Micro 214 -- Chosen Mafia (Game Over)

[Alexcellent]

VOTE: JKMatthews
More like, JKMafia, amirite? (That was terrible, I'm sorry).

[Alexcellent]

Unvote, Vote: OhGodMyLife

Why?

[Alexcellent]

Why?

Personal amusement.

Well I can't argue with that.

[Alexcellent]

Alex, why not? If we hadn't already found scum in OGML I'd change my vote to you...

Why would I? As you said, OGML is clearly scum so there's no point in arguing it. If it weren't for the fact that you're obviously his scum buddy and you're just bussing him, then I would be voting him right now.

Game over?

[Alexcellent]

I deserved that.

[Alexcellent]

@HoHum: Whilst I’m perfectly happy to have an RVS wagon on me, I’m curious if there’s a reason why you’re building a wagon on me when there was already a perfectly good RVS wagon on OGML?

[Alexcellent]

Ah wait, I didn't realise Amrun had a vote on me too, disregard my last post!

[Alexcellent]

Yeah, because it makes more sense. HoHum came in, obviously wanted to bandwagon. At the time I thought I had 1 vote on me and OGML had 2, so I was curious why he didn’t want to join the already established wagon, rather than start a new one. But that was entirely because I didn’t see Amrun’s vote on me. Bandwagonning me makes just as much sense as bandwagonning OGML to me at the moment.

Why did you jump off of OGML’s wagon though? Was it actually entirely because of my shitty “game over” joke or do you have a real reason?

[Alexcellent]

Because it was clearly not a serious post. What was scummy about it?

[Alexcellent]

Alex, why not? If we hadn't already found scum in OGML I'd change my vote to you...

This was a serious question?

[Alexcellent]

Fair point I guess.

Essentially I decided I'd rather wait for OGML to show up and react to the post first before I possibly push further. OGML hasn't posted yet, so I didn't see a point in questioning further when his answers will most likely be joke/non-answers. Probably a bad assumption, but I'm sticking to my guns with it.

I didn't answer you seriously because I didn't take your question seriously when it was followed by "If we hadn't already found scum in OGML I'd change my vote to you..."

Do

you

find it scummy or strange that Narrow changed his vote?

[Alexcellent]

If you had your reasons to not pursue that line, fine (not really, but still). But why not at least try to start other conversation?

No other points of conversation were jumping out at me, being on page 1 with little content. I’m not going to force conversation if I have nothing to say.

It being a serious question is pretty consistent with "I would change my vote to you".

But it’s not at all consistent with “If we hadn't already found scum in OGML.”

And you've played this game plenty, surely you realise moving my vote

off

an RVS wagon that had only just begun wouldn't be optimal...

Yeah, what's your point? I had no reason to take that as anything other than an empty threat: “I would change my vote to you if it weren’t already attached to this meaningless RVS wagon.” Followed directly by a joke about already finding scum. I didn't take it as a legitimate post at all. Although this debate is a bit pointless.

I find it overwhelmingly null (oxymoron?).

Fair enough.

[Alexcellent]

But even saying that doesn't say a whole lot to me. It still tells me that any vote you put on me would be fairly weak because you'd still more or less rather see where the RVS wagon goes.

I'm saying fair enough to your thought of it being null. It sparked my curiosity, I questioned, got a bullshit answer, decided not to follow-up for the time being. If no one else was curious by it then that's fair enough.

[Alexcellent]

UNVOTE: JKMatthews
VOTE: runnerman

If I'm the fishiest here, why are you voting Falcon?

[Alexcellent]

So non-commital...

[Alexcellent]

Oh hey, my primary scum read is implying I should move my vote onto someone and put them at L-1 with a big chance of early hammer! What to do...

I would understand this mindset more if we were in a newbie game. It’s a small chance at best, and if someone quickhammers and runnerman flips town then we’ll probably know who the scum is.

[Alexcellent]

Also

UNVOTE:

VOTE: JKMatthews

He looks like a wolf to me. Or as you guys say here, scum.

Chaiiiinssawwwww.
Alex and runnerman are scum. GGs?

Terrible, just terrible. Grasp for even more straws.

@Runnerman - Why the vote on JKMatthews?

