Micro 95- The Beehive Mystery 2.5

[mozamis]

To be oh so very original,

VOTE: ORCUS_THEORIGINAL

[mozamis]

Lets get this show on the road. I'm gonna shamelessly sheep Siv and

UNVOTE

VOTE JMO16

for sivs reasons, which seem to be: 1) Drawing attention to a jokey remark/vote on Umbrage's part. Seems slightly scummy on Jmo's part, stirring up trouble.
2) Fluffy questions.

[mozamis]

@ at Jmo: I think "terrible" is overstating it. You had done the only slightly scummy thing so far. Siv voted for you. I agreed with him. It's how bandwagons normally form.
Siv suggests I didnt follow entirely his reasoning for finding you scummy. However, his post:

It's a completely inconsequential thing that jmo took too much attention to.

was the post i agreed with. Hence the vote on Jmo.

[mozamis]

Yes, I think I see what you mean. Tell me if I'm wrong but you meant "Jmo's questioning of Umbrage's remark WAS the fluffy questioning". Whereas I thought you meant "Jmo's Umbrage remark unhelpful. Plus, guys, look at his other fluffy posts".
To be fair though, you (or perhaps someone else?) had mentioned Jmo's "fluffy question" about someone putting hearts/symbols next to someones name.
So when I posted my vote on Jmo, I was voting for BOTH those reasons. Whereas you, if i understand correctly, were voting for just his Umbrage comment.

[mozamis]

This

Naomi. Why does siv get a heart next to his name!?

and then:

I have a slight scumread on jmo.

The inconsequential thing is umbrage's self-vote. Jmo is asking pretty fluffy

questions

so far.

(my bolding)

note your plural of questions. Thats probably why I put the 2 reasons together.

[mozamis]

@ Siv: so you think both me and Linc are scum? And whats your position on Jmo now, who you were calling scummy only a few posts baack?

[mozamis]

Err, no? I agreed with umbrage on jmo being town, not on lincolm being scum.

Lincolm is tbh maybe scummy, but I'm willing to give him time. The issue for me right now is you.

Sorry, my fault. I read it as you saying "I agree with umbrage's post", and the last bit of her post was her voting Linc. But yeah, you clearly said "...about Jmo", so...

Perhaps someone want to explain why fluffy questions in page 1, where many people still not ask question, is scummy? I don't see wrong with it. (Which mean I think this is fake reasoning)

Fluffy posts/fluffy questions can be a way for scum to actively lurk and to stir up suspicions/sidetrack town. Jmo's question to umbrage about why she voted herself can be seen as a bit fluffy, as it was clearly a "jokey" RVS thing to do by Umbrage. And then he asked Naomi about why Siv got a heart next to his name, when an obvious interpretation is that she was just having fun in RVS. However, that second bit of fluff isn't really scummy, just...fluff.
It was Jmo drawing attention to umbrage's self vote that seemed a bit scummy. It was a fluffy question that didn't really need to be asked.

[mozamis]

Oh, that.

That was random and trying to make fun of naomi and slimer.

How dare you make fun of me? That's so... Mean! D:

I think we are out of RVS now. Could you please comment a bit more on what has been going on?
Like to hear more from Orcinus as well. I'm keeping my vote on Jmo for now, but it's soon going to be time to flush the lurkers out into the open.

[mozamis]

@ Orc - is your vote on Slimer based only on personal dislike?
And why the vote for Topher and then the almost immediate unvote? Do you think he is slimer's scum buddy?

@Umbrage - what do you find wrong about Slimer's Fos? To me it just seems a case of Slimer OMGUSing Orc's original OMGUS. I don't agree with slimer, but it does seem understandable. Why do you think it is scummy?

[mozamis]

Moz came up with a decent reason to vote Siv

Just to be clear, I voted for Jmo.

[mozamis]

Orc, Siv and Topher all look quite town for that argument. If there is scum amongst them, they are playing well. But they all just seem too active, too not worried about what they are posting to be scum.
Slimer hasnt posted much, but he too is being too careless for scum IMO. He couldn't even be bothered to double check who he was voting for, or if he had a Fos on someone.
Jmo I'm neutral on now. He responded pretty well to my vote. He didnt seem too concerned. He hasnt posted that much though, so yeah, I'm neutral on Jmo.

Leaving Naoimi, Umbrage and Lincolm.
Naoimi is on V/LA so no point voting for her.
I agree with Siv (BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH) that Linc looks a bit fluffy. Think Orc mentioned that too. But looked at another game he is in and he loves all the smilies and jokey comments so it could just be his style.
So it's partly a POE vote, I'm afraid. But also not very happy with him calling out Linc for being scum then three posts later decided to join the slimer wagon.

UNVOTE
VOTE UMBRAGE

[mozamis]

I keep forgetting Lincolm is even in this game.

Which is one reason why we need to keep an eye on him.
Umbrage, you're just asserting who is town and scum. You're not explaining your reads. I appreciate often at this stage its gut feelings, or just the odd suspicious phrase, but you're not providing any analysis, just beating your chest and shouting "THESE PEOPLE ARE TOWN/SCUM AND I'VE NO IDEA WHY" (sic.)
You think I'm boring now? You have NO IDEA how many posts in this game I have wanted to be a spelling and grammar nazi about. And why don't people use punctuation? So be grateful I'm only in medium bore mode

[mozamis]

Will you at least try to look town?

NO. THIS IS A SCUMMY THING TO DO.

Votes are on who I think is scummiest at the time. I don't really have a strong scumread on anyone just yet.

UNVOTE: jmo16mla as umbrage says so.
VOTE: theslimer3

For any reason?

