Micro 65: No Town Lynched (Game Over)

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

/confirm

VOTE: RedCoyote

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I think Mykonian has a valid point if Thor does in fact do "stuff like this" often. By itself, I think the case is rather weak for a lynch.

Thor made that sentence on purpose, he knows I don't replace out, we've played with each other before. The only goal it has is to insert that little piece of text that he's town. Now, I know confident scum. And I know I pulled stuff like that often. Each time town didn't notice it was a little victory, because it actually works. This is Thor trying to get in his favorite position.

Links to Thor doing this?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Myk is the one who is claiming that Thor does it - it is up to him to back up that statement.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I am not buying Mykonian as town. He makes a really weak case against Thor. When asked to back up that statement he doesn't and keeps talking about whether or not he like Thor. I think in this situation, a quicklynch is good. Better a quicklynch with a shot of getting scum than a long-drawn out process. My gut is saying "go for Mykonian." Hope he flips scum.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Mykonian

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I don't really follow Thor's logic in saying I am obvtown if Mykonian flips town. The instant reaction from Thor when I hammered was that if Mykonian flips town, I am obvious town, which makes hammering a townie a good scum-gambit. Or perhaps that is what Thor wants us to think.

Anyways, I am really curious to see Mykonian's flip and will post more analysis once that is revealed. At this point, it is too tedious to post analysis considering every read needs to have two options i.e. If Myk is town, FOS X, if Myk is scum, FOS Y etc.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

It is not MYLO if there is no town-lynch. We are at 4-2. If we lynch town and that player gets nk'ed, we'll be at 3-2. LYLO.

I'll re-read and post more analysis in a little bit.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Why would we do that?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

@ Shos, if you disagree with Thor's read, why are you voting me instead of Thor? I wasn't the one who claimed the quickhammer made me obvtown.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I had a gut read on MyKonian being scum. I was wrong.

Why, in your opinion does Thor immediately call me "obvtown" if Mykonian flips town?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

@ Thor, I don't have a read on Nacho yet.

It is you I am concerned about. If someone else had hammered, I wouldn't think they are obvious town, so the question is: why do you think I am obvious town?

It seems to me like a scum-strategy to elicit reactions from the other townies. Call someone obv-town and hope that the others are flabbergasted enough to say "No! how is he obvtown? Vote F-16." This of course would allow you to distance from a lynch.

Dumb scum would immediately go after someone who quickhammers and try to get them lynched. If that player defends himself and the Day is open long enough, town would eventually realize that the hammerer was town and scum are trying to use that hammer to get him lynched.

Smart scum wouldn't do that. They would call the hammerer obv-town to elicit frustrated reactions from the other townies who would hopefully pressure the hammerer.

Of course, I could be wrong, maybe you are just good as town and was accurate in reading me. But if you are scum, this is exactly the strategy I'd expect a smart player like you to use. If Shos is town, it's working. Same if Nacho is town. Same if Gregory is town. Nobody thinks I am town except for you. Which makes your strategy a good one.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

3. You are town and I am scum - I have limited my ability to mislynch you later, rejoice!

Your buddy would still be able to push a mislynch while you can use your "accurate read" for towncred at LYLO. Or maybe you could sit back and watch the town mislynch all on their own. So, I won't discount that possibility.

I don't have a read on Nacho because he made 3 posts this game. One of which is a random vote, the second one, he votes Mykonian and wants to keep the wagon at L-1, the third, he says Gregory is town and that he wouldn't call me town. All these posts read somewhat null to me.

I find Shos slightly scummy for going after me right after the hammer. His 40, and 45 seemed like he was trying too hard to lay the blame on me because I hammered.

Why do you think Nacho is scum?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

RedCoyote, I didn't feel that your input was unnecessary. As I said, I had a gut feeling that Mykonian was scum. He showed disinterest in the game (I've seen this from scum a lot), he didn't answer my questions as to why he felt Thor was town. It is mostly a trigger-reaction. I strongly believed he was scum and wanted to end it hoping I was hammering scum. That would have put us in a better position day 2 because one scum would be gone. I thought of it like a vig-kill. I had an opportunity to kill someone who I strongly felt was scum - I went ahead and took that opportunity. Of course, when I am wrong, it would set the town back. But it was a risk I was willing to take. I didn't know that you could read Mykonian well, so it was probably a mistake not waiting for you.

