Micro 737: Chosen Mafia (Day 4)

[tman2nd]

Good morning.
VOTE: PMysterious

[tman2nd]

That's L-1.

[tman2nd]

I don't like that he didn't announce that that was L-1.
VOTE: Bulbazoor

[tman2nd]

Are you aware that that puts Bulbazoor at L-1?
Pedit:ninja'd

[tman2nd]

Hi!

VOTE: tman2nd

You've been the third vote on a wagon that reached L-1, twice, pointed out when it was at L-1 but didn't think it worth unvoting even though scum could very well be angling for a quickhammer on a chosen townie. You seem like you're trying to slip under the radar by following popular opinion.

As long as people are aware it's L-1, a quickhammer would be very scummy. Scum who is quickhammering wouldn't be able to pretend that they didn't notice.

[tman2nd]

Good catch Dunn!

Not following your Bulbazoor vote however.

When LUV said this, I assumed it was because they hadn't noticed that they had put PMysterious at L-1 and now realized it when Dunn unvoted.

[tman2nd]

As long as people are aware it's L-1, a quickhammer would be very scummy. Scum who is quickhammering wouldn't be able to pretend that they didn't notice.

Depends on the scumteam - they might think it would still leave them in a better position, since their major obstacle is removed from the game. You're giving them the opportunity to make that choice - scum can quickhammer if it puts them in a better position, or they can not. But it's not a cut and dried "they definitely won't so it's fine" kind of situation.

I suppose mafia could think it's a good idea to trade a mafia for a chosen townie (I wouldn't), but this would always be a possibility when someone is at L-1. I'm not opposed to people being at L-1, my concern was with people being at unanounced L-1.

As long as people are aware it's L-1, a quickhammer would be very scummy. Scum who is quickhammering wouldn't be able to pretend that they didn't notice.

Good catch Dunn!

Not following your Bulbazoor vote however.

When LUV said this, I assumed it was because they hadn't noticed that they had put PMysterious at L-1 and now realized it when Dunn unvoted.

I'm not sure what the contradiction there is. One post is talking about a case where it has been made clear that someone is at L-1, while the other is talking about a case where it hasn't.

[tman2nd]

By the way, I'm going to be V/LA from the 20th to the 23rd.

Acknowledged

- Um

[tman2nd]

Bulbazoor replaces Sulfur, effective immediately.

VOTE: Bulbazoor

Why did this make you want to vote Bulbazoor?

[tman2nd]

@Bulbazoor:

Expanding on Keychain's question, where you aware that PM was at L-1? If so, why did you put him there without announcing it?

Yes I do think Dunn's posting is suspicious. I had considered asking if post restrictions was allowed or not based on the rules, but then realized, I might not get an answer from the mod either way. So I can't be sure. I've seen post restrictions before, but never saw a rule in a game allowing them or not, so you never know when someone is faking it.

I don't think you can have a post restriction in an open setup without it being part of the rules of that set up, because a post restriction is part of your role.

So to clarify - you think it's suspicious because it could be feigning a post restriction? I can see that.

However I think the actions he's taken and points he's made have been reasonably towny, regardless of whether he expressed them in pictures or words.

What about what Dunn has "said" has been towny to you?

[tman2nd]

@Bulbazoor:

Expanding on Keychain's question, where you aware that PM was at L-1? If so, why did you put him there without announcing it?

Yes I do think Dunn's posting is suspicious. I had considered asking if post restrictions was allowed or not based on the rules, but then realized, I might not get an answer from the mod either way. So I can't be sure. I've seen post restrictions before, but never saw a rule in a game allowing them or not, so you never know when someone is faking it.

I don't think you can have a post restriction in an open setup without it being part of the rules of that set up, because a post restriction is part of your role.

So to clarify - you think it's suspicious because it could be feigning a post restriction? I can see that.

However I think the actions he's taken and points he's made have been reasonably towny, regardless of whether he expressed them in pictures or words.

What about what Dunn has "said" has been towny to you?

As t the bolded: I've played games where post restrictions could be inflicted by a player onto another player (through the mod) and not mentioned in the rules if there was or was not a post restriction in game. So I can never be sure one way or the other.

Night.

I don't think that would be an open setup. We know what all the roles in the game are. It's just Mafia, Vanilla Townies, and Chosen Townies.

[tman2nd]

In the first post, I'm talking about the reason why I'm not worried about someone being at L-1 if people know that that's the case.

In the second post, I was saying that the reason I hadn't voted LUV for putting someone at L-1 unannounced was because It seemed like they had already acknowledged that that had happened, so I didn't have any reason to push in that direction. With Bulbazoor, they put PM at L-1 didn't say anything, and still hasn't said anything about it.

[tman2nd]

I guess LUV could be scum trying to sneekily put someone at L-1, but I didn't think that at the time. In fact, when Bulba made his L-1 vote, I initially just pointed out the L-1. I didn't really think to vote him until Jin did in 20. Since Bulba has still not responded to anything about all this, that's where I want to keep my vote right now.

