Micro 4 - Double Day Unlimited (Over)

[Maestro]

Hai gaiz. Funny enough, I'm already caught up - I actually asked Chaos for the slot if it was still available. True story.

Based on what I've already seen, UNVOTE: All EXCEPT Jarvis

[Maestro]

OmNom's okay for now in my eyes, but I'll be watching him in the future.

Everything IceGuy said, I agree with wholeheartedly. Why is this option not being considered more readily?

[Maestro]

Awww, c'mon Fate...just because of Mini 1351?

[Maestro]

Oh, ok. Why is that bad? I don't think his play is that scummy. I said so.

[Maestro]

I even added that I'll be watching him, so it should be obvious I'm not that convinced that he isn't scum. Boo.

[Maestro]

^ No idea, but I agree. I think it's suspicious that Om would be flaunting his meta like this since we all should know that as soon as somebody becomes as self-aware as he is, meta becomes useless - at least in the future in this game.

[Maestro]

Wow...hi Mehdi. VC reset, correct Chaos?

VOTE: Fate
VOTE: Jarvis

[Maestro]

@OmNom: I'm not saying you're not town because you're self-aware of your town meta. I'm saying that town meta is now null.

[Maestro]

L-1 for Jarvis. Let's not get complacent about lynching in this game just because we have 2 a day...

[Maestro]

Hah! I'm currently voting Jarvis because I've thought the same thing since I replaced in Mehdi.
I guess I'm just not used to this type of game, and I don't just mean the free-voting...going from a clean VC to L-1 in less than 20 posts is also a new phenomenon to me.

[Maestro]

Agreed with OmNom. Searching for a possible partner at this point is unproductive at best, anti-town at worst - in my opinion nobody is conf-anything until a flip.

[Maestro]

Oh, OmNom. Well now this is just awkward. I'll reread, see who I want to vote. But I'm busy Modding it up right now.

[Maestro]

Haha So let me get this straight Fate. I understand voting me yesterday after I just replaced in and such, but after the person I was pushing for ALL DAY flips scum, you think I could be his partner? You're hilarious.

And what's really hilarious is that I forgot for a second why people had more than one vote. I only need one for who I think is scum.

VOTE: Fate

I realize its also possible Om isn't as good a player as I had hoped, and I'm putting too much expectations on him.

In reality its probably best to have Maestro lynched, because of how UberNinja replaced out as scum when his buddy was under pressure and didn't feel like playing. I mean, fuck UN and that shits blacklistable, but it doesn't change the fact that it makes Maestro more than likely scum

Vote: Maestro

Also, if UberNinja's "replacing out when his partner was under pressure" is a scumtell here as well...why did he replace out during RVS? ...when there was no pressure whatsoever on anybody? The only "pressure" on any of us was that the votes were all over the place and there were a few people at L-2 or L-1.

[Maestro]

Bahaha "Bussing exists"...Mehdi you're hilarious. Look up Mini 1351 - trust me. I know bussing exists.

Either way, fair enough. I'm not saying you need to think he's scum and I wasn't attacking your opinion. Some of us do think he's Mafia, and normally I'd try to persuade you but it seems like you're dead-set on thinking he's not so I don't think there's much more I can do at this point. Where is everybody? Church...?

[Maestro]

^ I don't know what to make of that exchange. We have one scum left, right? Right. N is too null for me right now and Mehdi always bleeds town to me, so I'm thinking Scum is among you two, and this mechanic just begs for this sooo...

VOTE: Om of the Nom
VOTE: Albert B. Rampage

Since you've cross-voted, if scum isn't among you then we'll see what happens. But either way...GG in the end. Town wins.
Since you've cross-voted, if scum is among you this'll be interesting and helpful to figure out who to actually push for an eventually lynch. Carry on.

[Maestro]

...Did either of you see my post...?

[Maestro]

Hah Obviously. Fair enough.

[Maestro]

N knows he just hammered...right? He dies next.

