went too far at the start. Finally, you changed your vote back to bugspray from iconeum again when people were saying they wanted bugspray voted out, but this time your vote looked more serious. Now your pushing kookie and the post where you voted them looked like an excuse to get off of bugspray yet again.

[dostin]

For my kookiemonster town read I will elaborate on later.

[dostin]

Oh and bugspray I don't know why I think they're mafia on their own. Why do you think they asked you for help when kookiemonster was talking about them? Did you think the brainworms comment was weird?

[dostin]

i have a major problem with that read explanation, because it reads like "i need to explain why bugs/dats are a team > these interactions can be interpreted like partners"

You asked me to elaborate and I already said why I think it's you, so I explained why you are a team.

Why do you think they asked you for help when kookiemonster was talking about them? Did you think the brainworms comment was weird?

because i usually have a correct read on bugs quickly.

You sounded dismissive of it like you were distancing from a weird post.

[dostin]

and no.

Sorry I quoted the wrong part. I was responding to this part but I got mixed up.

[dostin]

That was about the brainworms

[dostin]

because i usually have a correct read on bugs quickly.

Didn't bugspray know you thought they were mafia already?

[dostin]

That makes sense, I think we are on the same page about that now.

what was this ^^ a reply to then? because the only thing so far you've said is that you don't like that i reasked you something when nobody picked me up on it, which i explained why i did (and which you yourself offered a possible town!pov for me to do)

That was about posts having multiple purposes which I didn't think about before.

[dostin]

AtE to no end

bold

of you to somehow believe that quoting the misgendering in the apology was better than the same exact post without it

Something that strikes me as funky is the time between km's posts on page 2 vs this one. I'm unsure of the slower reply afterwards is ai although for some reason I feel like a scum player would feel more in the moment stunned about not wanting to reply in a way that isnt scummy

Your interaction with bugspray look dishonest, and your response to kookie's vote is overblown.

[dostin]

I have no clue how that quote got there it doesn't have anything to do with what I am talking about

[dostin]

dostin: in the event of scum!datisi and town!bugspray who do you think the other partner could be?

I think then TGP or Uncrowned or maybe iconeum because right now everyone else looks like town to me.

[dostin]

Hey Dats talk to me about the Dostin wagon when you can

Why don't you want to ask me anything? I don't think the reason you gave when you first voted me at first was very fair. You said I didn't question why Datisi said I'm town but I did question Datisi about other things and I have thought he was scum this whole time. So I don't think it's a good reason because why do I only have to ask certain questions when I think that somebody is mafia? If the game worked like that then it would be really boring and really easy for the mafia to know how to answer.

[dostin]

By the way, the thing I didn't say before is that I know that Jackson isn't actually in this game and Johnny is the same person, but I don't think that matters anymore.

[dostin]

Oh and by the way the "overblown reaction" to being voted or scumread thing is super overrated as a scumtell imo and for most players I'd argue is NAI. I wouldn't put too much stake in it outside of newbie games tbh

Why are you talking about this hypothetically? In this game, coming from Datisi, is it NAI? Do you agree that it was an overblown reaction? Why or why not?

[dostin]

He says I have no experience with him and shades me for it but my very first game with him, I wanted to shoot scum!him day 1.

ok, and???? do you maybe wanna talk about the second game we played, where town!you was townreading scum!me after i left you out to die and get ripped apart by the town??? like your read on me so far is *at best* 50% so don't even fucking start

Getting this angry over a vote is interesting. You're purposefully changing your meta to throw me off
Last time you did this to me, you had ~cool~ vibes which angered me big time. You see its not working anymore so you decide to try to throw me off by showing off some "townie anger"
No. You ARE scum.

I don't understand this. You look like you are only using meta on Datisi to read him this whole time, because you're saying he was scummy because his play looked like how he plays scum. Now you are saying he is scummy because his play looks nothing like how he plays scum? If you still honestly believe he is scum can't you find other reasons that make sense? There has to be another reason or else this doesn't make sense or else you are scum.

[dostin]

...what would I ask you, exactly?

My SR on you is on your scummy P1 tone and your reach on Bugs/Datisi.

"Why don't you want to ask me anything" is such a weird thing to say.

You didn't even acknowledge my vote until now that your wagon has picked up? When it was just me voting you you ignored it entirely?

Dostin is scum.

Why are you asking me what kind of questions you should ask? Aren't you the one voting me? I can't tell you what reasons you have for voting me and I can't tell you what parts of it don't quite add up to you but I don't know why you hadn't talked to me at that point to try and make sure your vote was right.

So FMPOV, scum!dostin sees towncrowned vote him early, for an admittedly minor reason. He feels no pressure. TGP and Datisi townlean him so he's feeling good and doesn't feel the need to respond.

Feeling comfortable, he makes that bad read on Datisi/Bugs.

He gets called out for it. Gets to E-1. NOW all of a sudden it's "unfair" that I'm voting you? Now you feel the need to reply, because you're on the chopping block?

Yeah. This is scum. We can wait for Ico/Ari to get back from. V/LA for more info/perspective but this is the flip we're making today.

You're still not talking to me here? Who are you talking to? You're just telling a made up story without even doing anything to try and make sure you can prove it. You're also not even giving me a chance to allow other to read me. By asking me questions you can make sure you're right and you can make other people see for themself that you are right or wrong. This angle doesn't make any sense if you are town and actually think I might be a mafia. You're twisting what actually happened by saying the "Feeling comfortable" part because I was answering a direct question I didn't randomly decide to theorize about Datisi/bugs on my own.

[dostin]

dostin: in the event of scum!datisi and town!bugspray who do you think the other partner could be?

I think then TGP or Uncrowned or maybe iconeum because right now everyone else looks like town to me.

why are username and ari town to you?

I didn't really remember that username was in this game but I do remember liking their first post it sounded like smart thinking.

Ari looks like town because of his joking around before going away for the weekend without doing anything serious. If I did that as mafia I would be way too paranoid that people thought I was scum while I'm gone.

[dostin]

uncrowned and dostin give off a very strong t/s vibe to me. which is very scary if dostin flips town. i won't think about that for now.

bugs, do you have reads? why are you even voting dostin?

Can you explain this? How does it look like one town and one scum if you don't even know who is who? This is just like Uncrowned talking about hypothetical situations while we are in a game with real things happening. What about my history with Uncrowned looks like I am scum and he is town? What about it looks like he is scum and I am town?

[dostin]

Actually Dostin, here's a question.

Explain why TGP or Ico could be scum? Interesting how you go after two of the less active players and provide absolutely no reasoning whatsoever.

TGP made some weird posts at the start about me and Datisi. They looked like they knew too much for town player on the first page of the game. When they disagreed with Uncrowned's vote for me, they made it sound like there was a big secret reason for it but the reason doesn't make sense to me and it doesn't seem as important as when they first hinted about it.

Ico looked kind of awkward at first and looked like they tripped over themselves a bit, but now I don't know why I thought Ico looked like maybe mafia.

[dostin]

Actually Dostin, here's a question.

Explain why TGP or Ico could be scum? Interesting how you go after two of the less active players and provide absolutely no reasoning whatsoever.

uncrowned probably town

Why?

[dostin]

Can you explain this?

dunno if i can, honestly. it's like, your actions don't look s/s. but, while i can see what uncrowned means when he says he thinks you're scum, and i don't necessarily *disagree*... something about his posts is still making me uneasy. i don't think i can explain it on a conscious level.

