Micro 1042: Meme Wars | Fin!
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Val89 HeMafia Scum
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Val89
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Val89 HeMafia ScumHe
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I'm not seeing this one. Is this based on the bugspray vote?In post 81, Pavowski wrote:My RVS on STD is no longer RVS, it's now an AVS (actual vote, seriously)-
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Val89 HeMafia ScumHe
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We have two slots (MegA and Bugspray) claiming they miscounted the number of votes on STD's wagon. Looking back, I can see how Prisms vote being for "Dragons" could have caused some confusion on a quick glance, so I am willing to buy that one.In post 67, Prism wrote:That post makes absolutely no sense, from not being there at the time, not commenting on if, and counting multiple times.
I do find the other implication of Meg saying "I almost accidently hammered" interesting, however. Are you saying you didn't have any reason to actually suspect STD, but would have considered joining the wagon if your vote would have been E-2, but not when it would have E-1? Why?In post 71, MegAzumarill wrote:Value of E-1ing for no reason= ???-
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Val89 HeMafia ScumHe
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VOTE: Bugspray
Yeah, this feels off. How many times has Dwlee actively contributed, by that definition? In fact, what about me? It looks like one of those metrics thats makes sense on the surface, but it's obviously a bunch of crap after a moments reflection.
Is a Three wagon something you don't want taking off, for some reason?-
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Val89 HeMafia ScumHe
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I don't think three is all that wolfy, to borrow your term, but I do think the timing was notable. The whole "LETHAL WAGON" business was premature, and to my mind, obviously over the top in such a way that I can't help but wonder if it was actually calculated to draw attention; which isn't something I would usually expect from scum, but I can think of a small number of scenarios scum might chose to do so - one of which is if a wagon is about to take off on a powerfull PR, and a three wagon looked like it was just about to start rolling. I also considered the possibility it was aimed at distracting from the discussion around STD, but the Three votes were the immeadtely procceding posts.In post 140, Esooa wrote:The comment about three is interesting/maybe weird though as it implies three is wolfy or at least notable even though I don't think Val said anything about them
I do find myself musing today, however, that such a thing is less likey in a micro game and I might have been barking up the wrong tree with respect to motivation, but it still feelsoffto me.-
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Val89 HeMafia ScumHe
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I'm struggling to follow what this is supposed to mean, in particular the portion I've highlighted.In post 145, bugspray wrote:The story of what happened to Meg should be obvious btw.
meg saw the votes and though ooooh looks like STD as it e2 I should get spicy and e1
and then meg decided to count againand was like OH NO BUGSPRAY IS A SPICY CAN OF BUGSPRAY, BETTER NOT HAMMER! LOL!!!
and then meg just didn't vote STD because then we'd see a townie get yeeted with no useful info
What is a 'spicy can of bugspray', and why would your presence in the game affect Megs decision to put STD at E-1 or not?-
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Val89 HeMafia Scum
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Val89 HeMafia ScumHe
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I'm townreading Esooa.
I wasn't quite so sure about Prism, but I've realised my main hangup there - mainly, that if they were taking issue with Pav's defense of bugspray in 164 (it wasn't actually an unvote of bugspray, but three, but I can see Prism's intended meaning) because they consider the perfomative and agressive proactivity to be scum indicative in the case of bugspray, why would your first instinct be to start a new wagon on Pav over bugspray? - isn't all that big a deal, because when I looked more closely at the rest of the justification Prism gave for disliking Pav, I can see how Prism might consider a scumread on Pav, in aggregate, to be stronger.
I don't like this though, at all. It was this that prompted me to look closer at what Prism was saying about Pav, but I'm not understanding the reasoning for deducing scum is voting for him. I can understand if he was scumreading the two slots that voted for him anyway, but it appears that he is starting with the premise that scum (but only one scum?) is on his wagon and then try and read which of the two it is from there, which doesn't feel organic; particulary since I'm townreading Essoa, and I've convinced myself I don't really have a problem with Prism either.In post 211, Pavowski wrote:for now I kinda wanna say that one of these two voting me is probably scum
Unless what Prism pointed out in my posts is in fact as bad as Prism thinks it is, which I'm not sure it is
Which would give me Esooa....