@Dunnstral

So, have any conclusions based on the questions you've been asking me that you'd like to share?

[tman2nd]

So, I see Bulbazoor has explained himself. I'm going to still vote him because the unannounced L-1's are the most suspicious things that have happened so far. And yes, I know this applies to LUV and PM as well, but I only have one vote. I'll also echo that I would also like to see more substance from Dunn. Like I said in an earlier post, does he have anything to say based on the questioning he's given me for example?

I'll admit, I don't have anything to add yet, other than following or commenting on the wagons on Bulbazoor and PMysterious. Though i am suspicious of Dunn for communicating solely by pictures from the 1930's.

When did you comment on the wagons?

[tman2nd]

Are you going to?

[tman2nd]

Either Dunn is scum and ids BTD's partner - or Dunn bought BTD's line of reasoning.

Why would Dunn be have BTD's partner as scum?

If Dunn is scum, then staying odd Pm's wagon if it goes to lynch would be a good thing.

That's true. I think this gives Dunn town points.

Also, I'm not sure how Dunn catching the fact that Bulb replaced Sulfur is a "good catch" since it happened in pre game and not once the game started, it's not like people ere talking about Sulfur already and then Dunn points out Sulfur isn't playing.

I interpreted that as referring to Dunn unvoting because it was L-1.

@LUV

clarification on this?

Also noting that Bulba hasn't answered any questions directed at him (post]38[/post], 40

40 wasn't directed at Bulba.

he posted in 44 "Dunn feels towny", then was asked by LUV in 45, "Why don't you suspect him?" to which there really was no response, other than "I hadn't seen that it was L-1" 66, and no answer on why he why he sees Dunn in a more town light. Seems like a generalized answer to me.

I think that's a valid answer to the questions (aside from the one about his town read of Dunn). It doesn't make his L-1 vote less suspicious, but it does answer the questions.

So after that I'm more suspicious of Bulba than anyone and only slightly as far as Dunn and BTD are concerned.

Why BTD?

[tman2nd]

Why would Dunn be have BTD's partner as scum?

I mean have BTD as a partner.

[tman2nd]

@LUV Thoughts on anything?

[tman2nd]

So, what did you get from the reactions?

[tman2nd]

I just noticed. The first post still says the game hasn't started.

Noted, will update -- Um

[tman2nd]

I would really like to hear more from these five players:
Lil Uzi Vert
BTD6_maker
Secret Agent Jin (or rather his replacement) Pedit: Looks like their here.
Bulbazoor
Dunnstral

PMysterious seems kind of town to me. His arguments on Bulbazoor seem natural.
Not sure about Gorny. His suspicions of BTD confuse me. But, he could be town. Null.
I've liked what I've seen from Keychain. She's made well reasoned posts. So, a bit of a town read here.
Dunnstral hasn't really made any actual stances. He's only really pointed to things. But, the unvote at L-1 does nudge him into the town camp for me. I'd like to see more though.

Bulbazoor is my biggest suspicion right now. The accidental L-1 vote is possible for town, but it does suggest scumminess. That plus their lack of any real content makes them my top lynch candidate.

[tman2nd]

I mean they're

[tman2nd]

I think he would do that as scum because of the chance of an accidental hammer.

[tman2nd]

Here's where I didn't unvote to get reactions. I saw all of you asking me to unvote prior but left the vote up for a bit longer in case I could gauge some reactions out of you guys since the game is still at an early stage. That's why I didn't respond to the votes at that particular time.

I think he explained your second question here.

I wouldn't know how likely a a tactic that is because I only have a few completed games on this site.

[tman2nd]

Well, I'm not all that confident in a town read on PM. I just could see where he was coming from as town. So, a slight lean in that direction.

[tman2nd]

By the way, when I included the lack of content as part of my reason for suspecting Bulba. It's not because he put a naked town read or anything. It's just that he hasn't done anything useful after he responded to the questions about his L-1 vote.

[tman2nd]

Like I said it's only a slight leaning. Scum could have made those posts too.

[tman2nd]

I guess the lack of content part is less a reason that he is suspicious and more of a reason I want to pressure him to make more content. Like, what good is making a wagon on someone if you're just going to let them get out of it by not saying much. They did respond, but just to the accusations and they haven't said anything about anyone else.

[tman2nd]

So, I see Bulbazoor has explained himself. I'm going to still vote him because the unannounced L-1's are the most suspicious things that have happened so far. And yes, I know this applies to LUV and PM as well, but I only have one vote.

This sort of thing is why.

tman:

Assuming Bulba is being honest about not realising his vote was L-1, that means that LUV's unannounced L-1 vote was

very nearly a quickhammer

. If Dunn hadn't unvoted, that would have been Day 1 over right there.

