Micro 619: House M.D. Mafia - Game Over!

[Shadow Dancer]

Okay...

vote Heartless

Because waggon.
also, not quite sure how long turns are, so before I forget.

Search patient's home, look for sources of toxins, any signs of drug abuse and check the kitchen for her died.
Ask her, how exactly she broke her arm.
Also ask her, what she thinks about her husband making fun of her and how long that's been going on (both the making fun and the clumsiness).

I guess the ER have taken care of the broken arm just fine. If not, some one should maybe issue a complaint!

Okay, that's it for now, more tomorrow night, I am going to bed right now, good night every one.

[Shadow Dancer]

Also, assume that I don't ask her straight out how long "she's been clumsy". I'd like to be a bit more subtle than that, just ask her how long thins like the thing that broke her arm have been happening to her, something along those lines.

[Shadow Dancer]

Okay. Nice job heartless.
Even better that you seem to be the only one at least attempting something resembling scum hunting so far.

unvote

[Shadow Dancer]

(also, some one should probably leak that tape to the police and get the arsehole arrested for battery, but that's probably of no concern to us any more...)

Damn, there is little to go on so far. I am gonna go ahead and
VOTE: Mala
for giving the most extensive "let's just avoid the mafia part of this game" expression so far...

[Shadow Dancer]

I think that should actually be impression...

[Shadow Dancer]

Okay. Nice job heartless.
Even better that you seem to be the only one at least attempting something resembling scum hunting so far.

unvote

VOTE: Shadowdancer

siriously that was an attempt to buddying the one who voted you.

your not doing anything either. why you think jumping on mala for her interest in the other side of game is a valid point?

Because the ton of posts she has produced suggests that her not being concerned with anything but the patient is a sign of actually not even caring rather than just limited temporal resources. And then her posts give off a vibe of "just nice to have something innocuous to be talking about" while not really trying hard to actually diagnose and help the patient.
Tell me where I am wrong in my assessment of Heartless.

[Shadow Dancer]

first you didn't done anything yourself

Difference is: I made one page one post before I went to bed. In it I specified my actions and placed a vote, which is really all you can reasonably expect at that state of the game.

and I fail to see where did they tried to play the mafia part? the only thing I can see is they voting you becuase your early game was off. so it felt like buddying.

Which is more than any one else has done so far. I am certainly not gonna let them coast through to late game just on that. But since the waggon to get out of RVS is also not happening, why leave my vote parked there in the first place?

and y I see what your saying about mala. is it make her scum though? you genuinely beleive is it scummy to state they have no interest in the mafia side of the game and they signed up for the flavor side?

It's not about what she stated but about how she behaved. I also joined just because of the flavour. That does not mean I do not attempt to play this as a mafia game. And if she is so keen about the flavour, how is it that in about a dozen posts she did not even manage to send in a complete set of actions? All she asks are two questions and even those are 1. very generic and 2. probably at least in part common knowledge (i.e. it should be in the patient file).
Is this a dead sure sign that she is scum? No. But it's the best place to start that I could find.

[Shadow Dancer]

Okay, fair enough with regards to mala.
Right now I'd like to
VOTE: Creature[/b]
His declaring a "townblock" out off thin air as well as his "bored" comment seem iffy.

[Shadow Dancer]

VOTE: Creature

[Shadow Dancer]

VOTE: Creature
Let's get him unbored

Though shalt contribute something of your own before I return to this game later tonight, or grave measures shall be taken to first an foremost un

lurk

you.

Well shadow that was a rather easy jump off >.>

Sorry I can make it harder for you if you want.

Then we have a bit of trolling by Creature. I don't like him creating a townblock; But it's a viable strategy if you ask me.

It is neither a strategy nor is it viable... (see below)

Spoiler: nested quote

In my opinion Townblocs never work. If a scum gets into a Townbloc we are very likely to lose due to not lynching anyone in it. It seems that scum are more likely to want to force a Townbloc.VOTE: Creature

so you don't like that playstyle
if anyone has that playstyle is scum?

It is not a playstyle. Proclaiming a "townblock" is a meaningless action. Actual town blocks self organize dynamically through mutual reads during the course of a game, not by any one proclaiming them. And if there

is

and actual town block (which does not happen in a lot of games) explicitely proclaiming it as such is gravely anti-town.
Furthermore, proclaiming it two pages into the actual game is but meaningless drivel.

[Shadow Dancer]

I am not proclaiming a townblock, I am saying who I would put in a townblock.

I am not proclaiming a townblock, I am saying who I would put in a townblock.

Either way you are needlessly outing your (alleged. You do not even explain where they stem from) town reads for no reason at all. Stop that. That is anti-town and useless for finding scum (unless you can narrow it down to maybe two or three people by pure PoE).

Spoiler: nested quote

Sorry I can make it harder for you if you want.

I really don't like your posts shadow.

why are you appealing to people.

Simple: To keep this game appealing for every one involved. Keeps every one motivated and active. Motivated towns are better at finding scum.
If you are not planning on rather enjoying this game, I can arrange to make it more of an appalling experience for you, personally, if you want.
Put another way, if you think addressing people in a generally good mood is a sign of scum play, you definitely need to evolve as a player beyond the stage of arbitrarily applied one-dimensional "scum tells". If you are town, please do that fast.

and yes it is a playstyle to make a town block and poe scum. so many people play like that. not sure whats your point here.

"Many people" doing illogical, pointless and anti-town things does not make it the right thing to do. Duh.

[Shadow Dancer]

Spoiler: nested quote

Put another way, if you think addressing people in a generally good mood is a sign of scum play, you definitely need to evolve as a player beyond the stage of arbitrarily applied one-dimensional "scum tells". If you are town, please do that fast.

You definietly don't know me and my play ; Like obviously at all.
when did I call you scum for it?
I'm trying to understand how you develop your reads and behave and if their coming from town or scum.

Then maybe I misunderstood you. You seemed rather matter-of-factish about it, not merely inquisitive. There are unfortunately a lot of players around who have never refined their skills beyond the level of basic name calling and sound like "buddying, bussing, white-knighting, chainsawing, fence-sitting, [insert random wiki page title here]" for half of the game and expecially on day one and then quickly settle to tunnel hard on whoever their massive confirmation bias leads them to first, quite often me or another vocal player who disagreed with them; they are just an absolute nuisance to deal with.

How's it anti-town and why shouldn't I tell my town reads?

Because all it does is hand out a free kill list to scum. It achieves nothing with regards to any town goals.

I make townblocks on who I doubt is scum and it usually helps me get more town reads.

Do that. I do that too – in my head or on a piece of paper, then, when I can narrow it down further, I pursue the people I consider likely scum candidates.

Also, isn't we supposed to hunt scum and find town?

Yes, and kind of, if you want to go by PoE. But in the end lists of town reads without any reasoning behind them are not going to convince any one of anything. They are just a lazy way to feign activity at best.