I still think bugspray is flipping red, particulary since there doesn't appear to have been any context I've been missing that would explain my issue with 145. I've had a look, and the other possibility I was considering; that bugspray has a not_mafia-esqe reputation for hammering any wagon that hits E-1 (which might have explained some of dwlee's posting) appears to be a bust too. We should be looking there, next.
VOTE: Pavowski
That vote puts Pav at E-1-
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Val89 HeMafia Scum
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Val89 HeMafia ScumHe
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The rest of my reads, just in case.
I'm townreading Essoa as I said previously, overall this is my strongest read. I'm also townleaning Meg and Prism, and I would call Three a townlean independantly of the issue I have with the timing of bugspray's "can I interest you elsewhere" post but because of it, on a scum!bugspray flip, as I expect, I would be looking there more closely, as I would STD.
Dwlee is null currently, there was an initial temptation to consider 119 the laziest chainsaw defense there ever was; but I can see a possible town motivation for it if they were waiting to see who bites. Not much else going on with that slot.
STD scumlean, Pav and bugspray scum.-
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Val89 HeMafia ScumHe
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Val89
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Val89 HeMafia ScumHe
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Well, it's a bit moot now, but no, I wouldn't unvote as a 'gesture of goodwill'. I had a game previously where I correctly deduced someone was scrambling for more time in order to discuss things in the scum PT before they were forced to claim, so I know it happens, and I'm scumreading you.
At least I'm pretty sure this spews Meg as not being the person you are potentially waiting for if you do flip red, so there is that.-
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Val89 HeMafia ScumHe
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I liked your posting. Even though I disagree with some of the takes, I can see the logic behind them and how a townie would get there, with the exception of 138, where I can't see any angle anyone would find that AI, but there is effort being made to sniff out the AI things in even small ISOs. I know this is pre-flips, but the fact that both my strongest scumreads are gunning for your slot helps, too.In post 229, Esooa wrote:Interesting that you're town reading me. How come?
I am wondering though, out of everything I've posted,why this is the thing you wanted to ask about. I get that evaluating the reasons behind a read can help sort the slot giving it, and I wouldn't have raised an eyebrow if you had asked about any but your own.
Why move off Pav, here?-
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Val89 HeMafia Scum
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Val89 HeMafia ScumHe
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Pressure came off this one far too quick, folks.In post 243, Pavowski wrote:
I mean, this is just making it hard for me to take your vote on me seriously.In post 228, Val89 wrote:Well, it's a bit moot now, but no, I wouldn't unvote as a 'gesture of goodwill'. I had a game previously where, so I know it happens, and I'm scumreading you.I correctly deduced someone was scrambling for more time in order to discuss things in the scum PT before they were forced to claim
At least I'm pretty sure this spews Meg as not being the person you are potentially waiting for if you do flip red, so there is that.If I'm scum, and I lie, and you still push my lim through, you have the added value of seeing how the plist reacts to my claim.If you're town, what's the harm in giving me a little time to defend myself / get some more thoughts out of me?
Scum often feel more compelled to commit to their reads rather than entertain doubt, and this smacks of that to me.-
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Val89 HeMafia ScumHe
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To be more explicit, there was and still is absolutely nothing stopping you from defending yourself anyway, and you should have been doing so. Even if you think I am scum, you know I'm not going to be hammering you because I've just laid the E-1 vote.
There is absolutely nothing stopping you from defending yourself at E-1. The 'more thoughts' we get out of you I prefer to be your off-the-cuff thoughts, not ones you've had time to think about and/or discuss with a scum buddy.-
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Val89 HeMafia ScumHe
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The rest of your post? You mean:In post 249, Pavowski wrote:It's cool that you made a correct read in that situation in that game, but you are wrong this time. Nothing to say about the rest of my post, huh?
What do you think should have given me doubt between putting you at E-1 and now, exactly? Is "if you are town, pretty please unvote me so I can prepare my defense instead of giving it now" supposed to give me pause?In post 243, Pavowski wrote: Scum often feel more compelled to commit to their reads rather than entertain doubt, and this smacks of that to me.
