Micro 633: Marvel Dual Universes uPick - Game over!

[Clumsy]

Time to make a clumsy vote...

VOTE: Clumsy

(See what I did there?)

So original. XD

VOTE: Mcmenno

D&D tonight, will be able to actually post tomorrow.

[Clumsy]

I will be home a little bit later so I might write more then, but for the moment I'm going to be using voice to text on my way home. Please forgive any typos or weird sentence structures, this isn't going to be perfect. I was in the DC dual Universe game, and I was scum and wonders and town in the other. I want a scum Earth one, and losses town on Earth too, making the game a double scum victory. I think what the key thing to winning as town and that game was comparing how people acted in Earth one and how they acted in her too and how they were different and how they were the same. Instead of having to look at people's other games that they played in the past for how they usually act, you had it right there in the same game with potentially two different roles. At the same time, when you love somebody, you could still talk to them on the other Earth and get their leads from there. I think that was something that was vastly underused in the other game. I feel like things were a bit rushed, and people didn't follow up on confirm towns reads when we crossed paths. I do not think that no lynching is a viable option here, because it doesn't actually move the game forward for town. Yes, we would stay on the same Earth, but if we don't actively Lynch and try to get things done, we're just going to lose anyway. So the issue is that giving up a lunch for the day does not mean that we will have an upper hand.

I think the best way to treat this game from a strategic perspective is to treat it as the same game just rewrote on Earth too and played at the same time is at 1. The dualers mechanic is a way around the normal site and game rules of once a person is dead, they can no longer communicate with us. And this game they can. The fact that the people who are dead can talk to a still is a major Boon for town, so miss lynching is not as bad as it is in a normal game. If we missed lunch somebody on Earth one, we now know that they are town in Earth one. On earth to we can still ask them questions and reads about Earth one. They can still talk about Earth one even though they are dead! It is a major Boon because they will be confirmed town to us on Earth too and provide us with much-needed information or reads, even telling us what result they got off of their abilities before they died on the other earth. That is extremely powerful in this game, and it needs to be utilized. Not only are we giving up our AZ town by not living, we also don't have those confirm town to work with which could then talk to us immediately on Earth 2. Definitely do not think that No lynching is an option.

Again, sorry for any typos from voice to text, I do not want to be distracted from the road. I will clarify on any typos that this is made when I get home.

[Clumsy]

Wow that was worse than I thought it would be. Just wanted to get my train of thought out while I had it.

Spoiler: Translated

I will be home a little bit later so I might write more then, but for the moment I'm going to be using voice to text on my way home. Please forgive any typos or weird sentence structures, this isn't going to be perfect. I was in the DC dual Universe game, and I was scum on one earth and town in the other. I won as scum on Earth one, and lost as town on Earth two, making the game a double scum victory. I think what the key thing to winning as town in that game was comparing how people acted in Earth one and how they acted in earth two and how they were different and how they were the same. Instead of having to look at people's other games that they played in the past for how they usually act, you had it right there in the same game with potentially two different roles. At the same time, when you lynch somebody, you could still talk to them on the other Earth and get their reads from there. I think that was something that was vastly underused in the other game. I feel like things were a bit rushed, and people didn't follow up on confirmed towns' reads when we crossed earths. I do not think that no lynching is a viable option here, because it doesn't actually move the game forward for town. Yes, we would stay on the same Earth, but if we don't actively Lynch and try to get things done, we're just going to lose anyway. So the issue is that giving up a lynch for the day does not mean that we will have an upper hand.

I think the best way to treat this game from a strategic perspective is to treat it as the same game just rewrolled on Earth two and played at the same time as Earth one. The dual earth mechanic is a way around the normal site and game rules of once a person is dead, they can no longer communicate with us. In this game they can. The fact that the people who are dead can talk to a still talk is a major boon for town, so mislynching is not as bad as it is in a normal game. If we mislynched somebody on Earth one, we now know that they are town in Earth one. On Earth two we can still ask them questions and reads about Earth one. They can still talk about Earth one even though they are dead! This is huge. It is a major boon because they will be confirmed town to us on Earth two and provide us with much-needed information or reads, even telling us what result they got off of their abilities before they died on the other earth. That is extremely powerful in this game, and it needs to be utilized. Not only are we giving up our power as town by not lynching, we also don't have those confirmed town to work with which could then talk to us immediately on Earth 2. Definitely do not think that no lynching is an option.

