Micro 736: Mafia in Blitztown (Game Over)

[Mjollnir]

Oh for shit's sake, someone's lynched before I even got to post! I was literally asleep the whole day

I've never played a blitz game before so I dunno if it's the norm to hammer someone on Page 2, Cloud how was Echo saying you were impatient AI?

[Mjollnir]

Ircher, was there a reason you put Echo at L-1?

[Mjollnir]

Well apparently that's not the norm for a Blitz game, so Ircher any Cloud I'm very interested to hear from.

[Mjollnir]

*and, my phone autocorrect sucks.

[Mjollnir]

His vote made little as scum in retrospect but it kinda pisses me

So at the time what made you think it was AI?

[Mjollnir]

In retrospect meaning after he flipped town you realised it was a town vote?

[Mjollnir]

Ok..yes you definitely hammered very quickly.

What was so bad about what he said in your opinion that it warranted a Page 2 hammer? Why did it make you so sure he was scum that you decided to end the day there? I would agree that impatience is not AI, but neither really is pointing it out and voting based on it while ignoring the others was unless you were feeling one of the others voting for him was his scumbuddy. Did you have a team in mind at the time?

[Mjollnir]

VOTE: Echo

5 votes to kill right?

Why are you asking this?

My question is, why the fuck was this killed?

Why was anybody killed? There was so little to go off you could basically say the same about any potential NK.

[Mjollnir]

Ok..yes you definitely hammered very quickly.

What was so bad about what he said in your opinion that it warranted a Page 2 hammer? Why did it make you so sure he was scum that you decided to end the day there? I would agree that impatience is not AI, but neither really is pointing it out and voting based on it while ignoring the others was unless you were feeling one of the others voting for him was his scumbuddy. Did you have a team in mind at the time?

No but he shouldve addressed litterally the qhole table voting them over me just being impatient, i do disagree anout the "but neither really is pointing it out and voting based on it while ignoring the others " not being AI, i really do think his post was terrible considering he was being voted. But yes indeed i arguably hammer too fast.
No i didnt have a scumbuddy in mind nor a team, 2 people including you didnt post at the time

Ok, if not for scumbuddies, why was this so terrible?

[Mjollnir]

Would you expect town to go to the gallows fighting then?

[Mjollnir]

Would you expect town to go to the gallows fighting then?

i would expect town to try to find scum voting them on L-1 so freaking fast and not give a fuck about me you know, town stuff

As Screen says, the only one of those that would have made sense would be Ircher, as the other three were doing this during RVS, it was literally the first three votes of the game. And none of them posted after Ircher put them at L-1 so none of them can be questioned as to why their votes were still on him.

You raise a possibly valid point about not suspecting Ircher for being impatient though.

[Mjollnir]

Why was anybody killed? There was so little to go off you could basically say the same about any potential NK.

Do you actually believe this?

Yes, there was two pages of content and nobody really did anything particularly town in nature, so the NK probably had little if any reason behind it. Wouldn't surprise me if they simply went after someone they perceived to be a good player or something.

[Mjollnir]

I know i do

Well yes but why lynch him right there rather than maybe wait for more evidence to present itself?

[Mjollnir]

Considering Echo was calling Kopkirk scum, you think that there's the same amount of gain killing Hopkirk than other players in teh game?
Just to make sure you're serious here.

I suppose when you put it that way you may have a point. Didn't consider that.

Then again the reasoning Echo used to link the two was flimsy at best. I would hardly have called it a credible link, but for argument's sake let's say it was something substantive, I would still say the fact Hopkirk was the NK doesn't really say much, it's either Cloud!scum getting rid of Hopkirk to kill off ideas of a potential scumteam or scum killing Hopkirk because they know doing so implicates Cloud!town, it's a maze of WIFOM.

[Mjollnir]

Cloud why did you townread those players, gut or something more?

[Mjollnir]

That sounds like a stretch to create winfom

Ok, so which of those two scenarios would you say is more likely?

[Mjollnir]

I'm not sure we're on the same page Screen, are you saying Vedith trying to do NK Analysis is a stretch to create WIFOM? If so then I misunderstood what you were saying before, I thought you were saying I was stretching calling it WIFOM.

[Mjollnir]

It's a blitz game and pretty much nothing was happening. What better way to get the game moving than bringing someone to L-1?

