Micro 719: For Us [Endgame]

[Imperium]

I think speculation that "True Love" is probably a boon in a game about love is pretty sound speculation. I don't think that any of the further speculation that I've skimmed is sound (in particular, assuming you know what your upgrade is because there was a similar upgrade in a past game) - I think it moves the needle on Senpai's alignment closer to town but don't really agree with everything else.

[Imperium]

it's not yet a townread. Just a hope.

I liked this post.
Am waiting for GiF to dislike it.

[Imperium]

Ok.

HURT WITH A BLADE: Burning Hatred

Everyone hurt themselves plz

What was your initial thought with this?

[Imperium]

just wait until we have more alignment indicative content to inform our decision.

This is a reasonable approach to me and probably the path that I'm going to be taking.
I mean maybe the flavor speculation or the activation speculation is correct and that's cool but I just prefer to give goodies to the people who are making the most significant positive impact on the game (whether they want it or not). Nothing else will factor into my decision unless someone makes Tammy laugh or something.

[Imperium]

We are burning hatred. Whether it be GIF or me, our hatred burns the same.

You think you're likely fool me about who's posting?

I don't think that morph and Burning could be scum together based on this exchange.
Chances are this observation will turn out to be completely useless since morph seems fairly town in their own right from the hopeful interactions with GiF alone, but there's always a chance that ffery's absence was spent in a Tibetan Mafia Monastery and her glorious return will be her steamrolling all of us who thought she was an easy read before and in that situation this is still not likely to be useful because we've been fucked from the beginning.

Oh well.

[Imperium]

But hey, talk to me, HS.
What are you interested?

HS mentioned gutpings on morph so far. If you're trying to engage with them, why not ask them to elaborate?

I really don't see what's to like about 58/60 but whatever.

Why drop it here?

[Imperium]

uhhhhh I dislike this post it looks good at face value but it seems most like a claim to get towny points if anything because if you sit and look at it for a moment what comes to my mind is A) Why claim right away and not later in the day there's no need to do it right away B) You could've waited to see if you were scummy or not because if others viewed you as scummy no need to out yourself and save the other "protective" roles

Claiming bulletproof to save protective roles also doesn't actually make sense, but we're not talking about that

I appreciate that you pointed out problems with the claim in thread, though - I myself deliberated on whether I'd poke at it or not and ultimately decided not to because wanted to give mastina room to do her thing but I'd imagine that people who had issues with the claim are less likely to be in a scum/town scum/scum relationship with the slot.

[Imperium]

ohhhhh so this is what you were going for lol okay I see the ploy here.

I don't see the ploy exactly! Mind talking to me about it?

[Imperium]

Town leaning Morph and Burning Hatred right now.

Why?
I think sometimes I have the tendencies to townread people for being active and around; do you have anything interesting on them that proves you're not falling into the same trap that I often do?

[Imperium]

Uhhh... Yet it's not scummy for Burning Hatred to want no one to have it?

~Jae

I don't think so - he very obviously wasn't proposing a plan to skip on the goodies so I don't necessarily understand the angle you're taking here.

[Imperium]

Now that I'm back home, I've read things a bit more carefully, and I don't think this is as great for this hydra as I thought. Still good, but not what I thought.

I like the hydra walking back on this.
I don't like the hydra walking back on this for any particular reason.

[Imperium]

I mean I'm a pinnacle of town so I understand the townread on me but why on morph?

Page 6. A new record!!!

[Imperium]

I am about 80% certain that if we get the true love mechanic we'll be made into an Innocent Child.
In Memory had Creature as public flavour, and my role there gave people boosts when I neighbored with them. When I neighbored with Creature's public flavour it made him an Innocent Child.
In Memory was modded by RC, and both FA and Alisae played in it.

I think your confidence level is too high unless you're not showing us part of your process. I find that moderators actively try to avoid repeating the same tricks they've used in the past; do you disagree or is it something that all three of them loved so much that they jammed it into Alisae's game?

[Imperium]

whichever-part-of-NMS was all noncommittal with their reads here.

I think Jae believes that Hatred's vote for No One is a permanent one.
I don't understand why but I don't think misunderstanding an approach means anything for their alignment.

[Imperium]

That makes more sense!

[Imperium]

I'd like you to retread it if you don't mind.

Why was Chickadee's logic flawed? Why did you bring Burning Hatred up as a rebuttal to that flawed logic?

I know what I'm

expecting

your answers to be but your approach seems abstract if my expectations are correct.

[Imperium]

Nominate: No One

- Scott

Do you have any reads or are you gonna make Chickadee do all of the heavy lifting for you?

[Imperium]

I have to be wary
Because the first few rl days are VERY important to me.

This gave me hope that the vote was temporary.

[Imperium]

And here the underlined is just ew. Yes, both scum could in fact be doing the same thing. I hate "but would scum really so that" kind of arguments, since scum typically use the logic of "Town will never think we would do this!" And then the bolded contradicts the previous statement about them thinking there could be risk involved.

I like this rebuttal.

[Imperium]

OK, that's pretty much what I expected you to say!

[Imperium]

I have to be wary
Because the first few rl days are VERY important to me.

This gave me hope that the vote was temporary.

Which vote?

the nomination vote for no one

[Imperium]

Hi everyone!

I've read up to page 3, but May be aloof for a few days. Sorry about that!

- Ari

guess it was only a matter of time before you rolled scum against me again :/
what do you have going on that will make you aloof?

[Imperium]

Did you not see the question posed to the mod and the confusion on Alisae's part? There was for a brief time some implication that something could happen to everyone if the votes were equal. That's another reason I'm leaning town on Burning Hatred.

Ah. I saw but my tired brain failed to process.

[Imperium]

Morph is mostly a gut read.

I know these types of things are difficult to explain, but could you direct me to a couple phrases or posts that you liked? What did you think of their readslist? What did you think of their big shitposts telling Lovebirds and Senpai that their approach to the mechanics were bad?

[Imperium]

I once did that when I was in SoS hydra in that phoenix wright game.
It was glorious.

you once townread an active player?
hard to believe!!!

[Imperium]

I knew that you'd say this

i'm interpreting this to mean that you knew i'd call you scum because you are scum and you knew i'd stare into your soul
you don't have to be high energy or high commitment - would never ask something like that from you
but i know you have something from those first three pages and I think you should share it with us before you forget!

[Imperium]

It's kind of sad that it's 11:30pm and I'm hopefully hovering around on my phone in bed hoping that Nacho has more questions for me.

This is what happens when mastina has no time to bounce things around with me. I get needy and leech off someone else's partner for my attempts to get a feel for my reads. =P

Where did you end up on Scott and Ramona?
What do you think of morph's readslist other than the very obvious fuckup of not putting us on top?

[Imperium]

Yeah and this isn't like that at all. It's also the most optimal play given the game state.

Could you explain this position a bit more?
I feel like you could quite possibly be the only person who believes this currently which could be incredibly dangerous if you're the only one who's right.

[Imperium]

rest in peace Bert, you sweet sweet prince.
i still miss him

[Imperium]

Actually, Scott, what is YOUR analysis of the current game state?
I want yours, not Ramora's.

well you're not gonna get anything because:

I have reads. I'm not going to share them anytime soon though.

unless you think he just secretly hates my guts or something

[Imperium]

unless you think he just secretly hates my guts or something

That is entirely possible.

if it wasn't extremely important that i give this game my undivided attention then i'd flip that arrow upside down.

[Imperium]

I mean, Scott clearly doesn't have any reads, or he wouldn't have had not nominating anyone as an optimal play.

that could be the case!
or he has an interesting thought.
i hope he has an interesting thought because i'm thinking it will probably get me some company on this "Scott & Ramona might be town" island I'm currently residing on.

[Imperium]

why did you ask ffery to vote us early on?
i mean obviously you knew she wouldn't - did you think you'd get something alignment-indicative out of her reaction?

[Imperium]

I too like assuming all the lynchbaits to be town first.

my townread on the slot feels more substantial than "i'm townreading you because of who is in your slot".

[Imperium]

is your only opinion of the Ramona side that she seems like she's trying or would you add genuine on top of that?

