Micro 528: Double Day Unlimited -- Game Over

[pablito]

My current intent is to read and post by Tuesday at latest. Busy with guests this weekend and have trip to airport tomorrow morning. Greatly appreciate that game has started with discussion on the game tactics due to the voting structure. Have only skimmed at the moment so cannot comment on anyone specific.

If anything I will look at players wagonning. Without having read in depth probably not suspecting luna for at least jumping out if the gate with bold tactic?

[pablito]

Apologies for the late entry. Running commentary as I catch up:

Luna and Firebringer are in the first page pretty much. I like that Luna takes a stance, very unsure about how to take Firebringer in this progression. Very lackadaisical. Lane copies Luna's vote choices - Right now Luna towniest, Fire scummiest.

kyndy coming in and wanting to vote everyone is not necessarily bad. Not sure scum would make a spectacle of having wanted to do so.

What I get from the first two pages is that Luna is reactive to most posts and allows the progression to flow - those that are directing the traffic more are kyndy and Firebringer. I see that there could've been some interesting discussions further on the set-up and strategies to take but kyndy bringing up history with Firebringer (a justified comment in reality) allowed the discussion to not come back to the set-up. While Firebringer takes the bait, he also actually brings it back. Town points there - not only once brought it back to the central discussion of setup, but twice. Right now Fire goes to towniest for me.

Lane talking about kyndy is something I was interested in as well, but again it's distracting from more set-up discussion from occurring, but nonetheless at that moment there wasn't much to really go further on. Vedith detracts even further by commenting on Luna.

FoS: Lane and Vedith

...
Yeah he really does seem to be nitpicking. I feel like it's too early in the game to be nitpicking.
However, if I recall, Vedith doesn't like RVS and always wants to get out of it as soon as possible so yeah. I don't think the nitpicking is anything more than him trying to get us out of RVS

Interesting comment as I thought we were clearly not much in RVS because Luna set us up with good discussion on the setup right away. While kyndy later retracts the statement - it is defending someone who was beginning to have suspicion. kyndy doing so seems pro-town.

In page 3, I'm sensing Lucky and Vedith voting Luna as justified. I don't agree, but I don't see it as being very opportunistic at the moment. Lucky is very right that we are needing to work around the town-hunting tactic which totally changes up the game - however the set-up almost

demands

it because we are allowed to vote multiple players. If scum can do multiple votes, we have to be careful. Where I agree with Lucky (while it wasn't explicit), is that voting everyone and then removing votes is putting everyone in a bad situation especially if Lane is absent and continues to do so:

FoS: Lane

.

If there's a winner as far as looking more town between vedith and Luma, I'm going to have to lean vedith. In the beginning I had luna, but then get must got bad. All in all I think it's a much of null bs. I get vediths point but don't agree with it, and pretty sure luna just doesn't understand it at all. Pretty pointless argument as are most 1v1s.

I'm going to have to reread again later cause I haven't picked up and obvtown reads or scum reads the first time through.

There doesn't need to be a winner - no one asked for it - and doing so creates a false dichotomy in the system which could be manipulative.

OGML picks up on this immediately and votes Lane. Thanks. OGML drunk posting is amazing. However, OGML drunk posting and forgetting to add me on his list is a sincere oversight which makes me lean toward OGML scum actually. OGML town wouldn't forget about me even if I hadn't posted much yet honestly...OGML would also make a drunk post like that and make complete sense overall. I'll choose not to read too far into it though.

The first two game posts are the towniest of all. You guys towned so hard this game will be used in future mafiascum academy classes on how to town. Kyndy is pretty much tone. But the whole page is a giant obvtownfest except lane sticking out like a sore scum thumb.

^This is truth. In any game where the voting mechanisms have changed, the proper town move is to discuss the setup, optimal gameplay, and set-up policies right away to close up any loopholes that scum may take advantage of. While Luna's choice to vote all didn't really close up all loopholes, it was an attempt to do something to force scum to react. It's better in these games to force scum to react to the set-up go "wtf happened, we're going to lose" and then mess up completely.

Luna brings up Vedith - which was within the full progression of thought. Lane jumps on and so does Fire. Luna is justified. Lane and Fire are not. Good thing Fire does not go there - but worth a

FoS: Firebringer

Yeah I have no idea what to think right now. All three of you (Luna, Lane, Vedith) have arguments for/against..

Again, why must there be a right or wrong answer in any of these arguments? Could easily be all Town vs town.

Right now my list:

Town
1. Luna
2. Lucky2u
3. Davsto
4. OGML
5. Firebringer
6. Vedith
7. kyndy
8. Lane
Scum

I've posted and while I have read the content, I was looking more at the progression and flow of the conversation and who veered right when the conversation should've veered left.

I really sense that Vedith leans town, but with appeals to emotion, I cannot feel good about the statements he's made. That's probably my annoyance more than anything though.

I ought to be more active from now on, just so you know.

[pablito]

Re-read, OGML did not pick up on Lane with the false dichotomy situation, it was for something else. I'm choosing to not vote until the VC is updated too many moves recently and too many close to L-2. If I were to vote, it would be kyndy at the moment - I think kyndy deserves some attention. I'd probably vote lane, but I think lane is already high in votes. That last post from kyndy is really scummy to me.

p-edit. The VC was updated

VOTE: kyndy101

HoS: Lane0186

[pablito]

Holy activity. Right now I have several things I need to answer to:

Fire is justified to ask me why I see lucky as town when I didn't even mention lucky at all in my post did i? The reason had to do with lucky pursuing the argument against Luna about town hunting. It felt very genuine to me. It came at a point when I felt Luna wasn't vulnerable but it deepened the conversation. I would not expect scum to have done so.

I also did not clearly state why I didn't vote lane. Ogml is attempting to defend me and attack fire based off my words.

@Ogml -so far how do you understand what role fire wants to try to bring to the town discussion? How does it differ from the role you are trying to place on yourself?

So fire half the reason for not voting lane was due to vc. I was running out door to work so I will own the laziness. But there was a vc after my pedit so it was a conscious choice to not go l-2 yet. This game seemed vote heavy already and despite my list I keep going back to an ogml-kyndy pair for some reason. Also to pressure kyndy a vote was needed. I did not feel a lane vote was necessary to add pressure. In the whole sequence I still feel it bizarre that ogml attacks fire on my behalf when fire is totally legit.

FoS: OGML

[pablito]

I turn around my head and someone's already lynched? While I don't think it was the worst choice, I had hesitation to vote particularly because several players were vote-heavy. I don't mind that the lynch happened - but I don't like the build up. I'd've liked to torn apart Lane a bit more first. Time for me to call them out. Also I have to wonder what the urgency was in needing to lynch lane now rather than later. Yes, we needed a flip, but we had plenty of time. I'm afraid, if we don't change up the philosophy of voting, we might get some quicklynches again.

First I'm going to go back since my last post:

Fire is just trying to pour cold water on every town read he sees, and this game is going to be won by proper townreads more than it is by proper scumreads.

Fair point.

I don't really understand what you're saying about roles in discussion or the role I'm placing on myself. I'm not placing any role on myself, I'm voting for scum and calling out townreads.

Ok. But you're also pushing heavily, and your votes weren't very restrained (pretty much only kyndy was actually?). I saw you as a co-opter of my arguments. I felt that you were very much trying to buddy up to me.

pablito: His big fancy walls of texts look neat, but I'm unsure how much I agree with the points, null with a slight townlean.

Walls of text! Walls of text!!! We need more Walls of TEXT!!!!