[Maestro]

Because of why I double-voted. Explanation when it's not 4 AM.

[Maestro]

This is LyLo, yes. I replaced UberNinja, Mehdi2277 replaced kcdaspot.

[Maestro]

Yeah, Mehdi - get online please. I'm still all for lynching N.
Nothing has changed in my mind since yesterday except that Om flipped town and that N should be quaking in his boots.

...Unless he some miraculous town-thinking up his ass that I don't know about.

[Maestro]

I double-voted to see if somebody would come in and quickhammer...and by golly somebody did.

I didn't even support the lynch of either of those parties, saying which doesn't mean much now that they've both flipped town...but it should've been obvious from my last post "yesterday" that I had double-voted for the above purpose.

You're quaking...? Really? Why?

[Maestro]

Because I've played a shitty game and I know I look bad. Okay, I'm not quaking, but I honestly wouldn't be surprised if I'm today's

lunch

.

Why? Do you taste good?

[Maestro]

Why does it make little sense from an N POV?
Does it make more sense form my POV? If so, why?

[Maestro]

@Mehdi: Your request is more than appropriate given the situation, I will respond as soon as possible.
(If you're wondering, I'm having problems in the game I'm Modding. I'm not ignoring this.)

[Maestro]

Bad move N. I'm not scum. But if Mehdi quickhammers I blame myself for not paying attention...if he doesn't then I vote you and town wins. Thank you!

[Maestro]

Of course I'm here! But now I'm also at school, so what did you want specifically?

[Maestro]

Maestro I'm ignoring your predecessor while I look at your iso. Mostly because uber only really posted near game start and said little.

And maestro/n can both of you give a full read on the other two players? The more thoughts we have on everything the better.

Maestro

Looking from the start the first thing he does is only have his vote on jarvis. I still can't see bussing at the start as very likely for scum (especially when you consider he did that before ice was lynched and that vote left jarvis at L-1. The next thing is he somewhat fence sits on om. Later when the fate wagon starts he doesn't vote fate but goes with I need to reread. One post later (although it was about 50 posts later threadwise) he goes with fate. Next he votes ABR and Om (both proven town). He later swaps to suspecting n and says he'll add an explanation on it later (which I'd like to hear since why was n's hammer so scummy to swap who you think was scum there?). Although honestly swapping from abr to n there when he could have likely gotten an abr lynch here with om calling him scum a lot is more of a slight town tell there. His posts today on not supporting the lynch of either the two he voted before when he said one could have been scum before is a bit strange. And a bit of a quick minor push on n when it's lylo.

N

Your first several posts have little town motivation and just sound strange (why vote someone mostly inactive near the start of the game when there had been other discussion). His initial town reads are wrong somewhere (the fact he didn't have any null there is slightly weird considering how early his first reads were). The more interesting thing in them was his initial town read on om, but shortly after (two posts later there) starts to doubt him minorly. He explained his vote on ice vs jar later so nothing to add there. Next helps to get jarvis lyncned (although that's null there since all 3 of us voted jarvis in the second part of day 1). His next two scum reads were om and fate. Both pretty off. He unvotes om then revotes him later (although that can be explained as him thinking fate was scummier then and going back to om afterwards). His most recent posts have been sounding more like appeal to I made mistakes before (not an actual name for something, but that's what I'll call it).

Both of you two have sounded somewhat scummy today, but overall I think maestro is a bit more town here.

^ That tells me all I needed to know. Thank you, sir.

Posting Mehdi's answer momentarily, but I'll be voting him just so you know.

[Maestro]

Why did it quote? No idea.

[Maestro]

Quick Q: N, why the V/LA tag?

[Maestro]

Let's look at who everyone said they trusted/didn't trust before:

Me: Trusted everyone, except n and abr
Abr: Trusted me and n
N: Not sure who his town reads were
Maestro: Trusted me and suspected n some near the end.