[Imperium]

do you think it's likely that LUV would contradict a couple key stances of his partner in the way that he did if she was the carrying head and they were scum?

[Imperium]

do you think it's likely that LUV would contradict a couple key stances of his partner in the way that he did if she was the carrying head and they were scum?

i'm referencing the no one vote in particular

[Imperium]

It's a gamble that we don't need to make.

I don't necessarily disagree with this. I think I'm more amendable to gambling on "nominate a player for mechanic Day 1" type of things just because I think it's shitty design to fuck town over for going something early and not really putting out warning signs for them not to do it but that's a personal philosophy and not necessarily reflected by others.

There's also the "this is a love game and true love is cute!" factor but I somehow find this even less compelling than the other reason.

[Imperium]

I was hoping to bounce that with mastina but if you're around and want to check my work I can throw some quotes at you?

I would very much appreciate some quotes!

[Imperium]

Are you familiar with ffery's play at all or is this just intuition at work?

[Imperium]

I MAY be biased regarding what Scott is posting.

And this is because it's something you personally can fake as scum or am I supposed to be picking up on a different implication?

[Imperium]

Jae, I fear I am fading away and fast.

[Imperium]

I am staying up to talk morph with you and then I am passing out immediately after.

[Imperium]

I'm uncomfortable to say that.

Why?

[Imperium]

wanna expand on that a bit for the sake of everyone else?

[Imperium]

what wariness were you seeing specifically and how was wariness the key to unlocking GiF's play?

[Imperium]

#109 is a good post to townread; ffery is less comfortable playing scum than town and playing scum for her first time back would be less than ideal. she'd have to navigate a number of different threats (Tammy/GiF/me are the three that come to mind and we all read her in different ways) and so her making that joke about carrying Cabd is ~probably~ not something she does unless she's feeling super good about navigating that particular minefield.

[Imperium]

I thought #125 was evidence of her actually trying to sort GiF (that line coupled with the "it's not a townread. it's a hope." line were the two pieces of the interactions with GiF that I really liked). I'm not really sure how she'd handle that interaction as scum so I can't nod along as emphatically to this one but I think her faking paranoia on GiF there as scum would probably come across as a bit more fake, a bit more flat.

[Imperium]

I liked the townbin comment for its general confidence; it's that edge and satisfaction and finality to a ffery read that I expect sometimes. I think this is the thing she'd be most comfortable faking as scum.

And as I get done typing I realize I have no idea if this is what you were looking for but it's already typed up so please wait until I pass out before pointing out that you were explaining something totally different!

[Imperium]

Getting weird pings from a lot of Imperium posts (176, 185, 216)

one of these things is not like the others, but otherwise i liked this post overall!

[Imperium]

Hi!

Tammy head popping in to say hi, we're town (that's for gif ), and bye.

I'm really busy right now, so nacho will be the driver for probably about half of day one. I'll try to pop in here and there when I can though! Just don't expect to see me or much of me for a few real life days.

[Imperium]

Maybe it's my influence!

[Imperium]

So, first up what was holding onto in the neighborhood in case Andy was scum and our other neighbor was scum too is this: viewtopic.php?p=9032231#p9032231

I was interested in Maria's response and interaction to the contradiction argument because she contradicts herself about her meta and this is part of what got her mislynched in DragonBall Z. I thought her reaction when it was pointed out in that game looked decently town and I wanted to see if it would be similar here and maybe get a better read on her. Was going to discuss this in the neighborhood, but I'll not be posting in there anymore this game, so here it is.

Yesterday I was going to out that we were in a neighborhood when it became clear that the neighborhood just was not going to work out, but Nacho's so sweet and trusting, his response when I got annoyed was Cabd is only concerned we're going to get mislynched and doesn't want that to happen.

For the record, yes we read your slot as town and it's been an ongoing thing that we've been discussing. Nacho did read you as decently town early and keeps backing that up with just not believing that this would be your scum game when coming back from not playing for over a year or whatever. I've also thought your early game looked town but mostly Cabd's play here and in the neighborhood has looked town. My town read on you guys solidified yesterday when you morphed into pompous cat and killed any desire I had to post in the neighborhood.

What they're leaving out is how upfront I've been about how busy and sick I've been. The game started Sunday night after I was in bed, but not before the neighborhood was opened. I was busy as fuck on Monday and had absolutely no plans to do anything with this game on Monday, but because I *was* excited as fuck to be in a neighborhood with them, Monday night while at pool league, I squeezed time in between pool games at a fucking pool hall to at least skim the game so I could at least have an idea of what was going on in this game and be able to post in the neighborhood. Sorting the neighborhood is the biggest priority we have, and I at least wanted to do something since neighborhood. Nacho only posted here Tuesday morning because I begged him to; he had other plans for what he was going to do that day but I asked him to make this a priority because I was excited to be playing this game and in that particular neighborhood. I was sick on Tuesday but checked the neigbhorhood and saw the cabd talking about his scum read on you; I felt and posted that the way he was going about it felt more like him being town. Yesterday I was sick in bed and busy elsewhere but I checked in here and saw Lovebirds response to their scum read and read it and gave some thoughts because again I *was* excited to be in a neighborhood with them and I thought I'd give as much time and energy I could possibly expend to at least do something there.

I cannot be a thread presence right now and if it weren't for the fact that I was just really happy to be in a neighborhood with people I thought I was going to enjoy playing with, I wouldn't even have read as much as I've read so far this game. I don't even really have the time to type this out, but now you know where I'm coming from here.

[Imperium]

Hey you know what works? Talk to him about it.

[Imperium]

I was gonna snark back, but let me take a step back here.

We tried to somewhat with the "get into the main thread" post so that we could discuss it in the appropriate location. Nacho's response of "nah imma keep doing my own thing" didn't exactly help with our paranoia.

If you're talking about the one yesterday, well considering it turned me off completely to the neighborhood because it felt pompous as fuck and nacho took it as you just being concerned he's going to get mislynched maybe you should have added a whip or something. Or maybe we just don't bow down to you. I think you both should sure as shit know that's probably not the best way to go about it.

If you're talking about the one Monday night when you knew we were at Pool league, when I told you we wouldn't have time to post, when you knew that I was at least reading games in between playing games, well you know where to stick it. We don't typically play mafia while playing pool unless there's an urgent need. The only only reason why I bothered was because neighborhood and wanted to sort it.

[Imperium]

And there was absolutely nothing preventing you from trying to sort nacho in the neighborhood or talk to him. You acting like it is is utter silliness and you know better. And considering that nacho was specifically looking for something from member number three in the neighborhood you know that you can try to sort there.

[Imperium]

Oh Andy concerning your response to them, which is only partially read because I didn't read their initial case.

I thought that the early way you went about your response to cabd felt a bit like you were trying to discredit him like the way you did when I suspected you in the thing. The accusation that cabd is jealous of you felt that way too. But I thought that the way you were talking down to him sounded town like the way you treated me in laundry mafia. I thought that you coming down on them as the side of town after giving me that contradictory feeling was weird. Ultimately I didn't know what to make of your reaction there.

Early game I was concerned that you seemed to be playing up to us a bit when GIF was voting for us. I don't think you have a clue how to read either one of us, so your assertion that you even know how after how laundry mafia played out felt really weird. Nacho said that you always think you can read him when you can't though. I though that Maria wanting to get reads before you posted so she wouldn't be influenced by your reads looked good. I didn't really like the way she attacked jaestina for claiming though.

I thought it was weird that Jaestina thought there were protectives even though they were bulletproof.

I had a couple other thoughts but can't remember them right now, because they were small thoughts I had while reading disjointedly at a pool hall. There's a good chunk of this game I have not read.

There you have all my grand thoughts.

[Imperium]

I don't see the problem with nacho being nacho. I'm surprised you have any issue with that at all.

[Imperium]

Again, "hey nacho why are you running interference with me, it kinda freaks me out" seems not a difficult thing to bring up to him. I mean if you're really concerned and really interested in figuring him out.