Okay, so I felt like Lucky in 175 was the big momentum-mover toward the Lane wagon. I think OGML and I didn't help either with anything. I see Lucky as very town though.

So Fire was the one who pointed out that I didn't vote Lane (bad in retrospect), but at the same time, Fire also points out Lane being at L-1 after Lucky's vote in 175. Also Fire asks Lane to try to defend self. So I'm not sure what to think, but Fire was very linked to Lane in the wagon.

IMO - this is the worst post progression leading up to the Lane lynch:

Somebody hammer this squirming fence sitting scum please

More lane votes please

Why the urgency, OGML? We had plenty of time - why did it have to be then? I could see OGML-scum being that brazen about pushing that hard openly.

Luna snuck in a vote on Lane I see. First time I suspect Luna of anything. Mostly after these posts, it's all noise and nothing moves away from the argument until Fire comes back.

This is interesting though:

Did someone say I can still vote after being lynched? That can't be right

Actually I'm not sure. I just re-read through the rules and I'm pretty sure you only have the ability to talk after being lynched?

@mod: Please clarify what the first lynched person can do after lynched and the "next day" starts

kyndy came back and chose to comment on this. Despite a vote being placed by me - this was the choice. Can you share more about that choice, kyndy?

I'm actually quite focused on getting a big enough town block to POE this game to a town victory right now in addition to my focus on lynching you. We get 4 lynches to 1 nightkill so if we can successfully form a five strong town block we win.

Not a bad idea - distracted from the Lane lynch. Makes me feel that OGML was confident enough in the lynch to set-up a bloc with himself for the win. Right now, I'd only have 1-2 in my trusted bloc. There were too many on Lane's lynch to make me feel good.

Also Fire's last minute reprieve is I don't know. I appreciate it and wish it could've worked, but I guess it could've been all for show - especially if Fire knew Lane was town and was hoping I might even vote Lane later on when I get back. To be honest, I wouldn't have right away. I stated before why I didn't vote Lane despite my heavy suspicion. After a few more days, I might've though.

Ok - D1 lynch 2. So Fire - why open up with so many votes? I get you have suspicion - but you also saw the consequences of so many votes out there. So what do these votes mean to you? Please share what you hope each of these votes to achieve and what each one symbolizes for you? You saw how I made my vote on kyndy in D1P1 symbolize something specific as compared to my Lane non-vote. So what says you about yours?

Look see 242
Looks like Kyndy doesn't really actually care about lane's alignment and was policy.

Vote: Kyndy

Fire can be town for now.
I want more thoughts from pablito, he's currently my strongest townread and i want to work with him.
Also sorry lane, I misread your intentions, i'll not let your death be in vain.

I'd like to work with you more, but full honesty, you're no longer my strongest townread. Your association with the Lane lynch seems very tacked on. I'd like to hear more from you about the urgency on the Lane lynch before I go further in this potential dalliance.

Actually I agree with the push for vedith at this point

Vote: Vedith

I still think kyndy is town.

OGML - Why are you so fickle on Vedith. Your iso reads interesting about Vedith. Also if kyndy was an alcoholic beverage - who would be the bartender mixing that drink?

@Luna - Thoughts about Fire voting for 3 people already?

[pablito]

So let's get down to business:
The whole exchange in Page 9 of lane vs OGML doesn't look like OGML is trying for a mislynch, but actually trying to read lane, to which he ends with "more lane votes pls" after making a decission.
pablito went down because of something im going to point out next.
Now let's look at Dave, the majority of Dave's ISO is with stuff unrelated to the actual game/scumhunting, let's look at the posts that are actually related to the game:
98 piggybacking on Lucky's read.
100 apparently he doesn't seem my playstyle as scummy, yet im null scum for it.
169 Do i really need to point out what's wrong with this reads list?
Let's look at the reasoning for his 3 scumreads:

Vedith: Oh Vedith, ugh. Like, the points are a balance between intentional misrepping or just a misunderstanding, so I feel that attempting to read them would result in my failure. Reading as null because I can't see him as having said anything beyond that discussion, so I can't really read. Gonna say a scumlean, until I see some more from him.

"He's null but i can't read him so i'll say scum"

lane: Dislike the parroting of the "vote everyone", a lot of nullreading. Scumlean.

"Dislikes parroting on my plan, too many nullreading" what?.

Firebringer: Really not a fan, playing quite oddly, at least a couple of his posts sound like he's trying too hard to sound Town. Scumlean.

I didn't get this impression, looks fake.

Davsto has done literally nothing this game, yet pablito:

Town
1. Luna
2. Lucky2u

3. Davsto

4. OGML
5. Firebringer
6. Vedith
7. kyndy
8. Lane
Scum

I don't get it.

Thanks for half-asking.

Here's the reason for my stance on Davsto:

...
As for the Vedith/Luna debate, I honestly could barely understand a word, I'm currently unsure as to whether it's TvT or SvS or TvS or whatever. It needs more time to unfold.

I appreciated that Davsto didn't want to fall down the same pathway that Lane had. While I acknowledge that Davsto could easily be trying to "opening all paths" as scum, at that point, PoE lead me to feel better about Dav at that point more than OGML. This view has since gone down since Lane's flip. Dav parked a vote that contributed to a town lynch. Want to hear more though before I fully assess.

I await OGML's and kyndy's answers about their urgency of their votes.

@Luna. We had more than a week for deadline still on the clock, right? There is nothing in the world that could convince me that we couldn't wait at least two days minimum before a hammer. Tell me that the conversation on Lane was stagnating before you tell me that it wasn't rushed.

@p-edit. Okay, yes you're right - we have a deadline for two lynches. I still think that two days wait could've been helpful. We have lost information on what I would've said or Davsto would've said while Lane at L-1 that is now lost. When someone is at L-1, it's not always about getting information from the person at L-1 during that moment - it's also about seeing how the rest of the bunch react to L-1. The urgency from L-1 to hammer is robbing information gaining. Both kyndy and OGML pushed for urgency in the hammering vote. Nonetheless, I now see why the hammer was pushed quicker than what I would've liked. Neither one mentioned that as a reason though, right?

[pablito]

I'm still not sure why the lynch happening earlier than usual is a problem, if they wanted to say something they should've just said it, at least in the case of Lane, since he was around at the time.
And as for Davsto, it's not like he can't talk.

lane was around, lane was talking and failed to defend properly. Thus, it was the correct lynch to pursue at that time and very, very likely the best lynch to pursue during D1P1 because it is giving us great information. However, sometimes flustered town can take a day off, recompose and say something better. No one aside Fire mentioned that as a possibility. I also await kyndy to give more information about the hammering vote.

Nonetheless, Fire is the one I also want to vote the most for backing off the vote - as well as voting 3 people to start off the day. My logic confounds me.

Re-read maybe coming in a few minutes - depends if I get ready quickly enough for work.

[pablito]

#250 -
#279 - Really? You didn't even try and push another wagon and you say this? Your only vote was an RVS, right?
#280 - Reasons?
#284 - What I don't like about this is that most Mondays I post a lot less and considering the amount of games we have had together I expect you may have noticed this, or even noticed my less activity on the site as a whole. Using this as a reason for me being scum is what makes me scum tell on you.

#135 /#152/#176 - No vote on him at all day 1.

#282/#315 - So did you think of me as scum in the first post?

VOTE: FireBringer
VOTE: Luna Fox
You both see each other as town too, right?

You all know that I think Luna is scum anyway.

