Micro 1059: Micro & Normal Stuff | GAME OVER

[MegAzumarill]

I think Meg is scum here and townread everyone else

So tomorrow you'll have to 180 on someone.

Oh the irony

I am not criticising you for 180ing if you are town here

I just think the way you did it is scummy

I'll be honest I don't think I'd play this day different as scum.

[scamper]

UNVOTE:

Whatever

I feel like people are mad at my play right now but idk what to do

I'll come back when I'm in a better place and have time to think

i'm not mad, ftr

i just disagree with your reads

it happens in mafia games

maybe you are right and i am wrong, i hardly claim to be perfect

[scamper]

@ausuka - sorry if i came off as pissy, it wasnt my intention


i think a vote on meg today is basically a foregone conclusion. in the event that meg flips town, you are almost certainly going to die overnight. i feel as though the last scum is already planning to pivot against me in 3-way. my future sight has gifted me this vision. if you feel incredibly strongly about one of dats/coral being town, please talk to me about it. i promise to take it into consideration.

[Ausuka]

Sorry if I was defensive!

Uh, I do not feel especially strongly on Coral/datisi. I think either could be scum playing a good game, but I don't think either is likely. If you want I can reread before deadline although my thoughts will probably not be mind-changing

I think it is probably one of them if it's not meg - I don't think a game with only one vanilla townie would be passed.

[Ausuka]

Fwiw my main hangup with coral is more role based than play based I think?

Like... I don't think "scum decides to claim informed with a clear before they have any information on what claim would fit the setup, and specifically play around ausuka/the miller claim" is a particularly likely scenario.

Maybe this is just me, but I think coral is true claiming informed neighbourizer regardless of alignment and I do not think mafia is informed about a miller, like, ever? I also think mafia informed neighbourizer/town backup neighbourizer is a kind of weird interaction, while not impossible, I think town informed neighbourizer/mafia informed backup neighbourizer is so much neater

I know you didn't want to discuss setup spec and that's fine I'm just explaining my thoughts I guess

[Datisi]

It was mainly my stance about having no clue between datisi/ coral and my resons for each but most of that ended up being implied/ fairly obvious.

weren't you strongly townreading coral up until today? like, ik you were suspecting me/gamma yesterday, so after gamma's death, what made you go me/coral?

to add to this a bit, meg said that they found coral to be town bc she was being analytical/nuanced. i don't see how that goes away if coral was talking about phoenix, bc making analytical posts as scum is theoretically equally difficult if aimed at townies or aimed at scumbuddy

You don't think scum has more reason to have a nuanced townread on their partner than on a townie? Difficult or no they have better reasons to do so.

it's not about whether they have or don't have reason to do so

if you tell me you're townreading someone for making analytical/nuanced posts, i am assuming that to mean "this person is making analysis that would be difficult to fake as scum", not "this person is positioning themself in a way that doesn't make it likely from scum"

the latter changes with flips, the former doesn't

[Datisi]

i feel like we're getting distracted by mechanical shiny bullshit

coral committed to a roleclaim as scum very VERY early, which is something i really struggle to see coming from scum

These feel counterintuitive to each other, both condemning people for mechanical analysis and yet clearing someone specifically for an early claim in a PT they have full control over.

It feels like trying to take only mechanics that's beneficial to what they are trying to do right now but ignoring the ones that go against them.

ok, i'll write out the longer version:

i don't think coral as scum prepares their fakeclaim as early as they did

people are trying to mechsolve this game (e.g. scamper is trying to outguess the setup in a way that i have seen go bad so many times) when this game feels much simpler and solvable via dayplay. like i've played in and modded a lot of normal games. i know mech, i know nrg brains, and i know when people are getting lost in discussing setups when they should be discussing who's acting scummy. and it annoys me.

[Datisi]

i think its actually highly super unlikely that all of don/dats/corals roles can exist in the same game and be town

if you take for granted that they all are, you could potentially have 3 players mechanically cleared on day 2 of a micro

that seems like it would be incredibly unbalanced

i've been thinking about this the last few days - i think you're not thinking about it the way games actually are balanced. like, theoretically, yes, 3 confirmed townies could be present on day 2. (and this is assuming that town doesn't kill scum d1 and doesn't think one of them is fakeclaiming a clear on a partner.)

but it's also possible that there is only one confirmed townie on day 2, like it happened here. my role ended up not giving a clear, don got shot (he wasn't guaranteed to get a result anyway), and now mine and coral's claims are making each other look worse than we would've been individually. (which is also a factor in balancing.) and that's not even going into what scum possibly has as power roles.

like yeah, best case scenario for town is lol, but the worst case scenario for town is also lol. that's swing, not imbalance.

also, not that i necessarily agree with the following, but 3 cleared townies on d2, (7 alive, 2 scum alive) is still 50% ev.

again i dont see how u can balance around "in the worst case scenario for town scum has a chance", as a design philosophy thats super busted, u need to examine how easy it is for town to get a near lock based on rhings going right

well no, it's "best case scenario for town, scum still has a chance". like, i don't *agree* with that design philosophy, and i probably would've had words for this setup had i been a reviewer. but it's how games are, swing is inherent in normal games, and especially when most of the town power is coming from unreliable investigatives.

like, "based on things going right" is literally never assumed when balancing normal games because things almost never go exactly right for town with power roles. it's looked at both how likely it is that things go right, and that they go horribly wrong.