Again, sorry for any typos from voice to text, I do not want to be distracted from the road. I will clarify on any typos that this is made when I get home.

[Clumsy]

All of this "The best way to find scum is to find differences in people's play between the two Earths" talk is nonsense.

I disagree with Xk and FA wholeheartedly. Switching between games is to our advantage, and part of that is because from my own experience, being scum in one game and knowing who is town lets me compare the two games to each other, and it's not so much about playstyle as it is having more of an idea of their motivations in both games.

That didn't really articulate what I wanted to say, but close enough.

You mean you didn't do this in the last game? I know I wasn't very effective for town in Earth 2, but I thought that it was a good idea in that game. Do you think we should discard that completely? Or what?

[Clumsy]

Why is that? I don't see it.

[Clumsy]

Stop Mcmemer, you've violated the law!

But yeah, weird.

I hate this part of the game. I never have any idea of what to do.

[Clumsy]

TTH, no introductory roleplaying this time around? I for one enjoyed that last time. :P

[Clumsy]

So you think TTH is town because of the dialog with Alabaska, but not Alabaska? What's the reason behind it?

[Clumsy]

Lillith, looks like we're scum together again.


Fire, I can understand that you don't have much on Panther, but you don't have a read at all on Xk? They've posted the 3rd most so far.

[Clumsy]

So you think TTH is town because of the dialog with Alabaska, but not Alabaska? What's the reason behind it?

Don't like this post.

What don't you like about it?

It implies that the dialog between the two should be interpreted as both are town, when thats not how I read it either. I got TTH town more than anything from Alabaska, and I would assume anyone who was reading that would get a similar assumption if they were trying to understand and read into them. He just assumes both should be read as town or something?

It was odd.

I purposefully left my opinion out of it. I'm not saying I think Alabaska is town, I'm actually agreeing with you here that I like TTH for town more than Alabaska for the moment. The only assumption being made is the one you made. I can see how it comes off that way though, but no. Just asking for reasoning.

[Clumsy]

I purposefully left my opinion out of it. I'm not saying I think Alabaska is town, I'm actually agreeing with you here that I like TTH for town more than Alabaska for the moment. The only assumption being made is the one you made. I can see how it comes off that way though, but no. Just asking for reasoning.

So what kind of reasoning were you hoping to find?
If you came to same conclusions, what was the point of the question.
In before this was a reaction test.

You got to same conclusions that person got, but you questioned why he didn't get to Alabaska as town, even though you didn't get any of that yourself.
It sounds like bad questioning at best and scum trying to lk busy at worst.

So you're saying that trying to follow someone's reasoning and understanding their thought process is bad because I agree with them? Just because I hold a similar opinion does not mean that person is automatically town. I'm not going to tip my hand first when questioning.

[Clumsy]

So you're saying that trying to follow someone's reasoning and understanding their thought process is bad because I agree with them? Just because I hold a similar opinion does not mean that person is automatically town. I'm not going to tip my hand first when questioning.

No I am saying theres no reason to question someone if you agree with them on something unless you believe they are just forcing that agreement on you.

I don't think I agree with that. It's not about the read being the same, but the reason, especially depending on your read on the person agreeing with you. Scum knows who town is. If they can't come up with a good reason on their reads, that's a red flag. It may seem fluffy to you, but that's how I'm trying to figure things out on page... eight now? We haven't had a whole lot of interaction yet.

[Clumsy]

Work and mom's birthday today. Be back later.

[Clumsy]

Responding to prod. Gotta leave for work in about 15 minutes, I'll be back later. Real fast, I like Lilith for town, iffy with TTH (posting kind of reminds me of DC Earth-Two TTH, who was scum), and Ircher's tone seems really off to me. I should be back before deadline though, so for now,

UNVOTE:

I want to look more into TTH and Ircher to be specific.

