VOTE: dats
Micro 1054 || Fuzzy Friends Coalition || Game Over!
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Menalque he/himSurvivorhe/him
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me either tbhIn post 57, Datisi wrote:
bad voteIn post 50, Menalque wrote:VOTE: dats
i can't believe you randed scum again"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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I feel that I should haveIn post 140, Datisi wrote:i had a vision about her first post being a townping and nobody from the people i didn't heal has surpassed it"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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Aha, you noticed!
Well, my dear friend, let me tell you: had I rolled scum, I would have been feeling more pressure to perform for this PL, so I would have made more of an effort with my posts, both in content and quantity;
I have not, in fact, done anything to try and make myself towny or advance the gamestate etc;
My behaviour as scum would be different to my actual behaviour here;
Therefore, I am town"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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Now, you might ask me: “but wait, Menalque, surely the moment that you had that thought process, for instance in the pre-game, couldn’t you then just explain the idea while doing nothing as scum, which would be in your interest because actually efforting and sounding like town takes skill which is harder than simply claiming that a thought process makes you town?”
To which my answer would be: “well, yes, technically, but really don’t worry about that because I promise it is true and I am town”"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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But I was burned out back thenIn post 148, Datisi wrote:due to witnessing your scum performance in that pyp game which had a similarly packed playerlist, i do not subscribe to "scum!mena would always tryhard"
also it is page five and less than 24 hours into the game which is way too fucking early for making such claims anyway
AND the reason i dislike your play is not the lack of effort but rather a tonal aspect, which is not as easy to overcome as "lol i would just do it"
therefore you are not townie and i am not convinced
Burned out and washed up in this damn city of angels"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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it’s almost like i said this!In post 152, Save The Dragons wrote:i don't think even you believe there is"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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There is an image format with a person on the right hand side and a line that starts in the bottom left and travels towards the head of the person but then at the last second goes up and over the person’s head before resuming its original flight path and at the end we see it’s no actually a line at all but an arrow and the arrow is labelled “the joke” and then the stick person is labelled “you”"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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I’m still confident when I have something that I feel confident inIn post 173, Aristeia wrote:@Mena
I know this might be unfair but I somewhat miss this version of you:
viewtopic.php?p=11923981&user_select%5B ... #p11923981
you feel like you're just not as confident tonally and I hope you can become your radiant townie self if you are town here.
Currently I’m still feeling it out, and nobody seems to be trying to kill relly or avoid putting him in coalition so there’s nothing to be insistent in relation to
Also we lost that game lol"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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I realised that I was wrong a decently high amount of the time and decided that until such a point that my reads are reliably very good in general, it's better to be upfront with that rather than manage to force things through because I want them even when they're wrongIn post 219, Aristeia wrote:I meant more as in confident in your abilities.
Also I don't think winning or losing is that important - you still played a very dashing game.