I didn't expect a hammer; I simply wanted to get the game moving.

Well I'm going to assume you have an opinion on the hammer then?

Did you believe Echo to be scum?

[Mjollnir]

I want to lynch out of the three that wasn't on the ML.

One of the three not on the lynch? Why's that?

[Mjollnir]

VOTE: srceenplay

Because they were the third vote on the wagon.

Is this the scumhunting you were referring to in Post 38?

I suppose that makes Screen, it's probable one of them was distancing themselves from that. Only slight issue is that some of those votes were RVS, granted one is dead and the other is you so you're clearly not gonna be scumreading yourself, but there is still Vedith, who didn't post between L-1 and hammer so didn't get a chance to unvote when it started looking serious.

[Mjollnir]

It's a blitz game and pretty much nothing was happening. What better way to get the game moving than bringing someone to L-1?

I didn't expect a hammer; I simply wanted to get the game moving.

Well I'm going to assume you have an opinion on the hammer then?

Did you believe Echo to be scum?

Not really, I just noted it was L-2 and thought I could get the game moving by doing an L-1.

As far as the hammer goes -- I was quite surprised and while I am leaning towards scum!Cloud, I'm still considering what scum!Cloud has to gain from making such a blatant move that is bound to cause him trouble the following day.

Why take the risk then if you truly didn't believe Echo to be scum then? I don't get it..did you seriously expect that might not be one of the possible outcomes in a game specifically advertsied as being fast-paced that someone might get a hair-trigger? Also what was wrong with the pace as it was? I mean, a page in four hours isn't quite maybe "Blitz" but what was wrong with the idea of letting it develop by itself organically or maybe just giving it a bit of time?

[Mjollnir]

UNVOTE:

REASON:

I was going to vote srceenplay from the wagon because of them being 3rd vote. That was the only thing I had from D1.

However, i love their idea of voting off the wagon. I think that's exactly why someone on the wagon was killed.

Makes sense scum would vote too. Like if scum want to kill on the wagon, I think town should want to kill off the wagon.

VOTE: esires

Why only come up with this when people start to question your lack of scumhunting before? Was there something wrong with your previous vote and reasoning that makes you suddenly doubt it?

I'm not sure I understand why your theory is sound, I think you'll have to come up with better reasoning than simply trying to guess scum NK motivation. Also if you are going with that, why go for esires specifically?

There's a distinct lack of town motivation behind what you have been doing so far, my vote would currently be on you but I'm about to go to bed and I don't want my vote sitting on someone in a game like this where I'll be gone for a while.

[Mjollnir]

Like you dont get to vote me when your push is absolutely terrible when ure L-1 and you dont try to scumhunt into your wagon

You've said this before, why do you feel the need to keep re-iterating why your hammer was so innocent when nobody has asked you to?

[Mjollnir]

i was just approving the post

Really? The post seemed to suggest that only Ircher should have been put under scrutiny by Echo from your perspective (as obviously you had not voted for him yet). However you have previously suggested that Echo should have been suspicious of everyone in his wagon:

No but he shouldve addressed

litterally the qhole table voting them

over me just being impatient, i do disagree anout the "but neither really is pointing it out and voting based on it while ignoring the others " not being AI, i really do think his post was terrible considering he was being voted. But yes indeed i arguably hammer too fast.
No i didnt have a scumbuddy in mind nor a team, 2 people including you didnt post at the time

(bolding and underlining done by me)

So what is it about the post that you approve?

(mod edit- fixed broken url tags)

[Mjollnir]

Ah hell, mod can you fix that mess above? Sorry about that..

[Mjollnir]

VOTE: srceenplay

Because they were the third vote on the wagon.

Is this the scumhunting you were referring to in Post 38?

I suppose that makes Screen, it's probable one of them was distancing themselves from that. Only slight issue is that some of those votes were RVS, granted one is dead and the other is you so you're clearly not gonna be scumreading yourself, but there is still Vedith, who didn't post between L-1 and hammer so didn't get a chance to unvote when it started looking serious.

I'm in the UK. I went to bed.
Try again.

I'm not sure what you mean, try what again? I was only saying that made sense with a caveat.