As for scumreads, right now, I am thinking Shos is likely scum, possibly with Thor. They are doing a ton of arguing but no votes on each other. Shos goes so far as to say Thor is his second biggest target - a convenient place for his buddy.

Also, I explained in 105, why I found Thor suspicious. I'd think he as scum is persuing a very smart strategy. The fact that Shos goes on an all-out attack on Thor while not voting him is concerning to say that least.

I don't have reads on the others yet but more posts from them would help.

who the hell haammers on page 2.

This seems really fake - like trying to fake righteous anger.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

@FF - you don't hammer a lynch as a 'Vig shot' they're totally different things.
Your case on me wouldn't make me smart scum.

Yes, it would because nobody else caught onto you. I caught on because I am smart town. I may not be the best at persuading players but I am usually always right. That is part of the reason I hammered Myk and was shocked that I was wrong - it rarely happens.

I have addressed why I am voting where I am voting - if you think I'm doing it all to protect Shos then why aren't you voting me or him?

Can't decide which of you is more scummy.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Okay, Nacho is town.

So far:

- He has a townread on me (terrible strategy to fake a townread on me as scum considering how suspicious I am of Thor. Nacho reading the DP would know that it could potentially make me suspect him more.

- He is ignoring Thor's vote and going ahead and making a new enemy for himself (Shos).

He is basically putting himself in a position where I might be suspicious of him, Thor wouldn't get off his back, and Shos might OMGUS him. None of his actions make sense from a scum perspective. But I can see it from a town's perspective as genuine.

So, one solid town-read on Nacho, two leaning scum reads on Shos and Thor.

Gregory & RedCoyote would be town to me by POE if I am right about Shos and Thor. I'd still like to hear more from them and I am looking forward to seeing RedCoyote's views as well.

@ Greg, why do you think Nacho would fake a town-read on me as scum?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Shos, I cannot believe you are town. I just can't. You have basically ignored everything I have said, you have ignored the reasoning for my conclusions and continue arguing along those lines. Let's take this a bit slowly:

- No way the Myk wagon was all town - I agree with this. I think Thor is the scum on the wagon and you are the scum off the wagon.

- I don't think Nacho is town for the mere fact that he has a townread on me. I think he is town because he has a townread on me despite knowing that buddying me probably won't do him any good. Let's go through this step by step:

a) Thor says F-16 is town.
b) F-16 questions town read on him, and FOSses Thor and says Thor is scum.
c) Nacho says F-16 is town.

Why would Nacho do that as scum if he knew the likely response from me (question his read and call him scum)? As scum, a good strategy is not have town suspect you, yet Nacho performs actions which when performed by another player resulted in them being suspected. It doesn't make sense as a scum strategy. As town on the other hand, it could be a genuine townread with him not caring whether I suspect him or not. Finding scum and finding town are higher priorities to townies than looking town to others. Nacho's priorities align with those of town's.

why wouldn't he fake a townread on you? buddying, towncred from you, other people are easier to hunt, etc etc.

Thor claimed a townread on me and hot me to suspect him. Why would Nacho expect towncred from me for faking a townread?

Ignoring Thor's vote and attacking you is a towntell because as town, he made a second enemy while ignoring someone suspecting him. If Nacho were scum and you and Thor are town for instance, Nacho would know that since you and Thor are arguing, going after Thor would get you on his side since you have Thor as a "second suspect." He could get one person on his side while attacking another. The fact that he chose to attack you and turn both you and Thor against him makes me believe he doesn't care about forming alliances but rather attacks who he thinks is scum. This in combination with calling me a townread (a third potential enemy based on my suspicion of Thor who had a townread on me) makes literally zero sense as scum.

Shos, do you get what I am saying or are you going to continue to ignore the reasoning? I am highly concerned that you have completely and absolutely

ignored

as opposed to addressed my reasoning while attacking my conclusions?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Thor claimed a townread on me and

got

me to suspect him. Why would Nacho expect towncred from me for faking a townread?