[Clumsy]

Been at work since early this morning. Exhausted, but I'll catch up while I eat my dinner and try not to crash.

[Clumsy]

I want people who were not in the DC game to read TTH's posts starting here: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p7944327

That's where Day 1 on Earth 2 starts, where TTH was scum. I'm getting the same kind of vibe from her posting here as from there.

I'm going to crash soon. Dunno if I'll be up in time tomorrow. I'm okay with a Mcmenno/Ircher. Not voting for Lilith. Panther is a big townread.

VOTE: Mcmenno

p-edit: Fire, want to do something other than say "that's bad" or telling town town that we -are- going to do something?

[Clumsy]

Wait, Mcmenno, you get a message at the beginning of each night if someone visits you? Wouldn't they have not visited you yet?

TTH, was that post in English? ._.

[Clumsy]

"Okay to lynch

today

". Because I want to look into it more with more interaction and have other people read into the past game with you as scum to see if I'm the only one getting that read or not. You're pretty fast to jump onto me as soon as I so much as look your direction though. Is that normal for you? Also saying I'm discrediting when I'm really not is discrediting.

Okay, but for reals though, sleep time. I'll try to be back in time tomorrow.

[Clumsy]

Wow, I wake up to a last second switch without a claim. Cool. Look into those after I flip please, that's scummy as hell. See you on Earth Two.

[Clumsy]

I'm a commuter, not that it matters anymore.

[Clumsy]

Look into TTH and Fire. Ircher needs rope soon. I don't like Lilith's switch onto me after town reading me, not sure if scummy though.

[Clumsy]

Wait, didn't TTH have to leave? She's still here at deadline to hammer?

[Clumsy]

Why claim that early then?

[Clumsy]

First, bye Ircher! :(

That Earth One... I don't even want to talk about it.

That vote swing was ridiculous.

However, it ended up being the right thing to do for town. Makes me sad.

TTH deflecting my shots like a pro though.

Nothing I can do about it now though, I suppose. It was a humbling game though.


---------------------------------------------------

Any ideas on why Ircher was killed? He's usually at least somewhat scumread, so I don't see why scum wouldn't leave that and take out someone like TTH or FA for example. Seems odd to me.

[Clumsy]

No, I didn't see it in the rules either, but this is how the other game worked too. It was a bit confusing at first, but day start in Earth-One, mislynch, goes to NIGHT in Earth-TWO. Day in Earth-Two. Mislynch. NIGHT in Earth-ONE. Little weird though.

I don't think it's a vigi kill, is that even good play on effectively night 0? And that would mean that the mafia kill either no killed or was blocked/doctored. I think it's more likely that it was the actual kill.

[Clumsy]

I do enjoy playing with you TTH, so I can attest to agreeing with that.

[Clumsy]

I did react? o.O

Any ideas on why Ircher was killed? He's usually at least somewhat scumread, so I don't see why scum wouldn't leave that and take out someone like TTH or FA for example. Seems odd to me.

Probably because me and TTH both rolled scum in this round.

He's usually at least somewhat scumread, so I don't see why scum wouldn't leave that and take out someone like TTH or FA for example. Seems odd to me.

Of course they wouldn't kill me.
I'm loved. <3

Oh yeah?
Why's that?

...? I see no reaction here.

I'm pretty concerned you're calling me scum here, Fire.
Fun challenge for you because I'm going to bed now: if you don't know why by the time I wake up, I'm voting you. :3

What is this about?

[Clumsy]

He's usually at least somewhat scumread, so I don't see why scum wouldn't leave that and take out someone like TTH or FA for example. Seems odd to me.

Of course they wouldn't kill me.
I'm loved. <3

I do enjoy playing with you TTH, so I can attest to agreeing with that.

It wasn't a very subtle soft, but I tried to play along with it in case not everyone got it.