[mozamis]

@ Orc -you voted for Siv. Then didn't really make a case on Siv. Then quite quickly unvoted and voted for Jmo. You haven't made a case on Jmo. And yet you are concentrating your fire on Topher? Do you actually think Topher is scum?
I'm keeping my vote on Umbrage for now, but you're not looking massively town to me, Orcy.

[mozamis]

yeah somebody unvote topher ffs.

[mozamis]

xtopherus... eh. Too soon to tell. I'm watching him carefully though. If he is scum things just got a lot more complicated.

You said this one page before your vote on Topher. Now the guy is "scum scum scum"? And you're an experienced player so you know this simply isn't true:

there's no reason for him to become frustrated as a townie

Townies get furstrated the whole time when they are being mislynched, or someone won't listen to them etc.
Need a better case from you Umbrage, otherwise this just looks like oppurtunism.

[mozamis]

so show me where he gets frustrated

You were saying he was acting frustrated town. You said

He does the FRUSTRATED TOWNIE bit very well

So you have already found him being "frustrated town", you dont need me to supply you with your own evidence.

You're also attacking the guy for not "losing it". This is absurd. If people get upset in this game they are normally accused of being "paranoid scum" or using appeals to emotion etc. So you can't say someone is scummy for acting in a reasonable manner, which is what your argument boils down to.

And as soon as Siv unvotes Topher, you unvote? Then vote Slimer again for no reason? It does not seem as you have any principled reasons for voting people, it just seems like you want to lynch someone ASAP.

[mozamis]

@ MOD: could we get a prod for Lincolm? He hasn't posted for four days.

[mozamis]

so who gives a fuck where I put my vote?

Basically, this is against EVERYTHING TOWN IS TRYING TO DO.

And Siv mentions this above, but pretty much THE WHOLE ARGUMENT between Orci and Topher was based on misunderstandings and confusions. Hence Topher getting frustrated, although as YOU pointed out, he didn't lose his cool.

Could you refrain from your ad hominem approach? I'm guessing you're trying to have a laugh, but it's beginning to get tedious. And if I'm wrong, and you are actually town, it's not helping matters. You've called me dumb, boring etc If you were clever or interesting, that would carry more conviction, but...no

[mozamis]

Moz lighten up.

Umbrage is not in the lynch pool for today.

Umbrage has made a few snide remarks. Be good if he didn't make anymore.
And umbrage is in the lynch pool, because I voted for him.

Yeah siv is flip flopping around, which doesnt make him look great. But scum? I'm not convinced.

[mozamis]

@orc: this seems contradictory, please explain:

can we build a wagon on xtoph or siv they're the only two logical lynches for the day.

Not saying that slimer is town because he isn't

So Slimer isn't town. But siv and Xtoph only 2 logical lynches for the day? Why not Slimer? And if Slimer is scum, then why are you pushing two other people for a lynch?

[mozamis]

mozamis♣, what parts did you think was right about slimers✿ post? why did you choose to defend someone who had contributed nothing but jokes-fluff and hadn't even given reasons out?

Good to see you back Naoimi
I'm not sure if you are talking about one specific post of Slimer's? If so, I'm not sure what you mean.
But my general position on Slimer atm is: yes, he has been fluffy and has posted very little content, but he seems to have a very "low level of perceived threat" (yes, I like that bit of jargon ). He got who he was voting for and his Fos muddled up. (see this post)
I'm assuming that scum would be more careful than that. (It is possible that he is careless scum or bad scum - no offence Slimer - but I'm not getting that feeling from him). So slimer is one of my town reads atm.

And are you gonna vote for anyone?

We need to hear from Lincolm soon. And Jmo.

[mozamis]

Gonna keep my eye on Umbrage. But Jmo needs some pressure on him. He's lurking big time. Plus he's been quite active in his other games over the last few days, which is even worse. So

UNVOTE
VOTE JMO

[mozamis]

Quite active? More like lurking. And I've only got one game going on besides this. So why did you say games?

This is terrible^^

Give me a while to re read and catch up. I've been reding. Just not posting.

OH. MY. GOD. I. MADE. A. MISTAKE. Yes, well done, 1st prize. You are only in one other game. Although you have been posting more in that. (8 posts today I think.)
You haven't been contributing, that was clearly the gist of my post.

[mozamis]

@Umbrage: naoimi is quite young. You're crossing that line between having a laugh and just being unpleasant. Please stop before it gets out of hand.

If you've been paying attention to the game,you would know that I voted for you before I commented on your "snide remarks". I did wonder if you would comeback to this and try and hide behind an OMGUS defence. But it's pitifully transparent, and inconsistent with the facts.
Or maybe you're just lazy, useless town...

I think xtoph-umbrage are probably the only logical lynches for today.

I agree that Orc is prob town. But I still have a town read on Topher. Lets please not forget about the lurkers Jmo and Lincolm. As you say, Umbrage is possible too.

[mozamis]

Long story short, Umbrage✿ hates us all.

QFT

[mozamis]

Mozamis♣, why you trying LaL? Isn't there lots of information on most people right now? isn't there a better vote you could be doing? or are you not finding enough scummy behaviour to place a vote on?

I don't want to just lynch all lurkers. But I do want Lincolm and Jmo to contribute. Plus what they did say earlier in the game did not fill me with confidence. Whether they are both scum, I don't know. But I feel there is one amongst them.

[mozamis]

Slimer/jmo need to ring in

Will you quit your damn bitching? Fuck. Ive got shit to do IRL. I told you guys I would catch up soon. Damn.

Yet another post from Jmo that fails to help town in any way.

[mozamis]

@Umbrage: Yes, a career in stand up comedy for you now seems inevitable.
Can somebody else please vote Jmo? Or better still, Jmo any chance of you actually giving us your reads/hunting scum/helping town in someway?