[Mjollnir]

Mjollnir seems like he's asking questions to seems busy. I wonder if he can summarize what all he's gained from the questions.

Sure,

Ircher I was initially most suspicious of, but his explaination of why he put Echo at L-1 seems to make sense, I felt the only reasonable explaination for what he did was that he felt the hammer was unlikely and that's how he answered. If he said anything else then I would have probably found him scummiest of everyone here because the L-1 vote would have almost certainly been opportunistic scum. It could still well be but I'm willing to accept his NAI explaination.

Cloud I interrogated as I wanted to find the motivation behind him hammering. I notice he still hasn't answered why he lynched him there and then rather than wait for more evidence to present itself,

Cloud, could you do that please.

So far my judgement is undecided of him.

Kaboose looked all over the place, hence why I asked what his reasoning was for suddenly unvoting you and going onto Esires, he looked like he was flailing and just throwing mud to see what hit. While I don't agree entirely with completely ruling out lynching anybody on wagon (if he is scum, that would be awfully convenient if his partner was someone on it), I accept what he's trying to say. He has however not explained why he is going after esires.

Everything else is kind of a stream of consciousness really, I ask questions as they come to my head and make notes of answers, it's how I gamesolve.

[Mjollnir]

I would say the wagon reasoning is somewhat flawed to be honest. Two of the living players that were on it were only there because of RVS, and then you have others who weren't on it who never had a chance to actually make a judgement on it at all because they didn't have a chance to react to it.

[Mjollnir]

Well it looks like kaboose is were I want to vote.

May I ask what's keeping you from voting him then?

[Mjollnir]

Makes sense Screen,

I wanna hear what Vedith and Cloud think about the state of play right now, who they feel are scummy and why.

[Mjollnir]

Theres like 2 days before lynch, i think everyone should be outing their reads ish and then make a vote today before tomorow, heres mine

I agree with this sentiment.

Issue is I dunno where to place you right now. I feel it's either 50/50 you're scum trying to use the honest angle to get off the hook, or you're town who genuinely made a mistake and now regrets it and you're being honest about this.

I suppose on reflection, 50/50 is better odds than the other players in this game. However, I get the feeling I'm missing something with you. I keep reading your posts trying to find it but nothing, and that's odd for me.

Honestly the other players need to start chiming in. It's a blitz game and tomorrow is deadline, where is everyone? Vedith in particular. He's posting elsewhere but not here despite the fact I've specifically called him out to post. I don't like this.

[Mjollnir]

Why Esires or Screen Vedith?

And why only post now I've said I didn't like the fact you weren't? Why weren't you before but in other games?

[Mjollnir]

I've been on my other accounts tonight and not posted in majority places on this account.
Try again.

And you signed up for a Blitz game to be in a game you weren't expected to post every day in?

And do you want me to answer the question on esires or screen, because right now I'm assuming you're playing dumb?

Sorry if I seem dumb for asking questions, but this is kind of my job here. It's not like you had mentioned any potential reasoning on them prior to this post here so unless you consider everyone without mind-reading powers stupid. Your posts up to me having to ask you for your reads were completely full of fluff and had no real opinion about any living player in this game.

Also I believe esires' case against Cloud is more than simply the NK. That reasoning alone would be fairly WIFOM but he also mentioned the hammer and that pocketing thing too.

Right now I would be happy lynching either Vedith or Cloud. Vedith because a lot of his posts have come across needlessly defensive (see him attacking me for asking questions, "try again" etc), his posts being fluff before I had to drag his reads out of him, his reason for not posting here to face questions makes little sense and his vote on esires comes across as opportunistic given the reasoning is flawed and there is already anti-esires sentiment in the thread. Cloud for reasons already outlined in Post [/post]156[/post]. If nothing dramatic happens overnight my vote will probably go on Vedith tomorrow morning.

[Mjollnir]

@Mjollnir - Vedith is a bit of a dick so unfortunately it's NAI, he was horribly anti-town in our previous game together and was willing to gamethrow because he was pouty. TBH I just don't really read his posts anymore.

Maybe so, but that would only possibly cover one of my points against him. Even if I were to dicsount the defensiveness (and reading through a few of his other comments in other completed games where he was town, he did not seem to be so defensive as he is now, so I'd say it half takes it away possibly).