Killing me or you (assuming n is mafia) would fit better here. I realize this is wifom logic, but it's the thing I noticed first with the kill.

You identify in this post that analyzing this NK, especially given that it put us in LyLo, is WIFOM. I would agree, except that looking at what you put forth in your analysis here, I draw a much more appealing conclusion

IF

I assume that

YOU

are scum:

You are scum: NK me and ABR becomes confused and much less predictable in LyLo since I was seemingly his top scumread, NK N and I become much less predictable in LyLo since N was my top scumread, NK ABR and N and I are still at odds with eachother and easier to manipulate, since we were likely to butt heads because of my already voiced suspicion of him. This is backed up by the fact that you then posted this NK analysis and used it to think through (without actually saying so) a reason why I might be Mafia instead of N. Your last sentence obviously infers as much.

Problem is, you and I view trust differently and prioritize differently in Mafia. As scum, I would NK those who trust me or at least don't outwardly suspect me, since I believe exactly what you believe: that people would look at the NK the next day and look at who the killed person had suspicions of. So you're right, there's major WIFOM here.

Maestro I'm ignoring your predecessor while I look at your iso. Mostly because uber only really posted near game start and said little.

And maestro/n can both of you give a full read on the other two players? The more thoughts we have on everything the better.

Maestro

Looking from the start the first thing he does is only have his vote on jarvis. I still can't see bussing at the start as very likely for scum (especially when you consider he did that before ice was lynched and that vote left jarvis at L-1. The next thing is he somewhat fence sits on om. Later when the fate wagon starts he doesn't vote fate but goes with I need to reread. One post later (although it was about 50 posts later threadwise) he goes with fate. Next he votes ABR and Om (both proven town). He later swaps to suspecting n and says he'll add an explanation on it later (which I'd like to hear since why was n's hammer so scummy to swap who you think was scum there?). Although honestly swapping from abr to n there when he could have likely gotten an abr lynch here with om calling him scum a lot is more of a slight town tell there. His posts today on not supporting the lynch of either the two he voted before when he said one could have been scum before is a bit strange. And a bit of a quick minor push on n when it's lylo.

N

Your first several posts have little town motivation and just sound strange (why vote someone mostly inactive near the start of the game when there had been other discussion). His initial town reads are wrong somewhere (the fact he didn't have any null there is slightly weird considering how early his first reads were). The more interesting thing in them was his initial town read on om, but shortly after (two posts later there) starts to doubt him minorly. He explained his vote on ice vs jar later so nothing to add there. Next helps to get jarvis lyncned (although that's null there since all 3 of us voted jarvis in the second part of day 1). His next two scum reads were om and fate. Both pretty off. He unvotes om then revotes him later (although that can be explained as him thinking fate was scummier then and going back to om afterwards). His most recent posts have been sounding more like appeal to I made mistakes before (not an actual name for something, but that's what I'll call it).

Both of you two have sounded somewhat scummy today, but overall I think maestro is a bit more town here.

Here, yet again, I draw the opposite conclusion. It's not Appeal to Error (which is what I'll call what N did); it's a term I coined and which I will be making a brief Wiki about soon: Appeal to Logic. Yes, some consider this to be a scumtell (there's a ton of argument on emotional investment vs. detached logic) but I believe it to be a nulltell or in many cases a towntell, the latter especially in LyLo. I myself exhibit AtL often, just because I honestly don't often get emotionally invested in forum games on internet sites, regardless of alignment, and I consider many of the things I do as town to be towntells regardless of what others do. Also, if you're thinking of saying that "my level of emotional investment is something I'm conscious of and that should make it null as a towntell," stop right there. I'm saying I consider it a towntell

IN OTHERS

- I'm

recognizing

broadcasting the fact that when looked at in me it is simply a nulltell. I would and do exhibit AtL regardless of alignment, it is a style of my play but IMO a characteristic in others that I more commonly consider a towntell. Because of this though:

N; please link Town meta in your next post.

