Micro 1058: Is This Thing Loaded? -- Game Over!

[Ph0enix]

Hello there. Let's do this.

VOTE: Galron

[Ph0enix]

Ah. So this mod kidnapped a previous competitor. Nice.

So full clarity I got no idea what the odds are for the vigilante thing or if the Bomb or Super saint can coexist. So I'm just gonna kill anyone scummy and hope for the best.

RULE CLARIFICATIONS:

• There is much randomization in this setup. To clarify:
  
• The distribution of roles will be completed through a series of rolls:
  
• Roll 1 determines how many vigs vs how many town roles are present. Subsequently,
  
• Each vigilante will have a random draw (coinflip) to determine if they are live or blank.
  
• Each remaining town role will have a random draw (coinflip) to determine if they are a bomb or a supersaint.
  
  
• It is therefore possible to have NO supersaints, or NO bombs; and NO live vigs, or NO blank vigs.

They can coexist.

[Ph0enix]

So who knows each other from the playerlist and what's yall experience levels and what not.

Links to old games as both alignments would be appreciated. I can do the same as well.

I know no one from this player list. As for experience, I played a few games here a couple of years back and that's about it.

Games in question:

[url=ttps://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=81548]Newbie 1973[/url] - Town
Newbie 1976 - Scum
Newbie 1983 - Town
Newbie 1988 - Town
Newbie 1991 - Scum

The newest game on this list is 2+ years old by now, so I'm not sure how relevant these will be in regard to my current playstyle, cause it's bound to have changed since my last game, despite not having played at all for the last 2 years. Still, I'm pretty sure there's useful stuff in there.

What about you?

[Ph0enix]

You guys seem like a lobby who want to try my Standard Survey Start (SSS).

I'm intrigued. Go on.

[Ph0enix]

Sorry, everyone. Will catch up in a bit.

[Ph0enix]

Ah. So this mod kidnapped a previous competitor. Nice.

So full clarity I got no idea what the odds are for the vigilante thing or if the Bomb or Super saint can coexist. So I'm just gonna kill anyone scummy and hope for the best.

I'm not sure I believe this, it's pretty clearly spelled out in the setup area

I personally think it's genuine, given that I had a similar question about the setup before the game started and I asked Pav about it, despite it being explicitly written in the setup explanation in the wiki that was linked. So I wouldn't read too much into it.

But frankly all I can say is that if scum got Roleblocker this game is townsided while if doctor it's scumsuded.

I think you are faking this misunderstanding of the setup to look town

VOTE: Bambi Jay

Not sure that's enough justification to place a vote tbh.


It appears we're out or RVS by now, so...

UNVOTE:

[Ph0enix]

What do you think of the votes on Dunnstral and Bambi? It's sort of the only noteworthy thing that's happened in this game and you've not commented on it

Same question to the others that haven't commented on it yet.

[Ph0enix]

Okay on a skim by the way I scum read Dunnstral.

Why?

He's just voting some person for no reason and lurking and barely saying anything.

I mean, nobody's said that much thus far, to be fair. I do agree that the vote is a bit strange, though.

[Ph0enix]

What we have seen so far leans heavily towards how Frogsterking has played mafia in the past, and does not look similar to how they've played as town.

Next I looked at their early game pushes. I found it notable that in the 4th game they manufactured a reason to vote for somebody early and then focused heavily on that player in several of their next few posts. This behavior is not seen in either of their town games, where their focus is a lot more broad. I think that the third game falls somewhere in between; their focus feels more narrow than in the town games, but they are more willing to move their vote around as well.

It is my opinion then that Frogsterking is somewhat easy to read as their play seems to be rather distinct, and it seems that nobody else has caught onto this yet. That would make them mafia in this game.

VOTE: Frogsterking

I find their jumping in front of a bullet for Bambi Jay notable.

As much as I'm not a fan of comparing a person's games based on alignment, I have to agree that there seems to be a pattern here.

[Ph0enix]

Speaking of that mini, Bambi did you roll scum again?

This is very reminiscent to me of D1 Mini 2273. I was town and Bambi was scum. I voted for her because she appeared scummy to me and she dropped a pretty OMGUSy vote in return. This exchange is giving me some real deja vu.

VOTE: Bambi

I think this is E-2.

Not voting (7): geraintm, GoldfishFromTheMoon, Vivax, Elsa Jay, Eiralox, Crescent, Corwinoid

Scum is in here somewhere

Also kinda a stupid thing to do in accusing people who didn't wanna RVS and call them scum. Unnecessary shade there.

