Micro 637: Dem Tryouts 3 GAME OVER

[Hopkirk]

Omggggg Zzzx hiiii
VOTE: Hop
Ircher is voting for an NL cus maths.

If you know this why are you voting at all?

[Hopkirk]

Omggggg Zzzx hiiii
VOTE: Hop
Ircher is voting for an NL cus maths.

If you know this why are you voting at all?

Why does the sun shine?

Why does water hydrate us?

Why do you vote in an RVS?

,,,

Why do people answer questions intended for a specific person?

[Hopkirk]

A question that has no chance of outing any scum motivation and still seems like a huge ass bait at best is kinda shitty and should be shot at sight. Thats what I believe in.

This applies to anything people say in rvs. That doesn't justify ignoring them/the period itself.

anyway no lynching is dumb
why would I NL when I have 50/50 of hitting scum.
Tho @Rach I don't find this a slip or anything. Ircher has been theorizing from before the game that NL is the best option.

4/7 for twon, not 50/50 since you wouldn't hit yourself.

I will just UNVOTE: and use my vote after we all agree on the course of action to take.

You were advocating voting last page. What's changed?

No lynch seems optimal, but i don't see why that means we shouldn't try and scumhunt anyway. Just treat hammering as a scumtell (unless there's a really good case). Lots more information for d2 that way.

[Hopkirk]

You were advocating voting last page. What's changed?

No lynch seems optimal, but i don't see why that means we shouldn't try and scumhunt anyway. Just treat hammering as a scumtell (unless there's a really good case). Lots more information for d2 that way.

I am not saying not to scum hunt. I am saying to end the day with a no lynch after we finish our hunting and stuff. ANd the thing that changed is me doing the logic and finding our chances best without lynching.

I don't see how ending the day with a no lynch explains not voting during the rest of the day/ explains unvoting.

Also if we nl can't scum just nk

This post is extremely scummy to me. You seem to not know town has a 1 shot bp

There's definitely communication issues over 'nk' (no kill). Gameplay seems a little bit defensive rather than trying to resolve that though.

[Hopkirk]

I don't think he meant no kill when he said nk. Otherwise it doesn't make sense, why would scum no kill during the night?

My interpretation he was saying that if it's advantageous for us to no lynch, then mafia could no kill to try and force a lynch. Obviously this is overlooking a lot/ isn't logical since we have BPs and two teams.

Well honestly at this point I feel like I am tunneling too much on little information, but let me explain why I was. Before this game started I had a scum hunting theory in my head that since all the townies would have that BP ability, scum may slip up in their posting to show that they did not realize this since they may think it was just all normal VT's. Arguably a weak strategy, but when I saw that post by gameplay I thought it actually paid off! I still think his post is scummy and will keep my vote where it is, but I won't be so closed minded anymore.

This really doesn't sound like something that would have any chance of actually working. Not sure why you'd think it's likely to help with scum hunting.

You don't have much to read up on thankfully, so what are your thoughts?

Thankfully?

[Hopkirk]

Hello,

I dun really understand zzzx logic in post 33.

One simple example would be:
"

case 1b: one crossfire
3 townies
2 scum a
1 scum b
>> Lost unless we lynch in scum a

"

What does this mean? Lost as in we lost the game unless we lynch scum a day 2?

I just came back to mafiascum after a long break so i am a little off touch with the maths and stuff.

But i think if we are going to NL, (seeing the majority of the town wants to NL),

I think we should just NL without talking.

-----------------------

One simple case would be 4person NYLO. You would not try to scumhunt in 4 person as that would give scum opportunity to set up a 3 player LYLO which is beneficial to him. I think this simple case can be extrapolated to our complicated case of 8 person.

--------------------

Also, i think if we want to NL, we should all use our BP the first day as this is the only case where our NL strategy works. If we don't agree to use our BP the first day, i think we should just lynch.

I think haha, i am not sure about this.

UNVOTE: No Lynch in case my predecessor votes went thru.

Town do not have to use their BP, it is passive.
This is not clear from the town role pm.
It is explicit in the first post.
Enomis probably didn't read the first post which would mean town, or is mafia trying to give that perception. The first seems more likely.


If mafia primarily want to hit mafia then can someone advocating no talking before no lynching explain that position?

[Hopkirk]

They want to get rid of opp. scum, but they dont want a cross-kill to happen.

The more info they have, the more likely they'll think of a plan to ensure victiry.

So for mafia what are you saying is optimal n1, aiming for town or scum? This defines whether not talking is good or bad.
Plan to victory suggests you have a perspective/one is reachable in your opinion. I don't see how this works.

[Hopkirk]

They want to get rid of opp. scum, but they dont want a cross-kill to happen.

The more info they have, the more likely they'll think of a plan to ensure victiry.