Spelling error. Mod, could you possibly fix this?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Shos is making me laugh out loud. I am not going to vote him but I am declaring intent to hammer Shos/Thor in the future if either reaches L-1. Let's look at it bit by bit:

Point 1)

Post 141, Shos misses the point that my townread on Nacho was unexpected and there is no way Nacho would have known that I would have a townread on him and so Nacho couldn't have buddied me with ulterior motives. Then he posts more stuff about "circular variable dependency" which I don't understand. I doubt anybody else understood it either making it pointless to respond.

Point 2

) The bigger issue to look at here is how Shos seems to have abandoned the idea of me being scum and is instead trying to address me as town and trying to convince me that Nacho could be scum!
Quotes like this;

I know this was directed at greg but, why wouldn't he fake a townread on you? buddying, towncred from you, other people are easier to hunt, etc etc.

If I am his scumread, why answer MY questions directed at Greg?

Point 3

) While simultaneously focussed on convincing Nacho that I am scum, he is focussed on convincing me that Nacho is scum. He can't seem to decide which way to go - and the sheer panic can be seen from him as two townies have townreads on each other with quotes like this demonstrating his panic:

@F16: I'm not following your line of thoughts. he has a townread on you, which makes him town? seriously? U MAD BRO?
how is ignoring thor's vote and attacking me a towntell?? deflecting much?

Both of the accuasations made in this post had already been addressed in my previous post and are in fact strawmen as I show in detail in point 5.

Point 4

) Shos on the defensive:

As I said, I had a gut feeling that Mykonian was scum.

and well, the fact I don't have any proven experience with this kind of play does not make me scum.

I thought he was trying to prove I was scum. All of a sudden, he is trying to justify his FOS on me saying that my playstyle is something he doesn't have experience with. So, basically he is saying "

hey, guys, that was unique play, don't blame me for FOSsing him

" as opposed to "

this is scumplay, F-16 is scum

." Seems more like trying to justify a mislynch on me than trying to pin scum.

Point 5)

Let's look at 151, the post right above.

the second one with the strawmanning is where I asked if F16 considers nacho town because he has a townread on him. This was based on this:

Okay, Nacho is town.
So far:
- He has a townread on me (terrible strategy to fake a townread on me as scum considering how suspicious I am of Thor.

which he really didn't elaborate much on

.

This is a lie. Please click on the link to post 137 above in the quote and see my elaboration - right there in that post.

Conclusion

I can only assume this panic from Shos is because their scumplan of Thor buddying me while Shos trying to lead a mislynch on me isn't working. I think Thor thought I would buddy him back and Shos could get town to mislynch me. Even if Shos goes next, Thor would look innocent at LYLO. Decent plan - but if all goes well and we lynch Shos and Thor, it will have failed spectacularly.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

@ RedCoyote, I get what you are saying regarding Thor's post to me. He says that if he is scum, and I town, I should rejoice since he made it more difficult for himself to mislynch me. But that's not all there is to it since he doesn't account for the fact that if he were scum, part of my goal as town is to lynch him - not just rejoice.

Strong town-read on RedCoyote for his depth of analysis. Even stronger than my townread on Nacho. And based on RedCoyote's arguments I am leaning more towards Thor being scum than Shos although Shos is still my next suspect.

I still think the other scum is Shos because Thor argues with Shos while voting Nacho. Shos argues with Thor while voting me. It seems like they are distancing from each other while going after two different townies. That as a scum strategy makes more sense tome than voting your scumbuddy and arguing with a townie.

Also, I don't understand why Nacho wouldn't try to make me look suspicious if he was scum. He would know that a townie (Shos) is going after me, he can see that Greg is at least marginally suspicious of me. He wouldn't have known that RedCoyote had a townread on me since he made that post before RedCoyote's catch up post. It doesn't make sense that he would go for Shos. Add to that what I have been saying earlier about Nacho having no reason to believe that I would reciprocate his townread considering that I didn't for Thor.

In any case, I'd like to hear opinions from Nacho and Greg. If we are all agreed on Thor, it is a good idea to lynch him now and extrapolate his interactions with other players to see who is the most likely player to be on a scumteam with him.

VOTE: Thor

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Just waiting on Greg now. Still happy with my vote.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I have re-thinking a lot about this game and am wary of Nacho. Nacho made a case on Shos and then voted Thor. I didn't think much of it at that time since I was convinced that Thor was scum.

Also, I am wary of the psychological impact I had from Nacho's post where he calls me town.