[Alexcellent]

Is not quoting an entire post by someone a scumtell now? I didn’t edit or alter your post in anyway, I just referenced one part of it. The fact that you even consider that to be a scumtell doesn't seem like you at all...
Could you explain in what way that it is a chainsaw defense? He did absolutely no defending except for throwing a vote at you because you apparently resemble a wolf – and he did it after I and other people started voting him. In what possible way is he defending me? The topic was on him, not you or me. He perhaps shifted his vote to you to throw heat off of him and side-track town (which is apparently working). If anything it’s more likely that the scum team is you and Runnerman.
He makes a god awful post along the lines of “Alex is scummy but I’m going to throw a random vote on Falcon for terrible reasons.” You make some post about being happy to vote for Runnerman if two other people hadn’t shown up yet. He’s now voting you for even worse reasons than his Falcon vote and you’re still throwing heat my way with this flimsy “chainsaw” defense accusation.

[Alexcellent]

My interactions with you I consider to be scumhunting, as I believe there’s a good chance you’re scum.
My vote and questions to Runnerman are scumhunting. Haven’t interacted with many others yet, but I’ll be able to post more after Friday as I’ll have a lot more time on my hands.

The logic of not wanting to put Runnerman at L-1 without two people being present is admittedly sound. And I usually follow that logic myself. But there’s something about your post that rubs me the wrong way that I don’t quite like though, and I’m not sure what it is. It might be the way that you sat back and agreed with everyone without taking action or questioning Runnerman at all. Maybe I’m tunnelling you without reason, but your play so far has come across as different.

If that’s a “chainsaw defense,” then it’s perhaps the weakest and worst excuse for one in the history of chainsaws and saw related power tools.

I’ll post more a little later in the day and address more points, but the woman that sits behind me keeps on glancing at my screen and sooner or later I’m afraid she’ll realise MafiaScum.net isn’t part of company software.

[Alexcellent]

@JKM - So if someone else were to put Runnerman at L-1, you wouldn't be okay with it?

[Alexcellent]

Amrun obvious scum. These are not town-minded posts she is making, they are posts that want to appear to be town. JKM can be second scum but I'll need to reevaluate as he could also be town feeling targetted. F16 very obvious town.

unvote

vote: Amrun

Weren't you suspicious of Amrun earlier for bandwagoning (#47), why are you doing the same thing now?

Also, why is JKM scum to you and why is F16 town?

[Alexcellent]

Oh hey, my primary scum read is implying I should move my vote onto someone and put them at L-1 with a big chance of early hammer! What to do...

An actual villager wouldn't be so lax in his opinion. What villager would need to think about this? ^

My wagon formed so fast and enthousiastically, it has to have attracted scum. I think we got one here.

This your reason for voting JKM? He didn't even join your wagon though...

[Alexcellent]

@alex - what's your definition of bandwagoning?

Voting for someone who already has a vote on them.

[Alexcellent]

Well Jake's here and OGML is at least going to catch up, so
UNVOTE:
VOTE: runnerman

This is L-1

Better late than never

[Alexcellent]

I don't think JKM and Alex are both scum because of their interaction in this game. But I think one of them is a good possibility, simple statistics and the fact that my wagon caught steam so quickly that it is very likely at least one scum is involved. Alex has been hiding behind oneliners and attempted some awkward buddying with JKM. JKM has been actively conversing. Alex is the scum.

Point out the buddying please. Your wagon caught steam because you appeared scummy.

[Alexcellent]

Maybe I’m tunnelling you without reason, but your play so far has come across as different.

You haven't elaborated on this, so could you talk about what you know of JKMatthews's play and what's giving you the impression that he's been different?

Just little things. His post 52 is the major thing that's thrown me off. It makes sense and I understand why but for some reason I felt like if he thought Runnerman was scummy enough to vote, he'd have done it anyway. But his more recent games in his meta match up with the post if that makes sense. To be honest, I don't have much to go on there.

Also, you haven't yet answered this:

I would understand this mindset more if we were in a newbie game. It’s a small chance at best, and if someone quickhammers and runnerman flips town then we’ll probably know who the scum is.

Alexcellent, you're gambling a whole lot on this "probably" qualifier.

Admittedly, it wasn't phrased as a question, but I'm really interested in why you thought this given that the game had

just

started.

Yeah, it's a gamble I guess. I don't see it being a huge risk though. I just doubt that one or two people would come into the game, read enough of the game to decide to vote someone without even checking the vote count first. Although I guess it has happened, it's just not common.