I also realised that people confidently declaring things that I knew were absolutely incorrect was a trigger point for me getting pissed off in the game, and that if I found that incredibly annoying I should probably try to stop doing it to others
I tend to downplay my game now, but still think that I get on a good read from time-to-time, just not in a way that stands out
***
anyway, Relly, why are you getting paranoid of skitt?"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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that's not exactly what I'm saying, I think:
I'm not saying I *wouldn't* heal either of them, just that the standard of evidence is necessarily higher, and with both of them it's a lot harder to sort them without any flips/real info. probably harder than anyone else here, no offence intended
that means that if I can find 4 more players and towntell myself, yes, I'd rather have those players in, even if one or two of them seemed towny but a *bit less* towny than Ari or skitter
if however there were, let's say, 4 very scummy seeming players by the time coalition deadline rolls round and both skitter and ari seemed decently town, I'd probably go with them being in there
it's a matter of degree, but I think it's well warranted to be sceptical of people with the best scumgames given the mech of the setup"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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like, re: skitt
what do you think you could have done to reliably sort skitter when she hasn't even got 30 posts yet? I'm really sceptical that literally anyone on site could say that they're confident she's town based on that amount/what she's done so far
that doesn't mean treat her like scum -- I advocate the opposite -- but even doubling up on that, it's going to be very hard to reliably read her as town based on what she's actually done without anything concrete"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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could you please say in your own words what you mean by Ari being thrown of balanceIn post 229, Not Known 15 wrote:It's the only thing able to throw off Ari off balance like that"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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okay, noted -- I'm inclined to still sort you as normal, but I'll maybe put a bit less of a BoP on you than I have sometimes in the past as acknowledgement of thatIn post 230, skitter30 wrote:I think mena is probably town
(Fwiw r.e. your approach to me: i think my game has gotten a bit worse recently, and that ari should probably be in the bucket you usually put me in, and that i'm probably not in the same tier as her these days, but i dont like inherently oppose or object to this approach to me, and can understand it
)"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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okay, here's my problem with this:In post 233, Irrelephant11 wrote:
To begin with: there's a 75% chance she's town.In post 228, Menalque wrote:like, re: skitt
what do you think you could have done to reliably sort skitter when she hasn't even got 30 posts yet? I'm really sceptical that literally anyone on site could say that they're confident she's town based on that amount/what she's done so far
that doesn't mean treat her like scum -- I advocate the opposite -- but even doubling up on that, it's going to be very hard to reliably read her as town based on what she's actually done without anything concrete
Then: She said things in the dat/ari/skit opening to the game that I agreed with (like "you two feel weird")
Following: She rightly pointed out that me saying "more people should heal me" is sketchy without really coming for me. If she's scum she probably should have come for me as a widely townread townie, unless she thinks I'll lead town off a cliff based on my current trajectory
Even if the second & third things are only worth like 2% points of towniness each, there's now a 79% chance she's town. Good enough to sit in my coalition until the paranoia comes for me
(1) any player has a higher chance of being town than scum looked at purely randomly -- if you applied this to each player you'd be right in each case that the random % chance was better for scum than town, but you'd still just be shooting in the dark at random, which only leads to whatever the non-charisma based version EV gives for win %. it is a good argument for why to deal with people in good faith though
(2) do you think that scum!skitter wouldn't be able to note the same "weirdness" between dats/ari? if scum!skitt would also be able to recognise these things, then why would she not also point them out? I think this is NAI
(3) I can see why that can be perceived as sketchy but don't really think it is. I don't see any reasons why scum!skitt would necessarily see anyone as being a big enough threat at this point in the game that she'd risk compromising herself by going for them off the bat
again, not saying I think skitter is scum here, but I don't think the arguments you've put forth for why she's better-than-rand % town are convincing"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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no, I appreciate the heads up, ty!In post 235, skitter30 wrote:
Sure. Like i said feel free to do with this as you will, i'm not saying you should change how you approach me, or not, i'm just sharing how i feel abt my game now vs in the pastIn post 232, Menalque wrote:
okay, noted -- I'm inclined to still sort you as normal, but I'll maybe put a bit less of a BoP on you than I have sometimes in the past as acknowledgement of thatIn post 230, skitter30 wrote:I think mena is probably town
(Fwiw r.e. your approach to me: i think my game has gotten a bit worse recently, and that ari should probably be in the bucket you usually put me in, and that i'm probably not in the same tier as her these days, but i dont like inherently oppose or object to this approach to me, and can understand it
)"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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In post 231, Menalque wrote:
could you please say in your own words what you mean by Ari being thrown of balanceIn post 229, Not Known 15 wrote:It's the only thing able to throw off Ari off balance like that"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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hmm
don't think I like this list
at all"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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I don't really have any scum reads yet but I don't think that any of (you, skitt, dats, nk15, std) have done enough to warrant inclusion on the coalition yet, with a marginally lower objection to dats being there than anyone elseIn post 263, Aristeia wrote:who do you scumread on the list?