Ok I guess I can understand your reasons why you might say we are not mafia together even though you still didn't explain anything. But you have to be able to explain why we are definitely not both town right? That's the part of this that is not making sense to me.

[dostin]

Why are you talking about this hypothetically? In this game, coming from Datisi, is it NAI? Do you agree that it was an overblown reaction? Why or why not?

If I make a comment like that generally and then don't elaborate further with my opinion, safe to say I agree with the general statement. That is to say, no, I don't think the reaction is NAI. This is a bit of a useless question imo.

If you really want to know the "why" it's because I try not to value emotion too much in my reads on people. Town frustration can definitely be a thing and I will use it here and there, but I think Datisi is good enough to use it as scum IF he wants to. However, because the initial push by Kookie was quite bad (something I've already stated) it's also not a huge surprise to me that Datisi reacted in that manner.

In terms of probability FMPOV, neither is much more likely than the other, hence it being NAI.

Why do you say this is a useless question? Do you mean it's a useless question for me to ask you because it won't tell me anything about you? Or do you think it's useless because it won't tell me about Datisi? Are you giving me advice on playing the game well? Defending yourself? I am very curious about that part of your post.

[dostin]

I asked the question because I didn't know what your opinion was about Datisi vs kookie and your first post to me about it (the one I was quoting before in the post you just quoted) made it very hard to see what your real thoughts were besides just theory advice.

[dostin]

Why are you asking me what kind of questions you should ask? Aren't you the one voting me? I can't tell you what reasons you have for voting me and I can't tell you what parts of it don't quite add up to you but I don't know why you hadn't talked to me at that point to try and make sure your vote was right.

You're still not talking to me here? Who are you talking to? You're just telling a made up story without even doing anything to try and make sure you can prove it. You're also not even giving me a chance to allow other to read me. By asking me questions you can make sure you're right and you can make other people see for themself that you are right or wrong. This angle doesn't make any sense if you are town and actually think I might be a mafia. You're twisting what actually happened by saying the "Feeling comfortable" part because I was answering a direct question I didn't randomly decide to theorize about Datisi/bugs on my own.

I've already given you my reasons, and you're just saying they're "made-up" and "don't make any sense" without actually telling me why town!you would:

1: Ignoring my vote on you.

2: Making a stretch case on Dats/Bugs while Kookie was being pressured - which FTR I believe is +Equity between you two.

3: Only deciding to interact with me once your wagon reached high pressure.

What exactly do you mean by "prove it" ??? This is Mafia. I can't "prove" anything until I see you flip. Unless I'm an investigative role with results on you, or there's conf!town with a result on you, there will never be a 100% chance that you are or aren't Mafia. This applies to any game on this site. I am going off of probabilities, and I can't imagine your behavior coming from a town who is actually trying to solve the game. You look like a scum who tried to avoid pressure and then shat themselves horribly when they realized that their wagon was picking up.

What was there to talk about with you when I first voted, would you say? I voted you for your awkward P1 entrance and posting style. I then followed that up with pushing on you later on in the game for specific reasons which... you still haven't really answered outside of "this is unfair" and "it doesn't make sense" which isn't much of anything at all.

I don't NEED to ask you anything. If I'm going to make a push because I have a read on you, I'm going to force the issue. If we sat around here asking 21 questions every time we had a read on someone, we'd get talked out of it 99 times out of 100 because then you get into paranoia and a game of "ahh shit they're posting really well now under pressure but I thought they started scummy" or things of that nature.

Even now your posting is shallow. You're trying to shade and discredit without actually pointing out what is wrong with the case.

1. Would you think I looked like town if I questioned every single time somebody said something about me? Why did you deserve a response from me if you weren't even willing to engage me directly yourself? And why am I the only one at fault for that according to you?

2. Datisi (and you I think) asked me to elaborate so I explained. I would not have brought up those points if nobody asks. I'm sure everyone gets gut reads for stupid reasons sometimes that are hard to explain why it makes you so sure. Not saying that I was sure at all because that was one of my very first posts I'm pretty sure and not a lot happened in the game yet but I didn't think it's really that much of stretch, I don't really remember though.

3. What is the reason a mafia would have to go back to the first vote against them way later when other people give them pressure? That doesn't make sense it would just draw more attention to you. How does that make me scum?

You are attacking my word choice which is a pretty scummy thing to go on for a whole paragraph about. You can't "prove" anything but you can support it or at least make an attempt to prove the best you can, like in a court with lawyers.

[dostin]

Can you explain this? How does it look like one town and one scum if you don't even know who is who? This is just like Uncrowned talking about hypothetical situations while we are in a game with real things happening. What about my history with Uncrowned looks like I am scum and he is town? What about it looks like he is scum and I am town?

Interactions are arguably the biggest part of this game. They're what can solidify (or weaken) reads and are crucial to later in the game when you need to figure out who the scum-team is.

I don't like this whole "hypothetical" thing you've got going on because when you're playing a game where you don't have any information, EVERYTHING is going to be a hypothetical until it is proven one way or the other.

It's such a weird way to discredit people. It's like me saying to you right now "B-But Dostin... you're making a guess that I'm twisting the story right now! How do you know it's 100% true?" and trying to shut you down by saying that, because it can't be proven right away, it's false? What kind of thinking is that? How is that going to work in a game where there are no certainties outside of investigative results?

How come it's fine for you to discredit Datisi or me by saying stuff is hypothetical, but it's unfair when we say that your casing of Bugs/Dats didn't seem quite right?

Ok? I asked a question about why he said that, not about what t/s means or why interactions are important. Why are you defending Datisi so much?

I don't know why you are both just throwing game theory labels on every interaction and then getting upset when I say that's not an explanation. I don't care if you are hypothesizing I know that's a big part of the game but I don't like how you are both sometimes avoiding giving real opinions instead of applying theories to things without having to use your own words.

That last question doesn't make any sense those are two different things.

[dostin]

Why do you say this is a useless question? Do you mean it's a useless question for me to ask you because it won't tell me anything about you? Or do you think it's useless because it won't tell me about Datisi? Are you giving me advice on playing the game well? Defending yourself? I am very curious about that part of your post.

I meant useless question because the answer was already there for you to see.

And uhh... no? I don't think I was trying to do either of those things? I just explained why the interaction came off as NAI to me.

You say interactions are the biggest part of the game, but you don't see why I would ask a question besides wanting to know the answer?

VOTE: Uncrowned I think you are scum trying to get me voted out on the first day ever since you saw my "awkward" posting right from page 1.

[dostin]

@Datisi

I don't really get your point about active posting? Maybe I'm just misunderstanding it? You're saying scum are fine without posting but are part of the active posters?

so, during the weekend, three people were practically not posting: ico and ari, who were VLA, and username, who usually doesn't post a lot.

during that weekend, with the vast vast majority of posts coming from the other 6 players, the game was:
(1) a shitshow, most of the people playing had scumreads on others that were playing, and there was a decent amount of infights and mudflinging
(2) decently active at times, *but* it also easily went 12+ hours without a single post

this makes me think that both scum are in the 6 player who were active during that period, because:
(1) it seemed like there is no cohesion inbetween the players, most were fighting/argung/scumreading with the most of others, which makes me think there's a higher ratio of scum purposefully sowing chaos
(2) the activity levels varying that strongly also make me think that, because i guess i think town is more ~consistent~ in their posting, while scum will post a lot if necessary but doesn't mind just ~dropping the posting~ if they are able to / can get away with it

obviously, this "case" relies on assumptions that (1) town, if by themselves, will be able to find each other and (2) town is more consistent in posting and won't as easily drop the game, *and* scum *will* drop the game if given the opportunity.

i'll admit i'm not... extremely confident in this theory, but eh. felt it would be of use to at least get it out there.