Reposting with hotlinks to post numbers for myself and anyone else who doesn't feel like hunting to figure out what vedith is getting at.

I'm still not getting that warm town feeling I was hoping to get from pablito. Like, nothing is specifically standing out as scummy right now, but nothing is really townie either. And I remember from recent experience how convincing pabs is as a wallposting scum.

Walls of text. Walls of text dammit.

@OGML - Is there something specific you'd like me to do? I get that you want to mention me right now about not having a warm fuzzy feeling and that's fine because I'm taking a newer more methodical approach to my scum-hunting this time - but I'm also curious what you want me to do with your statement now. I'm just curious because you were talking about Vedith in that post. Makes me wonder if you are linking us in your mind somehow. Because once you answer that, there's some stuff I'd like you to do for me.

I actually like Vedith's points on Firebringer here. They are the similar reasons to what I think of Fire actually. That being said, it doesn't necessarily gain townpoints from me on Vedith, but I admit I've not really looked much at Vedith this entire time either. That means time for a Vedith iso:

It bores me to read Vedith's iso. But it's pretty clear that Vedith hasn't really looked at everyone and continues to have a limited focus. That strikes me as scummy. So in D1P2 - really all I see is the post where Vedith votes FB and Luna. The context of that post is that many people have suspected him early in the day, the focus was on kyndy and then Vedith has ignored the previous questions directed at him. Lucky did a catch-up post which actually did vote Vedith.

Also in D1P1 - Vedith's main role was to maintain the conversation on Luna and frustratingly bring it back to Luna and Vedith.

In terms of the non-verbal communication of movement from the main arguments - it seems that if Vedith is a conversation line and we analyze Vedith's movements toward himself and/or away from others all I see is Vedith defending self, catching up, and/or bringing the conversation back to or deepening on the Vedith/Luna line. As for non-verbal communication of timeliness - I think his posting is too erratic in pattern to insinuate anything. As for non-verbal communication in tone - Vedith is ripe with explicit, easily-interpreted statements. Vedith appears to enjoy ad hominem attacks and attributes adjectives on other players.

What I would like to see with Vedith is more reflection on other players. The movement piece, in my opinion therefore, does

not

appear manipulative or scummy but it seems very in tune with Vedith's attention flow. The content, however, is very lacking. While FB does admit though that Vedith meta may be "lynch bait".

@Firebringer - In terms of Vedith-scum focal points from the past - how do you experience this? Do you feel that Vedith tends to tunnel and pummel?

@kyndy - Vedith mentions you in:

Post #51 is not scum hunting... It's you just asking if someone is any of the only options to go with. It's like me going to you - Do you think that Bob is Town, Null or Scum? It's not scum hunting it's trying to look like you are.
You didn't provide any proof, and it's funny that you see my comments as misrepresentations when even Kyndy knew exactly what I was saying. You also ignored the comment in #79 "You misinterpreted him as restating that you can't scumhunt, however he was simply pointing out that you shouldn't have felt confident enough with your scumhunting skills to know when other people are / are not scumhunting."

Therefore, kyndy, your thoughts of Vedith's representation of you?

At this time my assessment of Vedith, then, falls as "misguided town with lack of effort".

Now to read others' D1P2 assessment of Vedith:
Fire - "too passive"
OGML - voted Vedith D1P1
Luna - "enough pressure already"
Lucky - no justification but is remnant from D1P1?
Davsto - Vedith is limiting self in posting. "PBP of D1P1"
kyndy - has not commented on Vedith?
pablito - only just commented on Vedith

As such - there are currently 5 players that have commented on a willingness to lynch Vedith D1P2. Thanks OGML for unvoting - we need further discussion - especially since it seems the Vedith wagon is not rooted in the Lane lynch but rather D1P1. I want to see more analysis of the Lane lynch to be honest - I worry that this Vedith wagon (while either scum driven on town or town driven on scum) is still distracting from the rich information mine of the Lane lynch. This movement toward Vedith wagon makes me think that if Vedith is town - Davsto and Lucky were the ones to most move it toward Vedith. OGML and Luna seem to be the ones most likely to not necessarily keep focus on Vedith. If I feel that Vedith is town, I'd be most likely to trust OGML and Luna because of their consistent actions on movement toward/away from Vedith. If Vedith is scum, I'd see Davsto as being townier or bussier with OGML being either uber-bussy or, more likely, uber-town.

I haven't looked at the justification on D1P1 on Vedith - but if the wagon continues to grow further, I promise I will, because it seems that there's a lot of info there on Lucky's and Davsto's thoughts on it all.

Any comments on this analysis - did I view Vedith wrong at all?

Also - I continue to

FoS: Firebringer

[pablito]

I kind of hate how firebringer didn't actually seem to put a lot of effort into derailing the lane wagon, and completely lampshaded the fact that he was so obviously grabbing townie brownies for calling his townflip in advance. I don't know if I've ever gotten such townread > scumread > townread > scumread whiplash from anybody before.

I've seen it before.

VOTE: Firebringer

I don't believe a single thing about the intent in Fire wanting to derail the wagon. I applaud the thought, but the process was not the best and the timeliness didn't give much of a chance. I am not voting FB on this premise though. I do not think that derailing the Lane wagon should

not

win any town points because there was already intent to hammer from kyndy plus a HoS from me. FB also even asked why I wasn't voting Lane. There were already more than enough players that were jumping on Lane.

@FB - Tell me again what your intention was on telling me that I was not voting Lane. What were your thoughts about Lane or Me in that comment?

The big reason why I'm voting FB is because FB mentioned the possibility of the Lane lynch being scum-driven but has done little to no analysis or movement back to the lynch and that progress. Yes, FB voted a few on the wagon, but it seemed to be a very, very superficial action to potentially show the follow-up from FB's action to "derail" the wagon. The follow-up does not feel consistent or genuine to that original intent of derailment. Instead FB focused more on Vedith for being Vedith.

Now its not only my fault for lane getting lynched, but I am also scum for not trying hard enough to stop you guys?

Screw you dude.
Own up to your own mistake.

I think that's a simplification of the argument. My view is that it's not about FB in a single five minute span (for which if OGML is only focusing on that, then the context of a very rushed five minute moment should be added) - but it's more about FB in the days afterward in which FB still hasn't gone back to the lynch analysis and hasn't answered my question about the symbolism of the three votes in D1P2 - or at least explained anything further.

The only positive I see from FB right now is that in the iso, I see that FB mentioned opportunism on kyndy's wagon - but again, no follow-through.

[pablito]

Pablito if you are town, get the hell out of this game right now.

You are an idiot, and are basically ruining this game for the town.
You are analysis is shit on me. And you are going for a 2nd mislynch.

I've claimed intent to vote you in previous posts. You have not responded to my requests. This should come as no surprise. You have not yet been lynched.

You say you can't counter, but I have asked you questions before. Please continue onward.

That being said...

@OGML - I don't think you've answered my question about the urgency of the Lane lynch. Also you voted FB after I did. You built it up to it, and that's fair game. You've also commented on me before - so do you have any new things to comment about on me?

[pablito]

I am now going anti town mode.
Don't expect me to be very helpful.

Lynch me if yo uwant.

Playing against your win condition is listed in the boilerplate game rules. Please consider reading. I am not averse to unvoting you FB. My vote was intended to pressure you. It has been noted as having pressured you.

To help you, let me distract from your focus and go back to the fact that kyndy is ignored. Also I'm acknowledging that before FB came up, the discussion was on Vedith. For OGML to move from Vedith to FB makes me feel slightly better about OGML.