"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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I would definitely agree with not writing them off -- in fact, I think the best way to catch them is often from trying to work with them instead of tunnelling them, or from just sort of observing and seeing what they do without trying to pressure them off the batIn post 261, Irrelephant11 wrote:You're right that I'm sort of misusing random chance as a way to read people as town. But on the other hand I think it IS actually a good reason to not just write off good scum players who are also good town players - since they're more likely to be town, you shouldn't be afraid to townread their towniness
I guess what I'm really trying to say is that there need to be hard reasons for TRs on them -- thoughts or progressions that would be very hard to fake as scum, behaviours that wouldn't come from scum -- narrowing down which of those things are actually likely/unlikely depending on alignment becomes easier with more information (i.e. flips, results). but I think on D1 in particular, reads of X person as being towny should be thoroughly interrogated because people are often wrong in mafia, gut is often wrong, and if gut can't be substantiated with reasons for why person would do a thing as town but not as scum then it shouldn't be trusted (unless person has an exceptionally high accuracy with this borne out across multiple games)"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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not reallyIn post 273, Aristeia wrote:
do you think any of mala/fire/you have done more than the people on my list?In post 272, Menalque wrote:I don't really have any scum reads yet but I don't think that any of (you, skitt, dats, nk15, std) have done enough to warrant inclusion on the coalition yet, with a marginally lower objection to dats being there than anyone else
hence why I don't like talking about a complete list at all"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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to me they are one and the sameIn post 279, Aristeia wrote:It feels like your complaint is more about that my list is too early rather than any issue with the quality?
I guess Relly asking you to heal some people makes sense for producing it, but I guess I'm still confused by why those names vs any of the other three names when most names haven't really done anything yet to be worthy of inclusion"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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is it going to annoy you if I tell you that I don't want to explain yet?In post 283, Datisi wrote:
i am interested in the boldedIn post 272, Menalque wrote:I don't really have any scum reads yet but I don't think that any of (you, skitt, dats, nk15, std) have done enough to warrant inclusion on the coalition yet,with a marginally lower objection to dats being there than anyone else"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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could you go into this more for me please?In post 292, Save The Dragons wrote:i don't agree with the point about skitter/ari being dangerous to add to a coalition but i like what they've said otherwise"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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I promise I'll explain why before the EoD1 and you can hold me to thatIn post 295, Datisi wrote:
it is very much going to annoy me, yesIn post 293, Menalque wrote:
is it going to annoy you if I tell you that I don't want to explain yet?In post 283, Datisi wrote:
i am interested in the boldedIn post 272, Menalque wrote:I don't really have any scum reads yet but I don't think that any of (you, skitt, dats, nk15, std) have done enough to warrant inclusion on the coalition yet,with a marginally lower objection to dats being there than anyone else
but alright, keep your secrets
prob before we even coalition, I'm just still wanting to let some stuff develop naturally"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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do you think that some people are stronger scum players than others?In post 300, Save The Dragons wrote:
i don't agree with this post, if they're townie they'll be townie. i believe in my ability to tr people and am not worried if they're scum because i believe in my ability to scum read them.In post 224, Menalque wrote:incidentally, my strategic principle going into this is that skitter/ari probably shouldn't be in the coalition unless there's a real dearth of towniness from other slots as they're the players I think it's hardest to catch on D1 if scum
i just don't hold people to higher/lower standard. anyone can surprise you
myselfIn post 301, Save The Dragons wrote:menalque gth who would you coalition?
irrelephant
okay, ty for the elaborationIn post 302, Aristeia wrote:In post 291, Menalque wrote:
to me they are one and the sameIn post 279, Aristeia wrote:It feels like your complaint is more about that my list is too early rather than any issue with the quality?
I guess Relly asking you to heal some people makes sense for producing it, but I guess I'm still confused by why those names vs any of the other three names when most names haven't really done anything yet to be worthy of inclusion
NK15 - I liked his thought about me being off balance because I am mafia with Datisi, I liked the singleminded focus on pushing that worldview - it feels like something he genuinely believes.
Relly - I don't really have any experience with him - he just feels tonally very townie and trying to move the game forward, just feels like he has takes and a natural progression that just clicks.