[Datisi]

i'm thinking how to approach scamper, and i'm reading meg trying to argue they'd kill a miller, and i am struggling(tm)

i'm in a similar boat to ausuka, where i townread everyone except meg and i scumread meg and i think that yeet wins us the game. and i have laid out reasons why i think that, but i feel like scamper hasn't interacted with those but is instead doing the "if this is wrong i'm instavoting you in yeetlo fuck you" and it's

frustrating

.

[Datisi]

I think it is probably one of them if it's not meg - I don't think a game with only one vanilla townie would be passed.

it wasn't - in the universe of scamper!scum, there's 2 vts

[Datisi]

36 hours left, and i'm basically gonna be v/la the last 24 of them because ya bo got another afternoon-into-morning torture session coming up

scamper, if you got the time tonight, can you give me a tl;dr of why meg is so townie to you? and/or link it to where you've explained it. because at this point i'm not even sure why you're townreading them so strongly, which might be my own fault, but you're stuck in this game with me, so.

[Ausuka]

I think it is probably one of them if it's not meg - I don't think a game with only one vanilla townie would be passed.

it wasn't - in the universe of scamper!scum, there's 2 vts

Oh duh I'm bad

Yeah idk tbh

[Datisi]

y'all murdered xayah and already forgot about her, huh

[Ausuka]

I will reread soon

I guess I don't understand why scamper was going to instant vote datisi instead of coral if he's not angry? Like I would get it if datisi said he would never even consider eliminating coral but I don't think that's the case

Pedit: yes

[Ausuka]

I was going to say "would they really pass a game with 2 vts"

But I just played a game with like six simple/complex roles where I rolled ascetic miller even night mailman

So maybe a game with two vts would in fact pass

[scamper]

(there are 2 vts flipped already, idk that 2/3 is a massive difference but i am town regardless)

Fwiw my main hangup with coral is more role based than play based I think?

Like... I don't think "scum decides to claim informed with a clear before they have any information on what claim would fit the setup, and specifically play around ausuka/the miller claim" is a particularly likely scenario.

Maybe this is just me, but I think coral is true claiming informed neighbourizer regardless of alignment and I do not think mafia is informed about a miller, like, ever? I also think mafia informed neighbourizer/town backup neighbourizer is a kind of weird interaction, while not impossible, I think town informed neighbourizer/mafia informed backup neighbourizer is so much neater

I know you didn't want to discuss setup spec and that's fine I'm just explaining my thoughts I guess

all good, no worries

[Ausuka]

I would think 2 and 3 is a significant difference in a micro, especially with a complex cop I guess?

But like idk I don't actually know setups and the normal queue has changed quite a lot from Back In My Day so etc

[Ausuka]

VOTE: meg

Because we have less than a day and I only just realised this

I'm sure we'll have adequate time to Lim but want this on the board in case I lose access or something

[Irrelephant11]

Official Vote Count 3.05

this scorpion lives in a desert, and has a procrastination problem.

elimination

With 5 votes in play, it takes 3 to close without saving.

MegAzumarill

(2): Datisi, Ausuka

Coral

(1): scamper

Not Voting

(2): Coral, MegAzumarill

Deadline:

(expired on 2022-08-14 04:59:26).

Mod notes:

<3

[MegAzumarill]

I don't particularly want to CFD so there's not much to say.
Without ausuka/dats votes which look like they won't happen I pretty much have to be the elim.

I'm probably about 55/44 with scum!dats and scum! coral right now, but the former isn't logistically viable to push here.

Whichever is scum has done a great job. Best of luck to who of scamper/Ausuka survives the night to find them.

I'm not quite sure what coral claimed in the neighborhood pregame, but it sound like less than a full claim the more people talk about it which feels..... odd if they are actually town. That said I don't have the relevant context of the PT.

[Ausuka]

She claimed informed nearly immediately but said she was worried about the person she was informed about being ascetic

After I claimed miller she claimed she was informed I was town pretty much right away

[scamper]

i am around, i don't have anything to add atp

i assume coral will hammer, if she no-shows for whatever reason i'll do it

[Coral]

Yes, I will !

I'm thinking about things but I don't think there's any world where I don't vote Meg here, and maybe there isn't any point in waiting. I just hadn't yet in case anyone had anything left to say, but I suppose Datisi and Ausuka can always talk in the hood overnight if the game isn't over.

[Ausuka]

Hi uh I'm here if we need to do shenanigans or whatever

Don't really have anything useful to add though

[MegAzumarill]

I've said my piece.