So for mafia what are you saying is optimal n1, aiming for town or scum? This defines whether not talking is good or bad.
Plan to victory suggests you have a perspective/one is reachable in your opinion. I don't see how this works.

RBing 1 scum (Goon) and killing the other one.

Isn't that also a good outcome for town? Plus it seems unlikely.

scum already have info its town that needs info

that is basic mafia 101

scum know they are scum. The dont know who is town & who is opp. scum.

I like this post, and subsequently don't like the post by Rach within the quote. I believe Ircher is town for this, although I do disagree with him about ending the day early.

I don't see how that gives you an Ircher read. His posts look null by intent.

Why does 4 force a no lynch?

[Hopkirk]

@Hop --> The cross-kill is more favorable to town.

The worst case scenario for town is mafia don't crosskill at all. Isn't that most likely when mafia pick randomly?

[Hopkirk]

@Hop --> The cross-kill is more favorable to town.

The worst case scenario for town is mafia don't crosskill at all. Isn't that most likely when mafia pick randomly?

No, worst case is lynching a BP.

Which doesn't happen from discussion, but from a lynch. I'm arguing that we should try and form reads which helps us find mafia, and helps mafia find mafia which they would then be more likely to hit than town.


Technically 'B' but without lynching a scummy person.

[Hopkirk]

Ready to move onto night too. Have some reads, but am losing interest a bit.

[Hopkirk]

Tenshii are ircher probably mafia based on poe.

VOTE: Tenshii

[Hopkirk]

U need to do something other than that. At Ircher have a sense of presence and is actively pushing.

If by presence you mean more posts then yes I agree. If you're comparing the content then I'd say we're roughly the same.

Ur math does not check out. Its too simple. If u support Ircher, one scum dieing is not good, u need two. If no one dies u waste one day and 2bp uses. Mind as well we take the 50% chance and lynch?

My math was kind of a jab to everyone's math of how today is a 50% chance to lynch scum therefore we should lynch today. In a way though, if lynching today for the 50/50 is acceptable, then my math for NL'ing also is.

Where did you get a double cross kill being necessary?

If no one dies, then it's effectively D1. Not a wasted day. Arguably 2bp uses is wasted, but the risk of wasting comes with the chance of being rewarded with the crosskill(s). Also if 2bp uses are wasted, we still have those dank odds of it being a 50/50 scum lynch. And I think if 2bp uses are wasted, scum will (try to) target each other N2. So those 2bps should live anyways.

I still think lynching a BP today is really bad. So let's just go to night. The way I see it, today is mylo. Also tomorrow might be mylo too, which is pretty funny to think about.

Never adresses the argument over content to scumhunt on. Tries to just hide behind maths.

Tries to defend his lack of content (saying effectively 'hey i have as much as x')... despite holding a position that there should be

no

content. If he legitimiately thought no lynch without speaking was optimal then i'd expect him to defend the position explicitly instead of trying to defend against it. Seems like scum wanting the no lynch.

Tenshii are ircher probably mafia based on poe.

VOTE: Tenshii

Nice poe to 2 when there's 3 left.

VOTE: Hopkirk

LMAO My bad for pushing optimal strategy.

Also how do you guys not find Hopkirk's poe even a little bit sus?

And fwiw Rach is probably town considering she was in a spot to get a free hammer on me.

I'm not sure if tensh thought i didn't realize there's more than 2 scum left. This isn't a logical assumption to make, so is a poor justification for a vote. Looks to be trying to justify a vote rather than voting from legitimate belief.

The free hammer makes no sense. What if Rach is on the team with one scum left? Why would someone quickhammer without a partner? This probably tells us that Tenshii is on the scumteam with 2 left.

Also --> Dont you even dare say that; if anyone was pushing for no lynch, it was me, myself, and I.

I was supporting you? Better?

Scum probably won't quick hammer so quickly in day 2. I am curious how u rule her out so quickly.
I didn't read too much into that poe post. How is that suspect? He just town read the rest and thought 2 person scummy by default.

Also, is Hopkirk your only scum read and is that your only reason?

You were literally inviting her to vote me. She could've been like "Oh yeah I agree Tenshii is scum" and then maybe fabricate a reason or two of her own real quick and hammer it. In retrospect, she might've not been able to get away with it that easily considering she would've had to abandon her main scumread and flip it onto a wagon her scumread was voting on.

So he townreads 4 (not even nullreading one) and then leaves 2 left for scum. Even though there is 3 scum left. And you dont find that sus??? And yes atm he's my only sr.

Where did i say there wasn't nulls, or groups where i think 1 of 2 is scum? This would have been my assumption. My thinking was that i have at least some reason to think the other players are town, and no reason to think you/Ircher was. Just means i should lynch the likely scum before the group of multiple town with one scum in it.