I've been playing pretty poorly here recently/not paying attention etc I'll up my game.

[Alexcellent]

Okay, I have no work for a few days, so I should be able to post more and work at being a less terrible townie. I haven't exactly been playing this game seriously, going to make more of an effort...

@Runnerman...

Alex definitely the fishiest person atm. But is still congruent with possibly being town.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: F-16_Fighting_Falcon

Because he is only made one post and the first day we need to hear from everyone? MAfia 101?

Amrun conveniently wagoning is noted.

This is the reason I voted you and other people did too. I'm curious as to why you voted F-16 to begin with though. Even if you were voting just to pressure him and hear more from him, why him? There were other people that hadn't posted at all, what made you choose F-16?
What do you currently think of Amrun?
And you think there's scum in JKM and myself - is there any reason outside of statistics and the fact that we both voted for you?

[Alexcellent]

you know what I'm caught up and I agree with Amrun.

Vote runnerman

You agree with Amrun, who is currently voting for me, and then you vote Runnerman?

[Alexcellent]

These last few pages are terrible...

Having just read up on my phone I'm torn between a vote for Amrun or Matthews. Pretty certain Hohum is town from tone and my impeccable gut. Also thinking Alex is town because the arguments leveled at him have seemed more interested in making him look bad than actually trying to determine his alignment.

Falcon, despite agreeing with you re: amtun's question I'd still like to see an answer to it

Nothing very significant. I saw your name being mentioned here and there in old games that I've read, don't remember which, saw you posting in the forums and when your name showed up on the playelist, I immediately recognized it.

F-16, any thoughts on the rest of the game? What do you think of Runnerman? What do you think of Jake?

[Alexcellent]

Yeah, these last few pages were pretty terrible. I'm convinced Jake is town from them, however.
UNVOTE:
hohum's reaction is bizarre, but I'm finding it hard to tell whether I'm just disliking the general arrogance or if I'm actually finding it scummy. I think this is probably the best vote for now:
VOTE: Amrun

Also thinking Alex is town because the arguments leveled at him have seemed more interested in making him look bad than actually trying to determine his alignment.

How does the quality of the arguments against someone determine their alignment?

Alex - what do YOU think of the game?

I don't know right now. Same boat I guess.
I'm finding it difficult to see scum or town between Jake, HoHum and Amrun's reactions. How are you getting a town read on Jake from the last couple of pages?
I'm going to have to reread. I want to hear from Runningman too, and I definitely want to hear more from F-16.

[Alexcellent]

Hey guys, been sick as a dog for the last few days, I'll catch up and post tomorrow.

[Alexcellent]

Ugh... UNVOTE: Runnerman
VOTE: JKMatthews... Yep. That's L-1.

I agree with OGML on JKM's earlier arguments against me. There's definitely more scum motivation in them than town, and he particularly seemed to be trying to discredit me and throw anti-town points my way. I don't think I'm Chosen though. If JKM's scum, I get lynched and I flipped Chosen then I'm pretty sure everyone would be lynching JKM tomorrow three ways from Sunday.

I read through all of the earliest posts between me and JKM. It still feels off and, like OGML pointed out, most of them are scum motivated. They seem more focused on trying to back me into a corner and set me up rather than actually trying to figure out my alignment. But most of all, JKM appeared to see me as 100% scum from the get-go. My initial posts may have been weak, but JKM as town, I feel, wouldn't have attacked me in tunnel-vision mode so aggressively, so early on.
I might be wrong, but my strongest scumread is on JKM at the moment. The HoHum vote was bad, especially this late in the day.

[Alexcellent]

I'm voting you based on your entire playstyle this game.

[Alexcellent]

Mmmm, sweet, sweet opportunism!
You're moving your vote to me now based on stuff that happened in the first 4 pages? Geez...

Your playstyle is still occuring here. Even in this post you don't actually try to refute what I'm saying, propose a counter argument or question me.

[Alexcellent]

I don't like the "I may be wrong but" qualifiers. Gah conflictions.

As town there's no way that I will be 100% certain. The only way anyone here is going to be certain they're lynching scum is if they themselves are scum.

[Alexcellent]

Fair enough I guess

[Alexcellent]

So you're saying that because there are

more

votes on you, you're

less

interested in the reason...?