@OGML - Please share more on your thoughts on Lucky. In D1P1 you mentioned Lucky in your town forever and then the next mention was about Lucky being scum partner (which you also attributed to Vedith and/or Davsto). The fact that you mention this as a reason makes me feel a bit better about you being consistent - unsure if it gives you townpoints though.

[pablito]

Edited the url tag...

I am now going anti town mode.
Don't expect me to be very helpful.

Lynch me if yo uwant.

Playing against your win condition is listed in the boilerplate game rules. Please consider reading. I am not averse to unvoting you FB. My vote was intended to pressure you. It has been noted as having pressured you.

To help you, let me distract from your focus and go back to the fact that kyndy is ignored. Also I'm acknowledging that before FB came up, the discussion was on Vedith. For OGML to move from Vedith to FB makes me feel slightly better about OGML.

@OGML - Please share more on your thoughts on Lucky. In D1P1 you mentioned Lucky in your town forever and then the next mention was about Lucky being scum partner (which you also attributed to Vedith and/or Davsto). The fact that you mention this as a reason makes me feel a bit better about you being consistent - unsure if it gives you townpoints though.

[pablito]

Yeah I have no idea what to think right now. All three of you (Luna, Lane, Vedith) have arguments for/against..

Again, why must there be a right or wrong answer in any of these arguments? Could easily be all Town vs town.

This is interesting though:

Did someone say I can still vote after being lynched? That can't be right

Actually I'm not sure. I just re-read through the rules and I'm pretty sure you only have the ability to talk after being lynched?

@mod: Please clarify what the first lynched person can do after lynched and the "next day" starts

kyndy came back and chose to comment on this. Despite a vote being placed by me - this was the choice. Can you share more about that choice, kyndy?

I await OGML's and kyndy's answers about their urgency of their votes.

I'm still not sure why the lynch happening earlier than usual is a problem, if they wanted to say something they should've just said it, at least in the case of Lane, since he was around at the time.
And as for Davsto, it's not like he can't talk.

lane was around, lane was talking and failed to defend properly. Thus, it was the correct lynch to pursue at that time and very, very likely the best lynch to pursue during D1P1 because it is giving us great information. However, sometimes flustered town can take a day off, recompose and say something better. No one aside Fire mentioned that as a possibility. I also await kyndy to give more information about the hammering vote.

Nonetheless, Fire is the one I also want to vote the most for backing off the vote - as well as voting 3 people to start off the day. My logic confounds me.

Re-read maybe coming in a few minutes - depends if I get ready quickly enough for work.

@kyndy - Vedith mentions you in:

Post #51 is not scum hunting... It's you just asking if someone is any of the only options to go with. It's like me going to you - Do you think that Bob is Town, Null or Scum? It's not scum hunting it's trying to look like you are.
You didn't provide any proof, and it's funny that you see my comments as misrepresentations when even Kyndy knew exactly what I was saying. You also ignored the comment in #79 "You misinterpreted him as restating that you can't scumhunt, however he was simply pointing out that you shouldn't have felt confident enough with your scumhunting skills to know when other people are / are not scumhunting."

Therefore, kyndy, your thoughts of Vedith's representation of you?

[pablito]

Also I think I read a question a couple pages back addressed to me but I can't recall so if whoever asked that question would please repost it?

[pablito]

Sala is clearly town. Sala please read.

Vedith, please read the game, yes. I'd like to hear more from you.

VOTE: OGML because the reasons for urgency of the lane vote seem to parrot Luna's response. I feel town-OGML might've been more like - I wanted to lynch lane, so I pushed for it fast.

[pablito]

I'm not completely certain that FB is the right lynch target today. I think we should look at OGML. I've had enough doubt on OGML through all of today.

Would either Sala or Not_Mafia like to try to look at the progression of the lane lynch? We need fresh eyes on that sequence and we've all ignored the lane lynch so much so far.

@Sala is there anything specific you'd like from me?

[pablito]

No, I was being genuine, Vedith. I am looking forward to your analysis. I didn't think you were scum when you were being wagonned. Right now, you're more middling on my list for no other reason but PoE.

Hrm. that didn't elicit the reaction I was expecting from FB. UNVOTE: Firebringer. I think there's enough info on FB that I'm cool with unvoting right now and pressuring some others when I get the chance.

My thought about lane's lynch is that we've always needed the analysis. That is consistent with me. My vote on FB was because I didn't see FB do any follow-up on the lane lynch - thereby seeing FB as "inconsistent". However, FB is pretty emotionally consistent in other areas. I got frustrated and didn't come back to do any lane lynch analysis. I'd rather see someone else's analysis first though before I post my own.

[pablito]

UNVOTE: OGML

We don't need L-1 yet.

I really thought OGML and FB were a scum pair and thus is the reason I'm confused about their interaction right now. I thought that FB's response about the vote was mainly due to feeling angry about OGML voting him and was redirecting anger toward me. On re-read, the main reason I felt FB was pressuring me more, was because I was actually talking. And when I voted OGML, I thought FB was going to blame me for trying to shift blame and was going to try to push back on me for voting OGML. In absence of that reaction, I unvoted.

However, OGML OMGUSes which feels ungenuine to me. I feel like OGML either tries to buddy up to me or discount my words. Knowing what OGML thinks of me, that's why I keep questioning him. That in addition to the unfettered pressuring to lynch lane - I could feel good with an OGML lynch - especially if I feel that Sala, Vedith and FB are town. Either way, we still need to look back on the lane lynch people.

I could see an OGML-kyndy/notmafia pair still.

I will echo FB's thoughts about my being "opportunistic". Aside from FB, no one really was pushing much against OGML at that moment.

[pablito]

Opportunistic in that I was afk and you managed to whip up a L-1 wagon in my absence

You blaming me and not mentioning lucky or not_mafia makes me think that you are scum trying to limit any last minute connections to you.

VOTE: OGML

Lucky hasn't had much of a wagon starting, so it'd not give us much information to lynch Lucky. I'd rather lynch someone I'm very certain is scum. I'm very certain OGML is scum. Then again, with the unlimited votes - lynches aren't that hard to make.

[pablito]

wtg guys. quick lynch with no defense. Lucky's my #2 town read. Don't like this choice at all. I still see OGML-scum having pushed both lynches.

[pablito]

Ok so Lane lynch. I'm tired and want to go to sleep but this needs to happen.

Lucky put the first vote a long time ago due to the vote all unvote later plan (which was initiated by luna and followed by not_mafia later).

OGML votes lane in 114. First significant push on lane again due to beliefs that lane-lucky were a pair. combined with a vedith vote. This rules out the OGML-Vedith pairing I think. OGML defends Luna, kyndy and FB in that post as being towniest of them all (even though OGML waffles on FB pretty much in a previous sequence as well as other sequences in the future). If OGML is scum, then context is that the lane lynch was to distract possibly from either Luna/Sala or Dav who were picking up votes. Except that Davsto had two quick unvotes - so OGML's push was to push lane not to distract from any lynch. Point taken. OGML picked up on post #112 as being scummy:

If there's a winner as far as looking more town between vedith and Luma, I'm going to have to lean vedith. In the beginning I had luna, but then get must got bad. All in all I think it's a much of null bs. I get vediths point but don't agree with it, and pretty sure luna just doesn't understand it at all. Pretty pointless argument as are most 1v1s.

I'm going to have to reread again later cause I haven't picked up and obvtown reads or scum reads the first time through.