So if you're voting people for unannounced votes, that means that LUV's vote was the one that came the closest to the actual situation you claim to be worried about.

Why does this not concern you?

The main reason I choose to vote Bulba is first off because I hadn't thought about how LUV also qualified for that reasoning. And then later, when it was pointed out, Bulba is the one who had votes on them, so it would be easier to pressure him. Plus, isn't LUV V/LA and with an end date that is right after I go V/LA? But, that is a good point how in that scenario, LUV's vote did nearly lead to that situation I was worried about. I just can't easily pressure them when I'm going to be V/LA once I'm not.

And why are you using a policy (not announcing L-1) to determine your vote instead of looking for scum?

I'm not using policy. Unannounced L-1 is just the most suspicious thing I've seen so far.

Dunnstral hasn't really made any actual stances. He's only really pointed to things.

...

That's true. But although you are right about the wagon being pointless, don't you think he would want to get out of it if he's scum, and be more apathetic as town? Considering the game state.

Early on, it seems someone could potentially try and lurk away a wagon because it's unlikely to go through based on lack of content.

This.

[tman2nd]

Why aren't you voting me Mulch?

[tman2nd]

I should take a look at that math by BTD. I might have had the wrong idea about how good it would be for mafia to trade for a chosen townie.

The main reason I choose to vote Bulba is first off because I hadn't thought about how LUV also qualified for that reasoning. And then later, when it was pointed out, Bulba is the one who had votes on them, so it would be easier to pressure him. Plus, isn't LUV V/LA and with an end date that is right after I go V/LA? But, that is a good point how in that scenario, LUV's vote did nearly lead to that situation I was worried about. I just can't easily pressure them when I'm going to be V/LA once I'm not.

That makes sense, if you choose your votes primarily for the purpose of pressuring someone for content. I don't really, so this could be a theory disagreement on this point.

No, I'm not voting to pressure for content per se. It's just that when three people have done the same scummy thing, voting for the one who is more likely to respond is best assuming there's nothing else to push me in a different direction.

But this post does echo my earlier concern and the original reason for my vote - you are following popular opinion. You are staying on a wagon because there are other people on it. Why?

Once again, that's not the reason I'm voting him. It's the reason I choose to remain on him rather than switch to a different player who made an unannounced L-1.

In 95, you listed a bunch of people that you wanted to hear more from. Then you reiterated your vote on Bulba was for "lack of any real content", as well as being scummy within the small amount of content given.

You've picked a single one of a number of potential candidates, without really looking at the others.

The list of people I wanted to hear more from was not a list of candidates for lynching. It was just a list of players I wanted to here more from. The list of candidates would be the people who made unannounced L-1 votes. The lack of content aspect of my statement there was because Bulbazoor had only responded to the questions about his L-1 vote and hadn't done anything like actually come to any conclusions based on the reactions he got.

What do you think about the content BTD6 has provided so far?You've given thoughts on and/or interacted with everyone else, but very little on BTD6.

Until just now, he hadn't really made any stances (aside from the PM vote in his very first post). That's why I listed him as people I want to hear more of. He still really hasn't really made any clear stances with his recent post.

More on LUV as well, please. He and Bulba are pretty similar with regards to content. The V/LA is not a good reason to withhold a scumread - is there something else?

LUV has less content than Bulba the only thing I can say about LUV is his L-1 vote. That does lean him into scum territory, but I don't have anything else to say.

Gorny, mysterious, and tman are the scummiest after a quick read. Gorny, why do you think bulbs would be so blatantly putting people at l-1 as either allignment? Like, assume he's town and then that he's scum. Why would he do these things?

l
Don't know. Only he can answer that question and I bet he won't do so.

Random guess, if he's town, he might be trying to get a reaction out of people.

If he's scum...well.

I thought you where scumreading him? You're voting him after all. That doesn't seem to match up with you not being able to come up with a scum motivation for his actions.

[tman2nd]

I think he answers your questions here.

Here's where I didn't unvote to get reactions. I saw all of you asking me to unvote prior but left the vote up for a bit longer in case I could gauge some reactions out of you guys since the game is still at an early stage. That's why I didn't respond to the votes at that particular time.

[tman2nd]

Oh hey. I don't know if you're talking to me or PM, but I think I just needed to think about that a bit longer. I thought that quote contradicted 66, but maybe it's just confusingly worded. So he deliberately didn't unvote in 44 in order to get reactions?

Questions on what reactions he got still stand.

That's what it seems like to me. But, yeah I would like what he got from the reactions as well.

[tman2nd]

I'm extremely sorry but I may have to push this once again. I may be able to do stuff in like 2 hours

Could you answer my question in 123?

[tman2nd]

Sorry I meant to quote Gorny there.

[tman2nd]

When I get around to it, I'll post a list with my reads.

I hope you get around to it before I have to go early tomorrow morning.