I don't like some parts of this post but I have to go for now so I will explain later. I will also finish reading the game later. I got up to this post so far.

[dostin]

Uncrowned I will reply to your posts later too.

[dostin]

@Datisi

I don't really get your point about active posting? Maybe I'm just misunderstanding it? You're saying scum are fine without posting but are part of the active posters?

so, during the weekend, three people were practically not posting: ico and ari, who were VLA, and username, who usually doesn't post a lot.

during that weekend, with the vast vast majority of posts coming from the other 6 players, the game was:
(1) a shitshow, most of the people playing had scumreads on others that were playing, and there was a decent amount of infights and mudflinging
(2) decently active at times, *but* it also easily went 12+ hours without a single post

this makes me think that both scum are in the 6 player who were active during that period, because:
(1) it seemed like there is no cohesion inbetween the players, most were fighting/argung/scumreading with the most of others, which makes me think there's a higher ratio of scum purposefully sowing chaos
(2) the activity levels varying that strongly also make me think that, because i guess i think town is more ~consistent~ in their posting, while scum will post a lot if necessary but doesn't mind just ~dropping the posting~ if they are able to / can get away with it

obviously, this "case" relies on assumptions that (1) town, if by themselves, will be able to find each other and (2) town is more consistent in posting and won't as easily drop the game, *and* scum *will* drop the game if given the opportunity.

i'll admit i'm not... extremely confident in this theory, but eh. felt it would be of use to at least get it out there.

How did you come to this conclusion without first assuming/knowing that iconeum, ari, and username are town?
How does nobody posting in 12 hours mean anything? Most people are not spending more than half of their day on this website.

[dostin]

That's reasonable, Ico.

I'm coming around to the idea of Scum!Bugs based on their interaction with the Dostin wagon. Provided the latter is town, I think there has to be one scum in the following 3 people who all voted on the same page to put him to E-1. Those people were User, Datisi and Bugs, in that order. Out of them, Bugs currently looks the worst.

Follow this with the whole post with the qualifier "If Dostin is town, then this could be scum!datisi being opportunistic" and it just looks like a scummy way to set up a "trajectory" on Datisi on a flip they know will be green.

This leads me to believe that there is only one scum between Dostin and Bugs.

What makes me hesitant on Bugs is that they are currently being SRed by almost everyone. This is LHF... but I don't want to fall into that trap of not eliminating there just because of that.

If Bugs flips scum, I think that the next scum is within Datisi/Kookie since both of them are trying to implicate the other as the partner. That might be bad logic. I don't know. It feels right to me though. I'm pretty sure a Bugs red flip also clears Dostin.

If Dostin flips scum, I'll have to look back at who that implicates, but I'm pretty sure it's TGP? Not 100% on that. A red flip on Dostin also most likely clears User.

Why is it provided that I am town? I thought you thought I was scum? This whole post is about me being town and you don't even know what you'd do if I'm scum. So why do you, the person who started voting me first, have a plan for when I flip town but not for if I was scum?

[dostin]

re uncrowned: /shrug, at the moment, i'd say "everyone"? the game went 12 hours without posts (259-260), meaning nobody posted. i remember seeing that and thinking it was weird. gut is telling me that's more likely to happen if scum's in the more active slots driving the game.

if i had more faith in this, maybe i'd start checking to see who usually posts at that time window, but eh...

Why did you have all the energy and willpower to make that long post for everyone to see but you won't do the easy part of making your words have actual meaning by applying it to the game.

[dostin]

In post 350, dostin wrote:
I didn't really remember that username was in this game but I do remember liking their first post it sounded like smart thinking.

Ari looks like town because of his joking around before going away for the weekend without doing anything serious. If I did that as mafia I would be way too paranoid that people thought I was scum while I'm gone.


yeah, this sounds like dostin got caught out claiming townreads on players he has no business townreading and is scrambling to make up reasons after the fact. i guess i can see the reasoning on Ari being a thing that someone might think, but his read on me really does not make sense.

my first post was an accusation directed at kookiemonster, who dostin has stated as a townread for... some reason, that he will apparently explain later (when?). if he thought my first post was smart thinking, it obviously wasn't smart enough to influence his reads any. but since that's the only post i've made that isn't calling him scum, it kind of had to be his go to for explaining why he would townread me. i do not buy it.

I never claimed townreads like that, I said I thought TGP and Uncrowned and maybe iconeum looked scummy and datisi asked about people I didn't mention like you and ari. You should click back in the topic and read stuff before making accusations because this looks like you are not really paying attention and are calling me scum just because lots of other people are.

You can think something is smart and well thought out without agreeing to it.

[dostin]

alright i'm p sure dostin is scum and that mine is a scum driven counterwagon just judging by development speeds and whatnot

Who is the scum driving your wagon? Don't be like Uncrowned and Datisi just saying things about the game without looking at who is actually doing what and why.

And didn't you just say I was town? If I look town to you and it's just because of the wagon you think I look scum then there should be a better reason you can give for why the wagon on you is lead by scum.

[dostin]

Dostin do you have a lot of off-site mafia experience?
VOTE: unvote

No I don't.

[dostin]

I am convinced there is scum between Dostin and Bugs and the above post is pretty much confirming that idea for me.

Again with this? All you are saying is "Either Bugs is town or scum and either Dostin is town or scum" and you never explain yourself. So you're saying nothing, and saying nothing else to explain that nothing. Why is one of us scum? How can you be so sure of that but have no clue who it is? You are still refusing to explain this.

[dostin]

1. Would you think I looked like town if I questioned every single time somebody said something about me? Why did you deserve a response from me if you weren't even willing to engage me directly yourself? And why am I the only one at fault for that according to you?

2. Datisi (and you I think) asked me to elaborate so I explained. I would not have brought up those points if nobody asks. I'm sure everyone gets gut reads for stupid reasons sometimes that are hard to explain why it makes you so sure. Not saying that I was sure at all because that was one of my very first posts I'm pretty sure and not a lot happened in the game yet but I didn't think it's really that much of stretch, I don't really remember though.

3. What is the reason a mafia would have to go back to the first vote against them way later when other people give them pressure? That doesn't make sense it would just draw more attention to you. How does that make me scum?

You are attacking my word choice which is a pretty scummy thing to go on for a whole paragraph about. You can't "prove" anything but you can support it or at least make an attempt to prove the best you can, like in a court with lawyers.

It's not that you did or didn't respond to it, it's the TIMING of when you chose to respond. You completely ignored the vote and then decided to call it "unfair" only after you had been pressured. How come it became unfair to you after you had been pressured? Why wasn't it unfair to you as soon as I did it?

And yeah, Datisi asked you to elaborate on it BECAUSE you had said it in the first place. So you did actually bring it up.

Mafia would most definitely try to shade someone's vote against them if they're worried they're getting lynched. How they go about defending themselves is player specific and I have zero meta on you. What, are they just going to sit there and let it happen? I was the beginning of your wagon and the main reason it was happening, it makes sense that you'd go to the root of the problem.

And yeah, I went in on your word choice because it makes zero sense. I gave my reasoning and you don't like it. That's whatever. You're not going to agree with me because it's my read on you. You can't sit there and talk about "proof" when I've already given my point of view on why I think you're scum. There is no proof until you flip. That's that.