[mozamis]

Now, what to do here that combo breaks it. Um, orc, my xtoph/umbrage being the only two logical lynches is as either umbrage is right or he's making shit up because scum, and everyone else is overwhelmingly town. Although he could be town and wrong... Methinks umbrage does has a bit of a point.

I genuinely don't understand this. "What to do here that combo breaks it" -? Could you rewrite it?
Abd tbh the rest of it as well. Thanks.

Thanks for popping in Lincolm. You seem like a nice guy. Shame I think you probably are nervous scum replacing out.

[mozamis]

That's a really unhelpful post Umbrage. Giving Jmo your scum meta would give all of us your meta, which would be a help.

[mozamis]

@Xtopher: what's your case on Umbrage?

[mozamis]

Sorry, that was slightly disingenuous of me. What I meant was: although Umbrage has been one of my suspects, I am currently having a hard time seeing him as scum. I don't love his playstyle, but he's not trying to blend in at all. If he is scum, he is playing a pretty strange game.
So Topher, why are you voting for Umbrage?

damn it you have jusy posted lol

[mozamis]

I'd prefer to have a lynch. Is a jerk. Not changing anything when it's obviously hurting people. Especially since there are most likely three times as many town players being hurt than scums. Doesn't bother to change even when people point it out. Has useless tunnel vision that isn't helping

And I am sick of his posts.

Yes, but none of that makes him scum.

[mozamis]

Scum ADMITTING that he's finding a vote that people can agree on and that isn't necessarily scummy

Moz, what the hell more do you need

Yes, it's not a great reason for a vote. But it sounds honest. He just sounds like an annoyed townie to me.
I won't be voting for Orci or Slimer.
I won't be hammering Umbrage in a hurry, unless something really dramatic happens.
I'm struggling tbh. Jmo's the only guy I'm happy lynching. I would be keen on Lincolm if he hadn't replaced out.
I could get behing a Siv or Naoimi wagon at a real stretch, but I won't be builiding a case on either of them.

[mozamis]

How exactly can you be so sure? Because he's the only one calling you town? Because you know him? That's the ONLY evidence I see you having in this case. You're both being so anti town with this it's ridiculous.

I'm confused yet again. Who are you talking about Slimer?

[mozamis]

But if you have a role to claim, speak up.

Is someone willing and able to hammer then?
Because otherwise we don't really want a claim.

[mozamis]

@ Mod: could we have a vote count please

[mozamis]

Pretty sure it's only 3 votes on Xtopher Mod.

Fixed

.

[mozamis]

I actually agree with umbrage on a good many points. Just I disagree with the whole xtoph case.

So why are you voting for Umbrage then?

[mozamis]

I think xtoph-umbrage are probably the only logical lynches for today.

This was five posts ago,yet now you disagree with the whole Topher case? Why?

[mozamis]

Sorry, five of your posts ago.

[mozamis]

@Topher: in post 74 you say "Siv is being mighty nonresponsive".
Then 3 posts later you say here that Siv had "already responded". And your initial question to Siv was

Same goes for Siveure... Did you notice that he voted for everyone but me in that one post? Why would he do that?

Siv's only post bewteen your two posts was post 75 in which he clearly does not answer your question.

So, Topher, why did you claim in post 77 that siv had responded, when he hadn't?

[mozamis]

Interesting that you express remorse right when

there's no more time for a viable wagon to form.

VOTE: Siv

Then why vote Siv then?

[mozamis]

You think Siv and Topher are the scum team, right? Then why not leave your vote on Topher, who is closer to a lynch?

[mozamis]

You think Siv and Topher are the scum team, right? Then why not leave your vote on Topher, who is closer to a lynch?

emphasis

Well that was unhelpful. Can't see why you would vote Siv really, if you think topher and siv are scum. Topher was clearly closer to a lynch at that point. I wonder if you were distancing -call siv scum, then when you flip scum, that "clears" siv. Possible, although not definite obviously.

And the fact that moz caught it earns him some (more) townie points.

Smelt a bit like buddying to me.
And to me you seem like you are playing the whole "Oh, I'm already dead card" a bit too strong.
I think you could be scum. Plus the policy lynch reasons. Plus, yeah, I'm struggling to find a better candidate.

If the Umbrage wagon stalls again, I'm happy to lynch Jmo or Siv.

UNVOTE
VOTE UMBRAGE

[mozamis]

think thats Jm0 at 2 votes, Umbrage at L-1.
Ideally we should get a claim form umbrage -but we need alynch, so if someone hammers without a claim, fair enough as we have left it so late.
If he is a PR then aaaaaaaagh etc

[mozamis]

oh yeah, if you can, CLAIM UMBRAGE. I think we can assume someone is ready and willing to hammer.

[mozamis]

Ok, I have changed my mind again. We really don't want a no lynch. Umbrage could well be town. Apart from his changing his vote from Xtopher to Siv, he doesn't seem that scummy.
Basically, I would rather lynch Jmo for lurking/doing nothing than lynch Umbrage for being a tad abrasive.
If we lynch Umbrage today, we are just gonna want to lynch Jmo tomorrow. And at least Umbrage has provided reads/analysis etc Assuming both umbrage and Jmo are town, I'd rather have Umbrage around as he will be more useful.
And who knows, maybe Jmo is scum anyway lol

UNVOTE
VOTE JMO

[mozamis]

I just got out o my other game. Here comes participation

I just got out o my other game. Here comes participation

The more he stalls, the happier I am with a Jmo lynch. Why no contribution Jmo?

