Micro 214 -- Chosen Mafia (Game Over)

[JKMatthews]

VOTE: OhGodMyLife
Doesn't sound very chosen...

[JKMatthews]

Alex, why not? If we hadn't already found scum in OGML I'd change my vote to you...

[JKMatthews]

Terrible...
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Alexcellent

[JKMatthews]

sigh...
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Alexcellent

[JKMatthews]

Fixing the formatting of the previous failed post...

[JKMatthews]

Am I allowed to vote for Alex again? Or like...

harder

or something?

[JKMatthews]

So you're saying that because there are

more

votes on you, you're

less

interested in the reason...?

[JKMatthews]

Ah right, makes sense. I thought your question was why he chose you over OMGL, given that you both had 2 votes...

Tell me why perceiving the nature of that post as scummy isn't a "real" reason...

[JKMatthews]

Because it was clearly not a serious post. What was scummy about it?

Because it was in response to a serious question from me.

[JKMatthews]

Yes, it was.

-Narrow changes to voting OGML
-You question why
-Narrow gives a total non-answer

-You say "Well I can't argue with that"

-I ask why you don't question it futher

-You give a joke answer

The bolded are the anti-town points. It's RVS and you're given the opportunity to create discussion, but don't.

[JKMatthews]

If you had your reasons to not pursue that line, fine (not really, but still). But why not at least try to start other conversation?

It being a serious question is pretty consistent with "I would change my vote to you". And you've played this game plenty, surely you realise moving my vote

off

an RVS wagon that had only just begun wouldn't be optimal...

I find it overwhelmingly null (oxymoron?).

[JKMatthews]

If you replace "If we hadn't already found scum in OGML" with "If I didn't want to keep this wagon going to see what happens", it all become much clearer, right? But stating "If I didn't want to keep this wagon going to see what happens" changes any potential outcome of keeping the wagon going, so I didn't say that. And even still, I feel like it's a fairly obvious joking way of saying exactly that. Mayyyybe you didn't read it that way, but I dunno...

Is it really fair enough? Obviously you thought it was worth questioning...

[JKMatthews]

I guessss I see your point. Still odd that you seemed intent on keeping things in RVS. I'm gonna keep my vote on you anyway.

I know, but aren't you interested WHY I think it's null...? If it's at odds to what you're thinking, I'd have thought you wanted clarification...

And you're total RVS vote is still on me. If you thought Narrow's behaviour was curious, and nothing much else has happened, does that mean you think my current inquiry of you is scummy?

[JKMatthews]

So with 2 players having not posted yet I'm hesitant to vote runnerman, but yeah I'd be happy for my vote to be there otherwise...

[JKMatthews]

Oh hey, my primary scum read is implying I should move my vote onto someone and put them at L-1 with a big chance of early hammer! What to do...

[JKMatthews]

What exactly about my opinion that Alex is scum trying to mislead me onto your wagon is lax?

[JKMatthews]

Also

UNVOTE:

VOTE: JKMatthews

He looks like a wolf to me. Or as you guys say here, scum.

Chaiiiinssawwwww.
Alex and runnerman are scum. GGs?

What exactly about me looks lupine? You say people should be open with their thinking so scum can't keep up deception, but the reason you give for your vote is that I look scummy...?

[JKMatthews]

Convenient that you didn't actually quote my whole post that explains why I'm reading it as chainsaw.
Combine runnerman saying everyone should be open with runnerman voting me without giving a reason and it seems like a semi-reasonable call to make. Explain to me how it's grasping at straws? I mean my fake cocky bullshit might be annoying, but how is the argument terrible?

[JKMatthews]

I'm attacking Alex, so runnerman (his buddy) attacks me. Isn't that chainsaw? (genuine question, my definition could be off)

The reason it's a scumtell is because you said my argument was terrible while not quoting my actual argument.
And I'm throwing heat your way for

still not scumhunting

and being completely passive in your arguments, while trying to offhandedly dismiss everything I say by saying "terrible" or "you made some post" as though I don't have a solid argument.

You make some post about being happy to vote for Runnerman if two other people hadn’t shown up yet.

Are you saying it's not entirely valid to be concerned about a potential mislynch by one of the players who still isn't present?
Theory: scum are totally happy for this wagon to happen on runnerman because he's chosen. One comes in and "accidentally" lynches him, somehow squirms out of it day 2. I don't want that to happen. Trying to wave that off as invalid, or worse twist it as a scum tell, is mental.

[JKMatthews]

Ah, so comments like "Terrible, just terrible. Grasp for even more straws." are hunting? Unless I force you to engage, you just try to dismiss me and move on. Not very solid scumhunting.
Your "questions" to runnerman have been "why did you make that vote?". After his answer about his vote on Falcon, you just ignored his answer and made sure to try to discredit me. Not very solid scumhunting.