[tman2nd]

I will be back late on Wednesday, so if a lynch hasn't been decided by then, I will be there probably at least 5 hours before the deadline. At most probably 7. So, I might have a chance to change my vote if I need to.

[tman2nd]

TBH Tman did two things that I consider a pretty decent scumtell in being too self aware in explaining votes, and quoting someone's post and saying "this." like, in 116.

What do you mean by being too self aware in explaining votes?

The thing really scummy for me here is the deflection on how they didn't respond to the UZI point, by saying "I could pressure him but not him."

I mean, I guess that could be a valid explanation. But really? You didn't even think someone else was scummy based on pressure? The things aren't really related to each other.

not the most incriminating thing though.

I didn't think any lone was scummy because of pressure. Pressure was just the reason I have kept my vote on Bulba rather than switching to a different player who did the same L-1 thing.

128 reads as pretty fake to me btw. Anyone else get that vibe?

I don't know if that's fake. But, I'm losing my town read on him.

[tman2nd]

2) I've been getting gut town vibes from him too.

But, in 143 you were pointing out some things you thought was scummy about me. Is this gut read, in contrast to that?

[tman2nd]

So, I'm about to be out of range for a while. It doesn't seem like Bulba is a likely lynch today. So, I'm voting Gorny because that has some possibility and a couple of things he's said hasn't made sense to me. Like his read on Bulba. Also his earlier read on BTD.

I might get back in time change my vote, but maybe not.

VOTE: Gorny

[tman2nd]

I'm on mobile but in terms of abstaining myself from guilt, I don't know what you mean, I can promise I just don't want to feel like shit if I white knight a scum.


The vibe of confidence and paranoia I am scum is what's getting him the gut vibe.

I think overall mysterious will be my ideal lynch for today. But I'm not sure yet. Want to reread the game.


Town reads on Uzi Keychain and maybe a slight one on dunnstrral and bulbs.

I'm back. I don't want to lynch PM. I don't find him very scummy. And BTD has not contributed well. I agree with Keychain's case on them. So, between those two, I would prefer to lynch BTD. I would still like to lynch Gorny as well, so if the votes swing back that way, I will put my vote back there. But, it looks like I'm now the only one voting him.

VOTE: BTD6_Maker

[tman2nd]

oops that uote shouldn't have been there.

[tman2nd]

*quote

[tman2nd]

I'm on mobile but in terms of abstaining myself from guilt, I don't know what you mean, I can promise I just don't want to feel like shit if I white knight a scum.


The vibe of confidence and paranoia I am scum is what's getting him the gut vibe.

I think overall mysterious will be my ideal lynch for today. But I'm not sure yet. Want to reread the game.


Town reads on Uzi Keychain and maybe a slight one on dunnstrral and bulbs.

i've got to go to sleep. good night,.

[tman2nd]

Oops, I did it again.

[tman2nd]

BTD6_maker and Mulch are all unlikely to be scum because they had the power to prevent PM from getting lynched, but didn't. And, I think bussing is a much riskier move in this set up because you can lose without being ever lynched yourself.
Bulbazoor no longer is suspicious for the unannounced L-1 because it was on mafia. Of course, now that we know it was a mistake, it could have been a mistake as mafia as well.

BTD6:

First vote on PM, never unvoted. It's possible he's PM's scum partner and voted him first as a cover, that way if PM ended up lynched, BTD doesn't look scummy where the wagon is concerned.

Thing is, if he hadn't done this, PM wouldn't have been lynched.

Dunn:

Second vote on PM, then unvoted in 14 and voted Bulba in 15. It looks innocent, but since I am already suspicious of the "post restriction", it looks more suspicious in that light. Also of note is his 31 and 117. Since Dunn is only posting images, it seems like he was trying to push the wagon on PM, this doesn't really fit with Dunn being PM's scum partner, but I'm noting it nevertheless.

31 isn't pushing any lynch. It's just answering Keychain's question in 30. Also, 117 is my post.

LUV

4th vote on PM - of note is his 170 Where he says he's comfortable lynching PM

Check out the day start.

Jin

Voted bulb, nothing else.

Jin is Mulch now.

Mulch

I think - the last vote on PM before end of day. Noting his 97, 103, 169. 170.

Out of the above, it's possible PM's scum partners are among:

Keychain
BTD
Dunn
Tman

Why BTD? Are you saying that their vote on PM makes them more likely to be mafia? Because that's all you've mentioned about them in this post.

-----

I'm gonna take a closer look at Gorny, Dunn and Keychain now.

[tman2nd]

Also, the first vote count lists Secret Agent Jin rather than Mulch.

Corrected

- Um

[tman2nd]

I was going in order of posts.

Hmm?

[tman2nd]

I was going in order of posts.

Hmm?

Counting the lynch votes as they happened, not by how they were in final total.

And that is a response to?