Even now your case is still just defending yourself with questions and wine ("what is the reason a mafia would have to go back to the first vote" and "Would you think I looked like town if I questioned every single time someone said something about me?") that's giving me no confidence in your slot at all.

Are you saying nothing else happened between when you first voted me and when I said your reasons were bad? When I started seeing you as suspicious it's because you were asking other people about me and had never asked me a single thing before and it was really really weird like you were trying to just get other players to vote me instead of actually trying to figure out if I'm town or give other people a chance to figure it out.

And before that, Datisi asked me who my 3 strongest reads were. We can keep going farther back but that would be a dumb argument.

No it still doesn't make sense at all why I would want to call attention to myself and start a fight like this if I were mafia or if I thought you were town and you haven't explained why that does make sense.

[dostin]

Ok? I asked a question about why he said that, not about what t/s means or why interactions are important. Why are you defending Datisi so much?

I don't know why you are both just throwing game theory labels on every interaction and then getting upset when I say that's not an explanation. I don't care if you are hypothesizing I know that's a big part of the game but I don't like how you are both sometimes avoiding giving real opinions instead of applying theories to things without having to use your own words.

That last question doesn't make any sense those are two different things.

Oh boy.

You do realize to Datisi that... from his perspective... you and me being a TvS WAS a "real thing" that was happening, right? I'm not throwing game theory, I'm literally trying to explain that that WAS Datisi's take on our interactions. You discredited the notion entirely by saying "if you don't even know who is who?" which is why I explained that people are going to have takes on stuff like that, because it is important.

And yes, the last question does actually make sense because you're putting us in a lose-lose situation where you can shade us no matter what we do.

If we give you a "hypothetical" you say that it's just that - a hypothetical, meaning that to you, it's not worth anything.

But when we give an actual take on your case, that too is apparently unfair. So what are we supposed to do, exactly?

I understand that was Datisi's take on our interactions and I'm saying it's a bad take and Datisi is unable to actually explain or even just point to what things make him think that way and I think it's really weird that you keep defending him about it when it's perfectly reasonable for me to ask for explanation when somebody says something without explaining that.

It doesn't make sense as a question I mean. I don't know how to explain it but you're comparing two things that are totally different as if it has to be one way or the other or something.

Why are you getting mad and whiney that I am dismantling your case against me?

[dostin]

You say interactions are the biggest part of the game, but you don't see why I would ask a question besides wanting to know the answer?

You need to stop reaching.

The phrasing "useless question" was because there was already an implied answer that you just chose to ignore. Like I said, if I say something like "Hm, "overblown reactions" are something that I think can come from both town and scum, so to me it's NAI" and then I don't follow up with anything like "However, in this situation I think that it COULD be scum-indicative for ... " then that already lets you know that I didn't find it AI.

You're falling apart here.

VOTE: Dostin

You look like you're still trying to defend yourself here and you didn't pay attention to what I just said. I wasn't going to tell you but you leave me no choice than to just say it. I was asking to see what your answer was (which I already heavily implied in the post where I voted you) but instead of giving an answer which according to you should have been easy for you to do since the question was apparently already answered, you are getting defensive and angry and ignoring what I'm actually accusing you of.

[dostin]

For someone who is adamant about needing "evidence" your reads are manufactured and have no backing behind them. You hand out TRs to people and then give minimal reasoning as to why they're town. The other time you were asked for reads, your SRs were Me (who has been directly pushing against you) and then on two slots that were inactive at the time and couldn't engage with you at all. Again, with nothing behind the reads.

You can't even keep your style consistent. For someone all about the evidence, you're severely lacking it when giving your "totally not BS 100% legitimate townreads"

I'm happy to flip this once Ari has completed catching up.

When was I handing out townreads? I said not a lot of people looked scummy to me. You and Datisi who I think are both scum forced me to give reasons for that when I didn't have any reasons in the first place. This all feels like one big trap.

[dostin]

I'm typically not one to deathtunnel but I just can't see this coming from a town player who is actively trying to solve the game. Nothing adds up here. I'll take the blame if this is wrong but I just don't see a townie engaging me in this manner at all.

I thought you had a whole plan for when I die and reveal to be town, but now you would just give up?

[dostin]

but I don't like how you are both sometimes avoiding giving real opinions instead of applying theories to things without having to use your own words.

Also the fact you come at me for this is comical considering that at most, maybe 5 of my posts have been about game theory? The rest has been questions, reads, pushes or comments on other interactions. All heavily game-related issues. Naturally you'd try and twist it though to make it seem as though my content has been meaningless, right?

I said sometimes I never ever said that was all you are doing this game. You are being a hypocrite by telling me to stop twisting your words. Most of the times you did that you were defending Datisi or trying to get people to vote for me.

[dostin]

I don't know why you are both just throwing game theory labels on every interaction and then getting upset when I say that's not an explanation. I don't care if you are hypothesizing I know that's a big part of the game but I don't like how you are both sometimes avoiding giving real opinions instead of applying theories to things without having to use your own words.

like, my issue is, how do you call "i think dostin/uncrowned are likely to be t/s" a "game theory label"? how is solely using mafia lingo "game theory label"? like, i'm not avoiding giving a real opinion. my opinion *is* that you two are likely t/s. is the problem that i used the word "t/s" as opposed to "using my own words"? what even counts as a "real opinion" to you?

Refusing to explain something in your own words can definitely be a scumtell because mafia don't have real reasons when they are pushing a lie. It is harder to make an in-depth wordy explanation look genuine than it is to vaguely compare it to a scenario that happens sometimes in the game. You can't even point to anything that is a part of the process to coming to that conclusion. I think you are just saying things that you think you can get away with saying without an explanation because you don't want to look fake.

[dostin]

For my kookiemonster town read I will elaborate on later.

dostin, did you ever do this?

I don't remember if I did, but I don't remember the last thing kookiemonster has done in this game.

[dostin]

And my whole post wasn't about you being town. It was actions that made Bugs look scum. Hence why you're both in my elimpool. And that post explains why I don't believe you two could both be on the scumteam. Please stop trying to twist my posts.

I'm not twisting your points. The point of the post wasn't that I'm town but the scenario presented in the post assumes that I am town even though your entire game has been focusing on me being scum but you still didn't have any "next steps" for that probably because you know that I am town.

[dostin]

...I actually don't even want to engage anymore with you. You're ignoring everything I've said.

I've already made my cases on both of you in previous posts. What aren't you getting about this?

Anyone else but you in this game would agree that I've made my case on both your slots. It's clear as day. Do I need to go through my ISO and quote every single post on you two?

If you're not going to read properly then don't bother interacting with me at all. Thanks.

What are you talking about? Are you confused about post 463? I'm not talking about your ISO, the part in quotemarks is what I am saying "t/s" means to me. It is a very weak point and I seriously do not understand why you and Datisi are acting like it is not.

[dostin]

...I actually don't even want to engage anymore with you. You're ignoring everything I've said.

You can't accuse me of ignoring you when you say things like this while I am replying to almost all of your posts.

[dostin]

Spoiler:

Let's start here.

VOTE: Dostin

Tonally awkward and over-explainy on P1. Content with being TLed with actually delving into why someone would think that after only a couple of posts.

Let's start here.

VOTE: Dostin

Tonally awkward and over-explainy on P1. Content with being TLed with actually delving into why someone would think that after only a couple of posts.

i feel like this read while it's rationed out correctly and you seem town for it, is wrong because of reasons i may not talk about

Okay, talk to me about it in general terms though, without being too specific. Is it just something they usually do? Like a playstyle habit?