Overall, however, your reads in this post were discouragingly based on fact rather than analysis. Ergo your reads are meaningless and basically serve only as a condensed version of mine and N's activities throughout this game (barring the occasional "that was strange" or "this was odd"). This is not a problem that any Town-aligned player has with their reads, since Town players look at posts and activity in-game and react to this with constantly changing reads on the situation. The problem for scum arises wherein they look at posts and activity in-game and see only 1) how their attitude should change towards different players depending on who suspects them and 2) things that stand out to them as odd or strange or scummy in others, but that they only consider useful as identifiers of scumminess in others - they already know that these others aren't scum.

(Apologies for broken quote while editing...)

Honestly, these things could be a tell for either way, but you've been more conservative on who you vote and seem to be hoping your reads are correct, whereas Maestro has been thinking in the long-term (see, for instance: turning on Om before Fate had flipped, and me before Om had even flipped, as though he already knew Fate/Om were going to be town). He's been trying to breadcrumb who his next suspect will be before the current one has flipped, so that he can point back and say "I told you so". I play more ... in the moment, I guess - I have no reason to doubt my current vote is on the right person, because if I did I wouldn't be voting them.

This (if it is sincere, as I believe it is) is a flat out towntell IMO. That might explain why Mehdi hasn't posted content since before you made this post...but either way I'll respond to this since it warrants responding.

You're very smart in noticing that this could be a tell either way: being conservative with votes, as well as thinking long-term, could both be a tell either way. Though I'm not sure how thinking long-term could do anything but make me look bad should Player X flip Town while I've already started looking at Player Y, being conservative with votes helps one avoid confrontations based on players' retaliations after being hastily voted, and also cuts down on reaction and discussion originating from these confrontations.

Thinking long-term, at least in the sense that I have done it this game, comes not from a foreknowledge of who will flip what, but instead from constant reminding of the fact that it does not matter. As soon as a lynch occurs, IMO there's no use holding up scumhunting while that person flips, especially in this Double Day game. I immediately look at who did what and said what throughout the events that led up to Player X's lynch and I respond with how my reads have changed according to the events that occur directly during and after their lynch - these events are sometimes the most crucial. Also, thinking ahead at this stage allows me to move past Player X (who has been lynched and is now irrelevant) and focus on any changing scumreads I have on others. The flip just changes the situation even more, and I respond to that as it occurs by doing what I did before and looking over recent events.

I don't understand (at least in this Double Day game) why people got so hung up on waiting until the flip occurs to continue scumhunting. For somebody who's apparently more "in the moment," I'm surprised you don't see this.

I've seen him posting elsewhere. I think he's abandoned us. so let's just get this over and done with.

VOTE: maestro

Bad move N. I'm not scum. But if Mehdi quickhammers I blame myself for not paying attention...if he doesn't then I vote you and town wins. Thank you!

Okay, you're here. I was sick of waiting.

UNVOTE: Maestro

This exchange, just at a glance, makes me think "Town-who's-too-into-the-game-and-doesn't-realize-LyLo-should-be-taken-in-slow-baby-steps." Your latest post would also suggest this. Like I said, all of the above has convinced me to

FoS Mehdi

with intent to vote. If I'm wrong...I'm wrong. Congrats to you for winning as scum.

[Maestro]

Yeah, I know. Impressive wall, right? I was paying attention, I just didn't want it to seem like it.

Waiting on a response from Mehdi now, with some content por favor.
N; thoughts & Town-meta for posterity and to carbon cement my opinion please...?

[Maestro]

I'm not voting either, obviously for different reasons. On the off-chance that you are scum, I want to be the hammerer after a fully thought through LyLo scenario, not after of a quickhammer by you. Any other thoughts on that besides saying "it convinced you"?

[Maestro]

Interesting. 331 makes it seem like your opinion hasn't changed at all...

I'm not sure why we're still talking about the NK. We all know it's WIFOM, what did you want me to respond to exactly?