[Shadow Dancer]

@Angel: Also, in how far is the wee detail that you are voting me, right now, not tantamount to you calling me scum?

[Shadow Dancer]

VOTE: Kop
Just as promised. Cannot have a lurker in a micro.

@Frozen: How does voting help you read people?

House also needs to explain his votes. Actually, he has yet to show any sign of actual reasoning for whatever he is trying to do here. His contributions so far boil down to hopping my waggon and making a little side insinuation about Kop's post timing.

[Shadow Dancer]

7 pages in everyone refuses to do anything interesting and either lurk or spit out glorified theorycrafting...
/sigh/

Indeed

Sorry I did not know that whining from the sidelines would be the thing to do to change things.

[Shadow Dancer]

go check my meta

Please be so kind and just explain your thought processes

I don't feel explaining my methods

The thing is, you seem awfully dodgy about your vote on me.

[Shadow Dancer]

Untrue.

I know you like your one-liners, but you'd need to elaborate a bit.

I also said you need more votes.

Not explaining the why does not answer the why. Please don't drag the discussion down to elementary school level.

[Shadow Dancer]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaand... then this page is just meaningless banter and drunk people. Great...

[Shadow Dancer]

So you make it a point being opaque about your thought processes? Or are you just confused about the meaning of the word "elaboration"?

[Shadow Dancer]

Sorry, I caught some cold and have the attention span of a pulpy banana right now. I should be better by tomorrow, I hope...

[Shadow Dancer]

Sorry, forgot about this yesterday. Will catch up later.

[Shadow Dancer]

Kind of have to comment on this:

Why I shouldn't vote scumleans?

Not much conviction in your read, makes it pretty easy to reverse yourself.

When a player's life is on the line, that's a pretty flippant approach

Being a dickhead about something based on minimal information always makes things so much better ;D

[Shadow Dancer]

You're not going to get that trust by being so blatantly obvious about wanting to form one.

Wrong, I already managed to make one townblock in a 7p game when I showed my intentions the entire game.

Just one last note on this: The problem is that things are much more complicated and chaotic than this. And if a single game is all the evidence you are acting on, then you are just massively confirmation biassed.

[Shadow Dancer]

Forming a Townbloc is a scumtell. In this game Creature formed a Townbloc. This specific Townbloc is a "Townbloc in general". Please explain how talking about it is active lurking.

Is it a scumtell though? What is your evidence for its being specifically indicative of some one being scum?

[Shadow Dancer]

I still think Heart, Shadow, Frozen, Mala and House are all town, so that leaves BTD6, Charloux and Kop.

Can you explain your town read on Mala, because at least by the point of this post she seems to merely give a consistent impression of watching from the sideline.

[Shadow Dancer]

@Angel: I am still not satisfied about your explanation for your vote on me. You do not want to do disclose your "methods", which is whatever... But you should be able to justify your results. First you say that your voting me is not indicative of you scumreading me. Next you call me a "scum-lean". A scum-lean is still a scum read though.

[Shadow Dancer]

VOTE: BTD

Acting as a "voice of reason" kind of player, then disappearing from the radar for no apparent reason (while even posting elsewhere, as Heartless pointed out), then get wound up with some minor thing like creature's town-blocking, when the game has moved on from that already, in sum show a behavioural pattern that I have often seen coming from scum.

[Shadow Dancer]

Titus replaces Charloux. Please welcome her!

O_o uh oh, Chaos has arrived?!

I townread Mala because she seemed to be interested in the game and I usually don't see scum interested.

She even explained that she was interested in the flavour/mechanics of this game, which has nothing to do with alignment (and people who actually enjoy playing as scum are not entirely unheard of either...) So this is completely alignment non-indicative. If anything her activity drop-off after the patient was cured should actually be a scum tell to you.

@mala: Congratulations to becoming an EMT.
As for your situation in general:
Do you actually lack the time to read along and keep up to date with your mafia games? Then you should probably replace out (or replace out of another game instead; I don't get how people can ever handle being in more than one game at a time anyway, though I suspect that most actually don't and just play badly in all of them...)
Otherwise, you don't actually need to put much extra time in for posting. Just give us a handful of lines every day, sharing some thoughts. You don't need to be major force in driving this game forward, but what I am wishing for right now are a few more thoughts to see where you stand and to allow others to read you.

I kicked Shadow Dancer out of our townreads. Shadow Dancer is a tricky case. He knows how to turn on the charm and he's actually :efforting: in his posting. But I still can't shake this uneasy feeling about him. None of his votes (Post 98, Post 123, Post 165) are egregiously bad. (OK, that's not entirely accurate. I thought the Creature vote was pretty bad.) But that's not what gets me. What gets me is that in the serial vote hopping, there doesn't really seem to be that much introspection or evaluation of previous votes going on. There's justifications and votes but not much outside of that and it's starting to feel like he's more worried about finding a defensible home for his vote than actually forming quality reads

Fair enough I guess. I don't think I ever called any of those early votes definite scum reads though. there was not really much to even go after for that stretch of time. So I rather used my vote to sort out some bad habits and nudge more people into the game. This is why I immediately switched off Creature for example once he started making decent posts.

There must be something about me and Titus (aka RadiantCowbells) that means our play styles clash so much that I scumread Titus in every game and she (he in the case of RC) scumreads me in every game.
Either way, I am scumreading Titus in this game. I am readying a wall of reasons why.
VOTE: Titus

So let me clarify: You know that your scum read on Titus is most probably a false positive by default, and yet you are willing to vote her over any one else after only a handful of posts by here at this point?

That's the first reason why you are disqualified in reading them. Secondly, house and I, have met Titus iRL so we both can read her due to that. And anti has played a number of games where I have seen him catch her quitenrasilyn

And we are to trust you on that? How does having met some one IRL translate to being able to better read them in a game exactly?

BTD's latest posts seem only concerned with mere self-preservation.

[Shadow Dancer]

@BTD: Are there really no other player besides Creature and Titus you'd have anything to say about?

[Shadow Dancer]

Spoiler: Could you please refrain from making posts like this where the quote walls are vastly longer than anything yu have to say? Paraphrasing is your friend.

I townread Mala because she seemed to be interested in the game and I usually don't see scum interested.

That is such a weak reason to townread. Scum can feign interest with ease, fooling you and Town if Town sheeps you.

VOTE: BTD6

You do realize I'm in the game, right?

Hi. Why should I care when BTD just left a strong scum indicator?

How is this a strong scum indicator? Please explain. I am not using it as a particularly strong tell, rather it is a very weak tell.

Get over it and engage me.

Why aren't you voting BTD6?

You are trying to force other people to sheep your opinions, without any reason or content other than "lynch BTD6_maker".

Nah, I didn't read all 13 pages. I just looked at votes and recent content. Stopped when I found obvscum.

Now, are you actually going to vote BTD or tell me why I am wrong?