I put you at E-1. I don't regret doing so. I think Meg and Esooa were premature in unvoting, and I think this framing demostrates why.In post 249, Pavowski wrote:Day 1 is less than half over and you were ready to ram through my elimination.
Let me ask you this - if you are town, were you happy with the state of the game a few hours ago?-
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Val89 HeMafia ScumHe
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Well, your assertion that I'm scum because I've remained commited to my read in 243 certainly seems to imply that. I note the continued framing of my E-1 vote as being 'gung-ho to ram through' your elimination, and hope others are also paying attention.In post 253, Pavowski wrote:The doubt shouldn't come from me. I could say anything as scum to save my skin. It should come from the makeup and the circumstances of the wagon you were all gung-ho to ram through.
And this is exactly my issue, and your attempt to frame me as scum for applying that pressure gives me no reason to believe I am on the wrong track.In post 253, Pavowski wrote:But -- as you pointed out -- the pressure is off, at least for now, so this point is now moot.
I don't see any reason you couldn't be scum with any of the slots of which I am suspicious. If you are interested as much as you say you are, then that imply you use beleive there is some value to be ascribed to D1 assocatives, and again, I ask (while flashing the side eyes at those who unvoted here) whether the descriminating power of those assocatives, and any claim that might be forthcoming, are higher when you are spewing them with the axe swinging over your head, or after you've had some time to prepare and perhaps discuss what to do with any scum partners. If youIn post 253, Pavowski wrote:I would still like to know who you think my partner is, since you're so confident I'm scum myself.aretown, I would expect you to share your unfiltered and accurate reads and thoughts regardless.-
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Val89 HeMafia ScumHe
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+1. I felt much the same about STDs claim, but I think it's the sort of thing that will sort itself out fairly quickly, and if they do turn out to be scum together then this game is basically going to take care of itselt. Let's put a pin in it for now.In post 263, Esooa wrote:don't know what I think about a role cop claim but sure
You can add Dwlee to that list, also.In post 256, Pavowski wrote:STD and Bugspray, then. Fair enough.
I said in my 218 I was reserving judgement on Dwlee, but clearly he wasn't waiting to see who might endorse his unexplained scumread of me as a gambit as I did consider he might be for a moment, and having seen the justification, it smells very strongly of after-the-fact justification, given I didn't reference my initial reaction to Dwlee's post until 218. It's also interesting to see the "scum is in X of ..." lists, and, more precisely, the fact Dwlee isn't mentioned in any. Perhaps it ought not be a suprise when I look at the slots giving those lists however - namely, bugspray and Pav.
Even if this was something Dwlee was thinking and not saying, then it is still something that proves itself false after a scum!bugspray flip anyway and given the recent posting, I am quite sure that is what we will see.In post 241, Dwlee99 wrote:
This is a chainsaw attack and then saying I'm chainsawing is funnyIn post 116, Val89 wrote:VOTE: Bugspray
Yeah, this feels off. How many times has Dwlee actively contributed, by that definition? In fact, what about me? It looks like one of those metrics thats makes sense on the surface, but it's obviously a bunch of crap after a moments reflection.
Is a Three wagon something you don't want taking off, for some reason?
Spoiler: Bugspray and the MegA non-vote
I'm not seeing any possible town motiviation for, having been asked a question about something that doesn't make sense, coming back having not posted in thread for over 48 hours to take the opposite position and make out like nothing happened.
VOTE: Bugspray-
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Val89 HeMafia ScumHe
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And I clearly don't.In post 274, Dwlee99 wrote:I think this is town Bugspray though.
I've given my reasons why I think bugspray is flipping red, strongly enough that I want to see that flip today knowing I've giving you ammo to push my own mislim if I am wrong, given your stated justification for scum reading me.
What are you reasons for thinking town?-
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Val89 HeMafia ScumHe
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Val89 HeMafia ScumHe
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Go on. I'll bite.In post 362, bugspray wrote:val's read on me is either fucking stupid or willfully ignorant
How so?-
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Val89 HeMafia ScumHe
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I'll hear it from you, also, Dwlee.In post 275, Val89 wrote:And I clearly don't.
