Micro 1060: Radiology Mafia [Game Over]

[marcistar]

[marcistar]

fun fact: meg rolled scum

[Ausuka]

Do you not see the irony in saying this and looking at the Juice wagon - which actually got to E-1 - but you have not made the same point about that?

No, I don't feel the same way about the Juice wagon really. I'm not immensely keen on getting into detail on this because I don't think it would accomplish much and would be time consuming but I guess I could if you really wanted.

actually agree with you that Herta's change is a little strange to me but it's not at all 'convenient'. It's the second vote on the wagon after Herta already asks a question

I disagree - if Marci is town, she is self immolating and voting her for frustration seems like a very surface level way to make the easiest push in the game. If Marci is scum, I agree another word would be better, but it still doesn't feel like real sorting and I'm not sure how much the word use matters.

Do people need to explain their votes? Maybe this goes into a little bit of theory but I don't think you need to explain a vote until you actually want support on it.

Sure it's not necessary. That doesn't change my point that I feel kind of uncomfortable with the Marci wagon getting to that point and staying there with the reasoning given though.

This isn't really addressing the actual topic on hand here. If you call out the wagon but you think the person is still scum, you think that scum is joining a scum wagon on Day 1 to gain credit. That's a really weird buss to make before the 10th page. Saying 'scum vote each other literally all the time' is correct but they don't do it for nothing - which is something that you're accusing almost every person in your explanation above of doing.

I disagree. I think scum vote each other when they very much do not need to and there is no immediate benefit, based on my past experiences in mafia games. I'm not accusing anyone of being the scumteam or specifically bussing - what I am trying to say is that it's pretty much impossible to make these kinds of calls on day 1 and I am going to evaluate people's play individually rather than saying something like "oh, Marci could be scum, so I'm not going to look for potential scum on the Marci wagon"

[Hiraki]

I mean, if we're just going to disagree - I'd rather not continue with this dialogue. It seems pretty obvious to me so I'd like to hear what others think.

[Ircher]

Day 1 VC #7

Herta

(1): marcistar (18)

JohnnyFarrar

(1): MegAzumarill (177)

Juice

(1): Radical Rat (152)

marcistar

(1): Hiraki (20)

Not Voting

(5): JohnnyFarrar, Juice (178), Aisa (180), Herta (186), Ausuka (192)

With 9 alive, it takes 5 votes to accuse a player of malpractice.

Deadlines

This phase will end on August 27, 2022 8:00 PM CDT (GMT-5:00) or in (expired on 2022-08-27 20:00:00).

Moderator Notes

1: If you have regular weekend V/LA, you must either notify me each time or set V/LA tags each time.
2: Let me know if you spot any errors in the vote count or voting history. I am trying out a new tool for recording the voting history.
3: Let me know if you go by a different pronoun than listed.
4: JohnnyFarrar is V/LA until the end of Tuesday, August 16.

Pronoun Key

1. Ausuka : any / any / any
2. Aisa : she / her / her
3. MegAzumarill : any / any / any
4. Hiraki : he / him / his
5. Juice : xe / xem / xyrs
6. marcistar : unspecified / unspecified / unspecified
7. Radical Rat : they / them / theirs
8. Herta : unspecified / unspecified / unspecified
9. JohnnyFarrar : he / him / his

[MegAzumarill]

fun fact: meg rolled scum

That's the plan but I gotta gind wm first

Really dislike Juice's backpedal here. I agree with herta it feels very handwavy and I get 'soft' coaching vibes from it. Please elaborate Juice about what you were hoping to find and what your conclusions are from this "test"

[Hiraki]

The test just feels like the ultimate "haha, gotcha suckers..." - it's moderate trolling at this point.

[Ausuka]

VOTE: Aisa

I think I would like to go here for now

[MegAzumarill]

I don't think they approach the wagon in the way they did if it was actually a reaction test. Especially since they ignored a lot of questions, at least a few of which were more general and not about the push they now say is a test.

[Ausuka]

I said I was going to look into Aisa's past games. I did, but so many of them were from years ago that I don't think it's particularly useful.

I think Juice warrants looking into more if nothing else. I'm not confident at all xe is scum but I think the way xe seems slightly selective with what xe responds to, and xyr tone would benefit from further investigation, so consider my vote there a serious one now.

I think this is the scummiest thing in the game so far. What does "xyr tone would benefit from further investigation" really even mean? It also feels like unnaturally hedgey. Instead of just like, pressuring Juice, or really make the case that ye is scum here, she's really emphasising the weakness of the read. It feels like she's trying to appear super reasonable and stay under the radar more than solve the game. I guess a good way to put it is that she's more focused on looking like she's sorting Juice than actually sorting Juice here.

I also feel that answering a question on Juice's behalf is scummy for her because I would expect town Aisa to want to hear the elaboration xe gives. I don't think she's really writing her posts with the aim to sort Juice or anybody else, if that makes sense.