VOTE: Vedith

[Mjollnir]

And yes im willing to lynch someone whos town if it serves my wincon

And who's wincon is that? Lynching town is ALWAYS directly against town interests.

[Mjollnir]

I'm vig-ing someone not on the lynch tonight

If we lynch town again today, I would caution against vigging anyone, because if you also vig wrong then scum win automatically. I'd say the wiser thing to do would be to wait for any potential investigative role to come forward with information.

[Mjollnir]

I'll be most happy today with a Vedith lynch, Cloud I'll also be OK to vote for.

I townread Screen and have a fairly neutral read on everyone else.

[Mjollnir]

Well, since you find it hard to understand, there's 7 players alive. I'm town, I think 4 others have potential as town.
That equals 5. 7 minus 5 is 2.
There are 2 players that I don't town read.
2 is the number of Scum... omg math is amazing.
So yes, that was a dumb question from you.

Yeah, nice equation. The only thing missing from it is a little thing called reasoning. If you're gonna be like this about me asking why you read people as scum, then I'd be better off asking why you read those people as town, so I'll do that.

[Mjollnir]

There we go sweet heart, you finally understood.
Cloud doesn't hammer there as Scum.
Ircher is obvious Scum when Scum
Kaboose is genuine in trying to sort the game, I don't believe that Kaboose votes 3rd as Scum while Scum. I've seen a few of his games, he's not too bright.
And yours if only a gut town lean

Now explain your reads.

Looks like we make a fine pair, I can't do maths and you can't read. It's Post 164 where I explain myself in case you genuinely missed it though. Screen I read as town because he's contributing and looks like he's scumhunting, so I believe his claim.

That Cloud and Kaboose reasoning is full of WIFOM, Cloud more so.

[Mjollnir]

A null opinion yes. Ircher explained his L-1 well enough to convince me he wasn't scummy for it. Kaboose I suppose on reflection I have a town-lean on, his reasoning seems pretty genuine. Esires I genuinely have no opinion on, I can't really read his posts as either town or scum, my opinion of him will come with flips.

[Mjollnir]

I'm not sure how honest your reasoning is however. Your reasoning for preferring esires is flawed as I have demonstrated in Post 164, so I wonder how motivated your vote is by opportunism given other people have indicated they would like to lynch esires, and nobody has done so to Screen.

Furthermore, your reasons for eliminating Cloud and Kaboose are based on WIFOM, which co-incidentally are the two biggest rival wagons. It's conceivable one of them is your scumbuddy if we lynch you or one of them and they flip scum.

[Mjollnir]

I'll vote either with the mist votes out of those 2.

Then why the extra justification of your vote on Esires? Why not just say this to begin with? It comes across as dishonest.

[Mjollnir]

Well, I have demonstrated this thought process to be at best flawed.

[Mjollnir]

Well, I'm going to assume that when I ask why, you're going to say "Because I'm Vedith".

So I'll leave it at that I think.

[Mjollnir]

Vedith \o/

[Mjollnir]

Also, Mod I believe Kaboose is due a prod

[Mjollnir]

Mjolnir should be town, his push on me is fair but the wifom arguement is just lolz

VOTE: esires

L-1 people

These are your own words you are calling lulz:

Also this is wifom territory and i expect people to disagree

but, overall theres wasnt a single scum gain for me to put myself on the light to just hammer a random guy with subpar posts who could very well be a mislynch down the road from a scum pov. Quickhammering a shitposter because he scumread me with abysmal logic isnt how extremely calculating scum!Cloud proceed, go and read my scum games if youre curious

(bolding and underlining done by me)

As you said, it could be what happened. There is an equal chance it isn't.

[Mjollnir]

Cloud, you've done nothing since that persaudes me you might be town. Indeed going after esires even though you think he is town, saying it goes towards your wincon. I have my doubts over what that wincon is.

Either you are scum who is very heavily playing the "scum wouldn't do this, it's far too obvious" card, or you are town who is self-admittedly playing very bloody mindedly towards your own interests and opinions. I'd say there is a fairly equal chance of both

[Mjollnir]

Cloud, do you read anyone as scummy right now?

[Mjollnir]

i think scum is just hiding since d1 and not participating much

So, someone along the lines of Kaboose or Ircher? Kaboose you say you townread based off I assume his post explaining his decision to go with someone off wagon?