In post 36, bugspray wrote:
In post 22, TheGoldenParadox wrote:
i think datisi is town here. he's insanely nervous/anxious as scum from my knowledge and he seems much more relaxed

is it normal to be this tryhard on page 1?
VOTE: tgp

Why do you single out TGP for "tryharding" P1 but not Datisi?

Mind answering this, Bug?

@Datisi

Pretty sure that can come from either alignment. People can make logical posts and then make mistakes. I get how you might see it that way from a... tonal basis, I guess? Either way, my vote sticks.

Are you expecting something from Ico here btw? I think Post 81 is slight +town

@Datisi

Tone was the wrong word to use. I think I linked tone and general behavior too tightly, where I think that Dostin post you're TLing him off of is more the latter than the former.

As for the Ico post, I think it's a reasonable early game assumption for a town to make that I believe would be more probable to come from Town than Scum. While having an over-the-top reaction to a minor push isn't ultimately telling on an alignment, I do think it's a small thing that scum wouldn't bother to push on.

This is frustrated town here imo.

Datisi's post about the "shitpush" was valid and I agreed it was +scum for Kookie but this interaction seems TvT.

IAmAUsername's vote is pretty believable, I think. The reasoning is surface level but we are early game. However I don't believe Kookie was pushing for the PL. It seemed more like an attempt at actual discussion even if it was kinda gross.

TGP do you think Datisi isn't all that capable of changing his behavior when he is scum? Since that seems to be what you're basing your TR on?

Datisi could you answer me about why you're uneasy on Ico?

i'm not uneasy about ico. he's currently as null as it gets. i'm just annoyed because in a couple of recent games, i (correctly) townread him very early, and i'd have liked if i got a read on him early again. sometimes it just doesn't happen.

Ah okay I get you. I misinterpreted.

Unrelated: What do you think the likelihood that Kookie is town but just made a poor read? I ask because I think I might be a bit biased towards the semi-AtE like posts they've made in terms of feeling condescended and how hard they're coming at you. Like I'm not sure scum doubles down on this push so aggressively, especially if you're town? I feel like scum would worry about how bad the push looks and try to appease you. Does that make sense or am I overcomplicating things?

Dostin casing of Datisi/Bugs teaming is a real stretch to the point where it doesn't feel organic in the slightest.

So FMPOV, scum!dostin sees towncrowned vote him early, for an admittedly minor reason. He feels no pressure. TGP and Datisi townlean him so he's feeling good and doesn't feel the need to respond.

Feeling comfortable, he makes that bad read on Datisi/Bugs.

He gets called out for it. Gets to E-1. NOW all of a sudden it's "unfair" that I'm voting you? Now you feel the need to reply, because you're on the chopping block?

Yeah. This is scum. We can wait for Ico/Ari to get back from. V/LA for more info/perspective but this is the flip we're making today.

Actually Dostin, here's a question.

Explain why TGP or Ico could be scum? Interesting how you go after two of the less active players and provide absolutely no reasoning whatsoever.

I didn't even realize how out of place and unfounded those reads were until Bugs brought it up lmao

Dats can you gimme the rundown on why Bugs is scum here?

300 & 309 are compelling. Bugs' interaction with the Dostin wagon especially would make me believe that there is only 1 scum between them.

I still lean toward Dostin being more likely than Bugs though. The whole reaction to my push seems fake. I don't know what town player would ignore a vote on them and then only feel the need to reply once their wagon has picked up.

Couple that with the weak reads without any backing behind them... and the fact they're on two slots who have barely posted? Makes it hard for me to believe that he's not scum.

Why are you asking me what kind of questions you should ask? Aren't you the one voting me? I can't tell you what reasons you have for voting me and I can't tell you what parts of it don't quite add up to you but I don't know why you hadn't talked to me at that point to try and make sure your vote was right.

You're still not talking to me here? Who are you talking to? You're just telling a made up story without even doing anything to try and make sure you can prove it. You're also not even giving me a chance to allow other to read me. By asking me questions you can make sure you're right and you can make other people see for themself that you are right or wrong. This angle doesn't make any sense if you are town and actually think I might be a mafia. You're twisting what actually happened by saying the "Feeling comfortable" part because I was answering a direct question I didn't randomly decide to theorize about Datisi/bugs on my own.

I've already given you my reasons, and you're just saying they're "made-up" and "don't make any sense" without actually telling me why town!you would:

1: Ignoring my vote on you.

2: Making a stretch case on Dats/Bugs while Kookie was being pressured - which FTR I believe is +Equity between you two.

3: Only deciding to interact with me once your wagon reached high pressure.

What exactly do you mean by "prove it" ??? This is Mafia. I can't "prove" anything until I see you flip. Unless I'm an investigative role with results on you, or there's conf!town with a result on you, there will never be a 100% chance that you are or aren't Mafia. This applies to any game on this site. I am going off of probabilities, and I can't imagine your behavior coming from a town who is actually trying to solve the game. You look like a scum who tried to avoid pressure and then shat themselves horribly when they realized that their wagon was picking up.

What was there to talk about with you when I first voted, would you say? I voted you for your awkward P1 entrance and posting style. I then followed that up with pushing on you later on in the game for specific reasons which... you still haven't really answered outside of "this is unfair" and "it doesn't make sense" which isn't much of anything at all.

I don't NEED to ask you anything. If I'm going to make a push because I have a read on you, I'm going to force the issue. If we sat around here asking 21 questions every time we had a read on someone, we'd get talked out of it 99 times out of 100 because then you get into paranoia and a game of "ahh shit they're posting really well now under pressure but I thought they started scummy" or things of that nature.

Even now your posting is shallow. You're trying to shade and discredit without actually pointing out what is wrong with the case.

Datisi is probably +town there for the paranoia on me, I'd imagine.

Dostin why haven't you voted yet?

I'm not actually sure what we're arguing here. You came at bugs really early for my liking. It's why you're technically closer to the bottom of my reads list than the top.

Here I'll do one:

Town->scum
Uncrown
User
Ari
Ico
Tgp
Dostin
Dats
Bugs

my question is how is ari 3rd top town honestly

Ari is closest to true neutral here.

This read list is concerning.

You're telling me you only have two TLs?

Ico can you give me something on anyone other than Bugs?

That's reasonable, Ico.

I'm coming around to the idea of Scum!Bugs based on their interaction with the Dostin wagon. Provided the latter is town, I think there has to be one scum in the following 3 people who all voted on the same page to put him to E-1. Those people were User, Datisi and Bugs, in that order. Out of them, Bugs currently looks the worst.

Follow this with the whole post with the qualifier "If Dostin is town, then this could be scum!datisi being opportunistic" and it just looks like a scummy way to set up a "trajectory" on Datisi on a flip they know will be green.

This leads me to believe that there is only one scum between Dostin and Bugs.

What makes me hesitant on Bugs is that they are currently being SRed by almost everyone. This is LHF... but I don't want to fall into that trap of not eliminating there just because of that.

If Bugs flips scum, I think that the next scum is within Datisi/Kookie since both of them are trying to implicate the other as the partner. That might be bad logic. I don't know. It feels right to me though. I'm pretty sure a Bugs red flip also clears Dostin.

If Dostin flips scum, I'll have to look back at who that implicates, but I'm pretty sure it's TGP? Not 100% on that. A red flip on Dostin also most likely clears User.

I think this is more beneficial given slot interactions atm.