I've given my reasons why I think bugspray is flipping red, strongly enough that I want to see that flip today knowing I've giving you ammo to push my own mislim if I am wrong, given your stated justification for scum reading me.
What are you reasons for thinking town?
Perhaps I'm overlooking something, but I see very little reason to why I would ever entertain a townread on bugspray, except perhaps the 'TSTBS' angle Pav has pushed twice now, that I've already considered myself.
The response from bugspray so far looks essentially to be a "lol" defense, and you shouldn't need me to tell you why, seeing that, I'm still happy bugspray is the best place for my vote.
Given I've been ignored once, I'm not convinced I'm having a good faith discussion rather than arguing with a buddy here, but let's see, shall we?-
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Val89 HeMafia ScumHe
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Val89 HeMafia ScumHe
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Are you waiting for me to repeat the question a third time?In post 371, Dwlee99 wrote:Sure-
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Val89 HeMafia ScumHe
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Alright, but how about a few words about why you were TRing bugspray in the first place?
What meta case did you think there was that you now seem to be telling us you might have been wrong about?
Give me something that might provide some measure of reassurance there has been at least some logical basis for the stances you've taken this game.-
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Val89 HeMafia Scum
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Yep. Bugspray is really doing solving here, right?
Pooky, I am assuming the "really scary lady who keeps staring daggers" is a reference to Esooa, and I have to ask: why do you want a wagon there?-
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Val89 HeMafia ScumHe
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Val89 HeMafia ScumHe
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Yes. Currently, STD is doing a fine job acting as a spokesperson and answering as I would, but since I don't know either of your alignments for certain, I stand by my assertion it would be better if you just outlined your case for everyone.In post 414, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:are you even reading my posts?
Do you have a problem doing so?-
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Val89 HeMafia ScumHe
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Val89 HeMafia ScumHe
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Oh, you were talking to me? Not STD now? I think that confusion proves my point further.
I've not gone through it with a fine toothcomb, but I've skimmed it, and my reaction was the one it appears STD had; that is to say, I couldn't detect any obvious difference between the two. I don't think I'm being dumb, either. As such, I think the onus is on you to indicate what difference you perceive because that looks like two on the record as saying there doesn't appear to be one now.-
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Val89
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Val89 HeMafia ScumHe
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Who do you want to tell you one thing they remember from Esooa's happy face iso?
Are you seriously telling you don't understand why this socaratic parallel conversation business we have going on now is just straight up bad, when you have to make posts like that one?
Pedit: You didn't specify who out of me or STD you were offering to talk 1v1 with, and you've apparently responded to both of us since. I think you are doing a stellar job of proving the exact point I was trying to make right now.
Please, state your case on what you perceive the difference between the two ISOs are, and why you think those differences are attributed to having rolled scum this time around. I'm not asking simply because I want to see if there is anything I've not seen yet that might throw doubt on my own read of Esooa and cause me to re-evaluate, but also to assist in reading your own slot.-
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Val89 HeMafia ScumHe
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I admitted to having only skimmed the happy face ISO, and I already said that having done so, I saw no immeadite difference between the two. You talk about it as if the two are night and day, and I thought there was a possibility you might actually have something. My initial interjection was more about feeling it was a bit of a waste of time watching you go back and forth with STD instead of you just stating your case, but I am fairly certain now you don't actually have anything at all, and you've been caught out as such.
The floor is still open for you to actually come up with the receipts here, and show me up to be the frozen scum you purport to find me. I do fully expect you to either ignore me, or try dodge your way out of doing so, however, and convict yourself in the process.
I don't think you have a legitimate case on Esooa. I'm not one for the memes myself, but I understand it is how some players choose to play. Your memes on Esooa however have been totally contentless from the start. I can see the game revelvence of memes like STDs 434, but pray tell, what exactly was 319 supposed to say about Esooa, or any of the other slots in this game, exactly?
