Micro 635 - 09:12 (Game Over)

[DarkLightA]

Hi everyone! Will catch up now

[DarkLightA]

Cool cool, cheers.
I'll start by unvoting
UNVOTE:
so I can start on a clean slate. Not necessarily a bad vote though.

The one thing I want to know currently is:

@BTD6:

what's up with the forbidden thing? Is it a game mechanic? AFAIK, there is no limitation to speech in this setup. Why do you feel the need to specify it?

One of the examples looks positively absurd:

This is possibly a thinly-veiled attempt at AtE. (I know this for sure. I am forbidden from explaining why. Once I am allowed to explain, I will).

"It's 'possibly' an 'attempt' at AtE—oh btw, i'm certain about this"

Accountant is my pick of the day for now. Vedith came to my defense so he must be town.

I want to watch Mr Robot now so everything will have to wait.

[DarkLightA]

Care to elaborate on which rule in particular this is? Is it general or specific to you?

[DarkLightA]

Thank you

[DarkLightA]

You're certain that it's possibly AtE? Lol

----

Forget Accountant for now. GuiltyLion is scum.

From seemingly nothing (correct me if I'm wrong) he picks up on LycanFire after his post criticising him. Notably, Lycan also comments on everyone else, but Guilty seems to have no interest in that—even though he doesn't even vote for Guilty. That's a scumtell if I ever saw one.

Apart from that Accountant has struck me as scum ever since the initial L-2 vote in his second post, but I'll get to that at a later point.

Umlaut is solid town. EagerSnake is town.

BTD6 has good content, but does it in all the wrong ways.


For now let's just lynch Lycan.

[DarkLightA]

Lol eager, you're absolutely right to be confused. When I said Lycan I meant Lion.
I do find it interesting that this came from it though:

Also, I had a pocket scumread on Lycanfire for a while - see my post 128 and 172.

Also forgot to
VOTE: GuiltyLion


More to follow tomorrow.

[DarkLightA]

Lol, GuiltyLion can you try to act a bit more squeamish under pressure please?

I'm in favor of a lynch of Lion and Aristophanes (Sorry for the hard entry)
I'm against a lynch of Umlaut, EagerSnake, Vedith and not lynching
Everything else will be a case by case basis.

[DarkLightA]

I have no particular feelings on ASP either way. Seeing as he's not likely to be lynched I'd rather focus elsewhere.

[DarkLightA]

Let's wait until one of us flips scum and then you'll have your scumbuddy, how's that?

For now we need a consensus and that's why I'm saying perfectly reasonable things.

[DarkLightA]

You'll be pleased to know that it is very much intentional.

M'ladies and gents, I present to you why GuiltyLion is guilty:

I post this as part of my first substantive post.

The one thing I want to know currently is:

@BTD6:

what's up with the forbidden thing? Is it a game mechanic? AFAIK, there is no limitation to speech in this setup. Why do you feel the need to specify it?
(...)

I would argue that it's a reasonable thing to ask, after all it's being kept from the thread, yet specified. There is little reason to do such a thing on day 1.
GuiltyLion disagrees:

@DarkLightA

- I find it odd that you picked something relatively trivial to focus on as your first offering of content. What did your line of questioning tell you about BTD6's alignment, how did that help you read him?

Fair enough. A bit of a strange line to take, but I'll accept it. What follows, however is even stranger. He proceeds to pound this single point, even when I haven't done, frankly, anything related to BTD6 later:

And you ignored my question. Respond to 338

STILL haven't answered my question

(Here he seems to have forgotten he's asked another questions in 343, that suddenly isn't worthy of my answering in relation to the first question)

And of course:

This is scum. DarkLight still has not responded to my questions or points against him, he's just trying to emotionally manipulate.

Now, let me explain why this is scummy. A town player will scumhunt, ask questions, etc. A scum player will want to appear to do this. In asking his initial question, GuiltyLion accomplished this, but when I didn't answer it, he railroaded himself to pound the question continuously.