Then there's a drunkposting discussion which created a second-superfluous thread in the conversation until lane brings a vote on Vedith and FB echoes desire to vote Vedith.

Then I come in and do a catch-up post of some sort which brings momentum directly back to Lane except that I did not vote Lane. Instead I voted kyndy.

FB and OGML talk about things that are not Lane...hrm. Either that could be scum who wanted to move it back to Vedith, or they're town not interested in following the path toward lane yet...Rather there's discussion about Lucky being town or not (mainly due to my list where I put lucky so high up) and then also the conversation from FB asking why I didn't vote lane but suspected him. This leads to OGML voting FB. OGML-FB argue or something and OGML says:

I'm pretty sure we can win this thing day one by lynching lane and firebringer

Looking through, it's a bit late to go through ISOing people but I said I'd give some scumreads so I am gonna do that, because I wanna stick to my promises. Gonna go through each player in alphabetical order and give a very brief, minor read on them (like we're not very far in but might as well), and vote on all of those I scumread at the end (you're welcome Nobody)

Firebringer: Really not a fan, playing quite oddly, at least a couple of his posts sound like he's trying too hard to sound Town. Scumlean.
kyndy101: Makes good points, although not sure if I agree with them. Gonna say null.
lane: Dislike the parroting of the "vote everyone", a lot of nullreading. Scumlean.
Lucky2u: Makes very good points about Luna's posts. Slight townlean.
Luna: Her idea at the start seems to have fair logic in her mind, and I can see why she'd think that, and she also stuck to her guns and kept with it despite scrutiny (while lane unvoted everyone quickly). Townlean.
OhGodMyLife: Again, making nice points, also shows very little worry about what other people read him as, which scum rarely do. Another townlean.
pablito: His big fancy walls of texts look neat, but I'm unsure how much I agree with the points, null with a slight townlean.
Vedith: Oh Vedith, ugh. Like, the points are a balance between intentional misrepping or just a misunderstanding, so I feel that attempting to read them would result in my failure. Reading as null because I can't see him as having said anything beyond that discussion, so I can't really read. Gonna say a scumlean, until I see some more from him.

VOTE: Firebringer
VOTE: lane0186
VOTE: Vedith

So Davsto brings the argument back to lane...but also two other people that are being openly suspected. Davsto does so in a nice convenient way as well. This post needs to be perused. This is the type of post that scum could make to justify a vote to create a wagon. In fact, this was a post to create any wagon really - as those three were mostly suspected.

I can vote Davsto now. He's not at L-1 yet right?
VOTE: Davsto

Lucky then re-votes lane in the next vote. Previously had unvoted all, but brought this wago back. Lucky brought the most direct momentum to the wagon.

Somebody hammer this squirming fence sitting scum please

OGML only puts urgency toward the wagon after lane has some weird defense posts. My previous read on OGML is retracted.

UNVOTE: OGML

I still think he may be scum based on his reactions with me - but in reality, I don't see OGML as the biggest contributor to the lane-lynch. In fact, he was very open about it, which is either bold scum, or very likely town that wanted the lynch. I could see OGML doing that. But I think Davsto and Lucky's votes are both more scummy at the moment for parking and just letting it happen by letting others talk about Lane more.

This post needs to be interpreted by Lucky ASAP. Without a good response, I won't mind hammering.

I don't understand, i thought you said OGML is scum?
I find it weird that you said that they were the scum pushing your wagon and then you are talking to them as if they are wrong town.
Make up your mind, because i feel it's contradictory.

For someone who hates misrepresentation this is weird.

I just said I'm talking them to learn his mindset and to see if he's willing to admit fault. You're the one who thinks I'm talking to him as town. I'm not talking to him as town at all. I can't help if I don't talk to my scum reads the way you talk to your scum reads. My mind is made up. You're the one trying to make it seem like it's not

If your mind is made up and he is scum, why you trying to convince him? Convince us to lynch him. If you do convince him to unvote you, what then? He lives? You switch to town read?

Then there's more lane tripping over feet and then kyndy says intent to hammer with a weird post about lynching lane due to wishy-washy and tunneling rather than pure scumminess.

In the entire sequence, Lucky looks like the one that pushed Lane's lynch the most I think. Davsto parked a vote and kyndy hammered. I am starting to like seeing any one of these be lynched today with my preference on Davsto. I need to hear a lot more from Lucky - my early early game read about his pushes on Luna about town-hunting may have cloaked my perception of him throughout the rest of the day. In a quick iso of Lucky, I don't see anything damning to keep him in the town column and it's been more PoE. I feel very confident about FB being more town now. OGML I waffle, but I am cool with OGML not being the target. Davsto just seems to be on every single wagon it seems.

I won't mind Not_Mafia being lynched, but I do think that dav/lucky seem to be a good choice for today based on lane's lynch - especially since both seem to be devoid of original content for the most part.

[pablito]

Lucky, you were voting lane at that moment. I want to know more about your intention in that post. I agree you should have pressured superscummy lane but almost looks like you were asking lane to open up a new wagon instead and/or possibly get lane to trip up more ti get himself lynched. If you weren't voting lane at that moment that looks like a much better post. If you are scum I can see scum intent more than town intent

[pablito]

Firebringer is 100% confirmed town. Let's try to end this game within two lynches.

I think scum was too afraid of Sala's posts.

[pablito]

If we assume that scum did not bus on Davsto's lynch, and I don't see why they would... then we have several safe people and the lynch should be on OGML and Not_Mafia today.

Here's the argument why scum did not bus Davsto's lynch

1) There was no build up to Davsto's lynch so he was mainly hidden. A scum bus scum lynch would've more likely been a heavy target throughout the day like OGML, pablito, Lucky, Vedith, FB or even kyndy/not_mafia.
2) It was extremely quick considering the circumstances, especially when Lucky was lingering at L-2 and L-1 for such a long time. The fact that Lucky was not lynched despite being at L-1 clears some people, and half-clears others.

Lucky was at L-1 when three players had voted: pablito, Lucky, and FB. FB hammered scum, which should pretty much 100% clear FB. The clincher is that Dav also brought FB to L-1, which 100% clears FB. Lucky I assuming would not have bussed Davsto because I think Davsto could have survived with Lucky dying still. And I had the opportunity to take out Lucky but did not - but that in no way clears me.

Looking at Dav's iso, it's clear he blanket-voted several times to hide connections, but the one lynch that was almost taken to completion by Dav was Vedith's. I feel confident now that Vedith is town, but that's also because of Vedith's opening post today as well. I encourage many to look at Dav's iso really if you haven't already.

VOTE: OGML

I think we should honor OGML's request.

[pablito]

@OGML - looking back at the Davsto lynch, what do you think were the biggest factors in getting Davsto lynched?

Furthermore, do you feel that I'm currently misguided? If so, please explain so that I can better scumhunt. OGML, we haven't heard much about your changes in any thought processes since FB's wagon died out. Please share with us chronologically what has happened in your thought analysis since then. If you had been around, what do you think might have happened?

I'm saying pablito is putting forward a lynch plan that has zero scum in it today by following the flawed "scum would not have bussed" theory.

OGML - do you feel that scum is unlikely to have bussed? If so, please explain the context of the Davsto wagon that demonstrates the opposite.