[Imperium]

We tried to somewhat with the "get into the main thread" post so that we could discuss it in the appropriate location. Nacho's response of "nah imma keep doing my own thing" didn't exactly help with our paranoia.

While I'm not upset by this interaction, I am hurt.

First of all, I am mildly annoyed at your initial post because you didn't say hey you're paranoid of me focusing too heavily in the neighborhood thread (in which case I would have pointed out that we recently did make the transition from neighborhood to game thread and Tammy was posting thoughts that she would have given to me and only me in the neighborhood thread instead and didn't have time or brainpower to think and compose thoughts because she was sick). Not every one of my thoughts reaches the game thread mostly for other people's benefit - sometimes I like to keep paranoid thoughts to myself but mostly I try to post my thoughts in thread in a way where my ISO is something people can follow and engage - posting a random assortment of assertions I'm not really sure I'm willing to stand behind and I'm not really sure I believe in doesn't quite accomplish that. This is where the hurt comes into play - if you were paranoid of us, then why did you say that we needed to post in thread so "people" could sort us instead of just telling us the truth? I was dismissive of Cabd's post because it's silly to worry that we are getting mislynched - if you trusted me enough to let me know that it was you that was worried, then I would have responded with more care than I did.

Secondly, your overall approach. While I'm usually not one to be worried over wording and the like, I was surprised to see that you were approaching us like petulant children, which made me think that I wasn't quite reading your post in the right light - I would never say that I wasn't going to talk to you anymore (temporarily or permanently) in order to get you to play how I want to play. I respect you too much to use a carrot or the stick approach with you when we can instead just have a grown-up conversation and I thought that respect was mutual - was the "we aren't posting in thread anymore" supposed to be interpreted a different way than "if you're good boys and girls then you can get morph treats but since you've been bad no treats for you?".

The last part is perhaps the silliest one (and of course the most important one to me) just in that I thought we've built up enough of a rapport where if I tell you that I'm approaching the game in a certain way that you'll trust me on it and give me a little room.

[Imperium]

Then sort him.

You did nothing of the sort to sort him. You didn't talk to him or us about any of your concerns. You didn't even try. You just did your pompous thing yesterday afternoon and then went on about your way.

That's sill not sorting. I don't even know what the hell you think it is.

[Imperium]

And no Cabd my sweet, suspecting us isn't burning bridges at all, but if we managed to so solidly trample the everloving shit out of your plans then I'm pretty sure that we'd get an ass chewing or a lecture of some sort because god damn.

[Imperium]

And if you suspected us why no attempt to sort. None. Nada. Nothing.

[Imperium]

We tried to somewhat with the "get into the main thread" post so that we could discuss it in the appropriate location. Nacho's response of "nah imma keep doing my own thing" didn't exactly help with our paranoia.

While I'm not upset by this interaction, I am hurt.

First of all, I am mildly annoyed at your initial post because you didn't say hey you're paranoid of me focusing too heavily in the neighborhood thread (in which case I would have pointed out that we recently did make the transition from neighborhood to game thread and Tammy was posting thoughts that she would have given to me and only me in the neighborhood thread instead and didn't have time or brainpower to think and compose thoughts because she was sick). Not every one of my thoughts reaches the game thread mostly for other people's benefit - sometimes I like to keep paranoid thoughts to myself but mostly I try to post my thoughts in thread in a way where my ISO is something people can follow and engage - posting a random assortment of assertions I'm not really sure I'm willing to stand behind and I'm not really sure I believe in doesn't quite accomplish that. This is where the hurt comes into play - if you were paranoid of us, then why did you say that we needed to post in thread so "people" could sort us instead of just telling us the truth? I was dismissive of Cabd's post because it's silly to worry that we are getting mislynched - if you trusted me enough to let me know that it was you that was worried, then I would have responded with more care than I did.

Secondly, your overall approach. While I'm usually not one to be worried over wording and the like, I was surprised to see that you were approaching us like petulant children, which made me think that I wasn't quite reading your post in the right light - I would never say that I wasn't going to talk to you anymore (temporarily or permanently) in order to get you to play how I want to play. I respect you too much to use a carrot or the stick approach with you when we can instead just have a grown-up conversation and I thought that respect was mutual - was the "we aren't posting in thread anymore" supposed to be interpreted a different way than "if you're good boys and girls then you can get morph treats but since you've been bad no treats for you?".

The last part is perhaps the silliest one (and of course the most important one to me) just in that I thought we've built up enough of a rapport where if I tell you that I'm approaching the game in a certain way that you'll trust me on it and give me a little room.

This is a Nacho post.

[Imperium]

Maybe I'm getting better at reading you or I think I am? Maybe it's a product of listening to nacho talk about the possibilities and coming down on the side of town and trusting him? Maybe it's a product of also thinking cabd's play is more like his town play and that supplements it? It's not like I went super town early and stopped reading or assessing and nacho didn't either.

[Imperium]

So, maybe my sense that I was townbinned hard just hours into this game is a misperception.

I've been hard townreading you this game from the second you started posting and I know I shouldn't be which is why I've been trying to check myself in the silliest of ways (the "for other people" bit doesn't mean that I'm trying to get you to say things in order to talk to other people, it means that I'm trying to ask you questions in order to check my townread on you - very very sad they've been the best doubts I've been able to come up with but here we go!!). My interactions with Human Sequencer in the neighborhood haven't been running interference for you, they've been making sure that she couldn't simply skate on "morph doesn't make sense to me". My interactions with Jae haven't been running interference for you, they were for Jae's and my benefit (in reading Jae) as we talked about at the time; sometimes it's hard to find the words why you think something and sometimes hearing someone's other explanation helps; sometimes it's not quite right but it's close and you can draw a connection from their words to your meaning and sometimes it's completely wrong but even that helps because you start to see your own perspective a bit clearer.

[Imperium]

You're assuming that my paranoia sprang full-grown like an Athena-migraine from Zeus's forehead. It didn't. It went into hyperdrive yesterday. I don't like locking up game-relevant info in a contested neighborhood.

I didn't assume that; I wasn't precise enough with my language in the first part.

[Imperium]

That's interesting. When you asked me to explain for other people, I launched into an explanation, and missed your post with specifics you wanted me to touch on. I didn't touch on them. I did one of my hand-wavy descriptions of the inputs and outputs of my GiF-reading algorithm, which is at heart a black box process.

That apparently satisfied your question, though.

You answered a question I didn't much care about poorly. I expected it was because you didn't understand why I was asking which is fine because I didn't really understand why I asked it either.

[Imperium]

I've been hard townreading you this game from the second you started posting

Our early posts were shit though?

Who said that?

[Imperium]

What kind of question is that?

[Imperium]

Ffery, what in your initial posting do you think that I liked?

[Imperium]

Cabd, I never said that I was townreading you in your first ten posts. I did mention the early interaction that I liked immediately in the neighborhood - are you looking for something else or...?

[Imperium]

I think it was my reach-out to GiF.

Which was extremely unpracticed and rusty.

You seem to be implying that I should scumread you for being rusty - being rusty typically means that your thought process is easier to see and it means I can have more confidence that you're not doing next-level moves.

[Imperium]

Implying that the best I would have expected was a "maybe town?" for it when it definitely wasn't my best town work.

What this thread witnessed was you literally finding your mafia legs again. I don't understand what you mean by "best town work" - if you mean that it wasn't your most impressive heap of analysis then fine but if you think that your first interaction with GiF as scum looks like that then maybe I don't understand you as well as I thought I did.

[Imperium]

On the other hand, GiF, who spots me as scum with alarming ease, wasn't exactly convinced.

GiF has always been more skeptical of you in general; he starts from scum and works to town and I start from town and work to scum. The reason why you burn me as scum is not because I don't see scum motivation in your posting and it's not because I don't have doubts - it's because I don't press you on things when they concern me because I feel like I should be able to read you so well and my concerns seem silly.

[Imperium]

I have no idea what my first interaction with GiF as scum looks like.

I do know I'll give it my absolute best shot.

Don't be lazy.