To him, the question was clearly more important than the answer

, or more precisely, me not answering the question gave him the hook he needed to label me as scum, as he has done. Him forgetting about his question in post 343 is what seals the deal for me. He's so interested in my lack of response to 333 that he doesn't realize I haven't responded to 343.

This isn't what scumhunting looks like. This is what fabrication of proof looks like.

[DarkLightA]

I would never vote you eager <3

[DarkLightA]

Let me present a reads list that contradicts everything I've said before and everyone can promptly ignore.
Spoiler alert: I make a statement on ASP and there's a twist with GuiltyLion!

A Simple Plan – No strong read either way. His reasoning overall is understandable. Weak town.

Accountant/Aristophanes – I was initially struck by the L-2 RVS vote. The sense of intentional recklessness combined with carefulness of stating “(L-2)” irks me, as it seems to be a completely contradictory. (The same feel is present in post 162, which, to me, feels like fake townishness) Attacks Umlaut’s contentless post 24 only after others have pointed it out, but then attacks hard. The rest of his/her/its contributions are plentiful but weak in content. An extreme example:

If you read the thread and still don't know why ASP and 0x40 are scummy, that implies certain things about the way you view their behavior.

In post 248, claims that ASP is scum because of reasoning posted in 59. I’m surprised that there’s so little happening in very many posts. Sorry Aristophanes. Scum.

BTD6_maker – Posts quite a bit about game mechanics rather than the game itself. A lot of seemingly half-hearted/weak positions, with toes being dipped in all sorts of water. All of this generates content without much controversy, and makes it very easy to backtrack. This may, however, be more of a personality thing than an indication of alignment. Weak scum.

eagerSnake – Lots of content here. What strikes me as town is that he seems uninterested in covering his tracks. He has many strong opinions and doesn’t seem concerned about who’s tracks he crosses. Town.

GuiltyLion – Much like eager, a very strong presence in the game. While I still don’t like this pounding of a single question into the ground, I like his response to my attack. Surprise surprise: Weak Town.

LycanFire – Not a fan of this play. Especially the start, where it’s completely devoid of content. Batch processes it now, and though the initiative is welcome, I get a bad gut feel. Weak scum.

Vedith – Reckless play, but so careless that I can’t help but have a gut townread. I do see the case people have against him. Indeed, I have seen this kind of play from scum before. I could go either way. Neutral.

Umlaut – I love his play. Unlike many of the abovementioned, his questions serve a purpose and I can see that he at least appears to have something to gain from them. Seems genuinely interested in progressing the game. Town.

That leaves:
--Scum--
Aristophanes
--W. Scum--
BTD6
--Neutral--
Vedith
--W. Town--
ASP
GuiltyLion
--Town--
EagerSnake
Umlaut

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Aristophanes

[DarkLightA]

Now come attack me for bandwagoning.

[DarkLightA]

There's more effective ways to misrep:

Vedith – (...) I can’t help but have a gut townread. (...) the case people have against him (...) I have seen (...) from scum before.

Neutral

.

[DarkLightA]

I thought I put it quite succinctly. It's based on an overall judgement of your play.
Read it again. It doesn't say vedith is town therefore he is neutral. It says "my mind's telling me town, but my BODY... my BODY keeps telling.." *hrm* sorry. It says if I had to go with gut read and gut read alone, I would say town. However, I am a wise enough person to know that my gut is not always correct.

[DarkLightA]

^ @vedith

Umlaut: I'm pleased to clear things up

[DarkLightA]

My read of you, and everyone else, is based on a holistic judgment after a readthrough of all your posts. What do you mean by your comment buttering you up?

[DarkLightA]

You are suggesting Accountant's replace-out is strategic. In particular, since this is a "strong, strong sign of scum," you are saying Accountant is a person who replaces out when caught as scum. This is a pretty serious accusation. Are you planning to report him for this? Or, as I suspect, are you just full of shit?