Trying to twist my words. He could have easily worded this differently/simply asked me what I meant by my post if he was having trouble understanding, but he opted to put words in my mouth.

If you replace "If we hadn't already found scum in OGML" with "If I didn't want to keep this wagon going to see what happens", it all become much clearer, right? But stating "If I didn't want to keep this wagon going to see what happens" changes any potential outcome of keeping the wagon going, so I didn't say that. And even still, I feel like it's a fairly obvious joking way of saying exactly that. Mayyyybe you didn't read it that way, but I dunno...

Is it really fair enough? Obviously you thought it was worth questioning...

It was completely not an obvious joking way of saying it.
And I'd already given him reasons as to why I wasn't continuing to pursue Narrow, yet he continues to pressure me.

I guessss I see your point. Still odd that you seemed intent on keeping things in RVS. I'm gonna keep my vote on you anyway.

I know, but aren't you interested WHY I think it's null...? If it's at odds to what you're thinking, I'd have thought you wanted clarification...

And you're total RVS vote is still on me. If you thought Narrow's behaviour was curious, and nothing much else has happened, does that mean you think my current inquiry of you is scummy?

I particularly don't like this post. As I stated, I had given him reasons for not questioning Narrow further, now he's accusing me of purposefully keeping things in RVS.
Pushing me to move my vote off of him. Probably not scummy, but I don't like how he's telling me what to do with my vote.

Oh hey, my primary scum read is implying I should move my vote onto someone and put them at L-1 with a big chance of early hammer! What to do...

What's bothering me about this post is the use of the word "big." I think JKM knows there wasn't a "big chance" of an early hammer. There seldom is. I'd understand this post if we were playing in The Road to Rome, but not a Micro game with mostly experienced players. I perceive this as another attempt at discrediting me and throwing more anti-town points on me.

Also

UNVOTE:

VOTE: JKMatthews

He looks like a wolf to me. Or as you guys say here, scum.

Chaiiiinssawwwww.
Alex and runnerman are scum. GGs?

What exactly about me looks lupine? You say people should be open with their thinking so scum can't keep up deception, but the reason you give for your vote is that I look scummy...?

So the focus here is on Runnerman. JKM's first reaction isn't to question it but rather to try and incriminate me along with Runnerman. He surely didn't actually consider this to be a "chainsaw defense," maybe he was trying to get a reaction from saying it. But I think this is terrible. If it's a chainsaw, on page 3, it's the weakest possible chainsaw ever. He so could have easily just questioned Runnerman about his vote, but instead he wanted to get me involved in it.

Convenient that you didn't actually quote my whole post that explains why I'm reading it as chainsaw.

Combine runnerman saying everyone should be open with runnerman voting me without giving a reason and it seems like a semi-reasonable call to make. Explain to me how it's grasping at straws? I mean my fake cocky bullshit might be annoying, but how is the argument terrible?

Again, this isn't something I would see town JKM saying. I wasn't misquoting him, I was quoting the part of your post that I was referencing.

I'm attacking Alex, so runnerman (his buddy) attacks me. Isn't that chainsaw? (genuine question, my definition could be off)

The reason it's a scumtell is because you said my argument was terrible while not quoting my actual argument.

And I'm throwing heat your way for

still not scumhunting

and being completely passive in your arguments, while trying to offhandedly dismiss everything I say by saying "terrible" or "you made some post" as though I don't have a solid argument.

You make some post about being happy to vote for Runnerman if two other people hadn’t shown up yet.

Are you saying it's not entirely valid to be concerned about a potential mislynch by one of the players who still isn't present?
Theory: scum are totally happy for this wagon to happen on runnerman because he's chosen. One comes in and "accidentally" lynches him, somehow squirms out of it day 2. I don't want that to happen. Trying to wave that off as invalid, or worse twist it as a scum tell, is mental.

See, that's just it. You weren't scumhunting. You'd asked like, one question to someone else. Other than that it had been a non-stop tunnel vision attack on me with the weakest possible reasons, and most of the reasons were poorly formed by you in your posts.

Ah so suddenly you're ok with me because I'm on the wagon you want me to be on?

You're still very much in my sights, sir...

Putting words in my mouth again, I never said I was okay with him.