When you're scum you know that GiF is town and you know what you look for that you find more likely to be coming from him when he's town or when he's scum. You know if you're comfortable townreading him or scumreading him as scum (which response would make him more skeptical? does he have the clout to lynch you and what makes him more inclined to be okay with lynching you?). You know when you're interacting with him that I'm watching your interactions - you know that I'm expecting you to reach a correct read and you'll be met with extreme skepticism if you reach a different read so while you might push at the opposite angle for a little while for depth reasons you're ending up on the right side of the road in the end, etc. etc. etc.

[Imperium]

I predict an rvs vote within 2 pages, and excessice yelling as a result.

Hello, this is the hatred part.

<3

GiF, thoughts about the true love nomination thing?

What if I'm ZZZX?

Hmm let me see. According to the wording, being nominated doesn't guarantee a positive impact. Thus, I am glad to put myself as a tribute and test that mechanic on myself to see what happens.

You sound like GiF, though! Yeah, we wondered about that lack of guarantee earlier.

This interaction struck me as town because it looked like you identified him and you wanted to sort him but struggled finding good direction to sort him (you didn't really know what you were doing yet). I find this interaction less likely to come from you as scum because I think you as scum might wait until you have stronger lines of thoughts to pursue. This line of thought could be wrong if you thought a player you were worried about had the expectation you would try to sort him obviously I'm thread, but I don't know why that would be the case.

[Imperium]

You sound like GiF, though! Yeah, we wondered about that lack of guarantee earlier.

I liked this piece of the interaction in particular (in a "I don't think they're partners sense") because there's good nuance to this - you're pretty sure that it's GiF but there's still that bit of doubt and so you're testing the waters in the way. This could fairly obviously be wrong because I'm extrapolating a lot here but that isn't particularly important.

[Imperium]

And with that, I'll probably be gone/extremely low content for the next couple of games; need to put in work elsewhere when I do have time for mafia and I won't have much.

[Imperium]

I hope that both of us will be more active in the coming days!

Glorified prod dodge.

[Imperium]

I'm going to start getting caught up with the game tonight! I wouldn't count on seeing nacho in the next day or two cuz he's a bit behind and overloaded, so you have me. If you have anytng you want me to direct nachos attention to, just let me know. I don't think I'll get 109% caught up today, but I'll get as far as I can.

[Imperium]

I also feel like Nacho's reach out to me earlier in the game was genuine and not a pockety attempt, it felt like when he reached out to me in Boombox when I went wrong on my PoE, it's hard to explain the feeling but I don't think it was an attempt to pocket me in any case -- that said I do kind of feel like Nacho would reach out to me regardless just to try to help me stay in the game and motivated because he's a nice person so I don't know I might be reading too much into it.

Nacho tried a pro-level reachout to Tammy and I in laundry and it almost worked.

Tammy and I had a heated back-and-forth which was a stupid thing in hindsight on my part but Nacho walks in and takes this mediator approach of 'hey you're both great you're both town let's get back in this' and it worked. But he was scum and someone said he might be scum for diffusing the Tammy v Andy thing for townpoints.

I'm not saying he's scum here but let's make no mistake Nacho knows how to play this game. Like, my big issue is I don't get townfeels from his posting and that concerns me.

-Andy

First I want to point out that this is apples and oranges. When someone brought up that he might be scum for doing it in that game, I pointed out that that was nai at all even while acknowledging he could be scum. Nacho mediates things like that regardless of his alignment sometimes, but he could tell I was hurting and miserable and once he realized that we were both misunderstanding each other he knew he could help. Would it have a side effect of making him look better, sure, but if he can fix a situation in a game when I'm feeling that shitty he'll do it regardless of alignment. I mean I guess if he's scum and he thought he could use it to his advantage because mislynching me is on his scum bucket list then he might, but I just think if he saw me that miserable he'd want to help.

Here as far as I understand was a reach out to help Jae get motivated (I haven't read it so going off Jae's impression) and he quite often reaches out to people as town in that way.

What I'm trying to say is look at the context and what he's doing with the reach out.

How come you didn't interact with any of our thoughts or ask any questions if you want to sort us? I'm finding it difficult to believe you don't get *any* town feels from nachos posting.

[Imperium]

ALISAE IS BACK YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY

RAWR!

[Imperium]

Andy - have you ever played with mastina?

[Imperium]

Antihero yelled at me for an entire game day because of it. (He was scumreading him, and he was scum!)
I think nacho was there too.

This post is funny now that I know you thought it was me!

(We get confused for each other a surprising amount, it's pretty amusing)

[Imperium]

It's a gamble that we don't need to make. The potential of having an IC doesn't appeal to me because in my experience, they don't scare scum. They only make things easier during the night. I rather see how people attempt to sort someone's alignment then see how they interact with confirmed town.

I kinda like this.

I made a mental note of liking this too. Which is cool as they were an early leaning scum read of mine due to the attack on the love mechanic that nms had pointed out and questioned about. (Though nacho thought it was more likely to be a player quirk than alignment relevant)

[Imperium]

Yeah, sorry quite baffled that Andy is all no town feels from nacho posting. I might be biased, but.

As of page 11, I like morph, gif, and nms for town.

[Imperium]

Imperium is a little worrying, because Nacho usually seems pretty town fairly early for me when they are town, but they haven't really gotten into the game too much yet. I don't know if that's a scum tell necessarily though. I'll have a stronger read once they get more into the game (like your truly, >_>).

Oh I remember I wanted to ask about this. Why do you think this? When we played in dragon ball z together, you spent most of day one suspecting us? (You only started town reading us when nacho did some extensive ISO dives and we started defending you while others attacked you and you noted that our defense of you might be why you were softening on us?)

[Imperium]

Oh mea culpa Andy did interact some with nacho.

[Imperium]

how do you have sword of damocles so low when to my memory they've posted so little at this point in time? if imperium (who hadn't posted at this time) is a null read, how are you townreading CP and wtf is that damocles scumread?

*twitch*

[Imperium]

I'm actually interested in why you believe it. Claiming BP so you don't draw protectives is dumb and trying to outguess the setup the way they're doing is even dumber. (And even if they're right they almost certainly get killed by a strongman.) It doesn't strike me as a play Jae and mastina would make if they were being honest.

How much experience do you have with them?

[Imperium]

Hi! I like that somebody pointed out that Devil's push on us was bad, but I'm biased of course.

Imperium I wanted to townread, it seemed like they were asking good questions and being towny as hell. But then I realized that y'all seem to be asking lots of questions but I don't really see you doing much with the information or making pushes. Seems like a lot of "This post seems towny" when you do analyze things, and just questioning otherwise. Can you speak to that, either head?

-Shaziro

Asking questions and interacting is how we form our reads. Neither head is going to make a push until we have something to push. Sometimes the town reads come first. Was there any information in particular you thought we should do something with that we didn't?

[Imperium]

I feel I have too many town reads, so I'm going to try and look at things with fresh eyes. After talking with LUV, the TR pile we can agree on is Imperium and CP.

So I'm sticking with that for now, and reevaluating everything else. I still want to call Damocles town, but I think we both need Ari to come in before we can get a solid read on that slot.

~Ramona (Hey LUV, I singed it this time, please love me?)

I think I like this post for the offbeat town reads it has.

[Imperium]

i don't really buy andrius' unconditional sheep of mariars read either? unless i'm missing something there?

I support her.
This isn't unconditional sheeping. We talked about stuff elsewhere and I agreed with her and this is definitely her cause she's championing and doesn't need me fighting her battles. I am more focused with getting at CABD and NACHO among others.

I mean, sure, if she asked me to follow her blindly I would but that isn't this case.

man this whole playerlist has so much history with everybody else on this playerlist i kinda just feel left outwhich is really bad because i need to drive this slot

We have history talk to me.
What do you think of Imperium? Because Nacho hasn't really impressed me much and that concerns me. It reminds me a bit of scumnacho trying to make headway into a game without a BIG THING to get behind. Granted this could simply be townNacho just being busy and not really being chummy but w/e.

What do you think of Scott/Ramona? Together/separately/whatever.
Are you having an easier time analyzing my posts or should I use more flirtatious prose?