VOTE: Alex

Riddle that vote, friend.

@Alexcellent: Is this what you're referring to? Just want to make sure, cause I just skimmed through D1 of that game and may have missed something.

[Ph0enix]

Spot on.

Bambi/Elsa had been acting in a way that I found to be scummy, so I voted her and she voted back with that post with the tacked on reasoning that I was throwing unnecessary shade. It feels very similar to what's happening here with her and Dunnstral.

That's fair. I'm currently still at null on both Frogsterking and Bambi cause I wanna hear their responses first. I see a world where their playing in the same way they have in previous games where they rolled Scum is more coincidence than anything, especially when it comes to Bambi.

[Ph0enix]

Hmm fair enough. It's still early I guess but I can see myself having a hard time switching off my paranoia here now
What do you think of Dunnstral?

I don't think much of the vote on Bambi, I see where it's coming from, even though I wouldn't have made it myself.

I like the push on Frogsterking but I can't say I think it's AI necessarily, although I do get it's natural for a Town player to be more willing to want to push the conversation forward.

So I'm null on Dunn for now. Maybe slight TR.

[Ph0enix]

@Bambi: Any thoughts on Alexcellent's vote on you?

[Ph0enix]

Will catch up in a bit.

[Ph0enix]

Not sure that's enough justification to place a vote tbh.


It appears we're out or RVS by now, so...

UNVOTE:

I'm not sure if this is AI or just playstyle friction but I strongly, strongly dislike this unvote, and the motivation in it as well as the comment preceding. Voting is always better than not voting. While reasoning for scumreads is obviously good, I don't like the implication here that you need to meet a certain standard of evidence/justification for a vote. Game is in a low info state and the best way to create info is to vote, create wagons, force people into taking stances. Sitting around not voting anyone and dismissing potentially good leads keeps the game in a low-info state.

I don't know what to tell you, it may be a playstyle thing. I don't think votes are necessary to create info, I don't feel more pressured now that there's 2 votes on me than I would have been if you and Galron had written your posts with the same content but without the votes themselves.

And what do you think the point of RVS is if you're just going to unvote once "we're out" of it and go nowhere with it afterwards?

I see no point leaving a vote that was made in the first post of the game with no reasoning behind it, now that there's enough content generated that votes are no longer without reason. Unvoting does not mean I'm "going nowhere with it".

I see in 75 you don't seem to be scumreading Dunnstral, so what is the point of your comment on his vote? Why are you dismissing an attempt to pressure another player? If you aren't suspicious of Dunn's motivations then commenting like this on his vote feels to me like you're more interested in sounding reasonable or fair than you are in finding and pressuring scum.

That's fair, in hindsight I probably should have followed up and asked why she thought Bambi's misunderstanding when it comes to the setup is reason enough to vote her in and of itself. Though as it appears it's my playstyle that I have to adjust and be more aggressive with voting, as placing a vote apparently doesn't carry the same weight that it does in my head, which would render my comment on Dunn's vote obsolete.

I think Alexcellent and Galron are town

very much giving me vibes/profiile of scum trying to get their foothold in the game by asking basic questions and making safe/non-controversial comments, while not actually taking any

real

initiative to pursue reads or sort players.

This part I can't get behind. These two statements contradict one another. If I'm the one that's asking basic questions and making comments while not taking initiative to sort players, what's Galron been doing? How is he Town in your eyes based on current information, when his posts so far offer no real substance imo. (I'm not talking about Alex here, cause I think his posts have provided enough thus far given the limited information he's working with, as the rest of us.) It appears my asking questions and making comments is the reason you are SR-ing me while TR-ing Galron, cause that's the main difference between their posts and mine. Which wouldn't make sense - surely asking basic questions is better than nothing.

65 is another example in addition to what I said about 60, a non-comment comment, "I don't like meta but I agree with your meta finding", that does not strike me as a comment that comes from a real intention to solve

Would be a fair argument, if the statement of mine you are referring to and the following one I'm going to quote were any different in substance, which they are not:

I think Alexcellent and Galron are town

I am going to wait for Frog to respond to Dunn before I fully weigh in on that case, but I will say I think Dunn's point about Frog's focus being more narrow in his scum games than the town games is the more compelling argument to me.

My point was that, indeed, there seems to be a pattern when it comes to Frogster's posting frequency and the content of his posts based on his alignment and that pattern is something worth considering. You are not saying anything different than me here, the only thing different is that you are leaning slightly towards taking Dunn's side in the argument as of now (correct me if I'm wrong), while I'm not doing so yet.