VOTE: Bugspray

Bugs where are you at on Dostin right now?

hm. i see it in the exact opposite way from you - if bugs is scum, dostin is likely scum, but i tr dostin on play and vastly prefer a bugs flip here.

Fair bit earlier in the game, but interesting nonetheless. What made you think this, TGP?

Also, TGP/Dostin have less partner equity than I thought they did upon rereading.

very interested to know what led you to this conclusion.

I think TGP gave Dostin an early TR that is a bit unwarranted, which I gave slight +equity. Same with Datisi although he seemed like he believed in it more, whereas TGP was sheeping it.

However, Dostin's subsequent calling out of TGP later on in their posting leads me to believe that there is less likelihood. This was in post 352.

The fact that Dostin called out this behavior by TGP makes me think there's a decent chance they're not a team. I don't think he'd bother to do that if they were teamed together. I'm not ruling it out, but I definitely do think it's less likely than I thought previously.

This is just picking SOME of the stuff out of my ISO that has been almost 100% game-related, and has aimed at solving either you, Bugs, or another slot in this game.

You are absolutely delusional if you think that this is all hypothetical, or that I haven't explained my reasoning.

I've developed reads through questions, interactions, wagons and reactions to my pushes.

Trying to boil down all of my posting in this game as "nothing" or "filler" or "theoretical" is complete bullshit and you know it.

I'm actually going to be disappointed if you're town because it's clear you have no intentions of engaging with me in good faith or actually paying attention to what I've been saying this entire game.

I don't think it's going to matter though because you're only furthering my suspicions that you're scum at this point.

I don't care. None of that is what I'm talking about at all. You are being such a hypocrite. You complain that I am ignoring you and twisting words but that is all you have been doing to me (ignoring my points and questions and twisting my meaning over and over and over again) since I started fighting back against your push against me. It is so obvious that you are scum and you didn't expect me to fight back when you started trying from the very first page of the game to get me voted out today.

[dostin]

...holy shit dude. Are you being serious right now?

Me: Hey! I don't someone reacted in an "overblown" way is alignment indicative!

You: What does it mean for Datisi's alignment?

Do you see how that is a ridiculous question? If I THOUGHT it was AI for Datisi, I would've said something about it in the same post. I would have said:

Me: Hey! Normally, I don't think someone reacting in that way is alignment indicative. HOWEVER, I think in this case it could show that Datisi is [insert alignment here] because of this this & this

What aren't you getting about this?

I feel like you keep pretending to be dense to avoid answering to my findings and accusations. You can't tell me what I'm allowed to ask when I am scumhunting. It is a fundamental of this game to ask people questions and figure out what alignment they are. That is not what you have been doing against me at all this whole game. At first you avoided talking to me at all and just tried to convince everyone to follow you, and now all you are doing is defending yourself and trying to imply that I'm an idiot and scum.

[dostin]

HOLD UP

"Forced" you to give reasons?

No no no.

That's not how this works.

If you don't have reasons, just say that. We didn't force anything out of you. We just asked you. You know, like how you said earlier? Asking questions helps you sort things? Oh, but it's fine when you do it, yeah?

This is so hypocritical lmao

You are still putting so many words in my mouth and being such a hypocrite by doing that. Maybe you are even projecting with this post here I don't know. I never complained about being asked those questions, I answered them. When you said my answers were weak, I explained why they were weak. This post makes it out to be like I was the one getting defensive about being asked to explain myself but it is just

you

who is being defensive.

[dostin]

This misrepping is ridiculous. WHERE did I say I would give up? You're literally pulling shit from thin air and trying to act as if it's what I'm saying. You may as well go and start typing in the sections where you're quoting me and passing it off as something I wrote. That's how far you're stretching this BS.

You keep getting angry at the smallest semantics because I'm right and you have nothing to say against my actual points.

[dostin]

And again you are choosing a meaning to assign to my words and getting upset about it instead of addressing a single point I brought up. You are so obvious scum right now.

[dostin]

Turning my words against me feels like a trap. I never said asking me question was a trap. You are reaching so hard.

[dostin]

Well apparently everything I'm saying to you is either "nothing", a "hypothetical" or "has no backing behind it" so where exactly am I supposed to pick out that it's "sometimes" because your entire argument against me has been based on having no evidence?

You go back on things you say like your terrible manufactured reads and now you're doing the same here.

How is it scummy for me to go back on things when you are clearly either not understanding me or intentionally misrepresenting what I am saying? If you are twisting my words I am going to make sure they are clarified and set in stone.

[dostin]

For someone who is adamant about needing "evidence" your reads are manufactured and have no backing behind them. You hand out TRs to people and then give minimal reasoning as to why they're town. The other time you were asked for reads, your SRs were Me (who has been directly pushing against you) and then on two slots that were inactive at the time and couldn't engage with you at all. Again, with nothing behind the reads.

You can't even keep your style consistent. For someone all about the evidence, you're severely lacking it when giving your "totally not BS 100% legitimate townreads"

I'm happy to flip this once Ari has completed catching up.

When was I handing out townreads? I said not a lot of people looked scummy to me. You and Datisi who I think are both scum forced me to give reasons for that when I didn't have any reasons in the first place. This all feels like one big trap.

okay, i'm convinced.

intent dostin

, but i will wait until ari catches up.

i was townreading you quite hard, but this post threw me because the logic is so... convoluted. "you and datisi who i think are both scum forced me" so you're saying both scum are trying to "trap" you together, and you're scumreading two of the most active and solvey slots in the game just because they're pressuring you? this is a scumpost, and iaaun is correct that this slot has tons of partner equity with bugs.

This reversal on your read on me is so bad and confusing and doesn't make any sense. You were just saying how towny I was and how bad bugspray's vote on me was. Now you're trying to get me voted out?

[dostin]

What are you talking about? Are you confused about post 463? I'm not talking about your ISO, the part in quotemarks is what I am saying "t/s" means to me. It is a very weak point and I seriously do not understand why you and Datisi are acting like it is not.

Here's why this makes no sense.

When Datisi said you and me were a TvS you jumped on it and called it a weak point... but uhh, aren't you actually admitting he's correct on it being a TvS if you're adamant about me being Scum?

And I'm not talking about ignoring in the literal sense. It's about the content in your posts.

And now you're just repeating what I'm saying back to me like it gives you credit or something.

By the way, Scum!Me would never bother going after your slot when I could've easily piled on one of Bugs/Kookie for a lynch. But sure, believe it if you like.

That first point is the weakest point anyone has brought up this entire game. You are grasping at so many straws and it looks pretty hilarious. You are intentionally missing so many obvious points to continue your narrative. How does me thinking you're scum mean I don't want Datisi to give a better explanation? I am laughing right now because that point was so desperate and annoying.

Where am I repeating your words? And why would I do that for town credit when I think all of your words are scum words?

[dostin]

Turning my words against me feels like a trap.

What words? That you thought Bugs/Datisi was a SvS?

Yeah, sorry buddy. That's not gonna cut it here. You don't get to come up with a manufactured read that you don't actually believe in, get questioned about it, and then try change the narrative and whine about how you were "FORCED" into it.

Nah, you just called out on your shit.

Anyway, you gonna make a claim? Because TGP is about to hammer you.

You are the only person whining here and it very annoying talking to you when all you do is ignore my real points and look for word choices and other ridiculous things to call me out on. I can't believe nobody is seeing you are so obvious desperate mafia here.

What makes you think TGP is about to hammer me? I don't think they are posting right now.