[mozamis]

And to me you seem like you are playing the whole "Oh, I'm already dead card" a bit too strong

Yep, I still agree with you
But: why wasn't Umbrage lynched when he was at L-1? Could be cos both scum were on his wagon.
And why has the Jmo wagon failed to get going? Probably cos he's scum and the other scum don't want to bus.

Feeling more confident that Jmo is scum lurker rather than just lurker.

[mozamis]

Normally, Naoimi would be wrong here. Current orthodxy on claiming - I'm just going by the Wiki here -is that you express an intent at L-1, and give the person a chance to claim. However, we were running out of time, and I think Jmo could have guessed that someone would hammer with so little time left. So, yeah a post from Jmo like "So guys, do you want me to claim?" would have been good.
Interesting that Lincolm/Nacho did not speak up until after the lynch.

[mozamis]

bugger forget that just realised Nacho voted for Umbrage. Sorry Nacho.

[mozamis]

Think we should look at Siv tomorrow. He was no where near thr lynch. And weirdly, he unvoted Umbrage but didn't vote again. Looks like nervous scum to me.

[mozamis]

well, he looked quite town anyway, but yeah Orc's death helps him.

UNVOTE
VOTE SIV

The fact that he did not vote near the lynch reeks of nervous scum to me.

[mozamis]

Um...

Siteflakes happen due to internet just dying?

Well, you might be telling the truth. Or not. I'm keeping my vote on you until I see some actual scumhumting from you. As opposed to your flip-flopping and unvoting as soon as someone questioned you about it, which was the hallmark of your play day 1.

Not sure why I unvoted though.

That's not good enough, you must have some inkling as to why you unvoted. A townie would intuitively know.

Also somebody please explain the reasoning that makes xtoph town and me scum based off orc's death?

Either you are misrepping here, or are confused. The two points are separate:

1) At this stage, it seems unlikely that Toph, if he were scum would have killed Orc, since they spent most of day one arguing with each other. Obviously, we can't be certain -Xtopher might be clever scum. But at this stage of Day Two, we don't want to drown town in a load of WIFOM nonsense, which is what scum wants.

2) You being scum has nothing to do with Orc's death, apart from you possibly pulling the trigger I was calling you out for being scum based (partly) on your non vote around the lynch, thus keeping your hands well away from being "dipped in the blood".

[mozamis]

Haven't read that properly yet, but Siv's put Toph at L-1. Absurd thing to do so early on day 2. I really hope no one intends to hammer, because I for one DO NOT want a claim from Toph.

[mozamis]

Read through the thread again. Some general mental notes I made on what to mention.

@Naomi: In post 180, you mentioned the likelihood of a slimer/orcinus team. Now that orci's flipped town, would you think slimer is less likely to be scum at all?


Most important.
From my perspective, the start of mozamis' 102 and the grouping of {me, orcinus, Siveure} suggests the possibility of a moz/Siv team. I feel like having similar (or identical) comments on two town and a scum is a good scummove, and it seemed strangely forced to include Siveure in that post there.
Plus. I think 439 is highly suspect. Pretty sure the same argument in that post could be made against a few players. But he mentions Siveure especially which I think is strange.

Pretty sure there's only the one vote on Siveure, so it's safe to
VOTE: Siveure DtTrikyp

Yeah, I've been rethinking the game. Maybe my reads have just been wrong. I got Jmo badly wrong, so maybe I'm wrong about topher. And Siv's defence actually appeared "robust town" to me, so...yeah, maybe I was wrong about him too.
Also, this post from Topher isn't great.It looks like scum clutching at straws to me. The question to Naoimi seemed quite random - I mean who's talking about a Slimer lynch anyway - and then the stuff about me and Siv...Which is also weird cos it reads as more of an attack on me than it does on Siv, and yet he votes for Siv at the end of it anyway???
Plus, Orcy was town and I'm pretty sure Umbrage is town, so this is a bit of a "I'm out of ideas, lets go with the people I trust" vote.

So, to do a complete 180 - Claim please Toph - I am willing and able to hammer.

[mozamis]

forgot to unvote Siv.

UNVOTE

[mozamis]

lol I saw the unvote and let out a small "aagh".

[mozamis]

C'mon Toph, claim, I don't wan't to hammer you without one. But I will.

[mozamis]

haven't read toph's post yet but saw Siv's unvote ffs
so

VOTE Xtopher

[mozamis]

nice OMGUS from Toph.
Someone hammer him, he's scum.

[mozamis]

So now you're flipping all the reads to make sure you don't look like the one who's leading the mislynches?

If that was the case, then I wouldn't have said in a VERY OPEN TRANSPARENT WAY, "yeah i messed up the Jmo lynch, so now I'm taking other people's advice". And if you flip VT, as you claim, how good is it going to look for me? Not very good, so bit of a waste of time me "trying to look like I'm not pushing the mislynches" (sic.)

[mozamis]

why you keep putting "sic" everywhere? It doesn't actually fit after either of the quotes you've quoted with it.

It's Latin for something, I can't remember precisely what. But it roughly means "to paraphrase" e.g.,
Topher : "Moz is scum, lynch him"
and I later quote you as saying, yeah topher said "Lynch Moz please, he is scum".

[mozamis]

shit, really? well, I have been using that wrong for years lol
Still, nice googling there

[mozamis]

COULD WE HAVE A VOTECOUNT PLEASE MOD?

[mozamis]

So you gonna hammer Siv, now he has claimed?

[mozamis]

yeah i didn't really like the WIFOM chat
xtoph's original point was not that good either, but you bringing something like this up shows that you're preemptively thinking of a defense. why?

He was claiming I was changing my reads so I could fade into the background/not push a mislynch. I was pointing out me hammering him puts me at the foreground.
You can WIFOM that if you want Nacho, but it does not seem pro-town to do so.
Best to focus on lynching Toph, who after all you are voting for.
Slimer, Naomi, thoughts on Topher? Or to put it another way, hammer him asap.