To expand, now (and then actually) I think the 3 mafia are Ircher, Tenshii, and one out of Zzzx/Gameplay.

Oh and I think scum would quick hammer here depending on the player and what team they were on.

Comes a little late. Seems like a potential realization of a slip.

General Q: I assume it's better to try and kill scum from the 2 scum scumteam. Is this correct?

[Hopkirk]

If that town read on rach is based on her not quick hammering, explain why she would quick hammer as scum.

I don't think she's scum of 1. So if she's scum, any lynch besides her/her teammate is good for her.

Where did i say there wasn't nulls, or groups where i think 1 of 2 is scum? This would have been my assumption. My thinking was that i have at least some reason to think the other players are town, and no reason to think you/Ircher was. Just means i should lynch the likely scum before the group of multiple town with one scum in it.

Any null would've been your third scumread. More than one null wouldn't complete a PoE, because at that point you'd have 4 potential slots. And now you're trying to argue that you were just stating likely reads instead of PoE.

To expand, now (and then actually) I think the 3 mafia are Ircher, Tenshii, and one out of Zzzx/Gameplay.

So you're scumreading me yes? Then why don't you just hammer me? Sus again.

Comes a little late. Seems like a potential realization of a slip.

Sure. Did you actually find a slip? (ofc, you didn't) Because if you did find a slip, then I imagine you would've actually stated it to support your case.

1.) I literally said it was a case of a, b, c/d. You didn't read my post.
2.) Hm, why can't the first person to vote you hammer you? That's such a tricky question. I can't work this out at all. You haven't read my posts.
3.) Yes, i explicitly stated what it was. You didn't read my post.

VOTE: Hopkirk

Never adresses the argument over content to scumhunt on. Tries to just hide behind maths.

Tries to defend his lack of content (saying effectively 'hey i have as much as x')... despite holding a position that there should be no content. If he legitimiately thought no lynch without speaking was optimal then i'd expect him to defend the position explicitly instead of trying to defend against it. Seems like scum wanting the no lynch.

Blatantly twisting my words.

Dismissing like that says a lot about your alignment.


And to top it all off we have a vote on me.
4 responses to what i've said.
2 of the criticims are clearly false based on reading my posts. Either he is trying to misrepresent, or decided to vote someone, but decided not to read their posts but respond anyway. Either is scum. One is bad scum.
1 of them is something that is undeniably untrue without even reading anything.
1 of them is just avoiding.

Need all town to lynch unfortunately.

[Hopkirk]

Yap, Tenshii is more towny now,

I wanna vote Ircher but that makes a 3-3 wagon split with hop as hammer.

I don't see why kirk is suddenly so scummy though. Anyone mind enlightening me?

Kirk isn't scummy, it's just the 3 mafia voting me for finding two of them and one of their partners.

[Hopkirk]

Town:
gameplay, tenshii, rach

in that order.

Ircher, ZZZX, Hopkirk as mafia you're saying?

[Hopkirk]

I wanna vote Ircher but that makes a 3-3 wagon split with hop as hammer.

It would've been a 3-3 split between Ircher/Kirk. Why wouldn't you make it 3-3? It's not like Kirk would self hammer?

If you're being serious here then my read on you is probably wrong...

Ircher did a lot of quoting just to say general things that don't respond to any points.

[Hopkirk]

Also Tenshii still ignoring all my posts.

[Hopkirk]

If you're being serious here then my read on you is probably wrong...

Wdym? And I ignored you because I already made my point

So when i pointed out your responses were either answered by stuff in my post/previous posts by the mod, that didn't change anything? Either you ignored the post, or your mind changed when you realized their was tangible evidence they were wrong. The second hasn't occured, hence you ignored.

What i mean is that if there are 3 votes on me and 3 votes on ircher then you pointing out 'hop wouldn't hammer himself' makes no sense as obviously enomis meant i'd hammer ircher...

[Hopkirk]

Because not understanding something so simple makes your previous play come from town as well as/instead of scum.

Response not changing anything when pointing out flaws including with mod confirmed info. Okay sure.

[Hopkirk]

I didn't vote because I effectively have the hammer and i didn't want the day to end so fast. But guess there isn't much point with the speed this game is going.

Ircher seems to have gave up defending himself.

I would like to vote ircher but hopkirk's latest post irks me.

@kirk:

If you're being serious here then my read on you is probably wrong...

Ircher did a lot of quoting just to say general things that don't respond to any points.

What this mean. how does this change your read on her.

If they can misunderstand things that simple then other scummy looking things might just be VI. Probably still mafia though.
But as not enough people agree...

VOTE: Ircher

Still mafia, but easier to lynch mafia.

[Hopkirk]

Uhhhh... What?