Ircher you've just said you found his L-1 vote weird but "you like his tone better today", do you still believe this?

[Mjollnir]

Why are you trusting what Vedith has to say about Ircher? He might be scum, he might have reason to lie about him.

What makes you feel comfortable enough with Vedith to do this? You previously put him second bottom on your list, but said you toneread him well but needed to post more. He has, you haven't commented on this, so how do you feel about him now?

[Mjollnir]

Also people dont tend to lie on meta like so im somewhat comfortable using it for my own read atm

I don't understand why this is so though, I like to do my own research and I don't see why others wouldn't either.

[Mjollnir]

It looks like it didn't work very well for you that time, what makes you think it'll work this time? (Also just to confirm, you were town that game and town ended up losing, right?)

Taking a "my way or the highway" approach is, whether or not you are being honest in it, a bad way to approach the game as town. As town we are supposed to be working as a team, debating our opinions and most of all listening to eachother. Telling somebody "either agree with me or I will make sure you are lynched" is a horrible way to go about things if you are town. What makes you feel differently?

[Mjollnir]

Esires, do you have any other scumreads?

[Mjollnir]

Cloud, it sounded like that person in the other game had a reasonable reason to believe you were scum. What I wanted to know is whether you have learnt anything from that incident so town you might still believe what you are doing is right. I suppose I have no choice to believe that you may be telling the truth here with esires. The hammer could be another story.

I would still prefer a Vedith lynch today though, I may be alone on this I fear. We need to hear from Kaboose.

[Mjollnir]

There's still 12 hours left, and people tend to more active in the evening (well, evening BST), I reckon there is time for more discussion.

[Mjollnir]

Can you make me a decent vedith case and i promise ill try to consider it

Honestly, it's pretty much already all laid out in one of my earliest posts. I'll quote it here for convenience and exposure:

I've been on my other accounts tonight and not posted in majority places on this account.
Try again.

And you signed up for a Blitz game to be in a game you weren't expected to post every day in?

And do you want me to answer the question on esires or screen, because right now I'm assuming you're playing dumb?

Sorry if I seem dumb for asking questions, but this is kind of my job here. It's not like you had mentioned any potential reasoning on them prior to this post here so unless you consider everyone without mind-reading powers stupid. Your posts up to me having to ask you for your reads were completely full of fluff and had no real opinion about any living player in this game.

Also I believe esires' case against Cloud is more than simply the NK. That reasoning alone would be fairly WIFOM but he also mentioned the hammer and that pocketing thing too.

Right now I would be happy lynching either Vedith or Cloud. Vedith because a lot of his posts have come across needlessly defensive (see him attacking me for asking questions, "try again" etc), his posts being fluff before I had to drag his reads out of him, his reason for not posting here to face questions makes little sense and his vote on esires comes across as opportunistic given the reasoning is flawed and there is already anti-esires sentiment in the thread. Cloud for reasons already outlined in Post 156. If nothing dramatic happens overnight my vote will probably go on Vedith tomorrow morning.

Vedith has since demonstrated he is a bit of a tit, which half renders my first point on him a bit less damning than I first thought, however the rest of it is still solid I feel.

He has since avoided any attempts to get me to justify preferring esires over Screen by saying "I'm Vedith and always right", however in post 209 he tried to argue that he would simply have voted whomever had the highest number of votes at the time, which makes me wonder why he tried to justify it with other reasons in Post 156, I don't like at all the fact he has changed his story on why he laid a vote on esires, and I get the feeling he was being dishonest about it and was looking to vote opportunistically. I have a stronger feeling he is scum than I do esires is.

[Mjollnir]

Sorry, not Post 156 in the post above, Post 163.

In that post, you said you had a specific reason for voting Esires over Screen.

VOTE: Esires

I suggest here today. Due to the fact they are voting Cloud and making a reason simply because if the night kill as if it was planned to setup Cloud.

Easy game, easy money.

I pushed you on this because I believe your reasoning for this is flawed, and when I did you changed to simply being OK with voting whomever had the most votes at the time. What happened to having a specific reason for preferring esires over Screen?

[Mjollnir]

Mmmhmm, nice not addressing my points at all.