I feel OGML is continuing to tunnel - which I believe is scummy. But I'm not entirely convinced means he's scum. But OGML's reads have not evolved much, especially considering the lynch. So please share more, OGML. I also want to hear more about your view on FB and Vedith. All I see is OGML talking about "Marsha, Marsha, Marsha"

[pablito]

your voting everyone and removing votes after they prove they are town seems like reverse (I'm drawing a blank on the term here... AtE? the one where you reward other players for agreeing with you/town reading you). Worst case scenario it's greedy and anti-town if you are town. Day 1, this is good enough for a vote from me

I don't like that he actively scumread this play to vote. Was it a questionable strategy? Yes. Would scum do it? Probably not, it is the definition of attention grabbing.

Well that's an interesting VC

wait why am I at L-3 srsly guys

VOTE: Lucky2u cuz you modded that one game that two other players here were in.

UNVOTE: davsto
UNVOTE: vedith

serious votes time, leaving firebringer as he is scum and adding

VOTE: luna

after reading this again I see that lane agreed with the plan.... which is even scummier than luna coming up with it....

VOTE: lane

UNVOTE: firebringer

I don't think Lucky explained this unvote. It feels like the first one was bussing with no explanation, then sneakily removing it with no explanation.

after reading this again I see that lane agreed with the plan.... which is even scummier than luna coming up with it....

VOTE: lane

UNVOTE: firebringer

1) I'm not good at scumhunting, im better off townhunting.

this is an excuse for failure later.

What do you mean.

we mislynch player x, you were behind the wagon for player x, we question you about it. you say "Well I told you I wasn't a good scum hunter!"

Apparently is psychic enough to know that's what Luna is gonna do before she actually does it.

I don't see lucky2u as town. Look over his 7 posts they are completely all over the place and has no direction.
He takes his first vote serious I think then invites several players then says I am scum then later invites me and places it somewhere else, it's all over the place with him in short span.

It's not reading town to me, Null at best.

You are right fire, have a cookie.

I am very suspicious of being called town for my pursuit of Luna. If I was scum and a town player did what she did, I'd be all over her like a fat kid on a cake. It's too easy to mislynch and take little heat for. After looking at the interactions again, she is probably just mislead town...

Backpedaling and stuff. Not liking this.

Careful fire... you'll get the ol' "fire only knew he was town cause for us scum" bit

Yes. Yes he will.

Hrm, I feel like this is sorta premeditating today, in a way I dislike.

Woohoo! I finally finished reading back up! I'm still OK lynching the Vedith slot and now I am OK with OhGodMyLife slot too

VOTE: OhGodMyLife

I'm just going to stick this here, don't mind me.

The first is Lucky's only mention of OGML in his ISO. The second is a vote on him with no reasons. Me no likey.

...Anyway, to answer your question, Sala...

Dav what do you think about Lucky?

...I'm thinking scum enough to warrant a vote.
VOTE: Lucky2u

Context of this above post:

pablito had pushed OGML lynch, but then unvotes OGML because it was at L-1 (not because pablito necessarily suspected ogml any more or less)

Davsto comes in and pushes a Lucky lynch in this above post.

Not_Mafia and OGML vote Lucky.

Wait did we? Its whatever but thats what I get for phone posting.

With my poor counting skills, I mentioned the possibility that Lucky was already lynched, that was OGML's response. Super town.

Vedith was then prodded and

did not

vote Lucky. Instead votes dav. Strong town points for Vedith.

Pablito

did not

vote Lucky. Pablito votes dav.

Lucky comes in and votes everyone voting him.

FB hammers.

If we assume four people came in and voted and had the opportunity to lynch Lucky, but instead placed votes that helped lynch Davsto, then there are clear reasons to not lynch Vedith, FB, Lucky or pablito. But the strongest evidence is that Vedith, FB and Lucky are certainly town and should be kept alive. At this point, having 3 nearly confirmed town is enough to win the game. Those 3 do not include me. That is enough to win the game if we assume that "scum bussing" was unlikely.

Sorry vedith for not recognizing earlier that you avoided hammering Lucky.

If we see the above quoted post as Davsto's distractionary tactic - it is quite possible it was to move a wagon quick enough to move away from the impending OGML lynch. I feel that this is heavy evidence of Davsto trying to save his partner, and hence why I suspect OGML more than not_mafia at themoment.

[pablito]

I've been prodded. I apologize for OGML's lynch. I honestly thought he was final scum based on his interactions with me, as well as Davsto's moves. I still believe in the town bloc of 3 (Vedith, FB, and Lucky) and if I remember correctly, I was the first to name the three - although Vedith was clear in voting only ogml and notmafia. I will defend myself, but I'll leave it to the town bloc to guide the lynch. I think we ought to hold off on all votes for now - we have PLENTY of time to discuss this and make the correct move. I won't vote at all unless it's close to deadline, and I'm fairly certain there's only one person I'd put my vote on.

What I can say about myself...and I will post more when I get time later today...is that I feel that while I have pushed several lynches, I've also been one to jump off and halt some. In D1P2, I believe that Davsto would not have been lynched if several distractionary wagons had not stopped. There were several moments when Vedith, FB, and OGML had high momentum, but I did try to look at everything and unvote if necessary. It is important to note that Davsto's lynch, in my opinion, was a very compromise lynch that occurred after several wagons had gone high in momentum but then it was scaled back. To get to Davsto's lynch means that town players needed to unvote and derail those wagons. I don't claim full responsibility for any, but my actions, in that context, I believe, look pro-town.

I also feel that my reads have been fairly transparent and they have evolved, especially on FB. I feel I made a mistake in pursuing FB early in D1P2, but I read some things from OGML that helped bring that forward. This is a big reason why I also suspected OGML.

Finally, I've had many town reads this game and I've stuck to them. I am narrowing the field of suspects in that way. I truly believe the 3 people I've seen as town, really are town - and I think their wagons failing yesterday given even more credence to those reads of mine. Narrowing the field that tight is a pro-town move, in my opinion. Scum would not narrow down the field of suspects to ensure failure in a LyLo situation.

[pablito]

Votecount 1.22

L-1 Lucky2u - 4 - Salamence20, Davsto, Not_Mafia, OhGodMyLife

Davsto - 3 - Salamence20, Vedith, pablito
pablito - 3 - Firebringer, OhGodMyLife, Vedith

Firebringer - 2 - OhGodMyLife, Davsto
Not_Mafia - 2 - Davsto, Vedith
OhGodMyLife - 2 - Firebringer, Lucky2u
Vedith - 2 - Lucky2u, Davsto

Not Voting: ...

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline: (expired on 2015-09-26 22:32:35)

This was the last vote count before the lynch. I just want to look at the vote count analysis. First off, pablito was only voting 1 person at the end, which is on Davsto.

At that point, I wanted Davsto lynched more than competing wagons - including the wagons that I personally pushed, such as OGML and FB. I was willing to hammer Lucky, but I had not, because I felt more comfortable lynching Davsto instead. Note that Pablito, before voting Davsto, had unvoted OGML and FB. Therefore, prior to the last minute rush in the end - the wagons looked like: Lucky @ 4, OGML @ 3, FB, NM, pab, vedith @ 2, Dav @ 1 (at that point Vedith had not yet voted Dav). There were several competing wagons at that time - several wagons were out there that were easier than Davsto. There were a million things that needed to happen to get Davsto up there as a lynch yesterday. Part of it was slowing down the OGML and FB wagons that I pushed. It was also important that the Vedith wagons and Lucky wagons did not come to completion. Also taking a stand back was very important and looking at all the wagons going on in relation to the lane lynch vote analysis. I still think that pablito's votes should clear pablito as town. I also went back to the lane-lynch analysis to get the most accurate reads on Dav/lucky/NM rather than pursuing the other leads, which are clearly now wrong. If you don't agree - please ask me questions so I can answer any concerns or questions about my play so far.