--------------------------------------

Gameplay is your scumread on hop strong? Like i would rather lynch ircher today, he like gave up defending.

lf;nkjladsnkl;NASKLDNMalksnmAJKLDNASJLDNSA

I want to be involved in this game but i can't get into it. This game is like so slooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow.

meee

To get things going tho after killing convo D1, I will join enomis on the Tenshii wagon for pressure reasons. You remain one of my scumreads though.

VOTE: Tenshi

L-1

I like your Kirk case better, but enomis is my top townread right now, so I thought pressuring you might be a good line of attack.

No really ircher is seriously bad. Either bad townplay or some bold scumplay but I really lean towards the first.

Tenshii are ircher probably mafia based on poe.

VOTE: Tenshii

Ye looking back at this it really resembles a slip.

243 gives me a really bad feeling on so many levels

Tenshi vs Hop still reminds me of town v scum. Tenshi is genuine and actually logical Hop is making arguments out of thin air, being nitpicky and whatnot.

Some isos now:
Hop:
The only one ( one of the few?) who gave their opinion on me vs Java.
Lots of question asking and pressure but no follow up.
Really finding him fake.
Java:
Just the first few posts and their tone makes me doubt that Rach is with Java.

scum already have info its town that needs info

that is basic mafia 101

scum know they are scum. The dont know who is town & who is opp. scum.

I like this post, and subsequently don't like the post by Rach within the quote. I believe Ircher is town for this, although I do disagree with him about ending the day early.

makes me feel like ircher isn't with java as well
No more info on other players so ZZX/Hop but way more leaning on Hop

tldr: its up to you enomis but imo Hop needs the hammer more

Don't know what that what is directed at.

How is it a slip?
(7 players, 1 town, 2 townreads, 2 unsure, 2 slightly scum reads becomes 2 scumreads). Why are you saying i didn't include number 3?
What levels?
What is nitpicky?
Why is giving an opinion on you vs java bad?
Why is asking questions and not voting when i advocated no lynching bad? I clearly said D1 should be so we have reads before night. D2 i had my reads.
What is fake?

Literally nothing substantive.
Also Ircher/ Tenshii don't even try to interact with me today. Either scum or VIs who can't play mafia.
Sure Ircher and gameplay are mafia. Tenshii is very likely (above 80%) mafia.

[Hopkirk]

Gameplay/Tenshii seems more likely than Gameplay/Ircher.

[Hopkirk]

To clarify on what i think enomis is asking.

I wanna vote Ircher but that makes a 3-3 wagon split with hop as hammer.

It would've been a 3-3 split between Ircher/Kirk. Why wouldn't you make it 3-3? It's not like Kirk would self hammer?

At this point it was:
Hopkirk - Tenshii, gameplay506, Ircher
Ircher - RachMarie, ZZZX
Tenshii - Hopkirk, enomis

Tenshii doesn't seem to understand why enomis switching his vote onto Ircher would give Hopkirk a chance to hammer.
This is simple to understand, so Tenshii's bad prior play could be explained by being a VI rather than by being scum.

An addition i just noticed: I got this response.

Your response didn't change anything.

And yeah my point being if Enomis is okay with voting Ircher, then why should he be scared of Hopkirk hammering Ircher? And how did this change your read on me?

'It would've been a 3-3 split between Ircher/Kirk. Why wouldn't you make it 3-3? It's not like Kirk would self hammer?'
V.s.
'if Enomis is okay with voting Ircher, then why should he be scared of Hopkirk hammering Ircher'

Actually this makes sense if that's what he meant, but it's not how i interpreted it because he didn't say that point initially.
Having noticed that scum is more likely than VI.

[Hopkirk]

To clarify what i disliked: Because the first part doesn't include anything about Enomis, but sounds more like he thinks Hop is voting Ircher while Tenshii should know that i wasn't based on his omgus earlier.

[Hopkirk]

Gameplay/Tenshii seems more likely than Gameplay/Ircher.

Said hop and still kept his vote on ircher
Admit it you are desperate

?
Lynching mafia is good
Town being lynched when town can afford maybe one mislynch is bad.
Achievable mafia lynch is better than going for a currently unachiveable lynch and getting lynched.

Why would i switch my vote?
Why did you ignore my other posts asking about your posts?

Actually i don't care about those answers. No point having a back and forth with a mafia who has explicitly demonstrated he isn't going to respond.
Game is as solved as it can get at this point.

[Hopkirk]

Didn't vote, said I would oppose lynch many times. Didn't advocate no talking.

Sure on all three... that post is who is likely on one team (and implicitly who is with Java.)

[Hopkirk]

5 player two mafia is easy?
Probably tenshii + gameplay.

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: gameplay

No point extending things.

[Hopkirk]

unvote

until not phone posting.