[tman2nd]

I've come around on Gorny. I think he's town. A couple reasons. He moved away from the Bulbazoor wagon onto Dunnstral which could doesn't mean too much because PM wasn't in much danger at the time, but he decided to stick on that vote which wasn't gaining any traction even after PM was in danger. Then today, he seemed a bit mixed up on the fact that LUV was killed last night. It could be an act, but It doesn't seem like it to me.

At this point, I'm thinking PM's partner was on the BTD wagon. I know it's not me, so I'm thinking one of Dunnstral or Keychain. Haven't quite decided who I think is more likely.

@Gorny: Why?

[tman2nd]

@Gorny: Why?

I meant to say Mulch here.

[tman2nd]

Wouldn't putting someone at L-1 without reason give the most reaction?

(bolding mine)

Can you give your opinion on any other players? You jumped on Bulba pretty early. Though if you're town, I suppose you've got more reason than anyone else to be paranoid that he was trying to quickhammer a Chosen townie.
I'd also like more explanation on the bolded - I have no idea what you mean here.

For the bold part (which I put by itself), I meant that he put me at L-1 without giving any real reason for the vote. Notice how Bulba was looking for reactions (in his earlier posts), but he didn't know he put me at L-1. So, that could mean he was expecting to hammer with the post, or he just wanted to see how I react under pressure, and he decided to add extra pressure.

Now, onto my reads as of now, besides Bulbafake (since he's scum).

Lil Uzi Vert: Null (Nothing that screams town or scum to me, and he's on V/LA as of now. It would be best to ask of him to say some more once he gets off.

tman22: Town (Pretty active, and town like to me. While also V/LA, he's communicated a lot more than Lil Uzi Vert, and plenty of others in this game.)

Gorny: Null/Scum (Active, yet suspicious. Mostly targeting someone for a speech thing that is going on with Dunn, more so than actual scumhunting.)

BTD6_maker: Null (Not very active, but he's under V/LA anyway at the moment, and he did start the wagon against me, but I'm not one to hold grudges unless you are really suspicious, and his reasoning was understandable, given the circumstances of this game.)

Keychain: Town (Very active, engaging with the other players, and just all around a solid guy at the moment. I don't really see any more scum elements.)

Mulch: Null/Town (Can't say much at the moment of making this, but Mulch might be more Town than scum, as throughout the 2 days he has played, he's given quite the input.)

Dunnstral: Town (They say a picture is worth a thousand words, and Dunn has pointed out quite a few things, with good reactions to boot. Can't really say anything negative about Dunn, as pointing stuff out that might have been missed is always something that is useful to look into.)

That makes sense.

VOTE: Dunnstral

Looking at the end of the day when the BTD wagon was formed, both Keychain and Dunnstral made sense in how they formed the wagon. So, it's coming down to how scummy/towny they seem to me. Keychain still looks like to town to me. Even when I've disagreed, her thought process has made sense.

[tman2nd]

I did it again! Disregard that quote. I was going to quote something from there, but changed my mind.

[tman2nd]

I've come around on Gorny. I think he's town. A couple reasons. He moved away from the Bulbazoor wagon onto Dunnstral which could doesn't mean too much because PM wasn't in much danger at the time, but he decided to stick on that vote which wasn't gaining any traction even after PM was in danger. Then today, he seemed a bit mixed up on the fact that LUV was killed last night. It could be an act, but It doesn't seem like it to me.

At this point, I'm thinking PM's partner was on the BTD wagon. I know it's not me, so I'm thinking one of Dunnstral or Keychain. Haven't quite decided who I think is more likely.

@Gorny: Why?

Are you asking me who is more likely scum between Dunn and Keychain?

No, that was a mistake.

Official Vote Count 1.08 (Final)

PMysterious

(3): BTD6_maker, Lil Uzi Vert, Mulch

BTD6_maker

(3): Keychain, Dunnstral, tman2nd

Bulbazoor

(1): PMysterious

Dunnstral

(1): Gorny

Not Voting

(1): Bulbazoor

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Notes

• BTD6_maker is V/LA through 8/25.

Bulbazoor

(1): PMysterious

I see that PM didn't make it in time to save himself. What is your point?

[tman2nd]

But, PM's last post was when BTD only had one vote. He could have joined the Gorny wagon then. Does that make Gorny mafia? The fact that BTD parked their vote on PM makes me think that it's more likely that PM just wasn't around in time.

[tman2nd]

Why Bulbazoor?

[tman2nd]

So, BTD and Bulbazoor. Any thoughts on who could be the mafia?

[tman2nd]

Oh god Dunnstral is still only posting in pictures. I'm laughing but I'm also crying.

There's no one correct way to play Mafia Keychain

Very true. If there was, it would be a terribly boring game! That said, I don't really know why you chose to respond this way to my post and why you thought it was relevant at daystart.