If figuring out Davsto's involvement with the lane lynch helped Dav get lynched - then we need to look at Davsto's lynch to get the best information out of who is most likely town there and who is most likely mafia. The other distraction wagons yesterday were just distractions, mainly because they never completed.

Other instances in which pablito jumped off a wagon before a lynch occurred:

VC #1.19 wherein many are at 2
VC #1.20 wherein OGML is at L-1 in D1P2

FB and pablito were voting OGML. Then Lucky votes OGML. NM replaces in and votes everyone. OGML is now at L-1. Vedith posts and does not hammer. pablito ends up unvoting. Dav votes Lucky at this moment - Because NM was voting everyone, this sneakily brought Lucky to L-1. I vote OGML (to bring him back to 3 of 5), thus making it clear that I was not scum-reading Lucky. Lucky maintains L-1.

During all this, Dav corrects the vote count.

@mod - OhGodMyLife is also voting Lucky2u

So Dav ensures that Lucky is seen at L-1.

Sala asks people to look at Dav. This begins the wagon. Vedith votes Dav. pablito re-reads lane lynch and unvotes OGML and votes Dav.


Going back in time, let's look at Sala's initial post which is dead on:

Pages 1-5

Town: Vedith, OGML
Scum: Davsto/Lucky

Pages 6-12

Town: Vedith, OMGL, Pablito
Scum: Dav/Lucky, Fire

RIP Lane.

And I got to pg.15 and saw a scum claim. (EDIT: Yeah, glad I skipped the bullshit)

UNVOTE: All
VOTE: Firebringer

Terrible AtE and overall his posts look like bad scum here. I will go into detail later.

Meanwhile other reads:

Vedith: Town, I have my reasons and its not important as of yet, but Im pretty sure its town.

OGML: Never seen OGML post so much before, hes always lurked and ended up scum, so Im going to guess hes town. His tunneling as scum doesn't make sense to me honestly. (PS: Terrible loss to TB).

Pablito: This could end up being scum, but I stand by "Scum do not wall post" despite some players proving me wrong. Hes pretty damn townie and on the right Path.

Kyndy: I could go either way with her, but the way she was shocked about Lane flipping town looks organic so I guess she can lean town, but lynching her today wouldn't be optimal IMO.

One of Dav and Lucky are scum, I haven't liked any of their posts and the way they were ganging up on Luna early D1 and buddying each other D1 makes me think TvS. In this case Lucky over Dav.

So yeah, GG town:

VOTE: Fire
VOTE: Lucky
VOTE: Dav

Also time to look at the time when pablito un-hitches from the FB wagon:

465: Davsto votes FB to L-1
Sala quickly unvotes.
475: pablito unvotes FB and does not push FB toward lynch any further during the day to focus on OGML instead.

FB was not looked at for the rest of the day.

When I looked back, what I saw (in my biased toward pablito way) is that Davsto often pushed lynches very close to lynch. pablito counteracts by unvoting. There seems to be counterbalance between Dav and pablito - not acting in coordination much.

I welcome any questions toward me. Still not going to vote until deadline approaches.

[pablito]

If this is right beers on me.

VOTE: Not_Mafia

What kind of beer you buying for us?

Dittoed. I prefer lagers

[pablito]

Busy. On vla. Will not vote until deadline obv since lylo.

Sad fb died as I had him pegged as town but that was for hammer. I actually saw someone else as town more if that "town bloc" all were potentially busing davsto. I will look when I get back though to see if I feel same. Sorry ogml for so adamantly going down the no scum bus highway.

[pablito]

well let's walk through the obvious. pablito, why shouldn't me and vedith continue our town block and lynch you?

1) Because with so many votes in this game, vote count analyses should really help us look at things - and so far I don't think we've exhausted all of our efforts to look at what happened with Davsto's lynch.

2) We have 11 days still, there's no reason why we shouldn't use the time to look at everything.

3) You were hesitant in the town bloc in the first place, so I think we should look into that.

4) I was a big champion of the town bloc as well - because I fully thought that OGML or Not_Mafia were remaining scum and banked my entire game on it by trying to exclude myself from the town bloc. It was a losing move to not include myself in it and to not argue so. That's WIFOM for you.

5) I'm town, and I've been trying to show I'm town since OGML's lynch through my actions and pushes. I've just been so, so wrong in my interpretations.

6) We're in LyLo - which should usually merit time to analyse everything.



I'll look at the game later tonight when I get home and think of more questions. Here's my first set:

@Vedith - What changed between these posts?

I don't think both are scum... Although I would say Pablito over OGML if 1 is scum.

VOTE: NM

I'm not happy with voting Pab today. If he flips town that makes it so much harder going into tomorrow.

@Lucky - Please look back at the vote counts in D1P2 and tell us what you think of the votes on you and Davsto which lead to Davsto's lynch - who do you think were most responsible for getting Davsto lynched - then I have a follow-up question once you name them.

[pablito]

@Vedith - What changed between these posts?

A lynch on scum, expecting scum to not bus, OGML played odd, I mean, he went straight for you without even considering NM at that point.
A lot actually happened in those 100 odd posts.

OGML was hard up on me for no reason. As a townsperson he has pegged a LOT on me whether I was responsible for it or not. As much as I have been wrong on my reads this game, OGML did not do the town any service by pushing it all on me. I am annoyed that NM cut down the discussion short prior to lynching OGML on that one.

I would like for us to look back at what OGML said and disseminate that information. I feel that I was never going to be part of the town bloc because of him and scum is hiding behind that to peg it all on me rather than looking at who was directly responsible for helping get Davsto lynched. I feel like, yes, I have been leading town down a lot of wrong lynches. But I don't feel that these lynches were self-serving and that they were done with logic and rationale based on how votes have come down before.

[pablito]

So Vedith takes Davsto from 1->2 while voting pablito at the same time. Vedith is not voting Lucky at that time. Vedith has no pressure at that time and in fact Davsto was voting Vedith at that time.

Pablito takes Davsto from 2->3 while pablito is currently at 3 and Lucky at 4. Pablito has little pressure at that time.

Lucky takes Davsto from 3-4 while Lucky is currently at 4 but chooses to not vote pablito (under the guise of shotgun blasting "scum on my wagon").

The context appears that Lucky has the least to lose and more to gain if scum bussing scum. Vedith and pablito appear to have more to lose if scum bussing scum in that context. Hence I lean toward Lucky being scum.

ISO of Davsto (which I will get to later because I just woke up from a nap right before I go to sleep tonight) if I recall correctly would show Davsto voting Vedith close to lynch.

The only things keeping me from having a stronger Lucky-scum read right now are what I thought was Lucky being town in early D1P1 based on retrospectively-weaker reads, and the banter in D2P2 vote against NM.

Vedith to me has a clear, evolved mindset that seems to follow a more town mindset. I just need to re-read Davsto's pushes on both Lucky and Vedith to see what seems more genuine. What I see is the Davsto-Lucky interactions as being very convenient time-wise and rushed if it feels like there's enough space to bury the links between the town - whereas Davsto-Vedith seems intentional and heavy-handed to the point where Davsto pushed Vedith's lynch almost to the point of no return.