I didn't go "N dies next, no question about it" to "Mehdi's played scummy throughout," I went "N dies next - but after reread, reanalyze, and reaction test Mehdi looks just as bad if not worse." On that note, me not posting entirely was exactly what I said: it allowed me time to reread and reanalyze, and it allowed me to see how each of you would react to an unresponsive player in LyLo. You reacted with more foreseeable Town-motivation so that made me look even more closely at Mehdi than I already was going to.

Anything else?

[Maestro]

Hmmm...I do think it's opinion whether that's a shitty excuse or not - especially since it is the truth.
Think what you will, I'm waiting on Mehdi as well.

[Maestro]

Yup, a little more than week. Plenty of time.
...But not enough that I'll let Mehdi get by without posting over the weekend. Agreed?

[Maestro]

Hah well said! ...sarcasm not appreciated.

[Maestro]

Nope, that's fine Mehdi. That was a pretty darn good response. Congrats, because I don't know what the heck to do now. N's single completed game wasn't helpful and I've seen a few of your on-goings (awkward...we were simultaneously involved in 3 games together at one point recently) so I know what to think of those. Will get back to this soon, school = priority right now.

[Maestro]

So your opinion never changed since your second post of the game? In that same post, you said both Maestro and I were leaning town - if your opinions haven't changed since then, it means that you must be the scum.

...are you saying this is unlikely?

[Maestro]

Nevermind...it looked like you were using that as definitive evidence to point to Mehdiscum.
Honestly, I've thought this over enough. If you're sum, you deserve this win. If not...go Town.

VOTE: Mehdi2277

[Maestro]

Ah, but see. there's the rub. Post 347 is about as pro-town as you could've gotten after a vote in LyLo. I'm now dead confident. Mehdi is scum.

[Maestro]

I'm not convincing anyone or boosting your ego. I'm just stating something that is now a fact for me. Only town would have reason to not quickhammer in LyLo - my vote's already on Mehdi so my position is clear.

If I were scum, I would've waited for you two to hash it out and I'd've casted the final hammer vote myself (like Mehdi probably hoped he would be able to do). I wouldn't've left it up to your good judgement to choose Mehdi over me if I was scum. If you were scum, you would've quickhammered and it would be "Game Over: Mafia Win" at this point. But you didn't do that. So I was merely pointing out that since I know I'm Town, and that just clinched you as Town from my POV, my vote now has no error margin/whatever you want to call it.

There's no chance that Mehdi is not scum. GG. Town wins.

[Maestro]

Mehdi, I will kill you if you win as scum after coming back for the first time in 2 days to post fluff during LyLo.
You played a good game, sir. Too bad N started bleeding Town - you almost had me at the beginning of today.

[Maestro]

Okay, I've got a few days. I'll take this slow.

I guess I'll start by rereading the whole thread.

Do this please, but ask questions of both of us if there's anything you need clarification on

before you vote

.

[Maestro]

Gotcha. So what's your reason for believing me-scum? Further PoE now that N is conf-Town?
What ruled me out before that doesn't rule me out now?

[Maestro]

...

Yes Mehdi, I realize you can't claim scum in a LyLo situation.

I know that I am Town, N is confirmed-town after his posting in LyLo, you are scum. That is the situation.
All that needs to happen now is for N to either realize that on his own or trust me.

[Maestro]

Maestro you realize you have to be scum from my point of view because of PoE.

The funniest part is, you haven't said that I'm scum (the part above quoted for truthery), because you know I'm not. You are.
You've only said that you can't

not

say I'm scum, since admitting that would out you as the scum you are.

[Maestro]

Yes, that is correct. That was a hard-bus of my RoleCop Mafia-Mate from D1 when I replaced in that resulted in a Mafia Win after a not-so-successful LyLo performance on my part.
I don't do terribly well as scum in LyLo, that game should also be a good identifier of that.