I think I was right in that at least one smart scum wouldn't go after me after my hammer but rather call me town. Two people did that near the beginning of the last day phase. Thor and Nacho.

Thor merely said that I was obvtown and that scum wouldn't want to be in the spotlight. It didn't make me feel good that he said it and just made me suspicious of him.

Compare Nacho's post: (I put my thoughts in blue in his post)

This initially came across as extremely pro-town but after Thor's flip, I have a few questions as well and some of things he said do seem counter-intuitive.

Dumb scum would immediately go after someone who quickhammers and try to get them lynched. If that player defends himself and the Day is open long enough, town would eventually realize that the hammerer was town and scum are trying to use that hammer to get him lynched.

Smart scum wouldn't do that. They would call the hammerer obv-town to elicit frustrated reactions from the other townies who would hopefully pressure the hammerer.

This is sort of what I was expecting if Falcon was town. A player that's too confident for his own good who expects he can defend himself and draw out scum with what would be considered a classically scummy move, but isn't to him because he thinks that good things will come out of it. He's not voting right now (

why is this a towntell?

)AND he's attacking someone who has an obvtown read on him, and meanwhile hasn't really formed any strong reads at all (

why is not forming strong reads a town-tell?

). It all adds up to being super fucking confident that he won't be lynched because he just doesn't give a fuck.

so town reads on Gregory and Falcon so far.
RedCoyote sort of reads town I guess?

Vote: shos

Don't really like the "he's scum because he quickhammered" shit, especially since he's gone on and talked about how many quickhammers he's seen lately. He should know by now that they are not inherently scum or town, unfortunately, and the push on him seems like rush for a quicklynch on him and not "pressure to get an explanation", like Thor calls it.

Overall, Nacho's analysis made me feel like he wouldn't just say I am obvtown based on a quickhammer but rather that I would have to earn a town-read from him. When he finally did make the post I felt good because he pointed out good stuff that I did (post reads about who is going after me, etc) and used those stuff to develop his read. In my mind, it legitimized the read and made it seem like I did establish myself as pro-town to another townie.

I suspect this to be mafia manipulation. Nacho knew how to get players to believe him and he knew how to get me on his side. He calls me "confident" for instance.

As far as my experience playing mafia, and from what I've read on the wiki, it is a great move overall as scum to build confidence in a townie and sheep them to a mislynch only to watch as you break that townie's confidence. Difference here is that I caught Nacho doing it.

I was oblivious to this last phase since I thought Thor was scum and Nacho was going up against Thor. Now we see that Thor is in fact town. I can't help but wonder: Is it really co-incidence that Nacho and I have the exact same reads - Thor and Shos as scum-reads? Quite unusual. I accuse Shos and Thor as scum, and Nacho, for whatever reason suspects those same two players. We get Thor lynched and now Nacho is going after Shos. I do think he is following up from his FOS of Shos last phase, but it seemed wierd to me that he went ahead and lynched Thor if Shos was his top suspect.

@ Nacho, if Shos was your top suspect, why did you switch so easily to Thor? Why did you not attempt to persuade me that Shos was scum? You knew I had Shos as a scumread as well and you knew that if you pushed for it, I would probably have voted him.

I don't know about Shos right now. Maybe he is town and Nacho is trying to mislynch him, maybe Nacho is bussing him for town-cred so that he becomes "confirmed" at LYLO and the others crossvote? Maybe Nacho wants me with him at LYLO. I don't know.

I want more opinions and Nacho's response. I won't vote yet. If Nacho does happen to be town, we are done. I think we could rule out scum-pairs based on when someone is online. If anyone else besides Nacho/Shos is online, I'll give a few ideas.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Regarding RedCoyote, I still read him as town. His case on Thor definitely came from a town motivation and I can see he put a lot of thought into it.

Greg: not sure why everyone calls him town (Thor/Nacho). He suspected Thor for having a townread, but other than that, he is null to me. He needs to get out here and start posting more.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I can see where you are coming from regarding your first two points. Regarding the third, the reason you initially gave for lynching Thor was that everybody else was a townread to you.

Coming to that, your main reasoning for thinking Greg is town is that he refused to accept Thor's townread on him. Why is it a townread in and of itself? Can't scum question townreads on themselves - in order to look town?