As for Galron's playstyle itself, it bugs me, however I don't think it's AI as well, I understand that not all players enjoy writing walls of text in flashy colors as I tend to do. Furthermore, GL is my primary SR as of now based on the fact that I think his argument regarding my playstyle, due to which he voted me, is severely flawed and that he's trying to make something out of nothing and start a wagon on me. In that case, I don't think scum!Galron ever jumps on the wagon with no reasoning whatsoever like he did, it's too suboptimal of a play for me to consider. That's why I'm TR-ing Galron for now.

VOTE: GuiltyLion

oh I think kuti is town too

Wait why

+1

I'm catching up but yeaaaa Dunn is town. This doesn't feel fake able.

Hard, hard disagree on that one. I don't understand why everyone is jumping to conclusions that it doesn't feel fakeable. As I said in a previous post, I get that Town players will naturally be more willing to push the conservation forward and so doing all this digging may be a slight TR, hence why I put Dunn as a possible slight TR in said post. However, to think that it's strongly Town indicative, let alone not fakeable, I can't get behind. Why would it not be fakeable? Why would Scum not spend some time digging if it apparently means a safe TR from some of the other players?

[Ph0enix]

I'm signing off for today, I'll check the game again in the morning.

[Ph0enix]

yoink

[Ph0enix]

Not great vibes
Ph0neix (their defense over my tr on Dunn made no sense)
GuiltyLion (feels like they are trying to pocket me, not good vibes)

In both these reads, you are not taking the whole exchange between me and GL yesterday into consideration. Why is that? Do you think nothing said there was AI?

[Ph0enix]

oh I think kuti is town too

Wait why

you didn't feel defensive to me and I liked the second question in 39

Feel defensive? What would she feel defensive about in the first place? As for the second question - eh? How is that AI in any way?

[Ph0enix]

I see no point leaving a vote that was made in the first post of the game with no reasoning behind it, now that there's enough content generated that votes are no longer without reason. Unvoting does not mean I'm "going nowhere with it".

but, it does mean exactly that though. My view is that your vote should always be on your strongest scumread (or on a wagon you support) - voting nobody accomplishes absolutely nothing. Unvoting and not voting somebody new is basically just signaling "I have no one I believe might be scum right now" which is a completely non-game-advancing position to have

We agree to disagree, I suppose. I don't see how a vote in and of itself accomplishes anything as well. I can vote all I want and always be on my strongest SR, but if I don't have much to back it up, why bother? If I don't have something in particular to go off of, why vote? I suppose you could say votes force people into taking stances, as you said. That may be true, you've played longer on site than I have. It's just that a vote (or multiple votes) against me itself does nothing in terms of forcing me to take a stance, it's the arguments it's surrounded by that force me to do it. That may just be me, though, if it works in general then by all means, I will be more aggressive with my votes in the future.

[Ph0enix]

This is a terrible reply, to compare yourself to Galron in this way. Are you implying that I should be reading you two the same? Why? I have played several games with Galron scum and Galron town, to the point where I have a feel of how he posts as scum and how he posts as town, and his early game so far reminds me of games I've played with him as town.

I disagree that "asking questions" is townie or intrinsically better than doing nothing. Consider that scum's goal and purpose is to

appear town

, and the fundamental crux of the vibe I dislike from you is that you are

trying to appear

town and useful. I'm not scumreading you for lack of doing anything, I'm scumreading you for a lack of actual purpose behind your posts that would help you sort players.

Well that changes things then, you didn't specify that the reason you TR Galron was because of previous games. I thought you were going off of generated content alone, which I found frustrating because I don't see how Galron's contribution itself thus far makes him a TR in your eyes. The reason I compared myself to him was that I think I've contributed more based on my posts thus far. Now, is that AI? No, it's not, BUT you TR-ing Galron without giving any reason for that at the beginning led me to believe that the content of his posts in a vacuum is what led you to TR him, in which case you TR-ing him while SR-ing me for the same reason sounded hypocritical to me.

[Ph0enix]

do you think this is something that town!GL does not do?

I was going to say I would like to believe town!GL would need stronger arguments than what you provided to start a wagon against me. That being said, the more I read your recent posts, the more I think this whole exchange between us is more of a playstyle clash than anything. Now that you've provided information about the way you play, I'm starting to understand the reason behind your vote initially.