[dostin]

I'm not going to just tell mafia what role I am

[dostin]

That's why it's so frustrating to me. You are being the hypocrite here and are obvious mafia. I'm a Bodyguard, and I'm an Officer (I won't say which one because I don't like giving away all my information just because you asked but I'm scared somebody will vote me if I don't say what role I am fast enough)

[dostin]

You should stop voting me. If TGP is mafia they might still hammer me because I'm important to the town.

[dostin]

roles and ranks are NAI in this game, no?

so why does one drop a scumread that you spent *that* much time and energy in based on a NAI claim?

If I was a mafia bodyguard I wouldn't have told you I'm an officer.

[dostin]

ok, i'll give you a new one. which one do you think is more likely: scum!datisi deciding to take a stance but prepare zero reasoning for it in case he's pushed on it, or town!datisi getting a feeling that he can't quite explain and won't try to? like, if you're gonna scumread me for every single thought i throw out that i don't properly back up, we're in for a long game.

That's a good point. I think if you were making things up as mafia you might be more careful to make your words more believable.

[dostin]

Well, given I think Bugs and Dostin has 1 scum between them, I don't think flipping the claimed officer + PR is worth the risk when there's someone who has also been rather scummy that we could opt for.

Maybe that thinking is too passive? Idk. I'm not opposed to lynching him based on play but the risk of scum potentially getting closer to their wincon is one that is sticking with me a bit.

Why would you still vote me out? Mafia will probably kill me or I might die from using my bodyguard power.

[dostin]

interested in that massive +town equity for UC

ok. so. imagine you're scumcrowned. you're pretty widely townread, and one of the rare people scumreading you is under intent due to your own push. the person claims bodyguard officer. luckily for you, this is not an usual setup where PR claims are mostly town and can be self-resolving and therefore it's very difficult to get one of them executed day one (cough), this is ~chain of command~. as scumcrowned, do you:

(a) assert how PR/officer claims have zero correlation with one's alignment, assert how you have such a strong scumread on dostin you want to see him eat rope anyway. this would (1) get rid of the one person that has the correct read on you, without it having the attention-draw of a nightkill, (2) get rid of a protective, (3) either get you closer to the secondary win condition (kill all officers - remember the last run?) or possibly get you closer to holding control of the PRs. (assuming the captain ain't scum.)

(b) unvote and go "lol ok"

pedit: uncrowned did you just make my towncase on you go down the toilet

I think he might have forgot that scum can have roles as well in this game.

[dostin]

I was ordered to protect Datisi. I obeyed.

[dostin]

hot take

there's scum with an officer role

I think this might have a chance of being true. I had another similar idea that might be true but I don't know how probable it is. What if the other power role is a protective role like Doctor or Jailkeeper and the mafia have it? Maybe I wasn't killed because then whenever that role has to claim later and pretend to be a town role, people will ask why didn't they protect me if I claimed a role and a rank and was still killed on Night 1.

[dostin]

I feel like Ari + Dostin could be a possible team that would do this, considering Dostin is a newer player (...right? I think?) and Ari hasn't been totally engaged in this game, meaning that they may not be super aware of the gamestate and what's going on. I think there's a decent chance one of these is scum at the least, as I think a scumteam would most likely need at least one of them on it to even consider shooting Bugs last night.

I actually think it's probably one of the above + TGP who are the team.

You thought I was scum for a long time and people said it was kind of weird when you backed off after I claimed my role because it didn't necessarily mean I'm town. You made lots of points against me all game so far. I don't think you said a lot about Ari. Why are we on the same level for you now and why aren't you talking about any more details?

[dostin]

people will ask why didn't they protect me

these questions would be aimed at the captain, not the PR themselves though. unless the question is if captain ordered them to protect you and they disobeyed...

I forgot about that. Maybe there has to be an officer who is mafia for my theory to work now but I will have to look at the setup closely again later because I don't know.

[dostin]

Ari hasn't seemed very solvey at all but that's probably a byproduct of inactivity, and I'm not that confident in my scumhunting to distinguish between scum inactivity and town activity.

Dostin imo still had a super scummy D1 and uhh... I'm kind of confused about why you'd obey an order to protect Datisi? Didn't you SR him hard?

If I didn't obey the order and then I died then nobody would know who I targeted because I didn't say anything before the Day ended or hide any hints in my posts. I did think it is a weird choice.

[dostin]

I think that's a reasonable assumption to make.

Kind of interested in the fact that Dostin isn't dead today.

And that he'd obey an order to protect you when you were his second highest scumread.

Who are you asking? Are you just trying to see if anyone still wants to vote me out today?

[dostin]

hot take

there's scum with an officer role

I think this might have a chance of being true. I had another similar idea that might be true but I don't know how probable it is. What if the other power role is a protective role like Doctor or Jailkeeper and the mafia have it? Maybe I wasn't killed because then whenever that role has to claim later and pretend to be a town role, people will ask why didn't they protect me if I claimed a role and a rank and was still killed on Night 1.

Ok I thought about it and if the Captain is a mafia then the protective if there is one would find it weird if they weren't ordered to protect me so they have to. If there is a protective role and they're the mafia then they would have to obey of course and they would know who to not target for the kill. But there's a 50% chance there is no other protective role besides me so all in all maybe this doesn't point to anything really.

[dostin]

Ari hasn't seemed very solvey at all but that's probably a byproduct of inactivity, and I'm not that confident in my scumhunting to distinguish between scum inactivity and town activity.

Dostin imo still had a super scummy D1 and uhh... I'm kind of confused about why you'd obey an order to protect Datisi? Didn't you SR him hard?

If I didn't obey the order and then I died then nobody would know who I targeted because I didn't say anything before the Day ended or hide any hints in my posts. I did think it is a weird choice.

...that's not how this works from what I can tell. The captain would still know?

If I disobeyed the Captain knows I disobeyed but they don't learn who we decide to target in stead.

[dostin]

Also I dislike that dostin keeps like, doubling back on not knowing how their own role works?? I just don't understand why, unless they're scum trying to towntell and failing.

When did I ever do that? I know exactly how my role works, you were the one who was just confused about it. When was I ever saying I was confused about how my role works? Are you reading closely?

[dostin]

Ari hasn't seemed very solvey at all but that's probably a byproduct of inactivity, and I'm not that confident in my scumhunting to distinguish between scum inactivity and town activity.

Dostin imo still had a super scummy D1 and uhh... I'm kind of confused about why you'd obey an order to protect Datisi? Didn't you SR him hard?

If I didn't obey the order and then I died then nobody would know who I targeted because I didn't say anything before the Day ended or hide any hints in my posts. I did think it is a weird choice.

...that's not how this works from what I can tell. The captain would still know?

If I disobeyed the Captain knows I disobeyed but they don't learn who we decide to target in stead.

I assumed if a PR disobeyed they forfeited their action that night

Oh ok I just looked at the rules again and I think you are right. I thought we would get to decide our own target if we didn't like what the Captain chose.

[dostin]

ari/dostin, can you two talk reads?

I think if you are the mafia then you are playing very well but I don't really think so as much anymore. I think Uncrowned is pretty scummy and was way scummier yesterday, and I think I can agree with a lot of the things that you are saying about iconeum. Ari is acting a little bit weird as well but I need to see some more posting from him before I can say for sure if I think he is town or mafia.

[dostin]

Also I dislike that dostin keeps like, doubling back on not knowing how their own role works?? I just don't understand why, unless they're scum trying to towntell and failing.