Why do you think RedCoyote is town? You had already claimed that Greg was town on Day1 twilight when he questioned the townread on him. Why wouldn't scum-RedCoyote have potentially seen that as a way to look even more town by questioning the townread on him?

Who do you think is Shos's partner and why?

If Nacho does happen to be town, we are done.

What do you mean by this, exactly?

It means if you are town and I vote you, scum will hammer which makes me not want to vote unless I am absolutely certain. Coming to that, you really must be 100% certain that Shos is scum. Why the lack of doubt. I mean, from your POV, I/RC or I/Greg could be scum and if we were, we would have hammered for the win.

and I can see he put a lot of thought into it.

Why does this make him town? I can give you plenty of effort posting, but it won't make me town. And REDCOYOTE is fantastic as effort posting, and it most definitely certainly does not make him town.

I was unaware of RedCoyote in particular being a good effort poster. I am pointing out that the depth of his posts make him likely town. For instance, when he pointed out that Thor hadn't really addressed my response to him and specifically mentioned how Thor neglected to take into account the fact that I should be scumhunting as opposed to rejoicing as town.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Okay, well at least we can rule out me being scum if Shos is town.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

How did you become confident that Nacho is town?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

@ RC, so who is Shos's buddy?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

There are 10 ways this could go:

I didn't hammer Shos so we strike out the first 3.

1) F-16/RC

2) F-16/Greg

3) F-16/Nacho

4) F-16/Shos

From my POV, there are 6 ways this could go:

5) Shos/Nacho
6) Shos/Greg
7) Shos/ RC
8) Nacho/Greg
9) Nacho/RC
10) Greg/RC

I'll elaborate on all 6 possibilities and try to figure out a pattern from there. In the meantime, it will be helpful if Greg logs on and doesn't hammer. That eliminates a potential scumteam of Greg/Nacho and Greg/RC as well. We can really narrow it down from there.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Shos, who do you think is the scumteam and why?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

But if it is Nacho/RC, why would they give themselves away and both vote the same player instead of keeping their options open and voting two different players or maybe have person vote and the other lie waiting to hammer whenever a townie votes them?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Also, why is Greg a likelier night-kill than me?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Nacho should be made to answer my last question to him, fyi.

You do realize he did accuse me of that though, yeah?
How do you feel about Red's case on me?

I want to hear a response to this as well.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

So, why aren't you voting Nacho?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Yeah, I realize that's L-1. I also realize that Nacho-shos aren't scum together. Let's do this, F16.

Go with what you know is right her

e.

You do know that Nacho could be bussing Shos and the other way around to hopefully make it seem like one of them is confirmed at 3P LYLO and give them a good chance of winning right?

I mean there are two ways to play a 5P LYLO. One way is to wait for a townie to slip and quickhammer. However, if one scum is lynched with this plan, the other scum will probably get lynched as well. The other strategy is to go for each other. That way, they make sure they look like town in 3P LYLO and maximize their chances at winning.

The bolded part makes no sense either. How would I know what's "right?" I have no idea which pair is scum and I find your flip-flop on Nacho was left largely unexplained and based on very minor reasoning. In fact, Thor's townflip made me suspect Nacho more as opposed to less. That and the fact that Thor wanted Nacho dead at the time of his lynch.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

VOTE: Nacho

RedCoyote, if you are town, post but don't hammer.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Okay,

unvote

I need to rethink this.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

1)

F-16/RC

(F-16 didn't hammer Shos)
2)

F-16/Greg

(F-16 didn't hammer Shos)
3)

F-16/Nacho

(F-16 didn't hammer Shos)
4)

Shos/RC

(RC didn't hammer Nacho)
5)

Greg/RC

(RC didn't hammer Nacho)
6) Shos/Greg
7) Shos/F-16
8) Shos/Nacho
9) Nacho/RC
10) Nacho/Greg

That leaves us with 5 options. Shos could be scum with anyone. Nacho could be scum with RC or Greg. Regardless, there is no situation under which Shos and Nacho are both town. It is absolutely certain without question that one of Nacho or Shos is scum. Obviously we should be lynching one of them today. Let's hear Greg's input. In the meantime, I'll re-read closely with the new information that we have.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I think Shos is our best bet. Meta from Scumhunter's Scumthing shows that as well. I've been following that game.