Mcmenno, why did you think everyone had a vote related role? What other roles related to this did you expect?

[Clumsy]

Should I be concerned about Fire's town read on me? I haven't really been doing much yet, work has been kicking my ass (and Overwatch >_>) so I don't know if that read is warranted.

[Clumsy]

I only ask because I'm very bad at the whole "This person is town reading me, so I think they're town" thing. Double at work today, be back tonight hopefully.

[Clumsy]

I haven't really seen anything so far that really sparks a read for me yet. Let me go check something, I might have something small to go on at the very least.

[Clumsy]

What's changed since the last time you posted to now to make you okay with voting Panther?

[Clumsy]

What's changed since the last time you posted to now to make you okay with voting Panther?

not a lot, honestly

So why are you "ready to put down a vote now"? As opposed to before?

[Clumsy]

Question: Is there any tactical advantage to scum claiming loved? If so, would it be a bad idea to test for the loved modifier by running them up to the normal lynch amount, with the threat of insta-hanging anyone who hammers after that point the next day? Town would have no reason to claim loved if they weren't, right? I'm not saying that this would just "aha gotcha scum" anything, but it would at least confirm that part (and give us something to do/discuss).

[Clumsy]

I don't think it will lead to much either, but it's something to discuss while nothing is going on. I do think it's more towny to tell people this early rather than later in the game though.

[Clumsy]

VOTE: TellTaleHeart

This is 4 votes, should be L-1. Only need ONE more vote to verify loved status, anyone that "accidently" hammers this *will* be hung. I need to re-read and reacquaint myself with the gamestate.

[Clumsy]

So is sitting here and doing nothing. If you have something to contribute, go for it.

UNVOTE:

[Clumsy]

I think I'm okay with Alabaska today. Something feels off about TTH and Xkfyu. I don't have any super strong reads at the moment though, I'm hoping that'll change after some more information comes out though. I'm at work, I'll try to expand and actually comment on things when I get home.

[Clumsy]

Motivation at an all time low, but I do have the day off. I'll try to be here with my reread at some point.

[Clumsy]

Yeah, I agree. Alabaska, go ahead and claim. Last two votes can be me and Mcmenno.

[Clumsy]

FFS.

VOTE: Alabaska

[Clumsy]

Lillith, basically just tone really. Something is bugging me about it but I can't really point and say "This". I wouldn't try to drive a lynch on it today or anything.

And I believe that is hammer, yes.

[Clumsy]

No. Right now, I need vig to step up and claim. Right now.

[Clumsy]

Yeah, boring, but I'm not going to -not-, you know? Although I don't think Earth 1 was a balance thing, Luck/I played poorly mostly.

[Clumsy]

Really? I figured it would have been the other way around.

If someone else is the vigilante, then you need to shoot Fire. Otherwise, Fire Assassin is conf town.

[Clumsy]

I mean if they didn't want to claim (which they should) then the real vigi (if it's not you) would just shoot you in the night and in the meantime, we lynch outside of you today.

[Clumsy]

I would have thought scum would kill the loved to get them out of the way, and vig would have shot the claimed hated.

[Clumsy]

Eh, maybe so. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Clumsy]

If it's only Fire that's claiming it, then I'm fine with following him on votes. I think he has a better read on the game than I do. Please make sure to give us follow up reads though, in case scum off you after.

[Clumsy]

Ouch, that hurts my pride. I mean, you're not wrong, but ouch. It's mostly that as of right now, you are 100% confirmed as town to me. What makes you think Panther over Xk Fire?

[Clumsy]

There was a reason for it Panther, but unfortunately nothing came of it. :/

[Clumsy]

There was a reason for it Panther, but unfortunately nothing came of it. :/

can you share now that it's run its course?

would like to know the thought process you had[/quote]

I will if I have to, but I'd rather not at this time. Might be important later.

I mean if they didn't want to claim (which they should) then the real vigi (if it's not you) would just shoot you in the night and in the meantime, we lynch outside of you today.

What the hell?

If FA is fake claiming, then the real Vig claims, and we lynch FA today and win the game.