Accountant won't want to be confronted by me because Accountant knows that I don't let up.
Reason Snakes idea was so appealing, me gone from the game means talking their way out of it.
I'm really not full of shit, and I know that Accountant is making up an excuse here, for the reporting side, it would be brushed off with the fact of "Accountant said busy blah blah" so yeah nice try there kiddo!

Challenge me when you actually know what you are talking about.

So since Accountant is scum for sure, next agenda is, who's the buddies?
Well it's not X40 (DarkLight) or ASP, could always be GL.

GL knows I like to be buttered up

, calling me town is like giving a bunch of flowers to your other half (spoiler - It makes me suspicious as fuck)

This post?

I'm sorry to break it to you, but:
1. No, it is not because of this post. It is... hang on, I think I wrote this before... There we go: My read of you, and everyone else, is based on a holistic judgment after a readthrough of all your posts.
and
2. I'm sorry to break it to you, but I am not superhuman and cannot remember every single word used in every single post. Sometimes I imagine I can fly though, if that makes me superhuman.

[DarkLightA]

I'm sorry to break it to you, but:

1. No, it is not because of this post. It is... hang on, I think I wrote this before... There we go: My read of you, and everyone else, is based on a holistic judgment after a readthrough of all your posts.
and
2.

I'm sorry to break it to you, but

I am not superhuman and cannot remember every single word used in every single post. Sometimes I imagine I can fly though, if that makes me superhuman.

I'm not a superhuman englisher either.

[DarkLightA]

Just @ the parts I understood of what Lycan just wrote: I do not base my reads on whether I agree with the other person's reads. That is very dangerous.

[DarkLightA]

I am getting seriously worried about the approaching deadline, and I know there's not much I can do about it at this point. Currently, the people who are being voted on is a block almost as long as the player list itself.... We have to consolidate onto just a few players ASAP. I'm not exactly the best person to push any kind of wagon I'm realizing but at least I'll be here to vote on any wagons I agree with before we go to night.

Let's not lynch me.... Look out for me at 17 hrs CET. That's when I'll be done with work—about 3 hrs before the deadline. I've said all I know, and I'd rather be kept alive for now, kthx?

[DarkLightA]

Can I get an overview of who will be available when the deadline approaches tomorrow?

[DarkLightA]

--Scum--
Aristophanes
--W. Scum--
LycanFire
BTD6
--Neutral--
Vedith
--W. Town--
ASP
GuiltyLion
--Town--
EagerSnake
Umlaut

Just realized I forgot Lycan in the summary of my post. I wouldn't be opposed to a Lycan wagon.

[DarkLightA]

I'm a town PR

Don't have time now, but because of the setup this will be easy enough to verify tomorrow if I'm not the NK.
I can also provide proof. However, in doing so scum will get a good idea of the last PR. I'd rather save it until it's truly necessary.

[DarkLightA]

At this close to deadline I am willing to compromise on Guilty.

VOTE: GuiltyLion

L-1

This is an ugly ugly vote. It's not a compromise if you're voting your townread.

VOTE: BTD6_maker

[DarkLightA]

We need a hammer. Read Open 642. (Vote first, though).

Town No Lynched twice in a row (once after a huge deadline of 6 weeks) and that was perfect for me. This time, a lynch is necessary to avoid a repeat.

Somehow he's made it even worse.

[DarkLightA]

We need a hammer. Read Open 642. (Vote first, though).

Town No Lynched twice in a row (once after a huge deadline of 6 weeks) and that was perfect for me. This time, a lynch is necessary to avoid a repeat.

I've taken the opportunity to look at Open 642 — I find the scum chat especially interesting.

What BTD6 said then:

Anyway, the No Lynch today was less than ideal

(After the second no lynch)

What BTD6 says now:

Town No Lynched twice in a row (once after a huge deadline of 6 weeks) and that was perfect for me.