You know what's a good way to get BTD's attention? A vote for him.

Hey Kop, you scumread BTD6. Let's lynch him.

Yet more comments that boiled down to "I scumread BTD6_maker (without reasons). Everyone should now switch votes to him." If you are pushing my wagon, at least give reasons.

Well, it's Titus, though, and she really was never up for giving reasons so I doubt she will. She will probably remain stubborn and anti-Town regardless.

I have been in many games featuring a Titus alt (RC) or hydra. These include Newbies 1700 and 1708, and a few ongoing games I can't talk about. What makes you think I'm less qualified than the others at reading Titus?

The fact you think this is worthy of discussion makes you less qualified.

[Shadow Dancer]

@House: ...
Quote walls are a nuisance that no one needs... or even reads most of the time. Period.
...

After going through all the isos again I am pretty down with a BTD lynch. mala, Titus, Kop are still king of out there in no man's land for me, so I could kind of see compromising on them right now. But I'd rather keep them stick around for now and develop my reads on them.

[Shadow Dancer]

Yes, you are right. I am a giant hypocrite. Post 358 is really but a screenful of quotes, several layers deep, followed by a one liner I made, addressing some non-specified thing going on somewhere in that wall I quoted.
I may have confused that with another post though, not sure...

[Shadow Dancer]

Don't worry, I can multi-task.

[Shadow Dancer]

@Angel: I see some real endeavour to find scum in his posts, even though I don't agree with everything. Mostly he looks like an inexperienced player to me who has yet to find his footing, which is in line with his rather recent join date. If he were scum I'd expect him to make a major slip-up sooner or later, so far I haven't really anything of that kind from him.

[Shadow Dancer]

I don't want discussion. Discussion leads to interpretation battles. I want scum lynched.

Make your point clear and there will not be much quarrel about interpretation.

[Shadow Dancer]

BTD is accused to be scum for active lurking [...]

What makes you think even this? No one voted him for active (or passive) lurking.

[Shadow Dancer]

and funny , I was thinking exactly the opposite about kop and BTD being a lynch bait. I'm not town reading eaither at all but why is BTD scum and Kop mislynch bait while I see you cornering BTD and just pushing for his death when you hate discussing it?

How can you think of any one as lynch bait if you are not town reading them in the first place?

[Shadow Dancer]

@shadow was that about Kop ?

No, about Creature.

[Shadow Dancer]

you clearly don't know Titus.

I do. I've seen her play already. But hope is never lost completely ;D

[Shadow Dancer]

Spoiler:

VOTE: BTD

Acting as a "voice of reason" kind of player, then disappearing from the radar for no apparent reason (while even posting elsewhere, as Heartless pointed out), then get wound up with some minor thing like creature's town-blocking, when the game has moved on from that already, in sum show a behavioural pattern that I have often seen coming from scum.

you are screaming that you voted him for active lurking in here

No. I am voting him for being concerned with only two things:
- survival by discrediting votes against him
- making a terribly justified vote on Creature with no other reads whatsoever.

I also vote him because earlier on when he was more active he was saying pretty reasonable things about Creature's town-block thing (obviously others, including me, have expressed similar opinions about it), but that's all he has done so far and when it comes to real scum hunting his activity just dropped off (while being active elsewhere on site).

All of this fits into the activity pattern of a scum player (yes, a bad one, you are right in this reagard!) It does not really give a full picture if you assume it coming from town.

If I'd vote for active lurking, I'd probably vote for Mala now.

[Shadow Dancer]

How can you think of any one as lynch bait if you are not town reading them in the first place?

becuase I'm definitely wrong about some of my scum reads atm and my read will change on some when I see some flips information.
is your process different?

I am not relying on flips too much in my reads. Sometimes they can help, but often they can be just as misleading, and changing reads on dead players is as trivial as it is useless...
My use of the word "lynch bait" is definitely different.

[Shadow Dancer]

servival and omgussing are NAI. It seems no one will ever listen to me aboth these , w/e
the second might be coming from a really bad town.

There is a difference between some one going OMGUS on some one else for voting them (which is not even what BTD is actually doing, as Creatures is not on his wagon) and some one doing nothing but try to survive.
Or how about this: Take the whole situation into consideration: BTD looks like some one killing time until some game dynamic develops to hop onto. Because this game moved as slowly and cautiously as it did, that tactic simply fell off and he'd have to make it up on his own. So there his play just collapses. It looks like typical scum play though.

[Shadow Dancer]

I was talking about his vote on Titus , not on creature.
and doing nothing to survive might be a scum tell in your pov and in so many people pov , but its not for me. I only look for the gaps and yes his play has gaps , enough to ensure my vote one him.
lets not discussing this further to help him to respond.

yes. It's definitely on him to respond right now. I am definitely not going to just let him

lurk

out of it.

[Shadow Dancer]

I'm a complete nihilist as town. I have zero interest in survival and have often self-voted.

Please don't!

[Shadow Dancer]

Okay, I am leaving now. I will be back in about 10h. Other people need to post now.

[Shadow Dancer]

@BTD

: Calling your performance here unsatisfying would be a major understatement. In the future, please refrain from joining games if you are not going to even try. I am really angry now as no one is to blame for this so much as yourself!

@Titus:

Explain why you were so overeager to get BTD lynched as quickly as possible.

Otherwise, I am willing to bet that scum is hiding within the lurkers (Mala, Kop). Cannot have that. I want to hear some major thoughts from them

now

. Claiming that Mala's dodgy responses start to annoy me would be another grave understatement on my part.

Patient

Elevated temperature points to infection. Other symptoms fit. Fainting seems like the most serious symptom, but then she was probably just exhausted...

Common knowledge/patient file:

For how long did she lose consciousness?

Question to parents:

Was any one else they know of in the family, at school or in the general environment of their daughter ill in the recent past?

Phone the school:

Same question.

Action:

Get some blood and run smears and cultures for bacterial infections.

[Shadow Dancer]

That's the reason you scumread him. I have no problem with that. What irritates me is that your whole interaction with Frozen seemed forced and blown out of proportion.

[Shadow Dancer]

My vote on Titus remains. lynch her or me today.

False dichotomy. You might both be town.

[Shadow Dancer]

I think I'll need to reread that whole Titus vs. Frozen argument again.

In the meantime
VOTE: Mala
Sorry, I can no longer ignore the fact that as soon as there is a patient again she seems suddenly more productive again.
However, there is one question that needs to be asked:
Mala, why aren't you ordering any tests or procedures?

[Shadow Dancer]

Nah SD. My hours are totally unreliable. I mean the night hit at the worse time because I'm a tad bit free more on the weekends than the week since I can stay up later and stuff /:

I mean you can bitch and moan and whatever, but I have actually given reads and thoughts out and not just patient sfuff.

You gave us one post worth of reads so far, and it's not very deep or thoughtful:

Spoiler:

Right now I'm reading the heartless hydra as town.
I'm also liking you as town.