[mozamis]

I've never liked "Vanilla Townie". Always tried to keep it to just 'Town'.

Well, "Vanilla Town" is what I'd go for. That probably wasn't clear. But that was the less important part anyways.

Why are you having a conversation with yourself?
Is it because you have no defence, but want to post something? Bit late for active lurking.

And Siv, you voted you for Xtoph. So I assume you think he's scum. So why no hammer?

[mozamis]

@ Topher -it wasn't that post that "screamed scum" at me. I think I said something like "that post doesn't look great to me".
As I said, really I was just sheeping/bandwagoning my two top town reads, Umbrage and Nacho. They looked town, Orc was town, and they all thought you were scum. So being out of decent ideas myself, I thought I'd follow them.

But yeah, in all good conscience I think I have to

UNVOTE

,
as your response has been good, and I don't have much of a case on you.

[mozamis]

MOD, COULD WE GET A VOTE COUNT PLEASE.

[mozamis]

From one flip-flopper to another lol
Because you have to put who you think is scum under pressure. At that time, I thought he was the scum, so yeah I would have hammered.
And his response...just looks genuinely frustrasted town, without getting hysterical. Like a lot of mafia, its a feeling.

[mozamis]

Unsure. I have a few ideas, but I feel I have been flinging my vote around a good deal, so I'm gonna hold of flinging around suspicions until I feel I have some sort of case.

@Umbrage: now the Xtoph wagon has stalled, are you going to vote Siv?

[mozamis]

I just said why I was not going to do that.

[mozamis]

Good to see Naomi is scum hunting at least, though she is on the wrong track. We need more from Slimer, Umbrage, and Nacho though.
At the moment its really only Toph, Siv and myself playing this game. They're prob both town so thats not much use.

[mozamis]

That would have been a better post from you Siv if you had quoted my initial comment, where I said something like "I've a few ideas, but I don't want to mention them yet since they're vague".
So your question to me was then pointless, since I had already said I wasn't going to mention them.
If I did mention the vague ideas, it wouldn't be that helpful to town. Scum could just jump on the bandwagon, try and derail the thread, throw town into confusion etc

[mozamis]

First quote from Slimer just after Jmo was hammered. Second from right at the start of Day 2.

By the way I'll take responsibilty for this town fail. I pretty much revved the chainsaw wagon here.

Sorry again guys for killing the doctor Dx

What I'm finding odd about these posts is the level of guilt that Slimer felt for Jmo's lynch. I mean, sure the guy voted for him (second vote) but he never pushed the wagon. I was pretty much the only person "pushing it", everyone else basically just accepted it as the compromise policy lurker lynch.
So, yeah why do you feel that you "killed" the doctor, Slimer?

[mozamis]

Just for reference.

DAY 1 LYNCH VC

SIV - Umbrage
TOPHER -
NACHO -
NAOMI -
JMO- Moz, Slimer, Orc, Topher, Naomi (LYNCH).
ORCINUS - Jmo
UMBRAGE - Nacho
Moz -

Not Voting: Siv.

[mozamis]

DAY 2 UNOFFICIAL VC

NACHO -
NAOMI -
SIV -
MOZ - Topher
SLIMER - Siv
UMBRAGE -
TOPHER - Nacho, Umbrage

Not voting: Slimer, Naoimi, Moz.

[mozamis]

I think that's right.
However, it's misleading in the sense that Umbrage voted for Topher first, then Nacho followed. In the VC it's the wrong way round.

[mozamis]

No, I've seen scum replace out quite often. Town do as well, so I think replacing out has to be treated as a "null tell".
Plus, Slimer replaced out of another game as well using the same phrase, which makes me think we should take what he said at face value.
Either way, it does not mean he is town.

[mozamis]

don't really like xtoph's end of the day play, at all
clearing him from an orc death is basically ignoring orc because scum wouldn't be that ballsy is stupid, but clearing xtoph from the kill and immediately going back to suspecting umbrage is worse. it's not really likely that umbrage tries to hammer through his lynches like this, kills the one person on his side, and then continues doing the same shit.

Vote: xtopherusD

Nacho, could you explain your vote on Topher a bit more? Beacuse in the above quote, you say you don't like his end of Day 1 play, but don't really say why. Instead, you just go on to say why clearing Topher after Orc's death is stupid. Which may or may not be true, but has nothing to do with Topher's end of day 1 play.
Then you talk about Umbrage.
Then vote Topher. But I can't see why you vote for Topher? Could you you please explain your vote?

[mozamis]

Um. I think it was actually talking about you.

By "Um", do you mean Umbrage, or do you mean, "Ummm, Moz, it was talking about you"?

Like to a hear a response from Nacho nevertheless.

[mozamis]

your honesty is the main reason that I still consider you likely town

Okay then. That's pretty convincing along with nacho's case.

VOTE: xtopherusD

L-1.

What I don't understand Siv, is why you have put Topher at L-1 twice today, and yet refused to hammer him?

[mozamis]

Its Day 2, and Xtopher is at L-1 for the second time.

[mozamis]

Yeah I agree that Umbrage is town. Umbrage has been consistently anti-Topher.
Siv is one of my possible scum suspects. Umbrage was against Siv at one point. Not sure about now. Naoimi I think has Siv as one of her suspects.

[mozamis]

My big problem is that killing him right now gets me quicklynched tomorrow, and yeah, I don't want this to happen

Before you seemed more concerned with saving your own neck. Now you're saying:

then I figured we should use the whole day and hammering right away would be stupid.
THIS time I don't have the opportunity to hammer him.