Saying "I would vote you if it weren't risky" and waiting for reaction is essentially taking the same action as voting and asking "why did you vote Falcon?"
And stop fake-metaing me. I go for analysis early on, so the way I act will always be very dependent on the environment I'm in. Telling me my page 3 is different to other page 3s you've seen is silly. Especially if you don't explain what's different and just say "oh you're different".

I agree it's terrible... which is why I'm getting more confident that you two are a team. Are you arguing for me now?

[JKMatthews]

So Amrun, I was using the term correctly, just trying to implement the argument incorrectly?

Alex, depending on who did it, and how soon, I would consider it to be reckless.

Falcon, interesting observation. I see your point, but intrigued that you think it's the scummiest thing to have happened so far...

[JKMatthews]

Sup Jake? You scare me...
(I know I've at least read games with you in them... can't remember if we've played...)

Thoughts so far?

[JKMatthews]

Because you're a madman

Thoughts so far?

[JKMatthews]

F16 said something that echoed my own thinking, this is a town tell. Amrun is the opposite, which is a scum tell for me.

Those aren't town or scum tells at all...

[JKMatthews]

Well Jake's here and OGML is at least going to catch up, so
UNVOTE:
VOTE: runnerman

This is L-1

[JKMatthews]

Ah so suddenly you're ok with me because I'm on the wagon you want me to be on?

You're still very much in my sights, sir...

[JKMatthews]

Explanation...?

[JKMatthews]

runnerman - do you not understand the case against you, or do you just not like it?

Amrun, guessing is for suckers. Explain yourself.

[JKMatthews]

runnerman - do you not understand the case against you, or do you just not like it?

[JKMatthews]

So you don't understand the case against you, but haven't questioned it until now? You've just accused people voting you of being scum. Nice.

You were initially suspicious because you said "Alex is the scummiest, but could also be town, I'm gonna vote for someone else"
-I made the "I'd vote him" comment to gauge your/Alex's reaction while sort of suspecting you
You were only interested in the quick wagon on you, despite the fact there was a quicker wagon of the same size on somebody else when you voted for Falcon
-I began to suspect you strongly
Post 62 "whatever, I'm a villager so if you want to waste a lynch on me go ahead" isn't a townie mindset
Your vote for me as part of this scum driven wagon that I wasn't even a part of creating or even voting for (which Alex was on - what happened to your suspicion of him?).
You saying everyone needs to be open but not making any effort to do anything outside of "mafia 101" as you put it yourself.
Accusing Amrun of not having town motivation behind posts but instead trying to look like town (hypocrisy). Really the issue here is you seem to be just taking snipes where you can as though you're hoping something will catch on, rather than actually scrutinising and looking for scum.
"People who I agree with are townie and people I don't agree with are scummy" is the most foolish thing I've ever read in a game that's about discussion.
Implying that me voting for you once a) I'd made sure you couldn't be accidentally lynched and b) you were scummy enough that I wouldn't actually mind you getting lynched is somehow me being scummy
The fact that this conversation had to happen.

Now, why do you suspect me again? Because I voted for you?

[JKMatthews]

Ok, so now that Alex is "taking this game a little more seriously" he's reading more town to me... that's just gut though. (for people who don't know, Alex and I know each other irl and play a lot of Resistance together... so there may be a lot of personality tells there that don't make sense). Alex is being more genuine and asking questions rather than dicking around... it could be that he's realised he's been caught and needs to clean up his act, but it reads as genuine to me.

Also,
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Jake
Your ISO is less than impressive...

[JKMatthews]

Jake, you've done almost nothing. Sure you're a replacement, but you've said "alright I've caught up now" and still done little to nothing but post fluff.

[JKMatthews]

Why take place in the present conversation if you haven't caught up with the past? I'd rather you not engaging in present arguments until you've caught up, otherwise you'll just create havoc.

[JKMatthews]

"I don't care what helps town, I'll play my way"?
My vote stays.

[JKMatthews]

Yeah, these last few pages were pretty terrible. I'm convinced Jake is town from them, however.
UNVOTE:
hohum's reaction is bizarre, but I'm finding it hard to tell whether I'm just disliking the general arrogance or if I'm actually finding it scummy. I think this is probably the best vote for now:
VOTE: Amrun

Also thinking Alex is town because the arguments leveled at him have seemed more interested in making him look bad than actually trying to determine his alignment.

How does the quality of the arguments against someone determine their alignment?

Alex - what do YOU think of the game?

[JKMatthews]

Because my scum read was based entirely off of his crappy ISO then subsequent "No fuck you, my ISO's good". Now he's actually generated content and seems to be doing genuine scumhunting.
hohum and Amrun are seeming much more vague... I think one of them has to die today.
Yeah, Falcon, get your shit together.