House I'm not too sure of.
Shadow could potentially be town.

I haven't read much of BTD posts but I also didn't like the whole post re:patients, but I'm not sure if I think that's scum to say that /:

Everyone else can be null.

If anything I actually think SD is scum tbh.
Just a gut feeling.

Gut feeling: When you cannot even make up a proper reason.

Seems like majority of his targets this day are lurkers, for the most part.

The majority of players have been Lurkers for the most part. We cannot have that in a game that's probably only got two scum in it and only two potential mislynches and projected four game days to figure stuff out. Just ignoring Lurkers is a luxury that's not applicable in a micro game.

That's easy targets for scum to go after because it makes an easier case.

Then, if you are town, don't make it so easy. Do you seriously expect that I accept your being a Lurker as a valid reason to

not

vote you (or, likewise, Kop, for that matter)?
The point is that of the active players in this game I am pretty convinced by now that they are most likely town. I have some doubt about Titus still, but that's a trace I will investigate. However, I am convinced that there is at least one scum in {you, Kop} and I'd much rather probe you guys first before I start reconsidering all the reads I could build on the others during the course of D1.
Needless to say, unlike actually starting to be more open about your thoughts, voting me for suspecting you is not going to convince me of your townieness. At best that's just lazy, even as scum.
And please don't give me another talk about your 16h shifts. You obviously find the time to post more or less cheeky one-liners and long excuses for your not-contribution as well as some good content concerning patient care. So it seems like you actually have the time to post, after all. And then, as an EMT you probably have quite a bit of standby time, so if all is lost, do some phone reading/posting. What I don't want is another mislynch because some townie could not really be bothered...
Sorry if that came out a bit harsh, but I am trying to be constructive here. Mafia games require some blunt truth at times.

[Shadow Dancer]

Also, Kop's vote looks really horrible as well. "Oh look, I can deflect a Lurker wagon on me and don't even need to stick my own head out for it, Mala already did it for me". And that is pretty much the upper visible bound of his thoughts at this point.

FoS KOP

[Shadow Dancer]

As for the test thing. I don't really have that much of a clue what's wrong with the patient, but let me ask you this. If you were sick, would you like your doctor to do tests just for the hell of it?

Don't worry, patient's not real ;D No little innocent girls will be hurt during the course of this game.

PATIENT

question to patient:

Could you please describe to me as detailed as possible what you were doing and how you felt before you fainted?

common knowledge

: I am just assuming I had the common sense to note down the name of the classmate that fainted.

question:

Contact the other classmate's parents and ask whether there were any more symptoms besides the fainting and whether she (or he?) saw a doctor about it (get medical records if possible).

action

: Do a general examination. (in case this has already be done on admission, make this common knowledge instead and use

alternative action:

run a CBC)

[Shadow Dancer]

patient

Titus - Vitamins came back normal. Red blood count is normal. White blood count is low. Iron/Calcium/Oxygen is normal.

general knowledge question:

Does this mean that her test already encompassed a CBC?
Also, were glucose levels tested too?

[Shadow Dancer]

patient

question to Jake's parent's:

Could you bring Jake to the hospital today for an examination? It is probably nothing serious, but we want to make sure. Your son's case could be connected to another patient we are treating right now who is at the same school.

[Shadow Dancer]

patient

(FYI, since you've already made contact with Jake's parents, you can ask more questions without spending another Action unless you decide to go back to the hospital first.)

another general knowledge question:

Why did I not just call them? I don't think the doctor coming in person would make them any less disconcerted...

[Shadow Dancer]

patient

question to Jake:

Does your neck feel stiff?
if yes:

Action:

Do the meningitis test then (i.e. do an LP and check the fluid for white blood cells and signs of inflamation)

[Shadow Dancer]

Sorry for being less active than I need to be right now. I wrenched something in my neck or soemthing while asleep and can hardly sit straight without pain for any extended amount of time right now

patient

Anyways, I'm 85% sure this is meningitis.

Now to me to do non-case stuff.

What do you make of no stiff neck then?

[Shadow Dancer]

She gave a meek as hell see where this goes after wanting my head yesterday. Might has well have claimed scum and she wanted a t v t.

What do you mean by t v t (probably not Terran vs Terran or Team vs. Team...)?

[Shadow Dancer]

I am officially stupid today...

[Shadow Dancer]

patient

can you do those tests once the patient has fever and seizes once in a while?

Your serious proposal is to do a spinal tap during a seizure?

I actually wanted to do an LP on the other patient for that matter...
Actually, I do not know what to do really. It must be some sort of infection. But symptoms seem rather unspecific. There seem to be neurological problems, but that could just be due to the high fever...

common knowledge:

Is Jake's fever equally high?
I am also not quite sure what to make of this:

ACTION: You've run a Gram Stain. It doesn't react, leading you to believe nothing's bacterial.

(the result I got after ordering blood cultures, pretty sure what I got is not even what I meant...)
Anyway, if it is bacterial, then either they cannot be found in a gram stain (many bacteria have unclear results in a gram stain, but I am pretty sure you'd at least find

if

there are any bacteria in the blood at least). However, bacteria could be just not in the blood but only in infected tissue... I am just not sure how much Kuroi actually thought about this (or did the research) before giving me that answer.

common knowledge clarification:

Do you actually mean, that this cannot possibly be bacterial, as the second part of your answer suggests, or do you just mean the more realistic thing that there are no bacteria in the blood sample?

[Shadow Dancer]

meh, my neck starts hurting from sitting upright again, so no long research today...

patient

Action

: I want to examine both patients' lymph nodes.

[Shadow Dancer]

patient

Also, since some of you don't really seem to order any procedures, you could always do some standard stuff.
I think we still haven't got a CBC or glucose test...

[Shadow Dancer]

The Patient

Shadow Dancer:

(Sorry, I missed your other common knowledge question.) Jake's fever is about 101.5 degrees F.

Use sensible units please ;D

[Shadow Dancer]

Action: You examine the patient's lymph nodes. You find them to be swollen and tender.

Which

patient? Both? I examined them both!

[Shadow Dancer]

Common Answer Clarification

: It doesn't

appear

to be bacterial, at least not to you. You are human, therefore subject to error.

If only there were specialists we could ask to do things in order to minimize the likelihood of those errors...

Even specialists can be wrong. Minimize is different from eliminate. I have to be objective and realistic when modding this game.

There is a clear line between a red herring and a lying bitch of a bastard mod. Your answers keep me confused as to on what side of the line you stand. If I would have to expect to randomly just screw up tests and get faulty results, that would be wide into bastard territory!

[Shadow Dancer]

Welp I just killed the patient

Why? (Though steroids corticosteroids are generally given to moderate immune responses, tight? So giving that with antibiotics seemed weird to me. What are you trying to treat? The inflamtion in case of meningitis?