I think Esooa is deserving of the townreads she's got. I think you don't have a case at all. I don't think bugspray has ever had a legitmate case on Esooa either. Furthermore, I'm thinking that the fact you and bugspray are both pushing Esooa while simulatanously throwing shade in my direction is not co-incidental, and I think I was right on the money about the motivation for bugsprays OTT 'NO! We are doing Essoa today goddamit!' post at 113 when Three started to pick up votes way back when. I think their vote on you today was some attempt at distancing given I've verbalised that suspicion already, and frankly, if they want to bus you, and nobody wants to join me in voting bugspray, then I'm happy to help them here.
Let's see what bugspray does here, shall we?
VOTE: PookyTheMagicalBear-
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Val89 HeMafia ScumHe
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Almost as if I called it...In post 438, Val89 wrote:I do fully expect you to either ignore me, or try dodge your way out of doing so, however, and convict yourself in the process.-
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Val89 HeMafia Scum
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Val89 HeMafia ScumHe
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Why is it you suppose Pooky hasn't just come up with the goods for us, and save you and everyone else the trouble?In post 468, MegAzumarill wrote:I've used this kind of push before as scum so I don't like Pooky atm for town, but I'll need to check if there's a legitimate difference in the iso.-
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Val89 HeMafia ScumHe
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Well, I take this...In post 471, MegAzumarill wrote:Not sure what you mean by this
...to mean you've recognised that it's worth looking at to see if Pooky had some reasonable basis for their Esooa read in order to potentially glean something about Pookies alignment, even if you think it's not going to be particulary helpful in sorting Esooa herself.MegAzumarill wrote: As for the stuff recently with pooky/esooa I'll need to go over the isos which I can do now. I've used this kind of push before as scum so I don't like Pooky atm for town, but I'll need to check if there's a legitimate difference in the iso. Either way I don't think it reflects on esooa's alignment much
If you have concluded there are some differences in the ISOs, but it's not a strong case, why do you suppose Pooky represented it this way:
Spoiler: Just scroll down
I don't see any real difference, but even if you think there are some differences, Pooky obviously overcooked the issue by a considerable margin, and my question to you (which was mostly hypothetical, since I think the answer is fairly obvious) is why, if Pooky thinks they have such a convincing case - they don't explain what difference it is they see when it's clear others aren't seeing it, rather than just continue to repeat the "just scoll down!" mantra.
I think Pooky has no real case on Esooa. The best they can do is to oversell some minor differences, if there are any at all, between her ISO in this game, and one in a Large Theme game she played 9 months ago. Pooky knows they've got nothing, but if they continue insisting there obviously is, and you are all stupid for not seeing it enough times, then at the very least we might all start buying Pooky beleives there is something there enough to excuse them joining bugsprays shitpush without arousing too much suspicion.
The "No! YOU are the scum!" and "I'm not reading your posts" reaction is the predictable (enough that I called it in advance) result I've seen when challenging scum a few times previously. I don't recall a time a town player has ever scumread me and said they would ignore me/implied I was an idiot and not worth responding to after being challenged.-
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Val89 HeMafia ScumHe
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Thought you didn't read walls?
You case on Esooa is hot garbage because there is no obvious difference in the ISOs, certainly none that qualify for a "dude, just scroll up" read. Your case on me is hot garbage because I wouldn't know that was the case without having doing the read/compare part.
Now, this is the part where you either point out those differences and show me up, or continue to try and dodge it and prove me right. Balls in your court.-
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Val89 HeMafia ScumHe
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Val89 HeMafia ScumHe
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In post 479, Val89 wrote:Addressed to nobody in particular-
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Val89 HeMafia ScumHe
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Good job missing the point, there Pav.In post 494, Pavowski wrote:We need a flip to get somewhere at this point.
You are settled on flipping me, fine. Likewise, I have my suspisions towards you. I'm no longer concerned about STD at this point. I had my concerns about the claim, but I suspect out of the two claims out there, if either are fake, the likleyhood is it is yours; having tailored yours to fit what STD was claiming not realising STDs claim was weird anyway, but whatever, there is a chance it's legit, and you might have a chance to prove yourself if so.