Shos's cases have been bad from Day 2 onward. I made a post explaining why he was likely scum. His later posts really made me feel like he was town just because of the fight he was putting up. But it obvious now from meta that he fights as town and scum so this is actually a null tell for him.

Now, going back to Day 2, Shos was one of the scummiest players there so I'll off of that.

I have intent to hammer Shos.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

VOTE: Shos

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Mine?

^ What does this mean? You posted it more than once.

Mine? Mine? Mine? (Equinox)

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I think it is fairly obvious that I am town based on the fact that Shos immediately started gunning for me after I hammered Myk. I pretty much drew him out as scum. Between Nacho and Greg, I am not sure although leaning Greg. I can see Nacho potentially bussing Shos but it seems less likely that scum not interacting with each other very much. I am concerned about Greg's activity level and why players called him town. He was null to me, mostly. I've done meta research on Greg and he seems much more active as town - although I haven't found a scum game of his. Also, he was the only player not to vote for Shos - he wasn't online at all. The Thor hammer was bad too. RC said it was Greg as well and he died - although that could be because he was confirmed town by not hammering Nacho. I'll post more later.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Okay, fair enough. I hammered Shos because I didn't want to let him get away from being lynched. He was nearly about to be lynched in this game (http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=23748) for the entire game and somehow sneaked through. I didn't want to give him that chance when I suspected that he was scum.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Hopefully we can see some real analysis when you get time to post.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I agree. There are plenty - you and Greg might as well cross-vote.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

It was the most obvious one.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

A better question: If you have plenty of reasons to believe I am town vs Greg's solitary towntell of questioning town-reads on him, why aren't you voting Greg yet?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

This is really frustrating. Greg, could you either please post or be replaced? Sure, I get that you are busy and stuff but you have 8 posts. That's about it. You are prod-dodging as well with the timing of your posts. Please interact with me and give me something substantial to work off of if you are town.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Okay, Greg is town.

VOTE: Nacho

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Greg, you need to unvote quickly before Nacho can hammer so I can explain why he is scum.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

... And he logged off. I am going to hit things if Greg's inactivity is going to cost us this game. This is honestly the dumbest thing I've seen. Log on once every two days, complain about people ending the day earlier, and voting wrong at LYLO and actually logging off without discussing anything so that scum can hammer. Seriously, Greg, you've single-handed lost us this game. I really don't have any hope you'll log on again before Nacho because your next log on is probably going to 10 days later. Lurker-town ftw.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

So, why aren't you?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

UNVOTE:

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Lol, so it was Greg all along? I thought so at the beginning of the Day Phase but his mega-post seemed really mega-town.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Yeah, I guess it was terrible. I don't know what to say. He sold me on his townie-ness with that single post. He seemed to have put in way too much effort that he got me to backtrack on my scum-read of him.

VOTE: Gregory

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I'll post a case on why Greg is scum later tonight.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Mine?

Okay, you gotta tell me what this means.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Why Greg is scum:

1) He has been mostly inactive. In the games Greg has played as town, he usually has some of the highest post counts in the game. He is spontaneous as opposed to reactive. I checked his meta. I could link it but you have played with him in Mafia by the River and he has been very active then too.

2) He has never led the town in any direction. He has always been following whatever others have said. He said he found you scummy because of your "wierd" vote on Myk - which isn't even a scumtell. He said he doesn't "like" Thor a bit leaving himself open to as many options as possible. When you, me, Shos, and Thor were going at it, he posts a prod-dodge. Later he comes in and hammers Thor when it seemed like Thor was the likely lynch.

3) Here is the best evidence of Greg-scum: Ambiguity and Equivocation. And refusal to commit to a position.

Part 1:

agreed. What if smart scum would be the hammerer? That would give scum a pretty good reason to vote any of the bobs attacking him. thats win win, just need balls or brains.

but then again, I don't see you and thor together, and i don't like him a bit.

Part 2

:

nacho's seemed the weirdest. ye, that hammer was weird as hell, but at least it had a reason (kinda). putting someone at l-1 just for the sake of it?

Part 3:

nacho finding me obv town seems strange, as we tunneled last game 24/7 on eachother. I know, it shouldn't matter. new game etc. Still, him calling me obv-town might be a way to dodge that situation.

Part 4

: Wtf does the bolded part mean really? I mean, this guy is keeping open every option while waffling and fence-sitting abotu every option.