[Shadow Dancer]

PATIENT

Okay, parallel course of disease in both patients seems to confirm that they have the same thing. We therefore also know it is infectious and all tests seem to point towards that as well (swollen lymph nodes is another typical sign.

common knowledge question:

I think there was a rash mentioned somewhere. Can you describe more in detail where on the body it is and how exactly it looks like?

action:

To an LP on Jake (because he seems more stable right now).

Also please remember Titus' request for the boy's vaccination records. If it turns out fake as well, that means irresponsible wacky parents are a likely cause of the disease
I am a bit at a loss. Let's say it really is not bacteria (which so far seems indicated). Next more likely is viral. And there we are right in the territory of mostly very specific test and medications, for all I know...

[Shadow Dancer]

patient

I would love to post a pic of the rash, but reverse image search is going to tell you what it is so I'm not going to. The rash is pink, it's spotty in places and merged into smudges of pink in others. The rash seems to slightly disappear already on the extremities (arms/hands and legs/feet) but on torso and face it's still heavily visible.

That's on both patients, right?

[Shadow Dancer]

patient

However, upon examination, you find no rash on Jenna, the patient. At least, not on her chest or back. You look to her face and find that the freckles on her face is actually a rash and is similar to the look of the one on Jake's body.

So we are such a bunch of idiot docs that the girl has a rash right in her face and we mistake it for freckles? Uh oh!

Mod: Results on the other patient's vaccinations I feel like I am forgotten

I'm sorry. You are far from forgotten.
You manage to get a hold of the other patient's vaccinations and they are up to date. Because of the other patient, you take a look closely at Jake's vaccination records. They appear to be 100% legitimate to you.

general knowledge/clarification question:

Can you specify what "up to date" means? Can you give us a list of everything he is vaccinated against?

[Shadow Dancer]

UNVOTE:

Sorry, but I do not really see the need to rush a lynch right now.

patient

patient

Shadow Dancer:

The vaccine report being up to date means that all the vaccinations required/available were given to Jake.

And you seriously expect me to just know what vaccinations are required in New Jersey? I am not even used to schools keeping vaccination records of their students... So why don't you just give me the list?

Anyway, everything points to a viral infection. It presents with general flu-like symptoms and a rash.
Fainting and other neurological symptoms are probably just caused by high fever and general exhaustion.
Since, unlike House, we are not actually chasing Zebras here, it is probably something incredibly generic like measles, rubella, chickenpox or scarlet fever. I am particularly thinking measles. Mala seems to think along the same way, hence the mouth exam. The results seems to strongly suggest measles. This would also perfectly fit the crazy anti-vaccser parents, who probably also thought a little measles party would be just the thing to make their daughter fit for life...
Problem? All these should have been vaccinated for. So unless the kids actually have different infections, it should really be none of these.
Since treatment for all of these is just wait and see and hope that no complications occur (and manage those as good if possible if they do) I guess it's just about confirming the diagnosis to get the point?

alright then, do an antibody test for measles on both patients

.

I'd also like to just queue my further acions: If it's not measles. please cross check with Jake's vaccination records and if he is not vaccinated against either of rubella, chickenpox, or scarlet fever, test for that as well, in that order of priority.

If it's neither of these I will come just up with more, more exotic viruses to test for...

[Shadow Dancer]

patient

Actualy, cross scarlett fever off that list, as it is bacterial and there is no red tongue (though also not a vaccination, it seems...).

[Shadow Dancer]

Actually
VOTE: Kop
His absolute non-reaction to my answer to his vote is bothersome and inacceptable. Maybe he should just be replaced, however.
Likewise, I don't like Mala being back to ignoring me and, to play that ball back to her,

Well

shadow

[Mala] that was a rather easy jump off >.>

Further observation: Creature seems by now to be quite comfortably in his own little lurkland.
Seriously guys, if you are town this kind of non-commitment is simply inacceptable.
If you are scum, however, well, I don't care, lurk on. I already made clear that I am not afraid to lynch lurkers, so do it at your own risk.

[Shadow Dancer]

Prod-dodge.

Apparently I am not good with medical things.

I hope you are aware that this makes your also ignoring the mafia part of this game look even worse?

[Shadow Dancer]

Actually, why did you join this game then?

[Shadow Dancer]

patient

common knowledge

: According to the vaccination records, how many measles/MMR shots has Jake received and how long ago?

question:

Confront Jenna's parents about their record forgery and ask them whether Jenna had any contact with some one who had measles in the last month or so.

procedure:

No reason not to follow up on a positive result: Do virus RNA test for measles on both patients.

There are a few possibilities for what is actually going on here, but I'd rather wait for the results of these tests before speculating too wildly...

[Shadow Dancer]

DrippingGoofball replaces Kop. Please welcome him to the game!

Yaaaay!

[Shadow Dancer]

patient

Dr. Dancer shrugs and goes back to Jenna's room to draw some blood for the HCV-RNA test he planned to do. The result: negative (which means no antibodies for HCV found)

HCV is Hepatitis C right? I said measles test. MEASLES! Of course she does not have hepatitis. And RNA ≠ antibodies (which are proteins...).
Anyway, she has measles; if she has antibodies and is not vaccinated, that means she has the actual disease. I don't know what else to say ; except for mentioning the fact that you ignored my request to check the details of Jake's MMH shots...

Is she taking insulin doses?

This you can find by reading the updates. That is your responsibility, not mine.

Actually, that is only partially true. It is your responsibility as a mod to make this game as accessible as possible to players. The mechanics as they are are already confusing enough. It would certainly not hurt you to provide us with a constantly updated list of current medications (and maybe known symptoms as well) with every vote count. It's just a copy-paste job for the most part.

[Shadow Dancer]

I think I need to type up a huge wall answer to you, masquerade. Won't do that before this evening.

I sent you a pm, I don't think this thread is the place to discuss this any further. If anything comes from our discussion that others need to know, I will ofc let everyone know.
-Masq

[Shadow Dancer]

<.<
What's the point with arguing with the mod

At least two point, in fact:
1. There is a communication issue, so we can either just sit and get increasingly frustrated with each other, or we can try and find a constructive solution, which requires "arguing" over the issue.
2. For me, on principal, playing to win includes playing the mod wherever I can, because it works ;D

patient

I think I need to type up a huge wall answer to you, masquerade. Won't do that before this evening.

I sent you a pm, I don't think this thread is the place to discuss this any further. If anything comes from our discussion that others need to know, I will ofc let everyone know.
-Masq

Yeah, okay, I'll come back to you regarding this.

Run diagnostic for Roseola

I'll just pull a typical house line on you and ask you: How long do you want to go on testing for random diseases that don't fit the symptoms? It's

measles

. Get it already? Best treatment is to finally give the patient some rest and not prick her with any more needles!

ask parents if we can vaccinate Jenna for up-to-date shots, if so, do it

1. Good luck with the crazies.
2. You seriously want to give her mass antigen injections while her immune system is fully occupied fighting off a massive infection already? Does sound like a pretty suboptimal idea.