[Hopkirk]

At another look through it seems like most likely is still G/T. Gameplay chainsawing me to defend tenshii makes that pair seem likely, and gameplay's 'responses' to me don't even slightly demonstrate town motivation (especially 284)- not even trying to interact/develop reads, just wants the lynch, probably defending partner. Tenshii was just a omgus that convinced one town.

VOTE: Gameplay

Could be gameplay/zzzx but that's still got gameplay in it and seems less likely.

[Hopkirk]

Also since you're obviously wanting to lynch me town loses if you are town so why not vote.

[Hopkirk]

'that opportunistic vote': Doesn't describe it at all... Opportunist after i said he was one of my three scumreads>

'your over confidence today.': Have you read your posts? You're not trying to sort people.

[Hopkirk]

At this point it’s very safe to say its gameplay/Tenshii. If not gameplay mafia could hammer either of us. If not tenshii then gameplay’s partner could vote me and Tenshii would likely hammer.

It was opportunistic because it just didn't make sense for you to vote Ircher.
Like you emphasize on how bad a town mislynch will result (in a loss basically), then you say that you are way more sure on me/tenshi as scum and you end up voting ircher without even remotely trying to push me/tenshi. And if that wasn't bad enough you come today and call me scum with tenshi while reviewing that your arguments for that are that I was defending him. And then you get even deeper into shit and dare to call

me

out on not trying to sort people out. And you have the guts to go for a vote in Mylo in your first post. Like nah.
Sorry but this level of bs can't come from town
VOTE: Hop

Problems with this post:
1.) 'Without remotly trying to push'- so you're ignoring that i tried to push on tenshii? Then i was at l1 and town was moving away from tenshii, and that nobody seemed capable of seeing tenshii was mafia or reading my case/responding to it? I clearly said i was moving to an equal scumread- see most of yesterday where i said i had found all 3 scum- not a 'lesser' one like you're trying to present here.
2.) 'you say that you are way more sure on me/tenshi as scum'. Gameplay said this before while quoting a post that said i thought gameplay/tenshi was one scumteam and java/ircher was the other. I clarified this for him yet he's sticking to it. Unless you think gameplay has severe memory problems then this is scum motivated.
3.) You really aren't trying to sort anyone. You're saying i'm mafia then provide justification so weak that anyone reading the thread can instantly tell it's false. Tenshii is doing exactly the same.

Actually thinking about it you/tensh would make a lot of sense given how wishy washy you were on him. He was the first one you went after yesterday, then miraculously jumped off him after being so sold on the idea that he was scum to go for the mislynch and even today you are going for me and not him despite having little arguments on mescum compared to tenshi with who you interacted so much.

'Wishy washy' doesn't even make sense in the context.
It's 'miraculous' to leave a lynch that isn't viable because enough town people have said they don't want it- and the mafia don't want it either- and instead try to lynch a different mafia?
'So sold on the idea he was scum'- ignores literally everything i said yesterday in order to pretend i didn't say three people were all mafia and i'd settle for a lynch of any of them. It sounds like he seriously thinks the correct play for town (on l-1 due to the mafia) is to push really hard for a lynch that isn't possible at that point and get lynched themselves, as opposed to lynching another scum first...
None of this reflects a narrative town reading the thread would create.

[Hopkirk]

I am too lazy to quote and talk much and I've never been good with cases only reads so short story:
His vote on Ircher is opportunistic af. He interacted a lot with tenshi basically called him scum but then backed out when the pressure got off tenshi and he went onto ircher ( I already explained why it was such a bad vote go back and read).
His confidence in Mylo today given that he has borderline none arguments only association with tenshi which you yourself can guess why its so bad.
Over defensive, overreacting, lots of fake scumhunting and question asking which goes nowhere.

Already demonstarted opportunist is false. I did this before, you chose not to respond. This is clear for all to see.
Confidence because your play couldn't possibly come from town. Town need to find information and form reads. If you were town you'd respond instead of ignoring/misrepresnting/misquoting/strawmanning posts. This meant you couldn't be town. Now i know for sure.
Over defensive? No, i found scum. Overreacting? What to scum? Fakescumhunting? Not applicable as i've found scum. Question that go nowhere? I found the scum...

Literally just reading my posts, then looking how gameplay/Tenshii both a.) reacted, and b.) tried to misrepresent those posts (then stuck to that) should solve this game. There's no way town reading this could see town motivation from gameplay, or fall for it.

Lynch Gameplay or tenshii (picking gameplay first, but it doesn't matter), then the other. Easy, finish the game. Isn't difficult.

[Hopkirk]

So is Rach + ZZZX confirmed to not be a team because if they were a team they would both hammer? Idk if this logic applies to forum mafia or not because people log on at different times.

They could just vote me with a meh reason and then, based on yesterday, you'd hammer at some point. Not doing that suggests to me that both are town.