Ok, so now that Alex is "taking this game a little more seriously" he's reading more town to me... that's just gut though. (for people who don't know, Alex and I know each other irl and play a lot of Resistance together... so there may be a lot of personality tells there that don't make sense). Alex is being more genuine and asking questions rather than dicking around... it could be that he's realised he's been caught and needs to clean up his act, but it reads as genuine to me.

Also,
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Jake
Your ISO is less than impressive...

As Amrun pointed out, this could be you leaving a foot in the door to scumread me again later.

I keep looking at this and trying to figure out where you could honestly interpret what I said as being about the quality of the arguments, and not about the content. But I can't. You're just twisting it for your scum purposes.

Umm, what's the difference of the content of arguments and their quality?
My point was:
B seems scummy.
A makes a bad (in terms of content, quality, whatever you want to call it) argument against B.
B seems less likely to be scum because...?

That's what I didn't understand...

Not really, I just suddenly felt like you have a way better chance of flipping scum.

Fair enough. Care to explain why? Just that one point?

Amrun - what deflection?

I feel as though in this case, I'm meant to be "B". I feel like a bad argument (as in one that's based on trying to incriminate and discredit someone, rather than determine their alignment) is much more likely to come from scum.

You're now just arguing the definition of the word "bad". Read the quote. If the arguments about Alex are about making him look bad rather than trying to determine his alignment, they are bad arguments to use for scum hunting. This is petty nonsense.

And that.. just, wow. How can you possibly say that's exactly what I was doing? That's insane fearmongering. My theory is that Amrun's scum and I'm chosen. or Amrun's off her meds.

I see this half fluff and half an attempt to discredit Amrun.

Look, I never said the arguments against Alex were "bad." I never said anything about the quality at all. I was talking about what looked like the motivation behind the arguments being made. Town motivation would be to determine Alex's alignment. Scum motivation would be to simply make Alex look scummy. I perceived the latter. JK seems like a bright guy and I have a hard time believing he actually misunderstood this. He's doubling down on his misrep because he got called on it.

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. YOU are misunderstanding ME.
Goal of this game = finding scum. Arguments that don't do this = bad arguments. Therefore, if arguments against Alex are an attempt to paint a bad picture rather than determine his alignment they are, by definition, bad arguments. If this still doesn't make sense, I give up.

As for the chosen thing, the bloodthirsty way Amrun went after me based on what I thought was almost nothing didn't make sense in any other context.
However, it's becoming more apparent that perhaps I was genuinely misunderstood, rather than intentionally misrepped.
I'm happy to
UNVOTE:
VOTE: OGML
seeing as you still seem pretty happy to garner whatever meaning from my words you want rather than actually reading them.

Jake, what's your hohum argument...? And why aren't you voting hohum if your read is 'confirmed'?

I feel like you're splitting hairs on the meaning of the word "bad." I also think this is a bad vote.

Hmmm yeah, just looked as hohum's ISO. It's absolutely woeful. Don't know how I didn't see it before...
UNVOTE:
VOTE: hohum

And this is an even worse vote. It's like JKM is bailing on the whole discussion with OGML and Amrun. Also there's the buddying with Jake...

Good, I love discussion...

Another little thing here. Narrow votes JKM and doesn't provide a reason. JKM comes out with the above quote and no question. Isn't this the same reason that JKM started voting me way earlier? Narrow voted someone and I provided a lack of reasoning and I didn't push the case. Fair enough, yes, JKM asked for a reason afterwards but not until Narrow started talking again. Might not be much but I thought it's something that I would point out.

This was a massive wall of text, so my apologies. But this is the way I've been reading the game and how I see JKM's ISO. I feel like a lot of his posts could have been worded differently, but it just feels like he was trying to back me into a corner early on. Associating me with Runnerman seemed incredibly scummy as well.
Like JKM said, we play Resistance together and there's almost definitely some personality tells that are in the mix here, I just don't feel that he would be playing the way he has been if he were town. He wouldn't have so aggressively tunneled me to begin with. And his buddying with Jake definitely needs to be noted.
You may now all pick this post apart at your leisure.

[Alexcellent]

Depends on your definition. I should've clarified.

So, given that I'm town, what're we thinking? I've been a bit vague in following this game...
I feel like Alex is probably retroactively justifying his vote... why not bring all that stuff up much, much earlier...?

I was absent for a decent chunk of the day, and I only recently ISO'd you again