I order a spinal tap! She has meningitis!

I already ran an LP. You can just check the results. And there are no signs of meningitis.

[Shadow Dancer]

@DGB: Any thoughts on the mafia part of the game, by the way?

vote Creature

[Shadow Dancer]

patient

Actually, since this seems to bother so many of you so much:

clarification question:

How high exactly is her blood sugar level?

[Shadow Dancer]

patient

She has

measles

...
and generic by-effects of being weakened by illness and high fever...
and is plagued by a horde of overeager, but incompetent doctors harassing her, which at this point probably accounts for a significant amount of her symptoms.

Jake may have measles as well, or something else, still waiting on some clarification on that. There are several reasons why he is already getting better;
- he showed symptoms first, so he is naturally farther progressed in the disease, probably a week ahead, which in case of a normal progression simply means he is getting better.
- his vaccination may have been ineffective or very recent or he may be inflicted with some kind of immune deficiency. However, he may still have the advantage of at least a partial immunisation going for him
- she underwent more tests and "treatments" than him, so go figure : She has more side effects.

[Shadow Dancer]

patient

Jenna has rubella. (Mala brought it up a while ago, but I didn't interpret it as a real guess because of the way it was formulated) Jake has rubella too, but is already getting better. Jenna had a complication that has caused her BP to rise as well as her blood sugar levels, chestpain, night terrors, loss of appetite and loss of bone density.
I think (hope) that with this information it shouldn't be too hard to figure out what is going on. It is treatable, and it's not all that rare at all.

I still don't know what you expect us to do about it. Rubella is not different than measles in that it's basically wait and see, plus keeping her hydrated and controlling the fever, which we already do.
Or do you expect us to hook her up to IVIG (anti-body treatment), which seems excessive. (or maybe we should remove her brain and put it in a jar for safe keeping...)

I'll rant about other obvious problems in private, I guess.

[Shadow Dancer]

patient

I know she has been on the right track all along (except for giving corticosteroids to a patient with an infection in the first place, which I do not understand at all). The steroids, together with her rubella flaring up due to the suppressed immune response, accounts for all the symptoms.

Jenna's symptoms*:

sore throat, cold

any of countless infections

rash on face/body and in mouth

Rubella (would also fit measles)

fever, swollen lymph nodes

Infection

fainted (unconscious for about 5 minutes), seizure

She is sick and runs high fever

high BP, high blood sugar

side effect of corticosteroids

loss of hearing (not deaf), bleeding problems (missing from Masq's list, but mentioned at least twice before)

serious complication of rubella, probably brought on by steroids

headache, loss of appetite, drinks a lot of water

Signs of being sick, I guess

night terrors

Could just be caused by the fever, or steroid-induced anxiety

broke her wrist after tripping when she tried to go to the bathroom

Steroids can reduce bone density (however, bones do not just evaporate in a second, this is a long term effect that one dose of steroids should not be able to cause, so it's probably her being unconcentrated due to being sick and stressed out by doctors...)

slower speech, slight pains on the chest, indicators of infection in CSF

Rubella can advance to pneumonia and brain infections and lead to heart defects and mental retardation. steroids probably helped it along a notch. Needless to say, this is obviously very bad in deed.

We already tool her off the steroids. Her body should have metabolized most of it by now, shouldn't it? We could maybe help along with dialysis, but it seems more like the damage has already been done.
All I can come up with is confirming the brain and lung infections (which may be opportunistic secondary infections instead of rubella...)
Only ways to tread rubella/viral infections are antivirals and antibodies (either IVIG or specific).
I don't really want to do biopsies right now. Let's

do an MRI of her head and chest

(and please don't insist on only doing one body part at a time – while we already have her in the machine, we can as well do both and be done with it. You can have Creature assist me, if you want, he is not doing anything anyway.

Prepare the parents for their child dying due to medical incompetence.

You're having real fun with this, aren't you?

[Shadow Dancer]

May we please have an extension of one day, maybe two, to make up for the time lost?

[Shadow Dancer]

Action

: I personally perform a brain transplant of the two patients using nothing but a hammer to render the patients pliant and unconscious, and a rusty hacksaw. In an unsterilized room. And I accidentally drop both brains.

Oops. Case closed.

Who's scum?

I guess we have to declare this game officially braindead then :\
Seriously. Whither go from here?

[Shadow Dancer]

You think Goofy is scum for voting you?

[Shadow Dancer]

@Titus: thing is: Your advocating Mala does look no less opportunistic than DGB's vote on you.

@DGB: Why do you think Titus is scum?

[Shadow Dancer]

patient

I cannot find anything new on the patient. So I'll just keep her under surveillance and hope that she gets better soon, without any more nasty complications.
@Mala: If it is high blood pressure, then what is causing the hypertension? She is only 8 years old, mind you. I am not sure putting her on more medications that do not solve the underlying cause is really helpful or indicated.

[Shadow Dancer]

I need to reread some things before I place down my vote again. Too many reasons to be kind of repeatedly in and out of it recently. I feel like I need to look at things in a fresh light.

[Shadow Dancer]

patient

Hey guys. I've spoken to Masquerade for a bit and I think a lot of you are a bit fried and frustrated with this. I've come to the decision that dwelling on the complication and other mysteries will agitate or irritate a few people and I think it's best if we continue with the Mafia aspect of this game and we'll try again tomorrow.

By the way, if you want the complication, it's

encephalitis.

The same encephalitis that we were told about:

Dr. Shadow Dancer: You do a full body MRI of Jenna. You find no signs of masses, clots or other obstructions, nothing wrong in the lungs as far you can see on the MRI. The only thing that is slightly off, is Jenna's brain. It seems to be a little enlarged, but not enough to be worrisome.

You conclude that the ibuprofen/tylenol have kept the encephalitis under control. It has to be something else that's causing these symptoms in Jenna.

Guess why this is frustrating to play...

Interesting side note: We are actually doind whole body MRIs now?!

[Shadow Dancer]

Hmm... If only I weren't so tried right now. My gut tells me scum are either Mala/DGB or Creature as an alternative (interesting that he is now listing Mala/DGB as his reads as well, not sure what to make of this, could include bussing though. Trying to outguess scum on their reads is just letting them dictate the rules, anyways, so I am not even going to speculate). Anyway, enough train of thought, I'll give this the promised reread tomorrow before I determinate my final vote/vote options. Don't worry, I make it a point to be around at deadlines to ensure a lynch...

[Shadow Dancer]

Mala, what did I even do for you to drop your clear scum read on me?

Okay, after some rereading I must say that I still cannot find anything that I really like from the Kop/DGB slot. All she is doing seems really superficial, to be honest. Half of it is just plain silly (calling out role fishing two days before deadline, on the L-1 waggon?...)
And what is this supposed to mean?:

I don't play the "intent" game. That only helps scum.