[Hopkirk]

talk to me about tenshii, zzk why her over hopkirk who was the counter wagon to Ircher yesterday.

still kind of crazy around here, on top of having to go to wound care today, my fridge died which means in addition to catching up on work stuffs, catching up on usual housework, I have to clean out and throw away a bunch of spoiled food uggh

I wasn't a counterwagon to ircher, i was voted (by two mafia it seems) after attacking Tenshii (before ircher got as many votes).

[Hopkirk]

Your wild conclusions and arguments never fail to amaze me

And yet my logic is flawless.

[Hopkirk]

Not going to bother interacting with Tenshii/Gameplay any further. Confirmed scum to me at this point.
Waiting on town to reread.

[Hopkirk]

I don't. They are both exactly the same chance of being scum from my perspective (100% barring you/zzzx having played pointless and potentially gamethrowing games).

[Hopkirk]

Funny gameplay doesn't want to find my partner. He has incentive to try and interact with me (and directly doesn't when i tried before).

[Hopkirk]

Funny gameplay doesn't want to find my partner. He has incentive to try and interact with me (and directly doesn't when i tried before).

I already said it has to tenshi based on your actions towards him so sorry hop thats invalid
Also I really like your arguments on mescum
What were they again? Basically defending tenshi (association) and just trying to nitpick the fuk.out of.my posts on you. Oh and the "not trying to read people" which used in this situation applies to everybody o well.

Please, quote exactly where you said it 'has to be tenshii'.
Nah, that's not my arguments. Try reading the posts i make them in. Not wasting time restating them as you wouldn't read what i said now when you haven't already.

[Hopkirk]

Actually thinking about it you/tensh would make a lot of sense given how wishy washy you were on him. He was the first one you went after yesterday, then miraculously jumped off him after being so sold on the idea that he was scum to go for the mislynch and even today you are going for me and not him despite having little arguments on mescum compared to tenshi with who you interacted so much.

Exactly. You say 'make a lot of sense' which is very different to 'has to be', then provide no further follow up on Tenshii.

[Hopkirk]

If you don't want more time this is fine. Order doesn't matter.

VOTE: Tenshii

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: hopkirk

because getting someone to l-1 in lylo without thinking is jsut something scum would do. also rapid votes are wtf...?

I literally know he is scum. There has been thinking.

[Hopkirk]

As for is confirmed mafia this proves zzzx is town btw.

[Hopkirk]

A few things to go through.

From my perspective this is the only possible scumteam
G+T

Impossible from my perspective

H+T
H+R (impossible from R’s perspective too.)

Impossible from all perspectives

Z+G= Z hammers T
Z+H= Z hammers T
Z+R= Z/R hammers T
Z+T= Plenty of opportunity for one to vote either H/G
T+R= Plenty of opportunity for one to vote either H/G
G+R= Impossible as G could hammer based on last visit time
H+G= Impossible as G could hammer based on last visit time

So what everyone knows/can assume personally.

1.) I know the scumteam for sure.
2.) Gameplay, if town, would know I am scum. My partner would be between Rach/Tenshii.
3.) Tenshii, if town, would know the scumteam is Hopkirk and Rach. He is not voting for either. This is very strong evidence against Rach as scum and hence for Tenshii.
4.) ZZZX knows either Tenshii/Rach are scum, and Hop/Game are scum. The above strongly suggests Tenshii is scum.
5.) From Rach’s perspective there are two possible scumteams, both of which contain Tenshii.
Also ZZZX is confirmed innocent for literally everyone.

[Hopkirk]

Initial reason i saw Gameplay as Tenshii partner. More to follow. This is mainly for a narrative so there'll be more analysis later (though not necessarily right now).

Bout tenshi: His iso is the prime example of why I dislike this whole NL conversation. It is unproductive, isn't alignment indicative one bit and just gives the opportunity for scum to make posts about it just to seem active. So tenshi is pretty much nullscum only because of the fact that his posts have only been focused on that.
Despite that I don't see anything AI.

Her ISO doesn't look too good. Looks like mafia trying to blend in and add some "discussion" while really having nothing.

O goodie so we are actually on the same page bout tenshi.

Only important point is Gameplay gives a light scumread on Tenshii.
Strange that he doesn't vote Tenshii d1- especially since today he said he thought Tenshii was my partner (one reason for it was) because i didn't pressure him.

To get things going tho after killing convo D1, I will join enomis on the Tenshii wagon for pressure reasons. You remain one of my scumreads though.