Seems a contradiction.
Much more likely that your nervous scum. Once again,

VOTE SIV.

[mozamis]

@ bacde yeah I think you're right about Topher. He seems quite relaxed most of the time. He's had the occasional outburst of frustration, but that's to be expected if you are town and get tunnelled for most of the game, as I think he probably has been.
And note how Siv is desperate to get us all to speculate as to who his scum partner maybe. I see that as a scummy move designed to get us off his back and derail the thread into confused arguments as to who his partner maybe.
On that: Siv, I just want to see you lynched, we will deal with your scum buddy tomorrow.

[mozamis]

Much more likely that your nervous scum.

Likely that his nervous scum does

what

?

Lol irritating of you Topher but yeah kinda funny damn you

I don't understand why we can't meet halfway and just lynch Siveure today.

I mean. I think it's moz/Siv. Naomi thinks it's moz/Siv. Bunch of people think it's me/Siv. Why are we insisting on arguing when we're already agreeing on something?

Completely agree. Not about me and siv obviously, but yeah a lot of people seem to think it is Siv without voting Siv, which needs to change.

At least SOME of you are voting toph based on the siv/xtoph interactions

Is this even true? I thought most were voting Toph for his day 1 Orc interactions, and his end of day 1 play? Can't remember people saying they were voting Toph based on his dealings with Siv.
Sounds like paranoid scum to me.

[mozamis]

Maybe "paranoid" is too strong a word. I certainly don't want to get bogged down in semantics, so let's just say Siv looks way too worried about how he looks. Self conscious, paranoid -whatever. Just too worried about his own posts I guess.

[mozamis]

@ Umbrage -stop shouting at people. No one has really made a case on Topher all game. Most of it has just been assertion. "Oh, topher's scum, he must be scum, he IS scum!".
No.
As for Siv though, damned if I know. Once again, he looks natural, and pissed off.

UNVOTE.

So, P.O.E. leaves Bacde and Nacho as the most likely candidates. Problem is, they have posted so little in the game there's not much to go on.
Still, bit of pressure on one of 'em does no harm:

VOTE NACHO.

[mozamis]

The biggest problem I have with Siv being scum is that he's harldy trying to blend in, is he?
And the stuff about being relaxed or frustrated is context dependant. Topher has generally been quite relaxed, except when the tunnelling has got to him, which seems fair enough. And Siv got frustrated when under fire as well. Normal reactions from townies I'd say.
Also, I don't "just" think topher is town becuase he looks quite relaxed -apart from my brief sheeping at the start of Day 2, I've been saying he's town for most of the game.

Don't you think Nacho's just been blending in quite nicely?

[mozamis]

Oh and I saw someone shouting incoherently a few posts back. Obviuosly not worth responding to.

[mozamis]

Why not vote for Nacho? His slot has done nothing all game, apart from coming in, seeing the easiest lynch (Topher) and joining that.

[mozamis]

@Umbrage - who's your second choice?

[mozamis]

"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject" (Winston Churchill).

And yes, like anyone with a brain, I reserve my right to change my mind again in this game.

[mozamis]

Yeah, I could vote Topher. Nacho made some good points. And although Umbrage's playstyle is counterproductive, He's my strongest town read, so he does have credibility. And I wasn't that keen on Topher raising suspicions about Bacde in an underhand manner. But if I vote Topher, is anyone gonna hammer? Siv seems unwilling to. Naoimi says Topher is a town read for her.
Siv, if you feel better about it, you vote Topher and I'll hammer him.

[mozamis]

UNVOTE

VOTE XTOPHER

[mozamis]

arse

VOTE XTOPHER

[mozamis]

actually, that didn't make much sense. We still need another vote.

[mozamis]

Well, it didn't make much sense did it? You didn't need to unvote, we just needed someone else to vote, and then I would have hammered AS I SAID.
So, yeah good work Umbrage

[mozamis]

And Siv, you voted you for Xtoph. So I assume you think he's scum. So why no hammer?

Because A) I wasn't here, and B) it's a bit early for hammer, meh.

@Siv - this was about 150 posts ago. Do you agree that it's no longer "a bit early for a hammer"?

[mozamis]

and yeah, if for some reason you are allergic to hammering, let me know when you are on, and I'll unvote and hammer etc.

[mozamis]

I thought you were town day 1. But Umbrage, Siv, Orci thought you were scum. JMO said you were scum (with me I think) in his last post.
So, yeah, nice misrep of the WHOLE OF DAY 1 there.

[mozamis]

Nacho, you're around atm
We need you! What's your take on current events? And why do you think the hammer never seems to fall in this game?

[mozamis]

Siv?

[mozamis]

@MOD: IS SIV DUE A PROD? Think it was Sun when he posted.

[mozamis]

Why aren't you hammering Toph?

[mozamis]

cool you're still on, so we can chat.

[mozamis]

he's already claimed, so you can just hammer.

VOTECOUNT

xtopherusD -

2

[L-2]

Nachomamma8, Umbrage
Siveure DtTrikyp -

3

[L-1]

Bacde, xtopherusD, Naomi-Tan
Nachomamma8 - 0

[L-4]

Naomi-Tan - 0

[L-4]

Umbrage - 0

[L-4]

Bacde - 0

[L-4]

mozamis - 0

[L-4]

Not Voting:

Siveure DtTrikyp, mozamis

Deadline is in (expired on 2013-01-26 09:28:00).

[mozamis]

If you're actually going to hammer I want to officially do it.

Is there a danger of getting modkilled though? Playing against your wincon etc?

[mozamis]

Eh, I guess. What about everyone else?

I'm a little worried how bacde is so sure I'm scum, and don't really want to push it because it probably gets me lynched really quickly because OMGUS.