@Andrius

Sweet, I'm glad you're also scumreading Jaestina for similar reasons as Mariar because I was starting to worry I'd have to actually ask Mariar about it which terrifies me.

I missed your post before asking my reads, so I'll answer that while I talk about nacho.
I think Nacho's play here will make more sense to you later on. I have them on null-town atm, but it's slowly accelerating into more town. I think I might be being overly wary on the slot.
AFAIK Cabd hasn't done anything that's swayed me either way, but ffery has been screwing with my head. I synced with pie briefly a little while ago (she still hasn't read the thread and I don't have an eta on it either, I'm sorry) and she said she'll be able to plug ffery as town/scum easy so I'm just ignoring the slot now.
NMS is a townread but I feel like we don't really have to worry because their slot will sort itself if they're still alive after N1 getting True Love.

I do appreciate your more direct way of speaking, but don't worry about it too much my dude. I wasn't being too serious earlier, and the mixup on 'what are you interested' was just grammatical.

Nominate: Notice me Senpai

-HS

I kind of get the sense from this post these two are not partnered.

It's not a take it to the bank thing or anything, just the being terrified to ask Maria thing felt non partners at first glance.

[Imperium]

I feel like there's been too much focus on the bp claim, mental note that I want to look st the attacks when I've actually caught up. I'll explain why I don't like the attacks later too.

[Imperium]

Clumsy head checking in. Sorry we've been kind of absent, I've been working a lot this week so I could save up for a trip that I'm going on tomorrow. As such, I'll be MIA all day tomorrow. Things should return to normal after that though for the most part.


I don't see myself voting Lovebirds or Scott/Ramona in the forseeable future. They're my top 2 town reads. I'll have to sit down with Shazhead when I get back and hammer out our biggest scumreads.

-Clumsy

Again in the realm of offbeat townreads I like this post.

Still want a response to why they think they'd be able to read us early.

[Imperium]

Hey I'm sorry, I still haven't been able to sync with mastina and my depression is peaking aside from that so I'm not catching up again today - I know I should and this is really shitty of me given you already have one head that's MIA but I just can't right now.
I think we're basically waiting on Ari head of Sword of Damocles at this point, and need to sync on Scott & Ramona and Lovebirds. I also am waiting for mastina to check in with me on my thoughts on Devils when she catches up.
I'm at about page 17, haven't caught up from there. I just thought I should check in and let you guys know what I was waiting for to the best of my ability today. Sorry.

I hope you're feeling better!

[Imperium]

I was told Ginngie is here.
<3

Of course right now I'm not

exactly

here (I've been struggling), but I'll figure out a way to get in.
There are two types of conftown.
The type that do fuckall with it.
And the type who drive games forward.

I'd rather avoid the former if at all possible and right now I'm most decidedly not the latter so I need to fix it and will do so...soonish.

But for the moment, that needed to be said.
<3 Ginngie.

Okay so when I said at page 11 I had nms as a town read it was actually influenced in part by this post. I haven't been good about completely following along this game, mostly I look at a page here or there when procrastinating on sometng else or laying down to sleep. Anyway, I saw this post whenever and I just liked the chutzpah of considering themselves confirmed town when from what I can tell not everyone here is even town reading them.

Again not a bank tell but I just liked it.

[Imperium]

But come to think of it, I'm pretty unimpressed with what Andy chose to engage nacho with.

[Imperium]

Okay so I had *formation of thoights* building when I'd skimmed gingie's posting here and in the neighborhood, but skimming I thought I could miss something but I think her slot is scum.

There are things I believe I should be seeing from gin upon replacing into a game with nacho and Mastina and even to a certain extent Aristophanes and maybe to an even lesser extent me and maybe Maria but definitely definitely nacho and mastina. They have a hydra and gin has been known to boast about the gamesolving they can do if they can get on board with each other day one.

I'm not seeing anything close to what I expected to see from her if her slot is town. What she does feel like though is someone who is stuck in a minefield they don't know how they should navigate, and that makes me think she's just scum.

[Imperium]

Also this feeling is what is making me think Senpai is town also.

[Imperium]

I was told Ginngie is here.
<3

Of course right now I'm not

exactly

here (I've been struggling), but I'll figure out a way to get in.
There are two types of conftown.
The type that do fuckall with it.
And the type who drive games forward.

I'd rather avoid the former if at all possible and right now I'm most decidedly not the latter so I need to fix it and will do so...soonish.

But for the moment, that needed to be said.
<3 Ginngie.

hey girl <3

Stiff

[Imperium]

Claiming BP: I have no issue with I'd perk a brow but I would be fine with it
saying "oh protective role's dont go on us" makes me question but still that wouldn't be too big an issue

What I have an ISSUE WITH is them going after the true love thing when they think it's going to give them IC because that makes 0 fucking sense
~Maria

I still don't get how you go from "bullet proof IC" to scum

They provided reasoning as to why they believe it'd be in the game, and it sounds pretty fucking nice to have.

So 2+?=4

where is the last 2 that makes it scummy?

Sounds like she knows the slot is town and is being protown about it, but at the same time not interacting with mastina how she should.

[Imperium]

Tammy I'm here if you want to bounce any thoughts around. You seem to be catching up quite well on your own, though.

I might, but probably more when I'm fully caught up. I might only have about a half an hour left in me though.

[Imperium]

Maybe because it's a uPick?

1. uPick has as much chance to get strongman as normal game.
2. Alignment was rolled before the roles were created. Even more chance of scum-specific roles showing up.

Not sure if I already touched this but this only helps feed my questioning.

I haven't read or seen any evidence to say there isn't a strongman in this set up and say it with such confidence.

I haven't seen evidence that there could be one and say it with such confidence.

- Scott

but we don't know what anything is. You just shut the idea down of a strongman down real quick.

Is this really what you want to focus on? Whether or not someone believes there may or may not be a role in the game?

[Imperium]

Gin's slot is uhhh...something I'm more weirded out by them I guess is the best way to put it not in a scummy or towny way just weird.

Cabd here. Let's talk about this.

What's there to talk on/What do you wanna talk about?
~Maria

What weirds you out? Why is it null?

It's hard to explain the best way I can put it is I look at their iso and raise my eyebrow I'm bias to sr it a bit since it was devils gear (right?) but I can't really pinpoint posts that I look at and say "this is why you're scummy" I just get an icky feeling and it's hard to say why
~Maria

I just want to laugh right here because a couple days ago when I skimmed and got here I told nacho when Maria says icky feeling is exactly right, but I figured out why it was icky. Anyway I liked this post.

[Imperium]

Nacho/tammy! I've played with both of you (I think) so I'm hoping my meta pulls me through, it's what I'm tryin' to base any read I have on y'all off of!

-Shaziro too

Hi Shaziro! Can you answer the questions I asked you guys?

[Imperium]

I am back from my V/LA. (Although I will have another one next weekend SORRY IT'S SUMMER WHAT DO YOU EXPECT )

Did a brief catchup, I'm planning to read more in depth in the next few days. There's one thing I'd like to mention right now though. Several people asked me about my reasons for scumreading Senpai. At least one person (morph, if not others) assumed that the BP claim and request for nominations was my only reason to scumread them. It's not, though it is a move I think scum are more likely to make.

I don't like their approach to the game in general and I don't like many of their interactions specifically. I'm planning to make a case in the near future but for now I'll list some of the posts I don't like:
129- a conclusion that doesn't quite follow from the post it responds to, and might be early discrediting of a townread
143- feels very forced and a bit too defensive in response to an early vote
147- feels like sucking up, trying to talk down their reputation to Maria, and an OMGUS-ish implicit threat (stating a reason why scum would push them)
193- sounds like trying to play the voice of reason
239- full of meta and most of it is really shallow and simplistic; also, it admits the fallibility of the meta but doesn't weaken the read accordingly
257- quoted posts don't seem particularly hard to fake as scum
353- the whole "not entirely comfortable giving it to anyone else" sounds way more informed than it should and doesn't strike me as inquisitive town who want to learn more about the mechanic but rather declarative scum who have found what they want to do and are trying to make it happen.
-smart

I don't remember but are these things you pointed out or talked about earlier?