Which is why I put "(which they should)", but I can't speak to everyone's thought processes and decisions. I agree that it would be best if FA was fake claiming, the real vig should claim. But no one did. So that put me at either Fire is telling the truth and confirmed town, or the situation above. Why do I get the feeling you're looking for ways to make my posts look bad?

Think I'll have one more post incoming.

[Clumsy]

Ircher kill seems reasonable, scum on world one versus town on world two could mean that he could be read as town more easily. Will be interesting to read clumsy today. I don't know why people are discussing the voting mechanic so heavily; in fact panther's early jump on TTH is the closest thing to a scumtell I've seen today. Looks like a scum trying to start a wagon on the back of town brownie points from the first world then backing off when nothing came of it. Even though these are different worlds if people are not careful their reads will bleed over easily; people who were Very Town last world I think will be overrated (for lack of a better term) in this world.

Ya I backed off of it when exactly one other person had posted because they didn't jump all over the vote and I got a limp dick because nothing would come of it.

Or I just actually thought about it and decided it's better to judge off of posting than trying to read the mod and setup spec an alignment.

Your post has an agenda and it's the scummiest post I've seen no doubt.

VOTE: Alabaska

Btw Alabaska, if you are scum, the correct strat there is to SPK. I take it that Ircher isn't widely considered a strong town player so that was a bit of a whiff but I get the logic a little bit if that is the logic you used.

I would probably have kept quiet about it if my modifier stayed in LYLO but it doesn't so I feel like it's essentially a filler role.
I've had this role once before and I crumbed it in almost the exact same way and nothing horrible happened as a result. I'm also someone who outed as an IC on my first post so maybe I am a tad impulsive but I don't think what I did was badly negative EV.

It just ruins it's potential to help in wagon analysis if you are in fact town. Now that both vote mechanic roles are outed (I don't diagree with Hated claiming) there is no purpose to them.

Thoughts on Alabaska?

Panther was on Alabaska hard since the very beginning. Bussing or catching scum? Xk was also on Alabaska pretty closely, but not as hard. I'm not sure if bussing or catching scum is more likely here though, I don't have the experience with Mafia as much as some do here. Either way though, I think if we just hang one of them today, and if that's a mislynch, hanging the other will win us the game. Getting scum day 1 was huge for us.

[Clumsy]

Lilith's silence is weirding me out though.

[Clumsy]

Panther, why are you digging more after I say that it's better to withhold that information? I don't want to discuss it yet.

That sounds like a towny response from Xk.

[Clumsy]

Are we even going to get more meaningful interaction out of today? I'm thinking just moving onto lynching would be for the best.

[Clumsy]

Votecount 3.8

Alabaska J (5) - lilith2013, Fire Assassin, Xkfyu, TellTaleHeart, Clumsy
PantherPunt (2) - Alabaska J, McMenno
TellTaleHeart (1) - PantherPunt

Not voting (0)

With 8 alive, it takes 5 votes to lynch someone.

(expired on 2016-09-12 21:12:00) remain until day end

Alabaska, confirmed scum, was voting against Panther. Panther was off the main wagon and was on TTH, who was town. McMenno, town, was on Panther.

Lillith was first on Alabaska wagon, Xk was in the middle, and I hammered. I'm gonna have to go back and look at what pushed those votes, but I'm at work. Will do tonight.

Lillith, thoughts on the above?

[Clumsy]

I pegged Alabaska right out of the gate of the game if you read the posts. lilith voted with me shortly therafter.

then I made a push on TTH that really didn't leave me feeling like it was where I was going to end up voting. then I was gone. if I had checked in when there was the slightest sniff of momentum against Alabaska I would have been ramming it down everyone's throats

being "off wagon" is a product of timing and if you can't apply context to that, you're bad or pushing an agenda

-_- Really?

Alabaska, confirmed scum, was voting against Panther. Panther was off the main wagon and was on TTH, who was town. McMenno, town, was on Panther.

Lillith was first on Alabaska wagon, Xk was in the middle, and I hammered.