Well, either Bacde is scum and he's mislynching you or he's misguided town. The old dilema.
As to people lynching you if Toph does flip town, I really don't understand why you think people will think "Oh, the guy who hammers is scum". I mean, it isn't a scumtell. Anyone on Toph's wagon, me included, are equally culpable. Or, we could all be misguided townies.
Etc etc.

We have had a long time to discuss this, you're not "swooping in" before a deadline and hammering without a claim or discussion or anything.
So don't worry about hammering.

[mozamis]

UNVOTE

Need to break the deadlock somehow.
Gonna re-think.

[mozamis]

VOTE XTOPHERUS

[mozamis]

Not a big surprise, she was never gonna get lynched...
I was hoping someone else was the cop though.
Right, so any wrong move and its all over.

[mozamis]

No need to be an arse about it, just saying what I thought.
However, completely agree with your suspicions. I really want to vote them, but it does seem only fair to give everyone their say.
The two poeple who have doen pretty much nothing all game to find scum.
Fos: Nacho, Bacde.

[mozamis]

why not? Me and siv have.

[mozamis]

giving reads tells scum who it's optimal to mislynch in LyLo
and you and siv have, but 3 other people haven't

So you'd rather town just kept quiet and hope we accidently lynch the right person? Town has nothing to lose by being open and honest at this point. Only scum would be worried about giving reads. If scum give their reads, but no one else goes along with it, then its going to be damn difficult to push a mislynch.
You're just waiting to see which way the wind blows. Once again, not helpful to town.

[mozamis]

UNVOTE

Need to break the deadlock somehow.
Gonna re-think.

moz, what did you mean by this?

That was me hoping that by unvoting, Siv could then vote Topher and I could hammer him. Siv had made it pretty clear that he was never gonna hammer, so it seemed the best way to break the deadlock.

The two poeple who have doen pretty much nothing all game to find scum.
Fos: Nacho, Bacde.

I've done nothing all game to find scum? What exactly do you mean by that?
My push on xtopher was nothing, then?

Umbrage pushed it. You gave it a fair bit of hot air. You barley explored any other options though. Your scum hunting this game has consisted of tunnelling Topher. Bravo.

I messed up the quote tags, my response in bold.

Bacde, you could be convinced to vote Nacho then?

[mozamis]

you also ignored the case when I first posted it, if i remember correctly.
why was that?

It wasn't much of a case, if I remember rightly. I didn't ignore it, I did not post a response to it. Probably because I was on Siv's back at the time.

[mozamis]

Ignoring would be if I hadn't read it. I did read it, but I didn't post a response to it. At that time I was unconvinced about Topher. Can't see what Nacho is driving at really. No one responds to every single post in the game.

[mozamis]

Nacho, could you explain your vote on Topher a bit more?

I'm voting Topher because I hate his interactions with Orc, and I hate his voting patterns. Orc is on him from early on in the game, but he moves around a little bit, explores other options. Topher... really doesn't. His votes go from Siveure, for lurking, to Lincolm, for tunneling. And all the while, he doesn't really focus on his main suspect; he focuses on orc. But for some reason he's afraid to vote orc, and keeps focusing on a Lincolm case that he isn't pushing, until he finally votes orc like he wanted to. And both of them handle the fight very differently, with orc prodding other people to give their opinions, and Toph... not so much. His tunneling is straight orc until it's clear that he really won't be getting any more votes, so then he switches to Umbrage! Because he's being loud and getting in other people's ways, which doesn't actually make sense as any sort of scum suspicion at all. Then he argues with orc more about how voting Umbrage is the only way there's going to be a lynch and he doesn't like how orc is acting all important and more important than other people, which reeked of bullshit, then hops on the jmo wagon pretty much instantly... then attacks him for getting lynched, which makes virtually no sense at all. Not to mention the "oh, orc was town? what?" shit at the beginning of the day. That sucked.

tl;dr toph was more obsessed with orc than orc was with toph and yet toph was still afraid to vote him. Orc tried to get toph to compromise on several angles, toph refused to even attempt to start an alternate wagon. fake reactions. shitty suspicions.
what's not to like?

Nacho's case against Topher. Why didn't you make it easier to read? I remember at the time thinking it was slightly unclear (lake of punctuation etc). And yet normally you are a good poster. I would have thought as town you would have put a bit more effort into it. It's almost as if you were hoping no one would bother to read it.
I mean "tl;dr" for your CENTRE PIECE against your scum target??? As town, YOU WANT TOWN to read your arguments, not hide them away ina mass of obfuscation like you did here.

That's why I say you've done very little to help town all game.

[mozamis]

Why so aggressive Nacho? Getting worried?

[mozamis]

Siv, look at Nacho's "contribution" before today's play. It's minimal at best.
But yeah, I could vote for Bedce. Nacho and Bedco are the scum team. It's simple P.O.E.

[mozamis]

Jesus Umbrage, you've had a town read on me all game, and now you're changing it? Frustrating.
I imagine Nacho said that to buddy up a bit to Siv, and then mislynch me. Plus a bit of distancing from his partner.
Don't forget Lincolm either, the guy you called out for being nervous scum at the beginning of the game. Look at the big picture, look at who's been asking questions, posting a lot, changing their reads (me) and look at the guy who came in and sheeped a misynch.

[mozamis]

Anyway,

UNVOTE VOTE BACDE

I'd rather we got Nacho first, as I think he is a bigger threat, but I'm happy with his partner too.

[mozamis]

Of course town would say that. If you change your read on me to scum, then we lose.
Because you've been so obviously town all game. I just so so so doubt that you've been scum, shouting to lynch topher all game. If you have been, then props to you. But it seems unlikely as hell.