What BTD6 said then:

I could justify the hammer saying that I really do not want this wagon to stall and go to a No Lynch but I will wait first so as not to seem like quick hammering scum.

What BTD6 says now:

We need a hammer. Read Open 642. (Vote first, though).

(...)

This time, a lynch is necessary to avoid a repeat.

Funny that.

[DarkLightA]

A Simple Plan

[L-4] - Ümläüt

Lol

How about you join me on my wagon?

I'll be here when the deadline passes to finish things up if need be. I do think a no lynch is a shot in the foot, but I'm also not willing to rush it unnecessarily as BTD6 is suggesting.

[DarkLightA]

BTD, it seems the only way you could claim that a quickhammer of GL is favorable is, by your own logic, if you have alignment info.

[DarkLightA]

And regardless, that doesn't change the fact that you said a quickhammer was anti-town then, and now you're saying it's the best thing a town player could do.

[DarkLightA]

Umlaut will you join us on a counterwagon?

[DarkLightA]

Not necessarily. Even a purely random lynch is better overall than a No Lynch,

I've never disputed this. I'm disputing the fact that you want a *quickhammer*, and are not even willing to wait for a claim.

[DarkLightA]

Checkmate atheists

[DarkLightA]

How exciting!

[DarkLightA]

2hrs
GL is L-1
BTD6 is L-2

If you flip from GL to BTD it'll be the opposite.

[DarkLightA]

I'm not lying. People are scumreading me because I

pushed a lynch before deadline

.

Oh no no no, there are three reasons I'm voting you and that is not one of them.

[DarkLightA]

@vedith
Sure.

1. I agree that we need a lynch. Absolutely. He's pushing for a quickhammer. EagerSnake said "OK GuiltyLion claim" to which BTD responded "we need a hammer." This is despite the fact that he clearly recognizes that a quickhammer is a "scum claim" in the other game.
2. His argument against a no lynch was the other game, where he said it "was perfect for me" (as scum), while in the scum thread of the game he expressed regret at the no lynch having taken place.
3. I just completely forgot #3, give me a sec...

[DarkLightA]

BTD, you're at L-1, do you have a claim?

[DarkLightA]

Oh yeah of course, the original reason i voted:

3. He votes guiltylion as a "compromise", while the last time he expressed anything explicit about guiltylion was in this post:

Weak Town: Lycanfire, Guilty, Umlaut
Nullish: Maverick, Eagersnake, Accountant
Weak-moderate scum: ASP, 0x40

I can see where Umlaut is coming from and he seems the most Townish.

@Ninja, oh jesus. BTD will you be here for the next 15 mins so we can talk this out?

[DarkLightA]

On this clock:

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=09:12

Do you have a mafia directly clockwise or counterclockwise of your position?

[DarkLightA]

If anyone else has a PR claim, speak up nownownow.

NO.

[DarkLightA]

A scum is one hour before me on this clock.

This is in line with my role.

This means that if there is a town PR with a role at 1, 4, 7, or 10 it contradicts BTD, and 2, 5, 8 and 11 for me.

[DarkLightA]

Now you know why I didn't ask GL to claim before a hammer.

This post really really really irks me. He's saying that he (as a PR) would object to seeing two other PRs claimed. That seems completely counterintuitive.

I have to think more on it. For now I have a meeting, will be back in 15.

[DarkLightA]

I'd like a claim from GuiltyLion

Also, we don't need people claiming at L-4, kthx?

[DarkLightA]

UNVOTE:

[DarkLightA]

What are we up to on GuiltyLion?

[DarkLightA]

Let me rephrase that:

Also, we don't need people claiming townie at L-4, kthx?

(Pst, it's a reference to you umlaut!)

[DarkLightA]

VOTE: Lycanfire

Better than Guilty, though I will hammer before deadline.

[DarkLightA]

Vedith will you join us?