I don't really want to do Dwlee today. I'm certainly not townreading there, but out of all the slots on my radar, that's the one where I can see potential for town who just isn't engaging, and, particulary as it seems Esooa's last posting seemed to suggest she was advocating for some sort of policy lim rather than being sure they were scum, it's a slot I would want to leave for now. I am confident the mystery of their alignment isn't going to remain hazy forever. Prism has been MIA for days, and fine, there are circumstances, but it's clear they aren't reading the thread in any depth, and have I to roll my eyes when they then ask why people aren't sheeping them on Meg. That one ain't happening, although it looks like they have acknoldeged that at least.
My main issue is that I see the deadline ticking closer. I know I am not going to be around much tomorrow, if at all, and seeing I am the focus of one of the few viable wagons here, I have to decide if I care enough about this game to stay up past my bedtime. I realise I am probably playing in to your hands a bit here and making myself an easier target, but its the truth of the matter, and I'm findinging it difficult to care when I get the sense others don't. I appologise if that sense is misplaced.-
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Val89 HeMafia ScumHe
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Val89 HeMafia ScumHe
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Val89 HeMafia ScumHe
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Val89 HeMafia ScumHe
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Val89 HeMafia ScumHe
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Pooky WAS Three until the replacement??In post 512, MegAzumarill wrote:Why would this
Val89 wrote:
No, bugspray wanted us to move on to Esooa when three was under preasure. That can't be.
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Val89 HeMafia ScumHe
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Are you townreading bugspray?In post 517, MegAzumarill wrote:Okay but how would a townies actions make a s/s world of pooky and esooa be impossible?-
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Val89 HeMafia ScumHe
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Why? If this is a numbers thing, I orginally thought it would be a like a newbie game with a bit of spice, with 2 scum though; but we've seen the claims, and I saw a scummy slot slip the possibility of three scum (I thought it was Pav, but a quick look in the ISO and i can't find it), and suddently the world made a lot more sense.In post 520, MegAzumarill wrote:Bugspray would have to be town is pooky and esooa are both scum.
Remember, this is what the mod had to say about the setup.-
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Val89 HeMafia ScumHe
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Nevermind, it was bugspray, not Pav.In post 271, bugspray wrote:i don't think scum!meg exists in the same universe as 1, probably 2, scum in {esooa, prism, val} but i feel brain wack-
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Val89 HeMafia ScumHe
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"balanced, but a little swingy"
We are in danger of swinging in on that mechtalk you yourself said you wanted to avoid, but we've had two wagons today, both resulting in PR claims (all be them X-shot). Putting aside the fact I thought at least one was probably fake, this is obviously shaping up a PR heavy game. 3 scum could balance for that, while being swingy and you can't tell me with the way slots have been acting, that doesn't make more sense. I've kept my mouth shut so far for reasons probably simular to your own, and I can't comment on the normals of 5-8 years ago because I wasn't around at that time. If there is potential town (and I'm still townleaning on your slot) are labouring on a illusion it has to be 2 scum, I think now the time is to say somehing, and you have to explain why bugspray implied 3 scum, although admittedly that was also post-claim.-
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Val89 HeMafia ScumHe
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That's what "swingy" means, no? You can go very quick from winning to losing? I would say an "abundance of clears", or at least semi-clears, is something that is possible from a town-PR heavy setup, given what we know already.
In any case, I conceede the point that 2 scum mean bugsprays actions do not rule out a Pooky/Esooa team. I'm struggling to tally Esooa's declaration that she would vote you over Pooky with the townread I've had on that slot. Pooky has basically scum claimed at this point to my eyes. What is Esooa saying with that? That Pooky has good cause to meta case based on that Happy face game and she is scum? It makes no sense.-
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Val89 HeMafia ScumHe
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Val89 HeMafia ScumHe
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As far as compromise wagons go, I think bugspray absolutely has the best chance of hitting scum, regardless of number. Not sure it's entirely nessacary given 535 and Meg's indication they would hammer a Pooky wagon though.
Pedit: There you go. No need.-
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Val89 HeMafia ScumHe
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