Is this referring to the intend to hammer proclamation into claim procedure? How does that only help scum?

Still have to reread a bit...

[Shadow Dancer]

Don't panic, I am around, as promised.
Still need to make up my mind about Titus.

[Shadow Dancer]

Sorry, stuff and then more stuff crept up and got me sidetracked. Resuming now.

patient

Just one thing I don't want to forget about:

Report the girl's parents and that corrupt headmistress to the authorities for document forgery and child abuse.

Titus, how is Mala hurting the patient relevant to the question whether she is scum?

Interesting observation: Mala being back at calling me scum, only after being called out on her mysteriously disappearing read by me. I did not ask her about it without reason. I see a pattern of general non-confrontationalism (or whatever the noun would be) with her. Her case lack the teeth and claws to be be believable and make me think they are genuine.

[Shadow Dancer]

Shadow Dancer, we're done with patient stuff for today. We'll start back again tomorrow.

Phhhhht. Killjoy.

[Shadow Dancer]

D: Reading-wise, mala is a piece of mush and Titus is a rollercoaster and between the two of them I feel like I lost my mojo... The one I really want to lynch right now is DGB, but alas, that is not gonna happen...

[Shadow Dancer]

I'll just go out one a leap of faith and
VOTE: Mala

Just tell me, Mala, are you scum?

[Shadow Dancer]

Sorry Mala, I guess I actually did lose my mojo...
What do you mean, Frozen? I never pretended Titus was not gonna happen. I was clearly speaking of DGB there, who at that point had zero votes on her. Between Mala and Titus is was a coin toss for me.
However, I am pretty sure it's Titus/DGB by now. I first want to hear some serious input from Creature today, though.

[Shadow Dancer]

Not so lynch happy any more, Titus?
Do you still think Frozen is scum?

[Shadow Dancer]

Explain your scum read then. At best it looks like you have a personal grudge against Frozen right now.

Oh, and I am against a mass claim. Don't think it will give us any worthwhile info. If there are PRs who have info to share, they will now come forth on their own.

[Shadow Dancer]

@Frozen: Why creature over DGB?

[Shadow Dancer]

House kind of baited him, though. But as I said, Creature needs to give better input. Now.

[Shadow Dancer]

I said you make sense as scum. So does Shadow. So does DGB. So does Creature.

Way to call every one scum.

[Shadow Dancer]

What does EoD mean?

[Shadow Dancer]

Titus popcorned you.

Not your business. You have your own reads and actions to explain right now. I already said I am against a mass claim.
But, okay, the point I really want to drive home here is:
1. I am town.
2. But I am not a VT.
3. There is no useful info I have to share.
4. I will not under any circumstances claim any more (no, not even my role name, what would you expect that to tell you anyway?). You will understand why eventually. End of discussion. Don't even ask.

[Shadow Dancer]

Frozen can call the next claim if she wants.

[Shadow Dancer]

Patient

Screw the patient. Seems to be some kind of weirdo anyway. Probably nothing serious either. All patients have done so far is cost us time for scum hunting.

@Shadow, if you're town, I already fucking know because I am town.

Know what exactly? Did you just claim cop?

Shadow, you're supposed to pick your biggest scumread that has not said PR or VT.

Sorry, I may be just to dumb right now to understand the basic principle of this. Please repeat another half dozen times to me

[Shadow Dancer]

Frozen is sounding like denial town now. Finally.

You really need to explain right now how frozen now is suddenly all different than Frozen all game has been.

[Shadow Dancer]

I am here if you're wondering.

No, you are wrong. Saying nothing of relevance at all does not quite qualify as "here" yet. Next try please.

[Shadow Dancer]

I was all the game like this

she is just apeasing

That is why I asked Titus and not you O_o

[Shadow Dancer]

Interesting. So you are afraid to compromise the mass claim and yet you just revealed your full role (by now two soft and one hard claim and counting) before every one has even claimed their VT status? Why should I believe that you are that uncapable?

[Shadow Dancer]

Blocked, twice.

How convenient...

I knew it was matrix 6 from the second block.

What makes you think this is anything like M6?

Also, now that you are all out already, please claim your role name and flavour in the next post.

[Shadow Dancer]

Eric foreman, oncologist.

Lier lier pants on fire... (Foreman is a neurologist, the Oncologist would be Wilson)...

[Shadow Dancer]

You're the doc shadow.

Of course I am a doc. We all are.

It's the bloody flavour of this game!

I already told you that I will not claim any more. And I don't believe that from the alleged existence of a cop and RB (the most generic, yawn-worthily boring combo known to man) you would deduce this is M6 (or any sub-setup thereof).

[Shadow Dancer]

Now we wait on DGB.
I am like 95% sure on

creature

Titus scum fyi.

ftfy

[Shadow Dancer]

I know that. The mod said it though. I have seen the show. I don't know why the mod did not match but I get bonus to cancer.

Mod has stated to have seen the show multiple times. Plus it's his own flavour. Why would I assume he screwed this up more likely than you?

[Shadow Dancer]

I get sick and tired of dumb players not doing shit and yelling at me for solving the game.

Tell me to what extend you came even close to "solving this game"?

[Shadow Dancer]

My pm does talk about neurology but phrases like a chance or some shit. Nothing actually relevant to the game.
My bet cancer is a red herring though.

I'd rather guess you are the herring. And look how the herring is floundering on the hook now...

[Shadow Dancer]

I cracked the other or, uncovered frozen as town despite her own insistence for me to scumread her. I am obvtowning the fuck out of you and her both.

After calling us both scum at day start? After nothing at all has happened to conclusively change your mind?

You do think Frozen is town right?

You can prove me wrong anytime Shadow. Claim not doc.

Sorry, not in this for the ego. You cannot bait me. Forget about the role fishing.

[Shadow Dancer]

If you are so sure about that, why are you not voting DGB or Creature right now? By PoE they'd necessarily be both scum, what have you got to lose?

[Shadow Dancer]

Why do you think you need to "prove" Frozen and I to be town to each other? And if you have so much knowledge to do that (after being blocked 2 times?!), why don't you start by proving that you are town yourself? Just so we know we can trust you.

But, okay, let's assume for a moment that you would need to convince me that Frozen is town. What would you tell me to "prove" it to me?

[Shadow Dancer]

Interesting. I'll let this simmer for a bit.

[Shadow Dancer]

I don't know.

You tried to give the impression that you actually had a plan, though.

I would first have t ascertain if you already townread Ffrozen or you concerns if any.

So if I just admit to town-reading her, you would not have to deliver anything?

Ok, I will break down matrix 6 again.

1) the patient being complicated means a simple setup.
2) I copped frozen n1. Was blocked.
3) I copped DGB n2. Was blocked.
4) since frozen and DGB are not both ascetic (point 1), I was blocked both nights.
5) cop jailor doesn't work for balance.
6) cop doc matrix 6 only follow the cop proof simple setup.