[DarkLightA]

I'm not lynching ASP. I think Lycan is the best bet for a counter.

[DarkLightA]

If it comes to it.
However, I'm not for Lycan being scum right now, how long? I'm staying at work late just so I don't miss the hammer here.

It's the next xx:30

[DarkLightA]

Umlaut what about Lycan?

[DarkLightA]

Guys, we're 5 active people here, 2 of whom are unwilling to vote ASP. It's not gonna go through.

[DarkLightA]

That was intense.

[DarkLightA]

What was your action last night DLA?

Before I reveal this I'd like you to guess. Who do you think I targetted last night?

(I'm serious)

[DarkLightA]

No you are not. Strike one.

Try again.

[DarkLightA]

I'm asking Aristophanes, not you.

[DarkLightA]

Alright, let's dig in.

My role is roleblocker. This means mafia either have a rolecop or a 1-shot strongman.
I'm assuming it's clear, but to drive it into the ground: BTD6 used his babysitter role as a makeshift vigilante and took Vedith down with him.

I did indeed block Aristophanes tonight. The reason I led the questioning the way I did was that I suspected that Aristophanes may be a rolecop. In this case he would receive no result and know that I blocked him.

What put me on this scent was his first post today:

What was your action last night DLA?

To me, this looks *very* suspicious. I have not yet claimed anything but a PR, and he's asking for an action claim as opposed to a role claim. Assume for a second that my rolecop theory is correct: Aristophanes knows he's been targeted, and wants to feign ignorance as far as possible. In this post, he is however revealing that he is more interested in the action than the role as far as I can tell.

Moving on, post 2:

What was your action last night DLA?

Before I reveal this I'd like you to guess. Who do you think I targetted last night?

(I'm serious)

Probably nobody, as you did mention wanting to save it.

Am I right?

Ugh.
1. There is literally no reason for me to want to save it. I had to go back to see what he was referring to, and I see how what I said (I was talking about saving my hard claim) could be misinterpreted, but this contradicts:
2. He is clearly interested and invested in this, enough that he either went back and read or remembered I'd said that (I didn't remember...). At that level of interest I would assume he is acutely aware of the setup, which reveals that there are no roles you would want to "save".

Actually, based on your reads, probably me?

*shrugs*

Alright, this is what I was going for originally. I would have preferred the option being alive of me being e.g. doctor, but it'll have to suffice.
I'm either JK or RB. Can we assume Aristophanes knows this? I think so, even though the second post leaves questions unanswered. The thing is, in this post he completely ignores the possibility of me being JK and using my role as a defensive role. You could say it's a logical conclusion from the night kill, but Aristophanes shows no signs of making this conclusion in his post.

The thing is, throughout this day I've felt like Aristophanes' posts are based around the knowledge that I had targeted him tonight. I may be wrong, but I find it awfully suspicious.

[DarkLightA]

Based on the existence of a blocking PR I say we should lynch. If we don't lynch we most likely just lose said PR tonight and don't learn anything from it, giving us no better odds tomorrow. Whereas if we do lynch, and hit scum, with luck our PR can prevent the NK and take us back out of mylo.

Apologies if this is obvious.

Yes, absolutely. Furthermore, using the RB role as a cop is dangerous as hell because it can't distinguish between a blocked kill and a no kill.

[DarkLightA]

Hahah

VOTE: A Simple Plan

[DarkLightA]

Let me point you in the direction of post 464. Let me now explain to you this awkwardly phrased post.

(...) Look out for me at

17

hrs CET. (...)

Now if you look at every 17th word of the post:

I

am getting seriously worried about the approaching deadline, and I know there's not much I

can

do about it at this point. Currently, the people who are being voted on is a

block

almost as long as the player list itself.... We have to consolidate onto just a few

players

ASAP. I'm not exactly the best person to push any kind of wagon I'm realizing but

at

least I'll be here to vote on any wagons I agree with before we go to

night

.