[Imperium]

wait what the fuck is the scum slip?

Also if everyone could give their read on NMS that's be great

Why?

[Imperium]

Gingie - what do you think of the Aristophanes slot?

Also also what makes Maria's hate on the bp claim different in your mind to the "flavor can't help" stink she made in dragon ball z?

[Imperium]

Also mastina what do you think of my take on ginngie?

[Imperium]

Alright, let's look at Jaestina.

Their earlygame is very concerned with the mystery power and making sure that they secure it, and making sure everyone knows they must be town for having their flavor released publicly. While I don't disagree with either of these in theory, I think they went a little overboard with it, as if they have to convince everyone of it, including themselves.

As their Iso goes on though, I like most of their posts. Their stuff around Chick and Hatred is well thought out and has a basis in experience (Civ Mafia), And I think their response to Lil Chicky Vert voting "No One" was reasonable, all things considered.

270 is a good readslist and the reasons make a lot of sense from a town perspective. I'm pretty uncomfortable with them listing Hatred up so high, but it's without context so I'm hoping there was a good reason other than just "my townreads say so" because come on...

But from this point on I see townposts so I'd say I'm comfortable with this slot!
I'll have to talk to Smart about this because obviously we're not on the same page here..

- Ari

This post reads nicely on the surface but it's lacking a distinct amount of free flowing exclamation points. (This is actually a serious comment)

[Imperium]

I got farther than I thought I'd get tonight. My other half just got home and I'm going to spend some time with him before I crash, but I will finish catching up tomorrow. I did read the morph case on sod; that's a read I will comment on but will probably leave to nacho to sort mostly because while I tank I can identify Aristophanes town in certain situations, I think nacho will be able to draw out his alignment regardless.

I'll comment on the case when I've read the other half I remember seeing and when I've fully caught up.

Good night all! <3 (this includes you voyeurs who try to pass yourself off as mods too!)

[Imperium]

*while I think

(iPad)

[Imperium]

406 feels really genuine from Nacho and I don't think it's in an NAI way.

What baffles me is that Andy read that, supposedly, didn't interact with it or around it, and still claims he's getting no town feels from nachos posting. It probably wouldn't strike me as notable if not for the claim he can get a read on nacho.

[Imperium]

One of the things I want to happen really soon in this game is for you and nacho/tammy to sort each other.

Yeah about that...

Early game I was concerned that you seemed to be playing up to us a bit when GIF was voting for us. I don't think you have a clue how to read either one of us, so your assertion that you even know how after how laundry mafia played out felt really weird. Nacho said that you always think you can read him when you can't though.

?

There were more to my concerns/stuff there. I'm not sure what this is supposed to do or mean sorting wise?

[Imperium]

@NMS would you say that you're letting your public flavor influence how you play and how you expect people to read you? (Not saying this is the case, I'm legitimately curious about your approach regarding this though)

Can't speak for mastina on this but the answer from me is: Nope.

I expect people to read me as town when I'm town because I quite frankly consider my town play to be obvtown. Sometimes I start off slow and pick up later. I don't think I was expecting to be read as town earlier though, my issue was a lack of people reading me on actual content and instead focusing primarily on mechanical shit and the fact we wanted true love.
I kind of expect people I've played with before to be able to read me easier, especially if they've seen both my scumplay and my townplay because my scumplay is lolawful comparatively speaking. Basically; my expectations of how people should read me are purely because of my confidence in my towngame/scumgame being easy to spot. It's arrogance and burden of proficiency more than anything.

I could have written this post.

This isn't game relevant, just made me smile.

[Imperium]

This game is on my radar. Existential crisis is a good word for my state of mind today though. I'll get back to this soon, I promise.

~Ramona

I hope you feel better!

[Imperium]

I am caught up!

Well with the exception of full reading morph's sod case which I want to read when not on my phone and can click for context.

I'll give my thoughts in a bit when not on phone too!

[Imperium]

It would be nice to see Aristophanes response to the case

[Imperium]

One of the things I want to happen really soon in this game is for you and nacho/tammy to sort each other.

Yeah about that...

Early game I was concerned that you seemed to be playing up to us a bit when GIF was voting for us. I don't think you have a clue how to read either one of us, so your assertion that you even know how after how laundry mafia played out felt really weird. Nacho said that you always think you can read him when you can't though.

?

There were more to my concerns/stuff there. I'm not sure what this is supposed to do or mean sorting wise?

Are you mad at me about this? I didn't mean to be rude but it freaks me the fuck out when someone misreads someone in one game and then in the next proclaims that they can read them or that it's not too hard to read them. You did buddy up to me at the beginning of the Thing when you were scum, so it's not unreasonable for me to wonder if you're doing that here. The concern on your alignment didn't go away when the only real attempt to interact and "sort" nacho amounted to somewhat discrediting his ability to read morph because y'all fooled a bunch of people in a game four years ago. You didn't seem interested in talking about the why of that read. It was further compounded by you seeming to seek permission to scum read us by morph at the time of the neighborhood reveal.

Sorry if my wording was abrupt? but based on the fact that the last game we played together you read both of us wrong (I believe you did come around on nacho), I don't think you know how to read either of us and it freaks me out when you think it will be easy. And if you are town here, my belief that you don't is validated by you not getting any town feels from nacho's posts.

I'm glad you are playing, I wish I felt better about your alignment.

[Imperium]

Sorry I did not come back yesterday. I meant to but I was a bit hungover and ended up napping and getting distracted.

I have some grading and reporting that has to be done today but I'm working from home so I'll be doing both and will be around.

[Imperium]

I think the only real town reads I'm confident calling town are burning and morph, though calling burning confident town gives me little heart palpitations, but I was never really confident in my ability to read him and am leaning quite a bit on the strength of ffery' read.

I still like jaestina but their lack of presence starts to worry me. It's probably just not alignment indicative but it's just a little thing I feel antsy about. Doesn't negate the points I liked though.

There are various things I like about Scott and Ramona, clumsy Phoenix, and lovebirds in individual posts and probably in that order of how much I like them actually (and for those of you who know me are you as shocked as me that I actually have an order?). So I like individual posts but I'm not completely confident calling any of this group town yet. I hope it's as easy as the final two are scum, but it's rarely that easy, so it either of the final two are town then it's this group I hope the remaining reside.

Damocles says some things that sound fine but I'm not much moved. I'd like to see ari posting (I realize he's v/la or something) but he should be easy to read for some people here.

I do think the real humans are scum though.

I'm hoping to sync up with nacho, but I'm not sure he'll get here tomorrow.

[Imperium]

VOTE: the real humans

[Imperium]

I don't.

[Imperium]

Oh that's right, the reason why I asked if you played with Mastin is because she has a habit of posting a reads list in the beginning of games including people who haven't posted in positions that range from town to scum.

[Imperium]

Nominate for cupid's arrow to strike: Imperium

[Imperium]

Hi! I like that somebody pointed out that Devil's push on us was bad, but I'm biased of course.

Imperium I wanted to townread, it seemed like they were asking good questions and being towny as hell. But then I realized that y'all seem to be asking lots of questions but I don't really see you doing much with the information or making pushes. Seems like a lot of "This post seems towny" when you do analyze things, and just questioning otherwise. Can you speak to that, either head?

-Shaziro

Asking questions and interacting is how we form our reads. Neither head is going to make a push until we have something to push. Sometimes the town reads come first. Was there any information in particular you thought we should do something with that we didn't?

Clumsy - this is one i asked.

[Imperium]

Imperium is a little worrying, because Nacho usually seems pretty town fairly early for me when they are town, but they haven't really gotten into the game too much yet. I don't know if that's a scum tell necessarily though. I'll have a stronger read once they get more into the game (like your truly, >_>).

Oh I remember I wanted to ask about this. Why do you think this? When we played in dragon ball z together, you spent most of day one suspecting us? (You only started town reading us when nacho did some extensive ISO dives and we started defending you while others attacked you and you noted that our defense of you might be why you were softening on us?)

Clumsy - This is the other I asked.

[Imperium]

I prefer Humans too!