[Ph0enix]

oh and also the "why me?" and how he brings Galron into the mix. Like he makes assumptions about why I'm townreading Galron and explicitly says Galron offers no information to him - implying Galron should not be TR and/or I should also be scumreading Galron if I'm scumreading him? - but then ultimately arrives at a Galron TR by the end of the post, which would make his earlier point obsolete.

And I get that Galron hadn't posted 92 when I expressed my TR, but still a "why aren't you also finding this player scummy, who I am townreading btw" thought process feels manufactured to me.

I arrived at a Galron TR because I SR-ed you, and my point was that scum!Galron and scum!GL existing in the same game is extremely unlikely based on what's been posted so far.

[Ph0enix]

or like, what's the point of this? "I TR Dunn for it, but let's not

hard

TR him for it"??

Phoenix, I'll give you a genuine reach out here in case I am wrong so far, it's this kinda thing that makes me scumread you.

alignments aren't a spectrum they're a binary

, so while I can understand varying degrees of confidence in reads I don't vibe with expressing them in this super non-committal tentative form. End of the day, either Dunn's town or he's not, and if you think town!Dunn is more likely, there's no point to dinging him when other people also think he's town. It comes across as trying to break up a town bloc and trying to make him generally less townread by everybody.

And if you

don't

think town!Dunn is more likely, then you wouldn't be saying he's a "possible slight TR", cause he's not.

ultimately I just don't even understand what's the value of a "possible slight TR", like if your point here is "don't bet the game on town Dunn", I don't think anyone is really doing that and I don't immediately understand what your goal is in posting that.

Again, I can't really agree with the bolded part. I do see alignments as a spectrum, no two TRs or SRs are the same in my opinion. As for the "non-comittal tentative form", I don't see alignments in a spectrum as an excuse to not commit to anything, I just don't have anything so far to suggest a hard TR on anybody. At the same time, I saw people fairly confidently say Dunn is town, which, if you really see alignments as a binary, I fully agree with. Dunn is more of a TR than a SR, that's for sure. However, saying it with that much confidence from my point of view puts it near the end of the TR spectrum, which, given the limited information we're working with so far, I don't agree with. That's what my problem is and why I suggested a slight TR on Dunn as opposed to your seemingly more confident TRs, cause I saw your TRs as a bit of a stretch. My point as to the "possible slight TR" was that I believe you're giving Dunn too much credit and it may come back to bite you in the ass later.

[Ph0enix]

The more I read, the more the whole exchange between me and GL sounds like two Townies with different playstyles pointing fingers at one another.

UNVOTE:

I really need more from some players, but especially Sara's slot. She basically hasn't said anything since the beginning of the game. Though, I would like to hear Bambi's and Galron's thoughts as well. Any reads? What do you make of my exchange with GL? Anything else you want to add?

[Ph0enix]

(I was about to write a long post but decided to break it into several before posting it, that's why they're posted in the same time.)

[Ph0enix]

I think Galron, Ph0enix, GL and kuti could be town

Could you elaborate a bit more on these?

On a different note, I think setting an avatar would be a good idea cause it helps players recognize you more easily.

[Ph0enix]

Uhhh my pronouns are they/them but I'm going to respond soon. Just procrastinating instead of prepping fire interviews

Sorry about that, my bad.

Ok with my Ph0enix vote.

Why?

[Ph0enix]

Your posting this page is over-explainy, like you're trying to rationalize your actions in your own head.

I'm just having a discussion with GL, I have no need to rationalize my actions in my own head. As for the over-explainy part, that's how I always play.

Any thoughts on the other players?

[Ph0enix]

I am mixed and am unsure what to think about Bambi and her repeated threats towards Kuti. But also idk what town!Bambi is like tbf but scum!Bambi was more talkative than this...

I think that's just banter, so NAI. I'm more worried about the general lack of participation on her part. Though hopefully that clears up when she answers these:

I really need more from some players, but especially Sara's slot. She basically hasn't said anything since the beginning of the game. Though, I would like to hear Bambi's and Galron's thoughts as well. Any reads? What do you make of my exchange with GL? Anything else you want to add?

@Bambi

@Bambi, what do you think of Dunnstral's push on Frogster?

[Ph0enix]

UNVOTE: Dunnstral

I'm starting to think Dunnstral may be a paranoid Townie and not scum.

What made you change your mind? What do you make of her justification for voting you?

[Ph0enix]

We shoiuld get to the killing part

Given that some players have been, for the most part, inactive and still haven't contributed much? What's the sudden rush?

[Ph0enix]

If that's what it takes for Bambi to answer the questions they've been ignoring thus far, I'm fine with this for now.