[mozamis]

Oh yeah, just cos you like Nacho better than the rest us shouldn't colour your judgement. Try and remain unbiased.

[mozamis]

Ockams's razor, that's the buzzword I've been searching for. Just look at the OBVIOUS. We've all played enough games to know that's normally the right answer.
Sure, occasionally someone like Agar or Rampage pops up, and plays like Siv when they are actually scum, but how often? Not often.

[mozamis]

Why have you unvoted Bacde if you think it is (possibly) Umbrage and Bacde? And your other read was Nacho/Bacde? Common denominator in your read = Bacde.
So lets do him now.
Then hopfeully we can get Nacho tomorrow.

[mozamis]

lake of punctuation

Nice appeal to ridicule. The tactic of sophists, politicians, tabloid journalists, and of course SCUM, throughout the ages.

[mozamis]

And still nothing from Bacde. It's been the same all game, from him and Slimer. Absolutely no interest in catching scum.

[mozamis]

Umbrage, could you stick your vote on a separate line? There's nothing in Klazam's rules about that, so I guess it's ok. But I don't know whether we're going by Klam's rules or Maestro's.

[mozamis]

UNVOTE
VOTE NACHO

[mozamis]

Why do you unvote with every vote, moz?

Old habit. Think when I started I was worried that my new vote wouldn't be counted unless I unvoted. But yeah, pointles really as every rule set says that's unnecessary.

You gonna vote Nacho and get it over with Siv?

[mozamis]

why did you clear siv so quickly yesterday?

why were you barely around for the last few pages, yet again lol And yeah, I know you posted, but once again, you weren't active in the debate in any significant way. All you did was go on the defensive when I attacked you. Funny how I then became your "suspect".

I can't remember when I cleared Siv yesterday - but I've been on and off him all game, as you know. You trying to insinuate that I have private info LOL.
As to the why, it just became very obvious from how active, and flip floppy, and confused he was that he was town.
As opposed to the guy that's come in and gone "Topher, Moz. No discussion, they're scum!"

[mozamis]

Well, the way I see it every townie is either lynchbait or meant to fall for lynchbait in LyLo.

I look likely to vote nacho. At least, umbrage would probably have powerlynched moz.

I'm worried. I think this is the kind of thing nacho could do.

I thought scum would kill me or Umbrage. But yeah, you were a certainty to be left alive as you've changed your mind a lot, and scum probably thought you were more easily manipulated (no offence).
Umbrage too much of a loose canon for scum. He could have gone either way, but he doesn't change his mind easily.

P:edit - don't bother "rereading". Just a ploy to try and confuse you. You know I'm not scum, so it's Nacho.
Hammer the scumbag, so we can all start celebrating

[mozamis]

aaaaaaaaaagh
look at the obvious in future ffs

[mozamis]

now nacho will think he can lurk his way to victory again as scum next time.
jesus.

[mozamis]

The obvious = probably covered up by actual scum.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. This was your mIstake. DON'T OVERCOMPLICATE IT.

[mozamis]

ah well gg nacho wp.
and hard position for you to be in siv. unlucky.

[mozamis]

now nacho will think he can lurk his way to victory again as scum next time.
jesus.

I DIDN'T LURK
my god
this is my normal activity level
if you had actually did something that wasn't just pure rhetoric in lylo, you would have took it. guaranteed. but you put yourself in a position where people would hate to lose to such obvscum behavior

Calm nacho I know you're a v good player - I was worried when you replaced in for that very reason - but you didn't do much more than lurk. Which I was grateful for I must say, having looked at one of your other scum games. I can see you're in a few other games atm, so I was guessing that was the reason. Maybe "lurking" was too strong a word. But you didn't contribute as much as i thought you would, which made me suspicious. And clearly I wasn't "obvscum" -"obvscum" WOULDN'T have told Siv he was "easily manipulated" or "don't bother reading the thread". I was kinda hoping Siv would realise that scum (or scum of my VERY LIMITED ability) would never do that.
Still, you won! So well played

[mozamis]

Nooooo!

Sorry Toph. I should have realised you were town

[mozamis]

Yeah really enjoyed my return to Mafiascum thanks everyone gg!

[mozamis]

I just thought, if I tell the truth and just said what i was thinking, you would have seen I was town. In other words, scum are unlikely to be harsh on the person whose vote they need. Or to tell them to don't read the thread etc (and btw - I genuinely meant no offence, I flip flipped around all game too).
It's wifom at the end of the day i guess. But I assumed -wrongly - that you would think "Right, scum would try and buddy me in LYLO not insult me to my face, so Moz maybe an arse, but he is town".
I think Nacho was right to the extent that I let my emotions get the better of me. I've hardly ever been in LYLO, and certainly not for over a year, so yeah, I guess i got a bit excitable and thought a "stream of consciousness" approach would do.
So my bad as well

[mozamis]

Why did Bacde feel the need to read any of slimer's posts?

yeah why did I read the game at all I wonder

Looks like Toph picked up on a tell here. I thought he was onto something as well. It's called ashimeds tell or something? Anyone know the correct name?
Wish I had hadn't just learned about it lol

[mozamis]

The whole concentrate on siv, but say moz/siv any time you need to extend it worked.

If me and you could play like that as scum, we would never lose lol

[mozamis]

I could probably be talked into voting nacho just like I could probably be talked into voting you or Naomi, but I'd rather leave my vote here

I miss slimer...

You actually preferred slimer's posts to my own?

I mean I read slimer and I was like ...wow

No, you were right. Bacde committed the tell (as I understand it). He came in, and criticised his predecessor's play, which town are less likely to do. Think that's right anyway.

[mozamis]

that was @ Toph.