VOTE: Tenshi

L-1

This is scum. Like cmon
Also Ircher has been pretty bad day 1, he is pretty bad today making excuses about his scumhunting and whatnot.
Enomis and rach are town so not voting there.
Tenshii is better compared to Ircher so not voting there as well. His d1 was almost as bad as his but now he gives off a genuine feel.
Hop and zzx I don't like. Still not an Ircher i dont like.
Tldr: lynch ircher

Note- Gameplay voted Tenshii before Ircher voted Tenshii so this isn't a chainsaw.
Reasons for quoting: 1.) Mention of Tenshii, 2.) Showing reads. Slight townread now on Tenshii (little interaction/pressure, but this is a different point). Scumread on Hopkirk. This scumread wasn't there until i voted Tenshii. Of 3 scumreads 2 are on Ircher/Hop- both of us were voting tenshii.

U need to do something other than that. At Ircher have a sense of presence and is actively pushing.

If by presence you mean more posts then yes I agree. If you're comparing the content then I'd say we're roughly the same.

Ur math does not check out. Its too simple. If u support Ircher, one scum dieing is not good, u need two. If no one dies u waste one day and 2bp uses. Mind as well we take the 50% chance and lynch?

My math was kind of a jab to everyone's math of how today is a 50% chance to lynch scum therefore we should lynch today. In a way though, if lynching today for the 50/50 is acceptable, then my math for NL'ing also is.

Where did you get a double cross kill being necessary?

If no one dies, then it's effectively D1. Not a wasted day. Arguably 2bp uses is wasted, but the risk of wasting comes with the chance of being rewarded with the crosskill(s). Also if 2bp uses are wasted, we still have those dank odds of it being a 50/50 scum lynch. And I think if 2bp uses are wasted, scum will (try to) target each other N2. So those 2bps should live anyways.

I still think lynching a BP today is really bad. So let's just go to night. The way I see it, today is mylo. Also tomorrow might be mylo too, which is pretty funny to think about.

Never adresses the argument over content to scumhunt on. Tries to just hide behind maths.

Tries to defend his lack of content (saying effectively 'hey i have as much as x')... despite holding a position that there should be

no

content. If he legitimiately thought no lynch without speaking was optimal then i'd expect him to defend the position explicitly instead of trying to defend against it. Seems like scum wanting the no lynch.

Tenshii are ircher probably mafia based on poe.

VOTE: Tenshii

Nice poe to 2 when there's 3 left.

VOTE: Hopkirk

LMAO My bad for pushing optimal strategy.

Also how do you guys not find Hopkirk's poe even a little bit sus?

And fwiw Rach is probably town considering she was in a spot to get a free hammer on me.

I'm not sure if tensh thought i didn't realize there's more than 2 scum left. This isn't a logical assumption to make, so is a poor justification for a vote. Looks to be trying to justify a vote rather than voting from legitimate belief.

The free hammer makes no sense. What if Rach is on the team with one scum left? Why would someone quickhammer without a partner? This probably tells us that Tenshii is on the scumteam with 2 left.

Also --> Dont you even dare say that; if anyone was pushing for no lynch, it was me, myself, and I.

I was supporting you? Better?

Scum probably won't quick hammer so quickly in day 2. I am curious how u rule her out so quickly.
I didn't read too much into that poe post. How is that suspect? He just town read the rest and thought 2 person scummy by default.

Also, is Hopkirk your only scum read and is that your only reason?

You were literally inviting her to vote me. She could've been like "Oh yeah I agree Tenshii is scum" and then maybe fabricate a reason or two of her own real quick and hammer it. In retrospect, she might've not been able to get away with it that easily considering she would've had to abandon her main scumread and flip it onto a wagon her scumread was voting on.

So he townreads 4 (not even nullreading one) and then leaves 2 left for scum. Even though there is 3 scum left. And you dont find that sus??? And yes atm he's my only sr.

Where did i say there wasn't nulls, or groups where i think 1 of 2 is scum? This would have been my assumption. My thinking was that i have at least some reason to think the other players are town, and no reason to think you/Ircher was. Just means i should lynch the likely scum before the group of multiple town with one scum in it.

To expand, now (and then actually) I think the 3 mafia are Ircher, Tenshii, and one out of Zzzx/Gameplay.

Oh and I think scum would quick hammer here depending on the player and what team they were on.

Comes a little late. Seems like a potential realization of a slip.

General Q: I assume it's better to try and kill scum from the 2 scum scumteam. Is this correct?

I make case on Tenshii.

actually guys wanna swing for hop?

Gameplay apparently doesn't like me saying mafia is Tenshii+Him/ZZZX+Ircher then voting Tenshii.

If that town read on rach is based on her not quick hammering, explain why she would quick hammer as scum.

I don't think she's scum of 1. So if she's scum, any lynch besides her/her teammate is good for her.

Where did i say there wasn't nulls, or groups where i think 1 of 2 is scum? This would have been my assumption. My thinking was that i have at least some reason to think the other players are town, and no reason to think you/Ircher was. Just means i should lynch the likely scum before the group of multiple town with one scum in it.