[Maestro]

Haha I won out of luck really...should've NKed Aru since he was such a wild card. It worked out though. Anyway.
Thoughts on Posts 359 and 360, Mehdi? Or has the logic completely and utterly convinced you of your loss?

[Maestro]

Haha ok, ok Mehdi. I'll stop.
Do tell, N. Does my play overall look the same in the two games?

[Maestro]

You can check my Wiki page from my profile - it has all other completed or current games from this site. I've only ever played online here.

[Maestro]

Ummm. N? What time is it where you are?

[Maestro]

Patience helps. And I just finished one more

scum game

on here which is micro 5 (

I was town days 1, 2, and 3

).

Haha What?! I'm gonna go look at that one!

[Maestro]

Hmmm...is this game ongoing? I'm sincerely hoping not...

[Maestro]

Hah! Somebody wastes no time...

[Maestro]

Hah that's fine. What's another 12 hours.
P.S. That was odd to read because it's 11:27 AM where I am.

[Maestro]

Hmmm.

@Chaos: is that legal? a double-lynch?

I don't care if I die as long as Mehdi also does; that way we still win.

[Maestro]

What kind of a fucking question is that N.

UNVOTE:

Explain now.

[Maestro]

It wasn't forced. Aw well...when Mehdi comes back he'll hammer. GG

[Maestro]

Oh, you're right. I forgot he already voted. GG folks.

[Maestro]

You still made a mistake though.

[Maestro]

Yeah. Wow...all this time in LyLo and I thought this was going to go our way. GG though, especially to Mehdi. I really thought we had this one...
@N: You definitely took things more slowly than Arugula did in the game where I actually was scum. Were your hands really shaking with the hammer?

[Maestro]

Where's Chaos? I'd like the Post-Game to start so N can stop being all stressed.

[Maestro]

That wasn't just based on that, but it clinched it. I had been reading your previous games, and when you were town in LyLo (Newbie 1228), you actually acted a lot like I am now, but when you were Mafia in LyLo (Mini 1351) your actions were very similar to your current actions. Your long absence at the start of lylo can also be explained by you wanting Mehdi and I to go at each other and one of would hopefully (from your perspective) vote for the other so that you could swoop in and quickhammer.

Of course, I could be completely wrong. If so, I'm sorry.

Don't apologize! It's just a game, and a good one all around IMO.

By the way, if you'd asked about the above concern, which is completely valid by the way, I would've explained how my confidence on this site shot through the roof after I got through my first Newbie game. The Post-Game was a great experience; with a Newb-scum win everyone was throwing around congratulations and advice and it made me realize that this site can be a great place to not only play, but get better at playing. It's been my goal to continue making sure that shows wherever I appear on-site. Yeah, I know. I'm a naive idealist.

For any future meta-checks you do, make sure you take experience/confidence-based differences in play into consideration.
Especially if you're comparing any player's other games to their very first game.

P-Edit: Damn bro. Me-thinks you might take this a little too seriously...but it was intense, I'll give you that.

[Maestro]

Hey N, what time is it over there? I just realized that, if it were me, the shaking hands thing might be from lack of sleep...

[Maestro]

Ah, well then. Endgame thoughts?

[Maestro]

You do take this too seriously...

N, I've been lynched. There is no possible reason for me to fuck with you at this point - regardless of alignment. The others can't post till Chaos posts the flip, but I'm town. It doesn't matter at this point, I probably shouldn't've tried to speak like this till the flip got posted. I figured we could use the Twilight time if you were still online. Jeez, you really think I'd fuck with somebody past Endgame? Seriously, if anybody did that, that'd be messed up.

This is no longer Mafia, this is a forum on an internet site.
Haha "These aren't the droids you're looking for!"

[Maestro]

Oh...and I just realized it must've been interesting for Chaos to see that particular meta-game being used here.

[Maestro]

[Maestro]

Hope N's okay after this LyLo...Jesus... Haha

[Maestro]

Hindsight's 20/20, bro.