I think I'm a chosen townie

1) I have good tonwncred position

2) I wasn't nightkilled

3) Agent Jin was very likely one of the people NOT chosen to be not chosen.

VOTE: Mulch
There is only one member of the scum team left. They are going to be very keen on keeping themselves alive. This sounds like you're trying to make yourself unlynchable and it concerns me.

This is ridiculous. Busing is much worse for scum in this set up because they can lose without ever being lynched. Note how Mulch basically made the PM lynch happen.

VOTE: Keychain

[tman2nd]

Busing is much worse for scum in this set up because they can lose without ever being lynched.

How does this follow?

I know Mulch made the PM lynch happen. But if he can then sell himself as a chosen townie because of things like not getting NKed and not being a likely veto, the bus becomes worthwhile, and Mulch is someone I can see trying to pull it off.

But how does only having one scum mean they're more likely to somehow get endgamed?

It's not that they're more likely to be endgamed. It's that benefit of busing, being viewed as town, is less effective, because you can lose even if people don't think you're mafia.

[tman2nd]

VOTE: tman2nd

hmm?

[tman2nd]

Thus scum would likely try to drive a lynch on a Chosen on Day 1, even at the cost of one member.

I think Dunn's posting images only is a cover. If he's mafia that gives him some help in staying under the radar while saying nothing at all. Worth a lynch in my opinion.

I don't understand what you're saying here.

[tman2nd]

I did not believe Dunnstral's posting in pictures bit day one, and I still don;t believe it. I stuck with my vote then and I might as well re apply it.

VOTE: Dunnstral

What do you mean by you "don't believe it"?

[tman2nd]

I'm not asking why. I'm asking what you mean when you say that you don't believe it. You don't believe what?

[tman2nd]

He doesn't have a post restriction. No one does. This game doesn't have any post restrictions. This is obviously something self imposed.

[tman2nd]

What do you mean by you don't believe his tactic? Are you saying that you don't believe he would do that as town?

[tman2nd]

But, doesn't viewing someone as suspicious mean you think they're acting like they're scum? Also known as viewing it as scum whoever?

@Keychain:

Explain to me. Why would Mulch vote how he did as scum? Also, why do you think I'm doing great?

[tman2nd]

I just think that that is such a risky play in this set up. I really do not want to lynch Mulch.

I'm gonna sort out my thoughts and reread some of the game now. I'm a bit conflicted right now.

[tman2nd]

Sorry for procrastinating on this game. I'll get back into it in the morning.

[tman2nd]

@BTD what do you think of Mulch?

[tman2nd]

At the moment pressuring Dunnstral is probably the best idea. They refuse to do anything useful or even post text.

I don't have much time now; however, I will analyse the Gorny/Keychain interactions when I get the chance.

Have you done this?

[tman2nd]

the way his opinion on me goes from me probably not being scum to thinking I'm scum for posting images is pretty disingenuous.

When did he ever say that you were probably not scum?

[tman2nd]

When did he ever say that you were probably not scum?

Yeah... don't make it

too

obvious that you didn't read 265, it might hurt my feelings.

He may have said that he was less suspicious, but he never said he wasn't suspicious at all.

[tman2nd]

UNVOTE:

[tman2nd]

I originally was thinking BTD was town because they kept their vote on PM, but since they was V/LA in the later part of the day and wasn't available to unvote, that doesn't really clear them like I was originally thinking. I want to hear a bit more from them before I decide on this wagon. But, even if they haven't said anything, I'll come to some decision tomorrow.

Dunn could be mafia, but I'm not finding much reason to think he's mafia beyond being on the counter wagon to PM, and that's not enough. There are multiple people on the wagon including me after all. I don't town read him either though.

[tman2nd]

I don't want Dunn voted. I'll vote gorny because he's far scummier.


VOTE: gorny

What do you think of BTD? And could you explain any of your reads?

[tman2nd]

@BTD what do you think of Mulch?

At the moment pressuring Dunnstral is probably the best idea. They refuse to do anything useful or even post text.

I don't have much time now; however, I will analyse the Gorny/Keychain interactions when I get the chance.

Have you done this?

[tman2nd]

Dunn actually stopped posting in images and I like tman so far because he seems interested in solving the game

Why did you vote Gorny over BTD?

[tman2nd]

So BTD doesn't seem scummy to me. Neither does Dunnstral, but since Dunnstral was on the counter wagon to scum while BTD was on the wagon on scum, that breaks the tie for me. Everyone else, I'm thinking are town.

VOTE: Dunnstral

That's L-1.

[tman2nd]

So BTD doesn't seem scummy to me. Neither does Dunnstral, but since Dunnstral was on the counter wagon to scum while BTD was on the wagon on scum, that breaks the tie for me.

Everyone else, I'm thinking are town.

VOTE: Dunnstral

That's L-1.

It comes down to POE to you and BTD, and I think you are more likely.

[tman2nd]

You're already voting BTD.