Aaaaaaaand... No, this is just sidetracking again. Not interested.

[Shadow Dancer]

I actually did hint I was a PR long before this.

Where? Show me your crumbs!

[Shadow Dancer]

There's nothing I CAN deliver. Why spam the thread proving what you already know? Frozen is town.

And what makes you think now that she is? You have been all over her for all game. I still don't change what changed about her to change your mind in an instant.

Hey, that "sidetrack" is how I made my deduction. Either you want to discuss it or you don't.

You are right, I don't want to do pointless setup speculation.

Or I can go through and show how pr/vt massclaim is what I do.

No. What would that prove?

Or I can remind you of balance.

Again, ungrounded speculation.

Or I can discuss how I felt why I felt in in game.

Yes, that is something you should do. As detailed as possible!

I will not spam and try to guess what you want.

You are spamming anyway. And you know what I want. But for simplicity's sake, let's just pretend I want to believe you, despite all of your blatant inconsistencies today. Why should I?

[Shadow Dancer]

@Frozen: Please do not vote yet. Not before Creature has joined in the fray as well. I'd rather have this game all neatly wrapped up before we go for a lynch.

[Shadow Dancer]

The massclaim and how she approached lylo. Scum would appease or resist at every turn. DGB is old enough to know that mass claim here is appropriate. Yet, she wants to hurry through my lynch. She then says she cannot out debate me to be a wounded pigeon and leaves...while posting elsewhere. The contrast between the two tells me Frozen is town. The effort tells me frozen is town. Frozen emotion here finally clicked right. I needed the massclaim.

Frozen's effort and emotion, as you put it, have been pretty much the same throughout.

You don't get it do you. That pointless discussion is what confirms me as town. The setup must be balanced. It is only balanced when I am telling the truth.

You cannot even know that without knowing exactly what I am or even having heard a claim from DGB.

@DGB: In accordance with your own sig, why are you stalling the claim now?

That I do pr and vt in open setups because scum will be forced to narrow down te universe.

I can talk to you about how I felt at any given point in time.

Go on. You have all night; because I am going to bed now. Good night.

[Shadow Dancer]

All town players, please don't do anything hasty. Status quo of votes is gold.
I had sort of an epiphany tonight. I have not quite solved this yet, But I think I can. Just give me another ~two days to sort some things out.

@Creature: Let me make one think very clear to you: If you do not depart from lurksack-backwood over the weekend, I will lynch you, and only you, today.
I will treat your keeping on lurking as tantamount to claiming scum. So if you are actually scum, just keep lurking, it is really the easiest variant in that case.
However, if you are town and you care one bit about this game, you better give us some serious input ASAP.
(and if you are town but do not care at all, do the decent thing and get replaced!)

[Shadow Dancer]

I also wanted to save Goofbaal fro dying. You eve asked me. Give I said don't let her die. And obviously, she was not prevented from self-targeting either. So it would not have been over. We should have played the night out!

Were was I lying, Titus?
Were was DGB actually lying?!

[Shadow Dancer]

EBWODP: I also wanted to save Goofball from dying at the end. You even asked me if I wanted. And I said don't let her die. And obviously, she was not prevented from self-targeting either. So it would not have been over. We should have played the night out!

[Shadow Dancer]

you did gave me a huge towncred by lynching BTD and mala for just feeling their assosciated with me

The real sad thing for me is that I did not town-read you for any associations (because I don't give a damn about associative tells, they are scum's major manipulation territory, why play the WIFOM game from a weak point?)... Congratulations, I guess. Questionable mod handling of the situation or not, you definitely deserved to win this. (Creature does not. I would have lynched him today, no matter what, ironically because my wrong town read on Frozen made him confirmed scum by PoE).

[Shadow Dancer]

So I did partially screw up. I asked Shadow Dancer if Goofball should die and when I read "No absolutely not," I thought I asked, "Did you want to save Goofball?"

Still though, Shadow Dancer earlier on sent me a list of people who he would save. DrippingGoofball is not on the list. And Masquerade reminded me that by the time I sent the list, it would be too late for Dancer, so I was wrong to double check with Shadow Dancer in the first place.

Well, you can handle this however you like. But you need to be open and consistent about it. You asked me on day 1 (I said no, obviously). You did not ask me on day 2 (kind of understandable, given that I had just placed the hammer myself and Mala had not even had the chance to react to the hammer [and thus change my mind]), so I asked you whether you would give me the chance to intervene on day 3. You did not even answer that PM, but you asked me anyway. Then you misread my answer, because you could not check which question you had actually asked first?! And even though my answer would not even make sense, assuming I am still playing to my wincon?!i
I'd also like to remind you that the "list" was actually my idea to make things more convenient for you, not how you actually intended to manage my action.
So overall, sorry, but this was just overly sloppy modding on your part.

[Shadow Dancer]

@TItus: By the way, learn to hide your crumbs better. These were way too obvious for scum to pick up on...

[Shadow Dancer]

Links to PTs

[Shadow Dancer]

^?

[Shadow Dancer]

Well, I guess we can still play the patient now...

[Shadow Dancer]

The problem is that outing both of our roles was the way scum to win, Titus.

It could have played out like this: I safe Goofball and she protects the right person at night, we win because scum have outed themselves via double hammer (typical scum gets screwed over by the setup after failing to eliminate power roles and getting incautious in late game situation). Now, Goofball also became incautious when she thought it was over and claimed doc. Means scum could have just blocked her and killed whomever they wanted to win (but still there is an outside chance that scum would have blocked the cop and failed to kill her self-protecting, as self-protecting docs are usually not expected).
General rule:

• It's never over before the mod has declared it over. Do not drop your guard as either alignment (actually, do it as scum, go, DO IT! )
  
• You may pretend to drop your guard every once in a while, though, for all the beautiful WIFOM that can come from it.

[Shadow Dancer]

Anyway

patient

question

: Can you walk me through your usual daily routine?

question

: Any one else in your family and close surroundings sick lately?

action

: Since it seems to affect his stomach, let's start at the scene of the crime:
Do a physical examintaion of his abdomen. Any swellings, hardenings, palpable masses? And play that "where does it hurt? Here? (er, no...) Here? (A bit.) Here? (AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!)" game that doctors do. And I guess I can use this very doctorly stethoscope of mine and listen in on what music his guts are playing.

[Shadow Dancer]

I suspect Kuroi doesn't want to play it out, as he already shared the mod thread, which probably contains the solution... But I haven't looked it up yet. That'd be boring.

[Shadow Dancer]

The problem is that you expected every one else to just cater to your demands, when claiming was not an optimal strategy.
I know that "it's lylo, let's massclaim" is kind of the standard for site meta. But usually it is just a lazy thing to do. Normally PRs know best when it is best to claim and when it is not.