[DarkLightA]

Exactly right. And I happened to hit the correct role out of all of the possible ones. Lucky me.

[DarkLightA]

You know, he's making a hell of a case!

[DarkLightA]

At this point a no lunch is actually worth considering

[DarkLightA]

67%? Certainly there's 25% for all mafia roles preflip?

[DarkLightA]

67%? Certainly there's 25% for all mafia roles preflip?

Based upon the position of my roleblocker slot on the clock, no there wasn't. We're either in 6, 7, or 8. 6 yields Strongman, 7 or 8 yields role cop. With BTD's flip, our only possible positions are 6 or 7, 6 yielding strongman and 7, role cop.

Oh yeah I forgot you're the RB

[DarkLightA]

I can also provide proof. However, in doing so scum will get a good idea of the last PR. I'd rather save it until it's truly necessary.

what was the "proof" you were referring to here?

Just the crumb I'm afraid

[DarkLightA]

The point of that post was that I don't understand how DarkLight could forget that ASP is claiming roleblocker when that is the central focus of the day. I actually almost unvoted because that really bothered me, but I think there's enough evidence for DLA's claim over ASP's that I'd still rather keep my vote where it is.

Frankly, I couldn't get to sleep and responded instinctively when I checked mafiascum last night. My thinking was that initially a player who isn't a PR wouldn't know where abouts on the clock the mafia role was. I didn't think the step ahead of ASP pretending to be RB.

[DarkLightA]

I have some thinking to do.

[DarkLightA]

Reading through ISOs to find out who's scum. Eager's first post made me laugh:

VOTE: A Simple Plan

[DarkLightA]

Here's the thing: if ASP was my scumbuddy and he got placed under so much pressure so early, then I'm in a quandary. Do I bus and potentially lose a buddy early? Or do I defend them at the cost of looking bad if they flip?

And I can't help thinking that one way of getting people off ASP while dodging the quandary by avoiding taking a solid stance on them is to say "I'd vote ASP, but they'd then be L-1, plus the wagon feels way too easy".

That's why I'm so uneasy when two or three different people spit that answer out.

To clarify: it leaves room for changing reads. If ASP flips scum later, you can say "well I did scumread him... only reason I didn't vote was the L-1 thing", but if it looks like the wagon is losing steam and it's "safe" to defend him then you can go "yeah, the wagon's too easy. I want everyone off and voting someone else asap."

Actually even if ASP is town it would make sense for scum to say that - they could subtly push a mislynch without actually being on it, plus with an escape route where they get towncred for trying to "defend" the mislynchee.

Like the more I think about it the more this whole thing stinks

I don't like this.

I think Aristophanes is scum. On the other hand GuiltyLion and Umlaut could both be scum too.

However, if ASP flips rolecop, I am willing to exonerate Aristophanes. It's not a guarantee, but it's worth assuming. If he's strongman there's also questions to be asked—but they'd realize I was a blocker and therefore not use Aristophanes for the kill. In fact, they might have used the one-shot strongman on BTD.

Summary:
ASP is rolecop, I block Guilty.
ASP is strongman or goon, I block Aristophanes.

[DarkLightA]

I'm outing who I'm blocking because I think it's very valuable for town. Particularly if ASP flips PR.

[DarkLightA]

Kk bb

[DarkLightA]

Go for it.
Anything that is to be said today can be said tomorrow with extra information.

[DarkLightA]

i'm town

[DarkLightA]

Really fun game, thanks all!

Having ASP perform the NK fooled me—I've been cheering on an Umlaut lynch all day long in the dead thread. Sorry Umlaut :s
Eager you really got me with #760.. -.-

[DarkLightA]

ASP was a rolecop in a night before I had fully claimed. I assumed scum would have used the rolecop role, and killed with the goon.

Of course this seems sensible to me now; they knew I was a roleblocker by PoE and Aristophanes was the obvious target... Oh well.