When did I ever do that? I know exactly how my role works, you were the one who was just confused about it. When was I ever saying I was confused about how my role works? Are you reading closely?

Literally rightnow you are showing you don't know how your role works as I have to assume both Datisi and I would not misread something like that.

You've shown time and time again that you have no clue how this setup works.

What you said happened in that first post to me still didn't ever happen even though I was wrong about what happens when you disobey an order. When did I double back on anything? And what is so hard to understand about someone being wrong about something? Why is the only explanation you can think of is that I am pretending to not understand how things work which doesn't even make any sense because how would that even mean I am town? Anybody can make mistakes and be wrong, but the fact that you didn't even consider that a possibility and said right away that all you can think of is that I am scum just pretending to not know things looks like you are just trying to make me look stupid. Maybe because Uncrowned just said one of us probably killed bugspray because we don't know what's going on apparently so you have to make me look worse than you.

[dostin]

Dostin/TGP have been so weird around each other. I can't decide if they have partner equity or not lmao

Dostin explain your progression on Datisi please

I don't remember very many of TGP's posts, but I just looked back and I saw when they reversed their read on me all of a sudden yesterday and I thought it felt really weird and didn't make any sense with the timing of it.

I thought Datisi was scummy very early in the game but most of his posts since then have been pretty towny, but I don't really think he is definitely town, I'm just a lot a lot less suspicious than I was at the very start of the game. His push against iconeum makes a lot of sense and the way he has treated my slot makes sense to me for town to be doing as well.

[dostin]

Also Dostin who do you think would want to kill Bugspray

I have no idea that kill makes not a lot of sense for any strategy I can think of. Maybe they thought that nobody would want to vote them out again after yesterday and everyone believed their claim, but I think there would have to be better reasons somewhere else.

[dostin]

Plus, the nature of the role means we may find out sooner than later and I'm willing to let that go.

Why would I ever let my own role kill me if I am scum?

[dostin]

So uhh if Datisi is town for how they've treated your slot... did you have any opinions on Datisis towncase on me after I unvoted you or no?

I don't really remember that, can you quote the post you're talking about for me please?

[dostin]

Plus, the nature of the role means we may find out sooner than later and I'm willing to let that go.

Why would I ever let my own role kill me if I am scum?

You're misunderstanding, probably because that's badly written on my part.

I think if you are town the chances of you dying in a protection are pretty high, and that can town confirm the captain and the one you protected if it happens.

If you're scum, I'm hoping you show that with play or with associatives once your partner flips.

Why did you bring it up as a reason to not suspect me in the first place if all it has to do with is if I am town I will probably die?

[dostin]

interested in that massive +town equity for UC

ok. so. imagine you're scumcrowned. you're pretty widely townread, and one of the rare people scumreading you is under intent due to your own push. the person claims bodyguard officer. luckily for you, this is not an usual setup where PR claims are mostly town and can be self-resolving and therefore it's very difficult to get one of them executed day one (cough), this is ~chain of command~. as scumcrowned, do you:

(a) assert how PR/officer claims have zero correlation with one's alignment, assert how you have such a strong scumread on dostin you want to see him eat rope anyway. this would (1) get rid of the one person that has the correct read on you, without it having the attention-draw of a nightkill, (2) get rid of a protective, (3) either get you closer to the secondary win condition (kill all officers - remember the last run?) or possibly get you closer to holding control of the PRs. (assuming the captain ain't scum.)

(b) unvote and go "lol ok"

pedit: uncrowned did you just make my towncase on you go down the toilet

this was it

do you think this is flawed

I'm curious because a while ago it seemed like you thought myself/Datisi was the solve

I already said it is flawed because you could have forgotten in the moment that my claim does not confirm that I am town by itself.

[dostin]

interested in that massive +town equity for UC

ok. so. imagine you're scumcrowned. you're pretty widely townread, and one of the rare people scumreading you is under intent due to your own push. the person claims bodyguard officer. luckily for you, this is not an usual setup where PR claims are mostly town and can be self-resolving and therefore it's very difficult to get one of them executed day one (cough), this is ~chain of command~. as scumcrowned, do you:

(a) assert how PR/officer claims have zero correlation with one's alignment, assert how you have such a strong scumread on dostin you want to see him eat rope anyway. this would (1) get rid of the one person that has the correct read on you, without it having the attention-draw of a nightkill, (2) get rid of a protective, (3) either get you closer to the secondary win condition (kill all officers - remember the last run?) or possibly get you closer to holding control of the PRs. (assuming the captain ain't scum.)

(b) unvote and go "lol ok"

pedit: uncrowned did you just make my towncase on you go down the toilet

I think he might have forgot that scum can have roles as well in this game.

You underestimate my attention to detail ):

[dostin]

Oh

I think that's a bad assumption to make because I'd say most of the setups I've been in can have scum PRs but okay

Who cares? Then why did you unvote after I claimed?

and even if there were no scum PRs it doesn't necessarily confirm you?

I never said it did but anyways the Captain knows I'm telling the truth about my role.

I'm kind of seeing a disconnect here because I don't think you can argue I cooked up this master plan to push you from the start of the game and then "forget" a key part of the game that would screw with said plan.

I never said it was a master plan when all you did was push someone the whole time who you thought might be easy to get people to vote out. You are blowing things out of proportion, getting way too defensive, putting words in my mouth, and implying that it's impossible for mafia to forget anything or make any mistakes which is definitely not true.

[dostin]

Anybody can make mistakes and be wrong, but the fact that you didn't even consider that a possibility and said right away that all you can think of is that I am scum just pretending to not know things looks like you are just trying to make me look stupid. Maybe because Uncrowned just said one of us probably killed bugspray because we don't know what's going on apparently so you have to make me look worse than you.

Ari you didn't say anything about this. I don't care if you are backing off in fact because you ignored the point when I called you out for that makes it even more scummy that you are chosing to back off.

[dostin]

Who cares? Then why did you unvote after I claimed?

Because I dont think it's worth the risk of potentially getting scum closer to their wincon and killing a PR that theoretically should be self resolving anyway?

I think you already explained yourself after it happened and yes that makes sense.

[dostin]

i haven't actually changed that many reads, and yeah i think it was just reevaluation
i mean it wasn't as much of a progression as me realizing how confbiased i was, reading my own post, and realizing it was just me saying "this is normally town but scum for dats" when it was just town i think

This much honesty and self-awareness feels very real to me in a way I don't think mafia could fake. I think there are better and less vulnerable explanations a mafia would give.

[dostin]

I don't see anything strongly one way or the other about iconeum and none of the arguments are that clear to me but right now Uncrowned looks a whole lot townier and I think Ari is very likely to be the mafia based on his last few posts.

[dostin]

Do you find TGP's progression on you weird at all? I remember you calling it into question when he switched his vote onto you, which I also found off to be honest.

I'm just not sure the trajectory behind reads has been all that good. Threatening to hammer you and then hammering Kookie... ugh it just screams scum to me but I don't know.

I don't think TGP ever answered my question about that if I am remembering things right. I did think it was weird but I thought that recent post was sort of an explanation for that.

[dostin]

I will VOTE: Aristopanes for now but I will read old posts from iconeum and TGP because I'm not really sure which one of them I think looks more like mafia.

[dostin]

A lot because I don't really remember a lot of both of their posts.

[dostin]

TGP/Ari almost guaranteed imo if this flips green

I agree but if it is iconeum then I think Ari is his partner.

[dostin]

Actually then I think iconeum would vote for himself instead of getting his partner to do it.