VOTE: Bambi Jay

@Kuti: Are you voting Bambi only because of the "derp slip" earlier or there's some other reason as well?

[Ph0enix]

This is E-2.

[Ph0enix]

I still can't comprehend what happened at the end of D1...

I'm struggling to figure out why Scum chose to kill Galron of all people. I was sure Alex wasn't surviving the night, given that he was basically universally TR-ed and he had a good D1. Furthermore, Galron was on the wagon against me, so leaving him alive would make it easier for me to get eliminated today.

Like, killing Alex just made sense from a Scum POV. Town losing what can be considered one of their leaders on D1 would be a huge blow. The question is whether the value of killing Alex was outweighed by leaving him alive and killing someone else, because anything but an Alex kill on N1 points to him, IMO. But even that doesn't necessarily add up, cause the question remains - why Galron then? Surely GL would have been a better option, though there's the argument that our discussion we started on D1 that's bound to continue today would not be able to continue today had GL been killed N1. The other scenario is GL is Scum after all - Alex being essentially "framed" would make most sense in a scenario where GL is Scum, cause then it would make sense why GL wasn't killed on N1.

Also, provided Alex was Scum, why would he choose to essentially act as a mediator between me and GL on D1? It would have been easier to just pick a side and vote against me.

Gah, I'm confused. I would love to hear the others' thoughts on this. Solely based on the NK, I think scum!GL or scum!Alex makes the most sense.

[Ph0enix]

I think Galron, Ph0enix, GL and kuti could be town

Wouldn't mind input here. Do we think Sara throws her partner's name in here or is this straight up a list of town people?

Only people alive not in this list are myself and Frog.

It's a weird post and I'm not sure which way to swing on it. But also there's not much to look at in her ISO given she only posted 3 times. She voted Frog at start of day, unvoted, and then there's the above post. That's pretty much it.

Given that from what I learned based on this game and skimming through the other game she's in right now, she's an inexperienced player, I'm inclined to believe she would put her partner in there. I know I'd do the same if it was literally my first Mafia game ever, which I believe it is for her. Then again, I don't think there's any information to gain out of Sara's ISO - even though my gut tells me she would put her partner in her TRs, it's 50/50.

[Ph0enix]

This is 4v1 right not 3 v2?

Yep.

[Ph0enix]

I'm struggling to figure out why Scum chose to kill Galron of all people. I was sure Alex wasn't surviving the night, given that he was basically universally TR-ed and he had a good D1. Furthermore, Galron was on the wagon against me, so leaving him alive would make it easier for me to get eliminated today.

I think it's probably important.

I mean, Ph0enix are you assessing the night kill to be a bad choice?

No, I don't. Alex made a good point in 182 - when I was playing scenarios in my head as to why Scum would choose Galron, I didn't look at a scenario where I'm Scum, cause I know my alignment. That being said - killing Galron kills two birds with one stone - on the one hand, as I said, Alex was an obvious choice for a kill. I don't think I was as much as he was, cause I had votes on me and he didn't. So Alex not being killed N1 puts pressure on him and makes us take a scum!Alex scenario into account. On the other hand, killing Galron also puts pressure on me, cause the kill makes sense from a scum!me POV as well - Galron was on my wagon yesterday, plus me killing Galron means not killing Alex and that makes his life on D2 harder as well for the same reasons outlined above.

My point is this kill makes both me and Alex look bad, IMO. That's why I think it's a good kill.

[Ph0enix]

Unless you think Alex didnt have any great alternatives.

Given your vote and this post I'm assuming you think Alex had an alternative. Who would that be?

[Ph0enix]

yoink

[Ph0enix]

What made you change vote?

[Ph0enix]

For the record I do recommend a vigi shot on Alex for starting this for such a stupid reason. He should have known better.

FWIW I think this is maybe why I'm still alive, funnily enough.

I think scum could have viewed a NK on me as a potential waste given that a vig may have just done the work for them after seeing this post

That's a good point actually, I have to reread again with that in mind.

[Ph0enix]

Thoughts about the players remaining:

Kuti

I see no claim from anyone else in regard to the Sara kill, so I guess they are conf!Town at this point.

Alex

I don't mind the vote in 42 in and of itself, I'm more worried about the fact that he didn't unvote when Bambi got to E-1. Then again, it happened quite fast so there's a chance he may've just missed it. As for the discussion that was going on between me and GL, I still think that's a point in Alex's favour, cause he could have easily voted against me to pressure me based on GL's points, or voted GL, because he didn't like some of his responses. He chose to do neither of these, which can be seen as non-committal, but I believe it points more to town!Alex than scum!Alex. In a scum!Alex case I'm also not sure what the point of a Galron kill is as opposed to a GL kill.