[JKMatthews]

OGML - interested to hear what you say here... when do you expect to have a computer?
And do you suddenly feel like Amrun's questions have more purpose?

[JKMatthews]

I keep looking at this and trying to figure out where you could honestly interpret what I said as being about the quality of the arguments, and not about the content. But I can't. You're just twisting it for your scum purposes.

Umm, what's the difference of the content of arguments and their quality?
My point was:
B seems scummy.
A makes a bad (in terms of content, quality, whatever you want to call it) argument against B.
B seems less likely to be scum because...?

That's what I didn't understand...

Not really, I just suddenly felt like you have a way better chance of flipping scum.

Fair enough. Care to explain why? Just that one point?

Amrun - what deflection?

[JKMatthews]

For reference, the comment being discussed is this:

Also thinking Alex is town because the arguments leveled at him have seemed more interested in making him look bad than actually trying to determine his alignment.

How is asking "why does bad arguments against Alex make Alex himself more townie?" misrepping anything? I was asking for clarification of logic that I thought was faulty... explain the misrep to me.

Amrun, OGML changes his vote from you to me without explanation. I say I'm both interested in hearing the reason why, and asking if his read on you has changed. Where's all this slimy deflection you speak of?

[JKMatthews]

You're now just arguing the definition of the word "bad". Read the quote. If the arguments about Alex are about making him look bad rather than trying to determine his alignment, they are bad arguments to use for scum hunting. This is petty nonsense.

And that.. just, wow. How can you possibly say that's exactly what I was doing? That's insane fearmongering. My theory is that Amrun's scum and I'm chosen. or Amrun's off her meds.

[JKMatthews]

Sure, but you're still just arguing the definition of the word "bad", which is very much in line with you not actually scumhunting.

No, you don't, but I'm saying that just because you've come up with some elaborate explanation that, sure, COULD BE true, it doesn't mean that it is. If I was lynched to be scum, you've found an explanation for what I was doing. However, starting from a "I wonder if JKM is scum or not?" point of view, it doesn't make sense to call me scum because of your little story. It's either self-fulfilling confirmation bias, or confirmation bias from an earlier suspicion of yours.

To reiterate, no I wasn't. I'm interested in OGML's argument as well as if he's still suspicious of you. If OGML didn't still suspect you just because something better became along, then he'd be fully diserving of any discredit that came from there. It's why I asked - the switch seemed sudden so I'm trying to grasp the motivation.

If you want to tell me why you suspect me, rather than the conclusions you've made after the fact, go for it. Otherwise forgive me for dismissing your arguments as nonsense.

[JKMatthews]

OGML started with "Also thinking Alex is town because..." How is that not talking about him? Even if it's not the absolute point of the statement, it's still part of the statement, and one that I thought was worth questioning. My reaction was to question his logic. You are being absolutely ridiculous here.

Ok, there we go! You finally said something that isn't just confirmation bias (sort of). You're still imbuing meaning in my words based on assumption, but at least it's base-level scum hunting.
And no, I don't want you to convince me to vote myself. I think you're scum, and I was pointing out flaws in your logic because there were flaws that it was in town's interest to point out.

Sudden in terms of new information that came to light between his votes on you and me. You seem very quick to defend his choice now that it means you're not the focus of inquiry...

[JKMatthews]

I think you're suffering the same thing you were accusing me of, though. I was only ever questioning the odd logic OGML presented. The fact that it was directed towards Alex is incidental (well, mostly. With Alex high on my scumread list I was probably more susceptible to noticing it).

Sure, only town can have strict confirmation bias, but this is back to the chainsaw defense thing again I think. I was pointing out that your arguments were fallacious, and not pieces of evidence. Scum can still present arguments that rely on their phony 'conclusions' to support the premise.
And yes, I did say you were showing evidence of scum hunting. If you don't have to constantly redundantly say "this is what I think", I don't see why you'd expect me to say "or something that emulates it" after statements of your protown actions.

That's exactly what I was doing with Alex, but why is that scummy? Alex seemed to up his game, so I'm as suspicious as I once was, but it doesn't mean he's clear from suspicion altogether...
Once again, never tried to discredit OGML or manipulate his vote. Just questioned him on the vote change.

[JKMatthews]

I'm not sure what I meant by that, my tired brain seemed to think there was one more level of things going on than there is...
I just mean I had a go at OGML for faulty logic relating to Alex, when it was actually the logic that I cared about, not Alex. Now you're implying I was slandering Alex, when actually I only cared about OGML's logic.
And yes, I am saying "even though the arguments are bad [by whatever definition], that doesn't make Alex town". It should be a total null on Alex, that's where the confusion is coming from...