SaveTD - It's mostly the charisma. I liked that he's taking more of a leadership role and he's not trying to fade into the background.
Skitter - I guess I just don't think she engages with me this way as scum? It's a quite daring line of play and I think she would expect town!me to be able to figure out if she was faking suspicion of me because I am fairly decent at that and I'm somewhat ruthless so it could blow up for her. I don't think she needs to take such risks in this kind of game state.
Dats - I'm kind of biased here because it's Dats<3. I just feel like his thoughts flow in a very natural way and he doesn't feel uncomfortable to be present. I thought a lot of his posting as scum in the recently ended dance game felt like he couldn't wake to dip out of the thread and here he's just happy to mix it up with people."we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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I'm just trying to get my head round your stance on not being warier of certain peopleIn post 304, Save The Dragons wrote:
some people might have better records but i don't really care about other people's i care more about how i'm doingIn post 303, Menalque wrote:do you think that some people are stronger scum players than others?
I'm not in favour of complacency, but let's say you have player X who is well-known for being very good as scum and as town
and player Y who is well-known for seeming towny when town but having a terrible scumgame
let's say both players had identical (towny) ISOs
would you feel equally confident calling them both town?"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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Yes, but that’s not why I’m askingIn post 308, Aristeia wrote:I mean sure it makes sense to coalition 5 polarized players who are hard towntelling with high levels of certainty but we don't have that here.
you kind of have to work with what you have - not what you hope to have?
hmm okay tyIn post 309, Save The Dragons wrote:
yeah probably if they were both townie according to meIn post 307, Menalque wrote:
I'm just trying to get my head round your stance on not being warier of certain peopleIn post 304, Save The Dragons wrote:
some people might have better records but i don't really care about other people's i care more about how i'm doingIn post 303, Menalque wrote:do you think that some people are stronger scum players than others?
I'm not in favour of complacency, but let's say you have player X who is well-known for being very good as scum and as town
and player Y who is well-known for seeming towny when town but having a terrible scumgame
let's say both players had identical (towny) ISOs
would you feel equally confident calling them both town?"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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good progression:In post 343, Datisi wrote:@mena and whoever else has him as a strong townread, where am i wrong?
there's an internal consistency to the way he's thinking
110, 112 are talking about skitter being town
then I like him going to her as a TR for more info on me in 164
then a bit of time passes and next day he realises his reasons on skitt aren't very strong in posts 221, 225
he reflects on why he TRs her in 231
and then acknowledges the flaws in the argument while still saying that he wants to stick with it for now bc of practical past experience in 261, 262
^all that rings to me as a genuine thought process by steps
plus I liked his take on me, going from probably town but losing the towniness race (221) to upgrading me in 234 which also makes sense to me based on the interaction we were having
aside from that I think his ISO shows he's generally been trying to move the game forward (pro-town) and I liked 327 for being willing to engage while still explaining why he didn't think it would be worth it, which I also think is pro-town because that sort of bickering tends to kill thread
there's obviously always a degree of paranoia because scum are motivated in this setup to try and do townier things, so it's the combination of what seem to be to be real thought process combined with the pro-town stuff that elevates him to a strong TR for me"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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In post 259, Menalque wrote:In post 231, Menalque wrote:
could you please say in your own words what you mean by Ari being thrown of balanceIn post 229, Not Known 15 wrote:It's the only thing able to throw off Ari off balance like that"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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would like greater explanation of this pleaseIn post 409, skitter30 wrote:I kinda think scum is in fire, mala, nk15
Which kinda makes me think i have to include one of ari/dats"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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okay, I really wanna try to nap before I head off to bjj but I'll say this:
skitt I'm treating as town but don't really think she's done anything outside of range
I'm mostly susp of std from the people who have been kinda active, but could also be nk/mala who I really need more from to sort
if fire is maf (entirely possible, need to read the latest posts more carefully and probably ask some follow ups) then Ari is their partner imo
ari is like fine I guess and I think I'll be able to read her, currently a hair's breadth on the scummy side of null though