[Mjollnir]

I won't lockvote because it may be needed to ensure a lynch goes through. However my vote is close to locked on you as possible.

[Mjollnir]

I'm already voting you mate. You not paying attention?

[Mjollnir]

Ey up Ircher, good to have you back.

Your vote is still on Kaboose, do you still read him as scummiest? Do you have an order of preference in your bottom three for lynching?

[Mjollnir]

Why?

Pedit: I really have not a lot to go by. I see no reason to change my vote, but the three at the bottom are of no particular order.

Given how close to deadline we are, I thought I'd make sure it was clear where your voting intentions lay. Also I ask so I can draw associative leads later.

[Mjollnir]

Real live footage of Mjollnir trying to pocket Ircher.



Let's all take a moment to see if Ircher falls for it.

I take grave offense to this.

My hair is much longer, I have much more facial hair and I generally look much more fabulous than how you depict me here.

[Mjollnir]

I take grave offense to this.

My hair is much longer, I have much more facial hair and I generally look much more fabulous than how you depict me here.

I apologies, my painting skills are not as good since I lost both my thumbs.

Well now I feel bad though my hair is still red and fabulous thumbs or no

[Mjollnir]

I'll be going to bed soon, I get up at 6am on weekdays so I'll have an hour to analyse before deadline and to change my vote if necessary to ensure a lynch goes through. I feel like Vedith I need to think as well, especially if it ends up going to a esires/Kaboose conundrum as signs suggest it is. Kaboose before I would not have supported as a lynch, however he's just been totally absent today when he said he was going to catch up. Admittedly there may be innocent reasons behind this, however the timing of his post promising this so soon after I mentioned he was due a prod seems a little suspect in hindsight, knowing now he has done jack all since.

In terms of esires....still no opinion! I feel I need to read through his posts and see if I can get a more definitive opinion of him from that. So I'll try that.

Everyone else, it's concerning we are getting close to the deadline with no solid idea of what we're doing, last thing I want is for us to be scrambling at the 11th hour desperately trying to avoid a No Lynch, that's a scenario scum thrives on to push through a preferred target of theirs on shaky logic, and that goes double in a game they have daytalk like this one. To that endm I feel each of us should organise the other players in the following tiered format:
{Preferred lynches}
{I would support a lynch on these players}
{I would vote only to avoid a No Lynch}
{I have no interest lynching no matter what}

For instance, mine right now would look like:
{Vedith}
{Cloud}
{Everyone else}
{Screen}

I'm gonna go analyse esires see if he changes catagory at all.

[Mjollnir]

Post 85 looks like genuine scumhunting to me.

I'm not sure why he didn't comment on Kaboose's post where he explained his on/off wagon theory considering he FOS'd him for it. Esires I would like to know why you didn't do this?

His reasoning for voting Cloud makes sense, at least initially anyway. I'm not a big fan of tunneling, especially the fact that prior to me prodding him on the issue he gave no semblance of reads on any other players except Vedith, he gave a mostly unsubstantiated theory that Cloud/Vedith are scumbuddies. The only evidence he gave of his own is that Vedith set up a false dichotomy in one of his posts. Esires, do you still feel Vedith is 2nd most likely scum behind Cloud, and if so do you have any further reasoning for this? Also, if Cloud flips scum, would Vedith be his most likely partner still?

Lately his tunneling and reasons for finding Cloud scummy have been more of the "if Cloud is scum this is why he's doing this" variety rather than the "Cloud is scummy because of this" one. However I have to comment on the fact he's kept this up even though others have moved onto other wagons, most notably his own with Kaboose being apparently the most likely counter-wagon, if anything as commented just before his reasoning got more tunnely..I would not expect that of scum!esires when he is on the block, I would expect him to try and worm out of it slowly, maybe find a way to get himself onto a counter-wagon, rather than double down. Also his posts do overall read like town who has his heart set on lynching someone. I think overall I would have to say I have a townlean on esires. He stays in the third tier of my above post, but if it did come down to esires/Kaboose, I would place my vote on Kaboose.

[Mjollnir]

Esires is L-1 that I can see.

I'm off to bed, be up in a few hours.

[Mjollnir]

Excellent work near the end town, we deserved this

[Mjollnir]

Bad luck scum, I thought you guys had it in the bag middle of Day 3