P-Edit: Jake, if OGML was scum, why would he change his vote after I voted Amrun? Explain the scum motivation there? Surely it only makes sense if Amrun is also scum, and that scum team seems unlikely to me...

[JKMatthews]

Look, I never said the arguments against Alex were "bad." I never said anything about the quality at all. I was talking about what looked like the motivation behind the arguments being made. Town motivation would be to determine Alex's alignment. Scum motivation would be to simply make Alex look scummy. I perceived the latter. JK seems like a bright guy and I have a hard time believing he actually misunderstood this. He's doubling down on his misrep because he got called on it.

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. YOU are misunderstanding ME.
Goal of this game = finding scum. Arguments that don't do this = bad arguments. Therefore, if arguments against Alex are an attempt to paint a bad picture rather than determine his alignment they are, by definition, bad arguments. If this still doesn't make sense, I give up.

As for the chosen thing, the bloodthirsty way Amrun went after me based on what I thought was almost nothing didn't make sense in any other context.
However, it's becoming more apparent that perhaps I was genuinely misunderstood, rather than intentionally misrepped.
I'm happy to
UNVOTE:
VOTE: OGML
seeing as you still seem pretty happy to garner whatever meaning from my words you want rather than actually reading them.

Jake, what's your hohum argument...? And why aren't you voting hohum if your read is 'confirmed'?

[JKMatthews]

Hmmm yeah, just looked as hohum's ISO. It's absolutely woeful. Don't know how I didn't see it before...
UNVOTE:
VOTE: hohum

[JKMatthews]

Good, I love discussion...

[JKMatthews]

So do it! Care to explain the vote?

[JKMatthews]

Righto. What took you so long to vote after post 253?

[JKMatthews]

Probably should've been 252... first post you mentioned any suspicion of me. Then you questioned Jake, then you voted me.

[JKMatthews]

So, what were you hoping to get by asking me to explain my vote?

Is this a joke? The whole point of the game is to get information and analyse is, so yeah, that's what I was hoping to get...

[JKMatthews]

Mmmm, sweet, sweet opportunism!
You're moving your vote to me now based on stuff that happened in the first 4 pages? Geez...

[JKMatthews]

That's not what your post says, Alex...

[JKMatthews]

Your playstyle is still occuring here. Even in this post you don't actually try to refute what I'm saying, propose a counter argument or question me.

How can I refute your points? "JKM feels off to me". What do you want me to say? "No I don't"? Your vote sucks and you know it.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Alex
Probably won't lead anywhere unless Jake plus more get on board, but at least you'll know where I was looking when I flip...

[JKMatthews]

Ha, well I would be down for a lynch that kept me alive, and I think there's a good chance Amrun is scum, but I'd rather the Alex lynch...

[JKMatthews]

Eh, not high, but I've been pretty focused elsewhere for most of this game, so they're the highest I've got. 30-40%?

Too hard to put a decent idea together (It's after 2am here for a start), but there are lots of people it could be really so I wouldn't like to say...

I may be back with a better answer once I've slept, but no promises...

[JKMatthews]

If my chances of flipping scum are high, and Alex's chances of flipping scum are not high, why are you voting for Alex?

I don't think your chance of flipping scum is higher than Alex's...

[JKMatthews]

"Good chance" = ">25%", give that there's 2 scum out of the other 8 players. Doesn't mean a high chance...

Anyway I think that was hammer anyway, right?

[JKMatthews]

Depends on your definition. I should've clarified.

So, given that I'm town, what're we thinking? I've been a bit vague in following this game...
I feel like Alex is probably retroactively justifying his vote... why not bring all that stuff up much, much earlier...?

[JKMatthews]

FYI if you aren't scum. Someone can make a good case and still be wrong.

If Jk is indeed town your hammer was horrible

Whether or not I'm scum shouldn't change whether or not the hammer was horrible. If you think the hammer's horrible, even if I'm scum it's a horrible hammer that got lucky...

[JKMatthews]

No, I'm town.
Also, not Alex's defending himself against a deadman before the flip. He knows I'm town.

[JKMatthews]

How could that possibly be read as a scum claim? Presenting the hypothetical "even if I'm scum" implies the opposite is actually the case.

[JKMatthews]

Well I mean I'm actually here and happy to converse, so rather than just going "oh he's scum despite what he's saying", why not get some conversation going with a soon-to-be-confirmed townie?

...because you're scum and you're playing this card way too hard?

[JKMatthews]

As I said, I've been pretty vague in my commitment to posting this game...

How do you figure on the OGML confirm? I think Amrun is the most likely (unless you agree with the absolutely over the top assault on me earlier in the day)

[JKMatthews]

I'm actually inclined to agree with that...