I'm gonna have to go back and look at what pushed those votes, but I'm at work. Will do tonight.

Lillith, thoughts on the above?

I was simply making an observation about where votes were at the time of that vote count. I said I hadn't looked at what exactly was going on at the time that those votes were cast. Why are you jumping on calling me bad or pushing an agenda when it was very clear that these were observations and that I hadn't gone back yet? It seems overly defensive and jumpy to me.

Also, I have definitely seen scum immediately push on their partners right out of the gate. In fact, I could very much see it as early pushing for distance, then looking for another wagon to hop to. If one of you flipped scum, the other could point at that and use it as a defense. Objectively, could you see that happen too?

[Clumsy]

if you're using "being off wagon" as a scum point without other context, yes, you are bad.

and yes I've come out of the gate going at my partner. you are correct that it is an objective possiblity in the realm of potential things that can happen in the game of mafia. in fact, I just did it recently in a game on another site.

this game hinges on reading written words in part to determine genuinness. it's up to the uniformed player to make a determination on whether they believe something to be genuine/real or faked/theatrically agenda-driven.

so if you had to give a play by play of the votes to organize your thoughts, that's fine. if you're using a play by play of the votes to justify your reads, that's not fine.

when you've gone and read for context to make judgement on my interactions with alabaska, I look forward to your justification of your conclusion

Panther, please direct me to where in post 881 I say that it's a scum point. If you can't, then this article may be relevant.

In post 881 I posted a string of facts without any indication as to whether I thought it was scummy for it to be that way or not and asked another player their thoughts on that string of facts. You were not the only one I mentioned in that post. I think the only thing you could argue had any kind of alignment pushing to it is me saying that I was the one who hammered, but that's not what you were drawn to. You're immediately assuming that I'm pushing an agenda because I'm raising scum points against you that you don't agree with, when

I said nothing about it being scum indicative.

[Clumsy]

Well I was going to, but I got called back into work. I also work all day today too. >_<

I suppose if Lillith also took that as how you took it, then my point is moot. I thought it was an interesting reaction, but it would seems it was tainted. Which is annoying.

Right now I think Panther and Xk hanging wins the game. So I'm willing to put my vote on XK. I think he's at l-1 though. Xk, I have intent. Claim?

[Clumsy]

To put it bluntly, in the best case scenario for Xk, this is what would happen.

-Xk actually is odd night cop
-He has no power for the night to help
-He will only be the "What if" for the next day in LyLo because of the claim. (It seems -too- perfect for plausible deniability, and I don't think I could shake that personally)

Basically what I'm saying is that his results have turned up nothing, he won't get to use it again, and is in effect a VT with some WIFOM with him. So

VOTE: Xkfyu

[Clumsy]

If Xkfyu turns up town, scum will likely kill Fire Assassin, the confirmed town for better odds at winning, otherwise it's a 50-50. If Xkfyu turns up scum, hey, golden sweep.

[Clumsy]

I had followed TTH n0, so I was pretty sure her Loved claim was true (No action), but testing it would rule out ninja.

I followed Fire Assassin n1 because I wouldn't be able to shake my paranoia of him fooling us (basically what Xk said. ._.)

I got that he performed a killing action, so that's why I called for the vig claim. If Fire didn't claim it, bam, second mafia. But he did, and no counter claim, so nothing came from it.

I didn't want to talk about it because I was as good as a cop at this point with the Vig outed and 1 mafia left. Someone else makes a killing action, they're mafia. If not, either ninja or town, but probability is on the side of town, so lynch the other one. That's also why I was kind of pushing scum to night kill you Fire, sorry about that. XD

[Clumsy]

First

, bye Ircher!

T

hat Earth One... I don't even want to talk about it.

T

hat vote swing was ridiculous.

H

owever, it ended up being the right thing to do for town. Makes me sad.

TTH deflecting my shots like a pro though.

Nothing

I can do about it now though, I suppose. It was a humbling game though.

My crumb at my action n0.
The extra TTH was me being bad at things.