Kind of for selfish reasons. They're the ones I think have the most chance to flip scum AND because then we can talk freely freely in the neighborhood.

[Imperium]

I like watching you reminisce. I followed that game.

Empire refers to it as the game that shall not be mentioned still to this day I believe.

[Imperium]

Doubt he's going to show back up.

Doubt ginngie will either

[Imperium]

Oh today's not Saturday. I thoight he was really late.

[Imperium]

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

DAMOCLES YOU'RE NEXT

Why?

[Imperium]

I'm working on a catchup now; I find it helpful to engage in the thread at the same time while catching up even if I haven't read everything, so let me know if there's anything that you want to talk about.

[Imperium]

That's quite possibly the most useless answer you could have given.

[Imperium]

It might just be an impression that I've gotten from skimming, but I thought that you had paranoia on me - was I wrong?
If not, why not? I haven't done jack shit and while Tammy is *probably* out of her scum range here I don't expect you to know why. Do you just believe morph that we're town? Do you really think that I wouldn't emotionally manipulate as scum?

[Imperium]

Do you have a case on Sword beyond "they're lurking and I don't agree with some of the points they're making"? Because from where I'm standing that's morph's case and it's a hot pile of garbage and you seem to be hiding behind an active town player like you did when you were scum and we were young - did you really think that the game would be this easy?

[Imperium]

Why are you clearing Clumsy?

[Imperium]

Not a bad reason at all.

[Imperium]

I'd really like Andy to explain the case on SoD.

[Imperium]

But I'm guessing that's what he's working on right now; pretty jazzed for the HYPE TRAIN wall he must be cooking up right now.

[Imperium]

So if you had concerns with me, why didn't you care about talking with me about SoD?
Why would you say we're powerlynching them tomorrow because they're scum when you don't particularly think they're scum?

[Imperium]

We've played games like this before, Nacho, where we won via POE. Like Xenogears.

Excellent point - did you know that games can also be lost via POE?
Like I have no idea why you're bringing this up at all - are you trying to say that you've decided to stop playing the game because we've already won?

[Imperium]

as well as I knew you.

You say you know me. I'd like to think you know me.
So I'm expecting you to sort me and then when I set aside and start a jam session you brush me aside and refuse to talk to me because the game's already solved.

My big intent here is just getting you to talk; you're not townreading me, I'm not townreading you, I'm seeing aside basically the next five hours to hash out stuff and while I had some bluster and jackassery to make sure you got drawn in and weren't at DnD or something the only thing I actually want is to talk about things and how you're viewing the game. I don't think "we might have a POE" is a good reason to stop talking; there's always the chance of someone cutting in deep into the POE and if we give them the chance to skate the rest of the game and that's how games like Xenologue happened.

[Imperium]

honestly, being able to talk through night is great for Cabd/etc but I was really looking forward to a 2-3 day real life reprieve from this game where I don't have to look at this for awhile.

Night-talk is great.

Now I'm not a "contradictions!" type of guy but I don't understand your mindset here - why would you go "yay night talk!" when you were really feeling "boo night talk!"?

[Imperium]

We are voting Damocles, Nacho.
Maria preferred Damocles and I preferred DGslot.

You preferred Gin-HS for a reason; you thought there was more against them and you thought Damocles might be town.
Why not reassess based on the flip? Maria mentioned that she didn't want to vote Gin-HS because of the people on him - who were these people and did her opinion of them change after the flip?

[Imperium]

Also, hi, I'm here.
You want me to talk about Damocles?
Ari is 100% missing from the game.
Smart is so much of a non-presence/non-mover as well.

And that's why Maria is spearheading this push?

[Imperium]

Cabd is afraid he's going to die and has some big old 'in case I die lynch Damocles' thing and this alleviates some of the pressure off him.
I'm happy for him.

Okay. This wasn't immediately clear in your initial post; the far more potent emotion seemed to be the sadness at having to post in the thread in the first place which is why "YAY! NIGHT TALK!" seemed strange.

[Imperium]

I think we've spent like maybe 10 minutes talking about this game outside of the thread.
Seriously.

And this explains a piece of the disjointedness; I was expecting Maria to have more nuance on the read if she felt strongly about it because I've never seen her push for a flat lurker lynch in the past.

I agree that lurking/lack of content is alignment indicative on a case by case basis, but even then it typically had more nuance than that; you had players like ika/Aristophanes who lurk often but who basically couldn't play as scum ever versus players like ABR who often didn't give enough of a fuck to play as scum at all but had some capability (but often got up to hard town levels) and players like Peacebringer who just refused to play as scum every single time.

My concern with how you're approaching this is that you seemed pretty set on SoD not only being tomorrow's lynch, but also on him being scum; when I pressed you on it a bit you talked more about how you were doing it for Maria (although you also felt decently about it) and now you're acting like it's a very strong scumread of yours despite not talking that way moments earlier. I'm unclear on what parts of this read are you, what parts of the read are you doing it for Maria/morph and would appreciate if you took a moment to help me untangle it if I'm managing to say anything that's making sense right now.

[Imperium]

Who is your #2 scumread and how far behind are they?

[Imperium]

The second thing that's kind of tweaking me is that I'm struggling to understand your approach to me so far.

One thing that you pointed out earlier helped - it's not paranoia (active) but rather a lack of a townread but I'd expect a lack of a townread to culminate in paranoia at some point and it doesn't really seem like that's happened. I also haven't really seen you talking about anything in our posts or making the effort to read us. Were you just expecting ~general effort~ from me and I wasn't delivering? Was it absences that were bothering you specifically? Was there a depth in my reads that was lacking? Was there something in my tone that was missing? Generally when people have a lack of a townread on me instead of something like a scumread it's because something is lacking - what was it and why didn't you look for it?

[Imperium]

Could you talk about your general concerns about Jae+Mastina?

[Imperium]

One part of me is happy we're gonna win easy other part is sad because I wanted to do more
~Maria

You can talk about your scumread on Damocles if you'd like - Andrius's reason is pretty much "lurking" but I'm expecting your read to have a bit more nuance than that.

[Imperium]

Let's see if I can find that post in Laundry that better explains this.

Okay. I'll wait to respond until you have the whole thing composed.

[Imperium]

HYPE TRAIN was excitement over lynching my #1 scumread and being right.
Games are, actually, this easy at times.

Especially when the scum don't bother to post.

Except you didn't vote your supposed #1 scumread.

What do you think about Andrius's reasons for being uncomfortable with you?

[Imperium]

I'm more holding out hope, Nacho, that you'll show up here and we can sit down (like we're doing) and have a jam session to sort this out.
Its just earlier you had no interest in sorting me which always strikes me as odd since you know me well enough to insta-lynch me if you think I'm scum.
Like, we had a time where we could near-confident sort each other for days (until the paranoia crept in) OR we'd just burn the other down instantly.
The fact that you didn't walk in here going 'talking to andy takes five minutes to sort and we'll be great' is always concerning and the reason you fooled me in the beginning of LAUNDRY was because you immediately set out to understand Tammy and I. (I didn't know you two were a thing back then.)

Long ago there was a time when we would instantly sort each other and attempt to destroy games before the paranoia set in. (Xenoblade, Xenogears)
I truly believe that if you're town and you scumread me you would want me dead IMMEDIATELY because the read is literally so strong and you wouldn't pass it up for anything but like actually confirmed scum.
I was pinged in Laundry because you were calling me scum and yet were disinterested in lynching me.

I think I said this in Laundry as well, but I think it takes time to get back into that groove again. I've changed a lot as a player over the last four years (and haven't changed at all in other ways!!), but I never had an expectation that I would be able to read you the way I did back then. The way that we got to that level of mutual reading wasn't because we had some mutual spiritual powers, but because we had played a lot together and we put work into it and sorted through our doubts time and time and time again.

You're completely right that you were one of my first priorities to sort, but not the first - my first priority ended up being morph this game simply because "ffery's glorious return" + neighborhood, which extended to trying to sort HS first because I had a great experience with her in a recent neighborhood and I thought having an all-town neighborhood in a role madness game would be pretty beneficial. After my initial burst of time, I ended up getting dragged away by work and not being able to stay up overnight on my days off (and fire emblem ), but I waited to sort you because I wanted to spend time actually sitting down and talking with you instead of pulling off an insane tilt at you and hoping I could soulread you as a result.