@Lucky if you're confused about this bussing - you can surely see why I felt so confident in the town bloc because all three of us seemed to have less incentive to push Davsto's lynch than OGML or Not_Mafia. Also why I was gobsmacked that we even went to night phase yesterday. As such, what do you think about OGML and my interactions? OGML was strong on two points "build a town bloc" and "pablito says scum did not bus scum - so don't drink his kool-aid".

[pablito]

I was making a post about dav's iso while watching survivor on tv last night but then feel asleep in middle and lost the post. Most of what I got through was fluff and hadn't gotten yet to davsto votes on vedith.

Because dav voted strongly with intention on both lucky and vedith it makes me feel that the intent was to scum bus scum d1p2 will look into that more later to see who had more motivation to do so.

@vedith a lot of it was the goodwill lucky built up with me in early d1p1 and looking so genuine in posts and continues to do so. It is in contrast with my one game with lucky before where it was mostly trolling posts. Also I wasn't buying that wagon. I think I said more back in d1p2 but can elaborate more if needed. Will have to look layer.

As for votes on dav it was mostly just a general gut feeling. Not sure anything specific. Sala reminded me no reason to not look there and close to deadline it felt a better lynch than lucky. Dav felt more like lurker scum which I tend to readbetter.

[pablito]

My car was broken into today so I'm in no mindset to review old posts. Terribly busy this week and I apologize for not having the brain power to do all what I want.

In fairness I think you are talking about megapopcorn mafia and that can not be used as a basis for my scum game. I even admit in the mafia PT that I got caught up in the troll persona and it would have looked suspect for me to come out of it. I'm usually pretty manipulative in my scum game. However I feel that I probably shouldn't waste time convincing you I'm not town.

You were horrible in mega popcorn as player, scum, or fake-town, but it's my only experience with you so I have to compare with that. Don't think it's enough to read though.

Here is my thought process for that right now. We went into this night phase with 3 members of a town bloc and Pablito. If it's pablito he has to kill a member of that 3 and leave the other 2 alive to convince to switch. So let's look at those 3. Vedith, Firebringer and Lucky. Vedith and Firebringer have been very open and confident in the town block and are least likely to flip thought processes and convince. Lucky has expressed doubt in the town block and would be the most enticing to leave alive as the person to sell the mislynch too. So that leaves pablito lucky and either fire or Vedith alive.

With the choice for pablito to kill Vedith or Firebringer he kills Firebringer... Why? If he is going to sell me on a mislynch, I already said I was doubting Firebringer most of all. Shouldn't he have killed Vedith?

Why isn't he voting Vedith and trying to sell me by now? His behavior doesn't seem like the desperate scum he should be by now.

ON THE OTHER HAND, if the scum was Vedith last night he has to look at either killing me or Firebringer and convincing the survivor to continue with the town block and hammer pablito. Firebringer is the clear person you want alive for this since he was %100 behind the town block so I should be dead if it was Vedith. Except that Firebringer has proven time and again he is unpredictable so maybe Vedith thinks I was the easier pushover. As with my pablito theory the issue is that he isn't selling to me to lynch pablito, so what the fuck is going on?

In conclusion neither of you are acting like scum should and we are all secretly town

and the mod is trolling us.

I do think the mod is still trolling us. The win was when we lynched Not_Mafia right? He said game over already.

With the quotes I underlined a very interesting thought pattern. It appears you have done a lot of thinking on the NKA. Too much, to be honest.

[pablito]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=62046
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=61262

The first one was OGML and me as the scum team. This is why we were always at each other's throats, because we know each other's scum game pretty well.

The second one was me laying back and letting town target town mostly.

I believe in both games, you'll see me commenting on the slot I replaced into. Third person is my thing I guess.

Vedith - care to share yours as well?

[pablito]

Pre-Davsto ISO. What I remember most is Davsto brought Vedith toward L-1 when there was no benefit to doing so. Davsto brought Lucky toward L-1 to get a lynch near end of the day. Most interaction seemed vitriolic between Davsto-Vedith. Davsto-Lucky didn't seem very unintentional. I'm focusing more on the actions taken a while ago as that will give me more information. What's being said today is all stuff that can easily be taken back, what was done and said before cannot.

Davsto ISO:

D1P1

(D/V + D/L) In #93 (ISO 3) there's a pile-on of lane by quoting Lucky. I'm wondering if there's any motivation for quoting Lucky in that post because it was a common argument at that moment. There's also a comment on Vedith/Luna. This could be Davsto trying to make Vedith look town?

(D/V + D/L) #169 (ISO 10) comment on all reads as requested by OGML. Town read Lucky, null PoE read on Vedith. Ends up voting lane, FB, and Vedith. The important piece is that Davsto intentionally defers from reading Vedith. This continues with the previous post 98 in which Davsto is unsure if the Vedith/Luna argument back and forth was TvT, TvS or SvS. This is later built upon when Davsto makes a large post on Vedith (in which I assume that Dav feels that it was TvS argument...). The early interactions make Vedith scummy in retrospect. I'll have to look at Vedith's posts too during this time to read this better.

D1P2

(D/V) #328 (ISO 16) At this point, Davsto is going for the kill to put at L-1 and fully builds the case up to get Vedith lynched. The context at this time is that it's very early D1P2 (Lucky had already voted Vedith at that time too). In this post Davsto also comments on Vedith without directing anything toward him. That's like my style...Nonetheless, this seems to be Davsto's style - so I don't think that we can read anything into the detached commentary style.

(D/V) #407 (ISO 22) IMO, this is the strongest evidence I have of the lack of the D/V pairing. I don't think that Dav would necessarily ask someone why the unvote if they're a scum-pair.

(D/L) #507 (ISO 33) This seems to come out of nowhere and is a huge push toward Lucky getting to lynch. OGML was a top vote getter at that moment. This is the strongest evidence against the D/L pairing. The context however is that at that exact moment of the post, Lucky did not seem to be in danger. However, with this game, it is easy to go from 0 to lynched. Lucky did get there, and that was mostly due to Davsto's post. I could see Davsto thinking that it was an appropriate moment to "bus" Lucky if the OGML lynch kept its steam up.




While also making this post, I notice that Vedith went from saying that FB is scum for sure then without any further justification calling FB as town after the outburst. I could not see scum making this assessment. FB was scum bait during the outburst - furthermore Vedith was a high vote target at that time. In fact, Vedith was not moving anyone toward anything during that time. Either was giving up...or just nuanced town thinking.

While the Lucky/Davsto links in D1P1 look townish...there's way too much damning evidence against the Vedith/Davsto pairing later on. Vedith had so many opportunities to go for mislynches and to push things in a scummy way, but did not. Lucky in isolation just seems so town though. The context in everything just makes me feel better about Vedith.

So @Vedith - why did you suspect FB before his outburst. You called him for sure scum.

@Lucky -

i hath been prodded! sorry NS, you won't have to do that again I hope.

@Firebringer/Thor: I could agree with that. N_M focus on me seems more town than scum. If he was scum, I'd have expected him to have backed off that train of thought by now. What with it being popular opinion that I am town.

As much as I like the security of the town bloc between myself vedith and fire, it's not unheard of that scum plans wild moves to sneak into a town bloc. If fire is scum and hammered his partner for example, something I fully think fire capable of as scum, he pretty much already won because I'm not voting that guy. Before I get into that deep of paranoia there.... let's see how pab/NM plays out.

Please share more about your doubts on the town bloc at that time.

[pablito]

We had three more days lucky and you never asked me about why I was not veering toward vedith...

That only made me suspect you more.

Oh well, I was horrible on pretty every single read. I deserve the loss. Just wish the rest of the town didn't have to lose too.