Don’t know yet. Prob cobalt then, as it would make sense for nacho to keep day 1 wagon at L-1 to let his bud totally out of the chaos of day 1. A fast lynch would have been great then. F16 is an option.... nothing more really.

been playing decently except for the page 3 hammah. Buuut, I don’t buy that.

Part 5:

yesterday in the train though it hit me that nacho-sho's doesn't make a lot of sence. if my memory doesn't fail, I'd say I remember nacho being the guy going head first against sho's. and while I know there are scum players who like nothing more then to buss their partner 24/7, and I could see nacho doing that, the reactions by sho's seemed different then I'd expect if nacho were his partner. gonna read into that again.

4) Interactions with Shos - Shos never said much about Greg at all. Greg never really said much about Shos at all. There was no FOS on each other, no buddying, nothing. Just the sort of interaction I would expect between scumbuddies - mostly focus on other players.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Why would I "panic" as scum? I'd know that I would need to go one on one with you. I had already said you were my FOS. Then you voted me. There is nothing to panic about if I were scum.

You are pointing out my bad vote on Nacho but you don't explain why it is necessarily scummy at all.

What happened at that time was that this:

- I was convinced you were scum.
- I didn't understand why Nacho didn't see me as so obviously town.
- Nacho asks a few questions and I have a slight suspicion of him.
- Nacho-paranoia sets in and I start to wonder whether I was wrong and whether Nacho really was scum and pulling a fast one on us. His recent victory in Avast C++ doesn't help.
- You come out with a pro-town looking post and vote me. Suddenly, I get scared that Nacho might hammer and that you just lost town the game.

It doesn't make sense from a scum perspective. I didn't really let Nacho-paranoia show at all. Logically, I knew you were scum. But at the back of my mind, I wondered if Nacho was in fact scum who orchestrated a brilliant bus of Shos to get himself to LYLO. Now if I were scum, I'd smoothly and flawlessly vote you back knowing that Nacho was town. My vote on Nacho was terrible but it doesn't show scum intent.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

This was an interesting game. I think I made a few good moves and a lot of bad moves but luckily Nacho was able to drive home the win from a nearly hopeless situation. It was still fun playing with Thor and Nacho. I've heard a lot about how great you guys are but never really got a chance to play with either of you before this. Thor was really good at figuring out I was town. I don't know why I suspected you, Thor. I guess when someone with two scummies including "best mafia performance" suddenly said I was obvtown for quickhammering, my first reaction was "wtf? Smart scum?"

Then in the end, despite both Nacho being on the right track (Greg), I let my paranoia of Nacho being scum get to me eventually, however, we still managed to lynch Greg and get a win for town. I did a lot of meta-research the night before 3P LYLO. I knew if Nacho was town, we had this in the bag. If Nacho was scum, it would have been 1-1 between me and Nacho. However, Greg's extreme lurking gave him away and I noticed he wasn't always like that in other games. Nacho pretty much won the game for us at that point.

I think RedCoyote played really well too figuring out both scum before dying. And Thor, really, how the f*** were you so sure I was town? It was remarkable really how you figured it out. Also, Thor going up against Nacho made me believe one of them was scum.

Well, if I am going to change one thing - I won't be quickhammering anyone in any other games. While it did draw Shos out, it also made me suspect Thor and led to a total of two mislynches and one scum lynch. Sorry about pushing your lynch Thor.

Well done everyone.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Chalking up another win on my wiki thanks to Nacho lol.

Btw, Thor, can I steal your wiki layout? It is awesome.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Yeah, while Nacho did great, I think part of the reason was that mafia didn't really do that well either.

Thanks Equinox for modding. This was a fun game.

Can we see the scum QT?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

@ Greg, no. I would have said I was conf-town and that I would take my time to evaluate both sides of the story and re-read everything. I would have pushed Nacho to explain why he didn't think I was obvtown. I initially thought you were scum but Nacho not voting you was what caused the suspicion. It seemed to me like he was holding out on saying anything to get you on his side - which was exactly what he was doing - only thing is he was town! I know I wouldn't have hammered right away but I don't know who I would have ultimately voted for or whether I would have stuck with my initial read on you but I think Nacho would have been able to persuade me better than you since he was much more active and much more convincing and persuasive - at least that's what I'd like to think - it is all hypothetical.