You're also completely correct on how I'd treat you if I had a strong scumread on you, but I've never reached that point here. I've reached a point here with you where I've thought "hmm maybe he might be scum", I'm concerned by this but I'm not sure if it's alignment indicative by this, I'm concerned by this but I'm not sure it was fair - in the past, I didn't have to worry about a lot of the "what ifs" because I knew better from evidence in games that we were playing together or just recently playing together but now I'm trying to sort out reasonable expectations from unreasonable ones.

[Imperium]

DG slot's nomination of us was a clear fucking scum defense/nom of town and it was what majorly pinged me about them and was what I threw to mastina and then pushed mastina to actually read out of sequence to confirm my thoughts there. Ginngie's carry on was clearly him trying to buddy us/defend us and that's also not how scum goes about defending a partner. It's too fucking blatant.

There's an implication that this is a universal truth but I don't really agree with that; I haven't read so I don't have an opinion but someone disagreeing with something (even if that something is obvious) doesn't necessarily make them scum.

[Imperium]

Yet... And here's the big kicker....
I literally can't have that nuanced of a read as scum.
Because scum can't genuinely scumread someone.

This is an argument that's too heavily rooted in semantics in my opinion; Andy could have said "I think they are either secretly scumreading me or I think they are posturing for the opportunity to leave me open as a possible fake scumread later" and his language would have been more precise but it's obvious why he opted for the simpler point instead.

I don't think you've actually addressed his concerns here.

[Imperium]

Interestingly enough, was just looking for something before I asked you a couple of questions.

[Imperium]

Also, not sure if you're aware or not but the primary posting head right now is Nacho.

[Imperium]

For me it's mostly due to vote counts given how everything is gone along with my townreads it just makes sense for sword to be the last scum we didn't mind DG getting hammered I was just more confident in sword the flip just helps if they're not scum it's Scott/Ram although I doubt it

Could you expand more on the first part?
I'm not very good at VCA in general (when I've attempted it, it hasn't helped - I've seen a lot of VCA that acts as a crappy excuse to confirm previously held reads) so it would be helpful to me if you detailed what you mean when you think that vca points to sword.

Why do you think Scott and Ramona is scum if Damocles isn't? Why do you think NMS is town?

[Imperium]

And that disconnect you observed was a disconnect he already talked about; while there are advantages to night talk, he wanted a break from reading.

I can sympathize with that.

[Imperium]

Wasn't scumreading them over Sword until their push ended up not being on TRH with Andy touting that as his top scumread. Especially given Maria had "unvoted" our slot so it's not like their vote was DOING anything else. At the time DG wasn't the leading wagon, either, IIRC. It was Sword. It makes sense for a TRH partner.

Why do you think it makes sense for a partner?
The main scum motivation behind not voting a partner is taking momentum away from their wagon - do you feel that Lovebirds not voting Gin-HS when they did took momentum away from their wagon in a significant way? Do you think that they thought it would?

One thing that stands out to me about that whole progression is Andy hammering through the lynch when I asked for the opportunity to catch up; Andy netting the lynch before I returned meant that there was a wasted opportunity for me to catch up and derail the TRS wagon for them (which I have the charisma to do, and have certainly managed to do in the past) - if he really wanted to give them a chance to live like you're implying here, I think he would have taken the opportunity in most situations. Do you disagree?

[Imperium]

Then Andrius started the whole thing about Sword and his #1 scumread "we lynched scum" bullshit.

Why did this bother you?

[Imperium]

I continue not to understand any of your role-related play, but I also continue to townread you.

[Imperium]

I buy that you might have become an innocent child, but that's useless on a slot that's not getting lynched and that's extra ridiculously useless on a slot that could confirm itself just fine.

I don't know if you're gambiting at all, but we're probably at a stage at the game where gambiting about roles does far more harm than good.

[Imperium]

JaeReed, Maria, did you both decide to abandon me?

[Imperium]

Then Andrius started the whole thing about Sword and his #1 scumread "we lynched scum" bullshit.

Why did this bother you?

Because he

didn't

lynch scum.
They parked on two slots all fucking day.

I didn't vote Two Real Humans.
I didn't do jack shit to get them lynched.

I was still happy to see the flip because I thought Gin looked really scummy.

There's no prerequisite to being happy about a flip other than thinking a person is town but as I'm writing this I'm guessing that I am misunderstanding your point because I don't think you'd push on this point?

[Imperium]

I feel that he could have thought it would, yes, then when there was no chance of saving them he wanted to be as vocal about scumreading them as possible.

The time between their slot voting Sword and Andrius asking to lynch TRH was like 16 hours - the only thing that happened in between was the Tammy vote but if he thought Tammy wasn't going to vote TRH then he wasn't reading her posts at all.

[Imperium]

So your argument basically depends on a scenario where Maria and Andrius set out to save their partner, see one vote on the counterwagon and immediately give up but don't remove their vote; I just don't think this is the case. I think you're too heavily focusing on them having the vote down on the slot when I don't think that their vote matters as much as their words do and I think they dedicated as many words if not more to pushing TRH than they did Damocles.

@JaeReed

[Imperium]

why my SR on them is such an issue

For them or for me?

[Imperium]

For you, I can understand their kneejerk reaction to being scumread because I get like that, too. Especially by a slot you already felt suspicious of.
I guess you're just trying to play mediator?

I don't understand why I think your read on them is an issue and this certainly isn't one of the times I'm playing mediator.
I've pressed you to answer specific concerns that you glossed over because you glossed over them and I find interactions to be more meaningful when both sides are interpreting one another correctly. I've pressed certain points of your case because they are doubts I have about them; if you have compelling reasons to dispel my doubts, I have things to think about. If my doubts are valid and you find them compelling, then your focus moves somewhere else.

[Imperium]

oh that's not what you were saying was it

[Imperium]

I'm not gonna reread the game; this isn't a game that it seems like I need to reread.
Just seems like I need to talk with Ari.

[Imperium]

{Morph, Burning, Senpai}
{Lovebirds, Scott & Ramona}
{Clumsy}
{Damocles}

[Imperium]

Ari - Please start posting and please interact with the case against you!

[Imperium]

Hi! I like that somebody pointed out that Devil's push on us was bad, but I'm biased of course.

Imperium I wanted to townread, it seemed like they were asking good questions and being towny as hell. But then I realized that y'all seem to be asking lots of questions but I don't really see you doing much with the information or making pushes. Seems like a lot of "This post seems towny" when you do analyze things, and just questioning otherwise. Can you speak to that, either head?

-Shaziro

Asking questions and interacting is how we form our reads. Neither head is going to make a push until we have something to push. Sometimes the town reads come first. Was there any information in particular you thought we should do something with that we didn't?

Clumsy - this is one i asked.

Imperium is a little worrying, because Nacho usually seems pretty town fairly early for me when they are town, but they haven't really gotten into the game too much yet. I don't know if that's a scum tell necessarily though. I'll have a stronger read once they get more into the game (like your truly, >_>).

Oh I remember I wanted to ask about this. Why do you think this? When we played in dragon ball z together, you spent most of day one suspecting us? (You only started town reading us when nacho did some extensive ISO dives and we started defending you while others attacked you and you noted that our defense of you might be why you were softening on us?)

Clumsy - This is the other I asked.

Wouldn't mind answers to these questions clumsy.

[Imperium]

OOPS

[Imperium]

I mean I'm gonna vote Damocles in about 8 hours.

I might read through Clumsy before then. I probably won't.

[Imperium]

Vote: SoD

[Imperium]

Y'all got roleblocked by two people too

[Imperium]

That was philoctetes who was left on the island of Lemnos for ten years after getting a snake bite that smelled bad?

[Imperium]

Oh Eurydice died of a snake bite on their wedding day

[Imperium]

That was philoctetes who was left on the island of Lemnos for ten years after getting a snake bite that smelled bad?

Wow those guys are dicks