[tman2nd]

Wait. I'm confused. What did you mean when you said BTD is more likely?

[tman2nd]

VOTE: BTD6_maker

Ok. You've convinced me. Dunnstral does seem town.

This is now L-1 on BTD.

[tman2nd]

but I'm not going to hammer without at least saying something about it.

[tman2nd]

VOTE: Keychain

Keychain was pushing for the lynch of BTD both days. On day 1 this was also to protect PM. She specifically wanted BTD over LUV over here:

Why LUV instead of BTD6, though? Their actions have been scummier in general - before they went on V/LA, all they contributed was theory spec. Then they left an RVS vote in place when they left.

The more I think about it, the more I get suspicious, ugh. Too much like someone just watching a town pull itself apart.
VOTE: BTD6_maker

She even tried to push on Mulch the other chosen townie, even when he had been very town with his vote on day 1.

I think she's had some good town reads of people, but that's because she knows everyone else is town. I still think she made good points on Dunnstral being town. It's just her reason for that argument was to get us to lynch a chosen townie over a normal one. I've had some paranoia over her town read of me, and now I think that's justified.

[tman2nd]

Plus, I think everyone else is town.

[tman2nd]

VOTE: Keychain

Keychain was pushing for the lynch of BTD both days. On day 1 this was also to protect PM. She specifically wanted BTD over LUV over here:

Why LUV instead of BTD6, though? Their actions have been scummier in general - before they went on V/LA, all they contributed was theory spec. Then they left an RVS vote in place when they left.

The more I think about it, the more I get suspicious, ugh. Too much like someone just watching a town pull itself apart.
VOTE: BTD6_maker

She even tried to push on Mulch the other chosen townie, even when he had been very town with his vote on day 1.

I think she's had some good town reads of people, but that's because she knows everyone else is town. I still think she made good points on Dunnstral being town. It's just her reason for that argument was to get us to lynch a chosen townie over a normal one. I've had some paranoia over her town read of me, and now I think that's justified.

So tell me:
Why do you say you think I had good town reads when you were also paranoid of my town read on you?

Why is this a contradiction?

Same question I asked Mulch - scum only need one Chosen townie lynched, so why would I have been pushing both? How does that make me more likely to be scum?

On day 2, you initially pushed Mulch, but then there was an opportunity to switch to BTD when Mulch voted there.

[tman2nd]

Hmm?

[tman2nd]

It's not a contradiction. Maybe I should have asked it the other way around. Why were you paranoid of my townread on you when you think my townreads were good? I'm worried that you're just chucking that out now because paranoia is generally a town trait. Can you give me any evidence of that paranoia before this post?

It's why I questioned it in VOTE: 268. Other than that I didn't really voice anything in that way.

If I was waiting for an opportunity to vote a Chosen townie, why didn't I wait for an opportunity to vote for Mulch? If you're trying to paint a picture of me being nervous scum unwilling to make the push on a Chosen townie on my own, there seems to be quite a lot to contradict that.

That's not the picture I'm trying to paint. You weren't waiting for an opportunity. But, regardless of whether you are town or scum, you did take an opportunity when it appeared to vote BTD. As town, you're taking the opportunity to vote someone you suspect. As mafia, you're taking the opportunity to vote for a Chosen Townie. In any case, you taking or waiting for opportunities is not the point of my argument. It was more about how you were pushing for the lynches of Chosen Townies whether you started the wagon or not.

Plus, I think everyone else is town.

Why?

Gorny: 210
Dunnstral: You yourself gave good reasons in 318. The main one for me is how he didn't stop posting pictures when he was being pushed on it.
Bulbazoor: His interactions with PM don't seem to be between scum buddies.

[tman2nd]

Ok. Well, now I'm sure it's Keychain. I just don't see it being Bulbazoor.

Why did Gorny have to go be so scummy yesterday? If I had been around before it ended, I would have likely changed my mind and voted Gorny.

I'll make some arguments later.

[tman2nd]

@Bulbazoor What was your reason for voting Gorny?

[tman2nd]

tman, why did you vote BTD6 in 319 - despite not finding them scummy in 308? I don't think you ever gave a reason that they

would

be scum, apart from PoE, and that's too easy for scum to fake for me to find it entirely trustworthy.

So BTD doesn't seem scummy to me.

Neither does Dunnstral,

but since Dunnstral was on the counter wagon to scum while BTD was on the wagon on scum, that breaks the tie for me.

They were null to me, but so was Dunnstral at the time. I didn't have any scumreads at the time. (Except some small doubts about you but at the time I overall considered you to be town.) So, yeah it was POE.

In addition, why did you not want PM lynched in 193 when you only had a "slight lean" on him being town in 105? Like you didn't seem to have a very good reason at all and it feels like you might have been trying to give PM the opportunity to save himself.

And BTD has not contributed well. I agree with Keychain's case on them.