Frogster

I think the biggest argument for scum!Frogster is still what Dunn said in 63. His playstyle this game is similar to the one he exhibits when he rolls scum. His voting pattern is also weird, and I don't even know what 203 is supposed to mean.

GL

I don't think my exchange with GL on D1 was particularly AI, I believe it was playstyle friction more than anything else. His reasoning for a possible scum!Alex scenario in 206 I find kinda strange, because it's the same reasoning he used on D1 against me. The point Bambi was making, which he refers to in the same post, I can't argue with.

Given what Alex said in 209, I think the Galron kill makes the most sense in a scum!GL or scum!Frogster scenario. At first, before this post by Alex, I wasn't considering the scum!Frogster scenario as much, because I believed based on his playstyle thus far that he wouldn't overthink the night kill as much and simply kill Alex, cause that was a no-brainer. Given that Alex could've been killed by a Vigi after what Bambi said, though, I think the Galron kill also makes sense if Frogster is scum.


@Alex: Why didn't you unvote Bambi at the end of D1?
@Frogster: 1. Thoughts on Dunn's meta read on you in 63? 2. Could you walk me through your voting pattern, and more specifically me --> GL --> Alex?
@GL: I think I just need more from you in general, cause you've been quieter today than on D1. But you said yourself that you'll reread again, so I'm looking forward to what you have to say.

[Ph0enix]

The Bambi/Dunn stuff happened Sunday morning for me, I didn't see it until after the thread was already locked
Full disclosure, I typically don't mind people being at E-1 early, I don't think that's necessarily scummy. But if I saw Bambi voting for herself I think I probably would have unvoted.

That's fair.

I switched onto Alex instead of GL because I read Alex's D1 iso and realized it's much worse than I expected.

Could you elaborate?

[Ph0enix]

and I don't even know what 203 is supposed to mean.

This is an issue, do you feel like you have a clear grasp on the concept of deductive reasoning?

Oh, you mean "eliminate" as in by process of elimination, I thought you meant "eliminate" as "vote off".

[Ph0enix]

Another pagetop, nice.

[Ph0enix]

Sorry, catching up is in progress.

[Ph0enix]

So, I think we're in a state of the game where not much more information can be gained without an elimination. Most of what I mentioned in 218 still stands. The points I made about Alex are the reason I don't think I'm willing to vote Alex today.

I'm torn between voting Frogster or GL today based on what was mentioned in the same post and I'm willing to go with what Kuti thinks is the best option, cause there's an argument to be made about both scum!GL and scum!Frogster, IMO.

UNVOTE: alex 232 is bad enough to make me reconsider.

What about is bugs you? I echo most of what was said in the last two paragraphs of that post.

[Ph0enix]

So, I think we're in a state of the game where not much more information can be gained without an elimination. Most of what I mentioned in 218 still stands. The points I made about Alex are the reason I don't think I'm willing to vote Alex today.

I'm torn between voting Frogster or GL today based on what was mentioned in the same post and I'm willing to go with what Kuti thinks is the best option, cause there's an argument to be made about both scum!GL and scum!Frogster, IMO.

UNVOTE: alex 232 is bad enough to make me reconsider.

What about is bugs you? I echo most of what was said in the last two paragraphs of that post.

This post concerns me a bit.
I get that there's not a ton of information that we can get from D1 given the sudden hammer, but I feel like rushing an elimination here is still bad. I think a mislim here is potentially be game throwing?

Potentially, yes. Yeah, I get it, I pointed it out because we've been seemingly stuck for the last 24+ hours. Hopefully things will clear up a bit more when Kuti shows up and/or Frogster responds, I'm just skeptical that something is going to help me solve my dilemma as to who to vote between GL and Frogster. But let's see.

[Ph0enix]

so after reread I'm willing to vote/eliminate Frogster but I wanna see where Ph0enix's head is at and if kuti wants to eliminate Frog then they should get to choose who hammers (in the event of supersaint)

GL wanting Kuti to have the power over who hammers is very much a pro-town move IMO. Like I really do not see scum making this suggestion.

That's a fair point, actually.

[Ph0enix]

From my POV, I don't see how a Galron kill makes less sense in a scum!GL scenario than a scum!Frog scenario.