datisi, when you asked about the list earlier, the reason you were an exception wasn't bc I was TRing you at that point, but more because I objected more to everyone else than to you, but didn't want to elaborate as I wanted to allow some more natural interactions to play out w/out me influencing them
Relly I think I've explained enough on"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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I don't really do much meta anymore (apart from occasional backsliding where I just can't help myself re: people I have first hand meta with)In post 452, Irrelephant11 wrote:@menalque, aristeia, skitter
Who's fire's scum buddy? Or alternatively: please link me to a game where fireisredsir scumread most of the playerlist and was town
however, as stated, probably ari"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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You’re really gonna need a snappier acronym if you want this to catch on, RellyIn post 471, Irrelephant11 wrote:MWTTID"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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That would be the gist of this post and what I said in 455In post 483, Save The Dragons wrote:
do you think i'm not townIn post 480, Menalque wrote:I would love to know why StD is town"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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I looked at your ISO and I saw reads and comments, but I couldn’t really see a clear/not easily fakeable progression anywhere like I think I can in Relly’s ISO
If being totally honest I also didn’t really jive with your reaction to my 146 (or thereabouts, I’m doing the post number by memory)
And I thought your position of not worrying about people’s scumgames and just being able to read them regardless was plausible, but not reasonable"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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I’d like for some of the people who are townreading you to run through it for me, because as mentioned, I’m p far from locked in on you but rn I don’t feel comfortable with you on coalition
But I just figured as you were around I’d ask if there was anything you thought made it really obvious you were town that I was being boneheaded about"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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I mean I’m writing it off as mostly NAI but I think you’re wrong to take that position and I find it odd that you don’t find the reasons for why I think you’re wrong compellingIn post 494, Save The Dragons wrote:this is really a playstyle gripe and is nai as far as i'm concerned
It’s the not seeing why the reasons are compelling (or perhaps me not understanding why you don’t find them compelling) that makes me suspect they may be false reasons to justify putting ari/skitt into the coalition more easily, which I would want to do if scum because it would be good cover for me"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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In 146 I was trying to make it clear that I was aware that 145 was not actually a compelling argument at all
But once I’d had the idea of the argument, I decided to post it anyway, because it would be funny to make a post that was trash arguing for why I’m town, only to immediately give a wink wink nudge nudge acknowledgement that it wasn’t that at all"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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So it’s PoE rather than actively scumreading them?In post 529, skitter30 wrote:
Which bit? I see no strong reason to townread fire/mala/nk15. That's 3 players, with 6 remaining. If i exclude those 3 i need to include one of ari/dats to get to 5In post 420, Menalque wrote:
would like greater explanation of this pleaseIn post 409, skitter30 wrote:I kinda think scum is in fire, mala, nk15
Which kinda makes me think i have to include one of ari/dats
(And my current coalition i think is exactly pl - fire/mala/nk15 - ari/dats)"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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I am always and forever paranoid, but think it's actively unhelpful to indulge it for the sake of it -- I also think that unless it's rooted in specifics, it's not that helpful to bring up, as it gives scum an idea of the fault lines to attack if town is cohering (and in this setup, if a coalition is actually good)"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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In post 653, skitter30 wrote:Yeah i'm not sure it *helps* to dive deep into the paranoia, but i'm certainly feeling it, abt one person in particular"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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Ari I just don't think I've seen enough from overall to be in any way confident – if I absolutely had to, lean town UNLESS fire is scum in which case she's scumIn post 659, Irrelephant11 wrote:
Can you decide on std’s alignment pleaseIn post 651, Menalque wrote:I am always and forever paranoid, but think it's actively unhelpful to indulge it for the sake of it -- I also think that unless it's rooted in specifics, it's not that helpful to bring up, as it gives scum an idea of the fault lines to attack if town is cohering (and in this setup, if a coalition is actually good)
Also on aristeia’s? That would be v helpful thank you
StD I just need to sit down and read properly, let me see if I'm likely to have time before deadline"we knew everything... And we knew nothing."-
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