[Hiraki]

I don't think they approach the wagon in the way they did if it was actually a reaction test. Especially since they ignored a lot of questions, at least a few of which were more general and not about the push they now say is a test.

Correct. I agree with you that this whole 'test' is not genuine. My point is that I'm not sure if it comes from town or scum. Gut says town but I really don't trust my gut here.

[Radical Rat]

The wagon hit E-1 only 5-10 posts later. That doesn't sound very safe to me.

And then it dissolved immediately, with Juice perfectly unharmed. That doesn't sound very dangerous to me.

[Radical Rat]

And so do other people - so when I accuse you of 'dropping' Herta. You may not 'mentally' drop it but now your naked pressure vote is gone so you have lost all avenues to pressure Herta...in order to join the leading wagon of the day. That doesn't sound very weird to you? You vote because someone you think is scum rather than voting to get information first - especially on Day 1?

I think you're being reductive and misrepresentative.
You're continuing to call it a naked pressure vote which is just factually incorrect; it may not have been fully dressed, but it was at least wearing a nice T-shirt. And there's also the insinuation that because I wanted to apply pressure, it wasn't a real vote. It very much was, the two aren't mutually exclusive. Voting my scumreads and getting information are also not mutually exclusive. I don't need to vote someone to observe and form reads, and I think the most informative way to use my vote is to put it on scum and watch how they and others react.

So no, that doesn't sound very weird to me

[Aisa]

I am also keen to see Juice answer the questions xe has been asked.

I said I was going to look into Aisa's past games. I did, but so many of them were from years ago that I don't think it's particularly useful.

I think Juice warrants looking into more if nothing else. I'm not confident at all xe is scum but I think the way xe seems slightly selective with what xe responds to, and xyr tone would benefit from further investigation, so consider my vote there a serious one now.

I think this is the scummiest thing in the game so far. What does "xyr tone would benefit from further investigation" really even mean? [...]

I'm not sure how productive it is to write a detailed answer to the other points in your post so far, but I can cover them if it's something you would like. But it seems worth quickly pointing out that that sentence is supposed to mean "the fact xe answers questions selectively + [the fact] xyr tone [is a bit snappy] [means] xe warrants further investigation" if that makes sense?

[Ausuka]

I think that's fair and makes it less bad than I was thinking, although I still stand by the rest of my post

[Aisa]

Actually -

[...]

I think Juice warrants looking into more if nothing else. I'm not confident at all xe is scum but I think the way xe seems slightly selective with what xe responds to, and xyr tone would benefit from further investigation, so consider my vote there a serious one now.

I think this is the scummiest thing in the game so far. What does "xyr tone would benefit from further investigation" really even mean? It also feels like unnaturally hedgey. Instead of just like, pressuring Juice, or really make the case that ye is scum here, she's really emphasising the weakness of the read. It feels like she's trying to appear super reasonable and stay under the radar more than solve the game. I guess a good way to put it is that she's more focused on looking like she's sorting Juice than actually sorting Juice here.
[...]

In that post I specifically said this:

Kind of a token contribution to ensure I don't get caught by the prod timer, but RL willing I will probably be around again in a couple hours.

and that was specifically meant to explain why it was a less meaty/focused/pushing post. Is that something you're factoring into your read?

[Ausuka]

Not particularly? I'm not suspicious the quantity of your posting but the content of it - I'm not doubting you weren't around and I don't expect players to be super active, but I don't think that really changes the motives I see in your posting if that makes sense.

[Aisa]

Hmm, I'm thinking it might make sense to townlean you here.

I was conflicted because your push on me had kinda pinged me:

I think I want to vote for either Aisa or Herta but I am not sure which right now. Aisa I think feels the scummiest based on play; she does not feel particularly genuine, there's the thing I pointed out, I feel that the juice push is really easy and her approach towards xem feels unnecessarily passive I guess? Like, it feels like she's holding back and trying to appear super reasonable. I will have to check her past games to see how alignment indicative this actually is.

Herta's vote on Marci is the worst and while I don't think his play is like *that* scummy I think the jump on her is ?probably? More likely to come from scum than Hiraki and Juice and if I'm looking for scum on the Marci wagon I would start there

- "Does not feel particularly genuine" is just kind of random shading I can't say much about,
- The thing you pointed out I'll give you probably looks bad from your pov, but in my mind it made complete sense so my immediate, knee-jerk reaction was that you were trying to force something,
- You said the Juice push was really easy and then proceeded to vote xem yourself. In fact now that I reread it you had already sussed Juice at the time:

Spoiler:

[...]
I think Juice's hop on the wagon looks really bad. Whether that makes xem scum I am uncertain but I would definitely like them to elaborate on xeir vote at the very least.

UNVOTE:

Niche theory, but it is even possible that you were worried about Juice being an easy wagon yourself and sort of ended up projecting that onto me. I'll vaguely mention that there are a couple more small details but I'll contain myself and stop here =P

However,

on further consideration I think there is stuff in your ISO that's actually quite promising. I like some of your explanation about your interaction with marci, but I'll try to talk about something else for the sake of not making too big a deal out of that.