It wasn't only that I didn't want to lynch PM. I also agreed at the time that BTD was scummy. At the last few hours of the day there, there were basically two options, BTD and PM. BTD looked scummier. (This changed the next day because the argument against BTD relied on PM being town.)

-----

Part of the reason I had some unvoiced suspicions of you day 2 despite my overall townread was your townread of me. The stuff you mention about my day 1 stuff around PM does look bad. During night 1 and the start of day 2, I was thinking someone would suspect me for it. Your townread of me made me wonder if you were mafia who knew I was town. Or if you were just reading me well as town.

In general, you've been well reasoned which is why I've wanted to townread you, but now I think you are just good at that, and since you are mafia, you know who all the townspeople are and so you've been able to notice things well which make people town, and so the townreads have been "genuine".

[tman2nd]

VOTE: Keychain

I'm confident in this.

[tman2nd]

I'll respond to you tomorrow. I started typing stuff up but I'm tired.

Don't vote until I get chance to do that, Bulbazoor!

[tman2nd]

PEDIT: Why!! I asked you to wait! Good job Keychain.

In 193, he does something incredibly scummy - despite having just a town lean on PM he is willing to jump on the wagon on BTD6 (who turned out to be a Chosen townie) for no real reason at all apart from not wanting PM to be lynched.

Except that's not the only reason. I thought BTD was scummy as well.

The only times he mentioned BTD6 during the day he avoided committing to a read, presumably while he worked out which Chosen townie would be easiest to lynch.

Why would I avoid a read on a Chosen Townie?

Then the next day he kicks off by saying that BTD6 and Mulch - both Chosen townies - are unlikely to be scum, and defended BTD6 from Gorny. But in 297 he inexplicably backpedals and decides BTD6 is an option.

It's not inexplicable. You can see the explanation in that post.

In 308 he votes Dunnstral despite not finding him scummy...

...yet in 317 he switches to BTD6, a Chosen townie that he also didn't think was scummy, because he found my argument "convincing". No reason why he thought BTD6 was scum. Just hopped on the wagon for the second time.

My reason was POE.

Even more impressive is how you've somehow managed to retcon a scumread on me. You say you've been suspicious of me for a while, but I don't see any evidence of that. You're fabricating excuses for me to be scum and pretending you held them before now to try and give them weight, because you actually stated a

townread

on me. In 214. No sign of suspicion. If you were using process of elimination, eliminating me makes no sense if you suspected me, which makes me think you're making it up now.

I never actually scumread you until BTDs flip. (Except briefly for when I voted you right after you voted Mulch on Day 2). Other than that, I did townread you; I just had suspicions. It started during the first night when I was thinking about who could be scum. I ruled out Mulch, LUV, BTD, and Bulbazoor. That left Gorny, Dunnstral, and you. I particularly thought it might be you or Dunnstral because you two had been on the counter wagon. I also saw that the way things played out I looked bad in Day 1. I wondered how people would respond to that. That's why when you said that I was "doing great" that made me wonder if you were mafia trying to pocket me. I still thought you were town and your answer made sense. When you went for Mulch, that got me to vote you because that push made no sense to me. In 274, part of what I was conflicted about was whether you were town or not. I decided you were and I unvoted you. When you voted for BTD, I wondered if BTD was chosen and if you were mafia who had been trying to get them lynched Days 1 and 2. But, that was based on too much conjecture, and I still considered you town. When I eventually joined you on BTD, I was still feeling paranoid that he was chosen, but I decided I was just being paranoid. When he flipped, that's the moment I decided that you were mafia.

And BTD has not contributed well. I agree with Keychain's case on them.

It wasn't only that I didn't want to lynch PM. I also agreed at the time that BTD was scummy. At the last few hours of the day there, there were basically two options, BTD and PM. BTD looked scummier.

To this point in particular - PM had not contributed well. Bulba had not contributed well. Your reasoning for voting BTD6 was pretty bad, and I've definitely had scum jump on my misguided pushes on townies before.

I thought there was a difference between how PM had contributed and how BTD had. PM had taken stances on things. BTD basically hadn't. He'd only talked a little theory.

If you think my townreads have been well reasoned because they're genuine, why have you also apparently been seeing my scumreads as such? This is not a good argument for me being scum.

Gorny was easy to scumread. He played awkwardly.
BTD's lack of actual positions made him easy to scumread as well. Plus there were things that Dunnstral pointed out that you could use.
Mulch is a scumread that didn't make sense to me.

[tman2nd]

I was town.

[tman2nd]

I definitely looked really scummy.

[tman2nd]

I wish I hadn't switched onto BTD.

[tman2nd]

You did a good job of sounding reasonable and townlike.

[tman2nd]

I wasn't trying to convince you. I was hoping to convince Bulbazoor.

I didn't feel very good about my chances that last day. Although, I had some hope when I noticed that the last thing Bulbazoor had said about me was positive.