Any null would've been your third scumread. More than one null wouldn't complete a PoE, because at that point you'd have 4 potential slots. And now you're trying to argue that you were just stating likely reads instead of PoE.

To expand, now (and then actually) I think the 3 mafia are Ircher, Tenshii, and one out of Zzzx/Gameplay.

So you're scumreading me yes? Then why don't you just hammer me? Sus again.

Comes a little late. Seems like a potential realization of a slip.

Sure. Did you actually find a slip? (ofc, you didn't) Because if you did find a slip, then I imagine you would've actually stated it to support your case.

VOTE: Hopkirk

Next post is by Tenshii. Votes me.

Ye tenshi isnt scum
Still not sure about ircher but I want Hop more now
VOTE: Hop

Unsure why Tenshii read and Ircher read which he seemed sure on changed.
Gameplay changes his vote to me. Appears to be trying to discredit me. Kind of has to as i've made a case on his partner and neither accepting nor ignoring it is viable for him. This is where i decided it was gameplay not ZZZX.
Third vote is by Ircher without reason. At that point i conclude I+G+T as the three scum. I was wrong. It seems like Ircher was just on both the T/H wagons to survive.

[Hopkirk]

Idk why the spoiler tags failed.
Note for psot before last- Some (quite a few) of those combinations have only been proven impossible to all players after ZZZX’s last posts and/or Rach’s vote on Tenshii.

No need to make a case on Tenshii as Me+Rach know he’s scum and gameplay has no option but to bus when he next comes online.
Note: Gameplay was online at 11pm GMT last night (about 13 hours ago). He had the opportunity to hammer Tenshii at this point- which he should have based on his reads and what he said earlier- but didn’t. Should be easy enough to make a bare vote even if on phone or logged in and on site anywhere. Unless he misclicked on a bookmark or something similar this is some evidence for the team.


All Tenshii’s mentions of Gameplay:
233- Only mention here is doesn’t think G is with java. No explanation why.
Doesn’t mention him while attacking me.
326- Asks ZZZX why he thinks gameplay is scummier than Hopkirk.
Very recent two
360- Asks why Me/Gameplay aren’t voting him.
363- Irrelevant mention.

In Tenshii’s iso there’s only one mention of gameplay. Tenshii doesn’t try and interact at any point/ doesn’t ask gameplay anything/respond to gameplay’s slight scumread. Not even a mention while attacking me or voting me with gameplay/ a comment on gameplay’s vote or anything.

Seems very much like a new scum ignoring a partner.

[Hopkirk]

Interactions between me/Tenshii
- Fighting when it would be highly sub optimal for us to do so.
- I voted him d2. When Ircher put Tenshii on L-1 I didn’t remove my vote but instead made a good case on him and continued.
- Only removed my vote when it was clear that a.) At least 2 mafia were voting me, b.) The wagon on Tenshii wasn’t happening because c.) Town didn’t feel like reading/commenting on my case/not being lazy in general, d.) I was on L-1, and e.) The alternative lynch (to me, if Ircher wasn’t lynched then I would have been at that point) was also one of my three (Exact) scumreads.

Which pairing looks more likely? This shouldn't be a hard question unless you ignore my posts as instead just look at how gameplay tries to frame them.

Nightkills- doesn't tell us much really
-Java who had a public arguemnt with gameplay. This is basically meaningless though because mafia would want to aim for other mafia.
-Enomis who attacked Tenshii. This suggests Tenshii but not gameplay.
Hence nightkills tell us nothing about gameplay.


Last and biggest job is going through gameplay and doing analysis/comparisons. I'm taking a break before doing this, might be this afternoon, could not be until tomorrow.

[Hopkirk]

As for is confirmed mafia this proves zzzx is town btw.

Final point before lunch: This was phone posting a bit after waking up.
'as for is confirmed mafia'
should read 'as (Ten/Tenshii) is confirmed mafia (.) - (continutation from prior posts). [New sentence]- This proves ZZZX is town btw (As shown now).

[Hopkirk]

A few days i guess then.
Could you quickly address why you didn't hammer last night?

[Hopkirk]

What did you mean by wait then?
Side question- Did you hammer without reading the posts me and zzzx made (the only posts i think since your last one i think).

[Hopkirk]

Can you either answer my questions or confirm you aren't going to (directly or by posting without replying to this).
Now it's easy to 100% clear Rach.

Possibilities:
1.) Gameplay/Tenshii
2.) 1 or 2 of ZZZX/Rach are mafia and are intentionally not hammering town. If this is the case then can we just end the game now instead of wasting time because it isn't possible for either of them to lose.

[Hopkirk]

Could have won a lot earlier without risk.

[Hopkirk]

Thread got locked the same time i realize that you still had a visit of 11. I assume your computer was still on or something.

[Hopkirk]

Good job on the Tenshii buddying anyway.