Spoiler:

[...]
i kind of townlean hiraki for that reason btw because like, I don't think calling everyone scummy without specifying is likely to get townread at all and i think calling me weird is like, something scum is less likely to do because they are generally more concerned with their image and doing so has very little benefit - i don't think he would make that post expecting to get townread for it, if that makes sense

This seems to show a solvey mindset. I also think it's sort of a difficult line of reasoning to come up with as scum.

Also, post 190 is just really... comprehensive. One detail I like is this:

Spoiler:

For someone who likes details, you really don't like to give them yourself. I also feel like this entire post is a really weird retraction of something that you actually had a valid point on (regardless of the fact that I disagree with where the point is going). Note that in my original post I said that SvS was a reach and Ausuka is giving some major OMGUS vibes.

I mean, I didn't say I like details a lot, that was your characterisation of my play. I didn't think giving a lot of detail was necessary there, but I'll elaborate here. [...]

because I think there is some probability that if Hiraki is town here, scum gets a bit "spooked" and doesn't say that they didn't think lots of detail was necessary.

To conclude, I think some of the towny stuff you've posted probably outweighs the parts I dislike about your push on me. I just think faking e.g. 190 would require a certain level of skill as scum. I haven't ruled out the possibility you are capable of this as scum and this is sort of a note to self to think about this more.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the simple, easy, plain interpretation leans towards you!town.

[Aisa]

Where to now?

I am still interested in Juice answering the questions asked of them. I think enough questions have been asked so I'm not going to add any to the pile.

I understand I need to take a wider look at other players in this game, I'll try to do that tomorrow.

Ausuka's frustration seems genuine to me, and Marci is blatantly trolling and egging them on.

Correct - this is the perceived motion. To me, town normally does not act in a behavior to cause so much disruption. Acting that way, then getting run up, only for someone (generally town) to then say "hey, this is kind of dumb" is a textbook scumplay to me. It gives them both independent town points while actually being on the same dependent team. It is not supposed to be SvS on first thought but behind the surface layer I think it becomes more probable than TvT. TvS is also probable but really dumb in the long run.

In the abstract sense, yes, clogging up a thread with nonsense that also separates the two partners is a potential scumstrat. In this particular case though I believe that Ausuka is just as frustrated as she presents herself to be, and that marci is feeding and encouraging that frustration on purpose. It could be for nefarious ends, it could just be that they enjoy it. But because Ausuka's reactions appear genuine, it rules out SvS in my mind. Either or neither could feasibly be scum, but probably not both. If I were told one of them MUST be I'd pick marci first, but for now I'd rather just move on and let other things play out.
[...]

I think I'd like you to touch a little on whether you still think Ausuka is genuine? And maybe like a brief comment on what seems genuine about her reaction if that seems appropriate.

[marcistar]

Where to now?

vote meg its a good vote i promise

[marcistar]

trying to decide if I should put effort

[MegAzumarill]

Please do

[MegAzumarill]

I don't think they approach the wagon in the way they did if it was actually a reaction test. Especially since they ignored a lot of questions, at least a few of which were more general and not about the push they now say is a test.

Correct. I agree with you that this whole 'test' is not genuine. My point is that I'm not sure if it comes from town or scum. Gut says town but I really don't trust my gut here.

Your gut says being disengenuous is towny?

[Hiraki]

The wagon hit E-1 only 5-10 posts later. That doesn't sound very safe to me.

And then it dissolved immediately, with Juice perfectly unharmed. That doesn't sound very dangerous to me.

So you voted knowing that it would go down? Are you a fortune teller?

You're continuing to call it a naked pressure vote which is just factually incorrect;

Okay - let's play this game. What is your definition of a naked pressure vote?

Because here's mine. It's a vote where you openly state that you are voting someone for pressure reasons. I don't need to quote - those boxes are checked. I don't know what other definition you could have but I'd consider it an abnormal definition.

And there's also the insinuation that because I wanted to apply pressure, it wasn't a real vote. It very much was, the two aren't mutually exclusive.

No - that's not the point. The point is that if you call it a vote for pressure, the person who is being voted knows that they do not need to worry about it as long as they ignore it. That's why the vote in itself was already off to a bad start. I never said anything about it being a bad vote. You could have a lot of good reasons (of which you have not talked about) behind the vote but instead, you voted because:

I think the RVS posting looked weirdly self-conscious,

and I think there should be more pressure here

Bolded for emphasis.

I don't think they approach the wagon in the way they did if it was actually a reaction test. Especially since they ignored a lot of questions, at least a few of which were more general and not about the push they now say is a test.

Correct. I agree with you that this whole 'test' is not genuine. My point is that I'm not sure if it comes from town or scum. Gut says town but I really don't trust my gut here.

Your gut says being disengenuous is towny?

In this fashion, I've seen it done more as town than as scum. It's not anything I'd like to bet on but it's something I'd use if I had to bet on it.

[Herta]

VOTE: juice