Micro 737: Chosen Mafia (Day 4)

[Gorny]

VOTE: BTD6_maker

For posting first



.....and second.

[Gorny]

VOTE: PMysterious

8 players had confirmed, yet the game did not start. Mafia must have taken a while to veto. PMysterious was the one person who failed to confirm, so perhaps they were Mafia and the other member was waiting for them.

Good point, and also:

Could Dunn be post restricted? Or is it just a ploy?

Hmmm...


UNVOTE: BTD6


...and no, I'm not going to quickhammer.

[Gorny]

Yes I do think Dunn's posting is suspicious. I had considered asking if post restrictions was allowed or not based on the rules, but then realized, I might not get an answer from the mod either way. So I can't be sure. I've seen post restrictions before, but never saw a rule in a game allowing them or not, so you never know when someone is faking it.

[Gorny]

So to clarify - you think it's suspicious because it could be feigning a post restriction? I can see that.

However I think the actions he's taken and points he's made have been reasonably towny, regardless of whether he expressed them in pictures or words.

Yes, and fair enough.

Passing out now.

[Gorny]

@Bulbazoor:

Expanding on Keychain's question, where you aware that PM was at L-1? If so, why did you put him there without announcing it?

Yes I do think Dunn's posting is suspicious. I had considered asking if post restrictions was allowed or not based on the rules, but then realized, I might not get an answer from the mod either way. So I can't be sure. I've seen post restrictions before, but never saw a rule in a game allowing them or not, so you never know when someone is faking it.

I don't think you can have a post restriction in an open setup without it being part of the rules of that set up, because a post restriction is part of your role.

So to clarify - you think it's suspicious because it could be feigning a post restriction? I can see that.

However I think the actions he's taken and points he's made have been reasonably towny, regardless of whether he expressed them in pictures or words.

What about what Dunn has "said" has been towny to you?

As t the bolded: I've played games where post restrictions could be inflicted by a player onto another player (through the mod) and not mentioned in the rules if there was or was not a post restriction in game. So I can never be sure one way or the other.

Night.

[Gorny]

I'll admit, I don't have anything to add yet, other than following or commenting on the wagons on Bulbazoor and PMysterious. Though i am suspicious of Dunn for communicating solely by pictures from the 1930's.

[Gorny]

So, I see Bulbazoor has explained himself. I'm going to still vote him because the unannounced L-1's are the most suspicious things that have happened so far. And yes, I know this applies to LUV and PM as well, but I only have one vote. I'll also echo that I would also like to see more substance from Dunn. Like I said in an earlier post, does he have anything to say based on the questioning he's given me for example?

I'll admit, I don't have anything to add yet, other than following or commenting on the wagons on Bulbazoor and PMysterious. Though i am suspicious of Dunn for communicating solely by pictures from the 1930's.

When did you comment on the wagons?

I did not. I meant comments that I might make if any.

[Gorny]

Are you going to?

BTD6 was the first one to point out that 8 players had confirmed, yet the game did not start. Mafia must have taken a while to veto. PMysterious was the one person who failed to confirm, so perhaps they were Mafia and the other member was waiting for them, in 6 what if they are mafia and just saying that as a protective smokescreen?

Notice how Dunnstral was the first one to happily follow the wagon and vote Pmysterious in 9? Either Dunn is scum and ids BTD's partner - or Dunn bought BTD's line of reasoning.

You (tman2nd) show up in 11 and then also vote Pm with noting more than a "Good Morning" comment, pushing the wagon to 3 votes. LUV adds a blind vote then Dunn unvotes.

If Dunn is scum, then staying odd Pm's wagon if it goes to lynch would be a good thing. Also, I'm not sure how Dunn catching the fact that Bulb replaced Sulfur is a "good catch" since it happened in pre game and not once the game started, it's not like people ere talking about Sulfur already and then Dunn points out Sulfur isn't playing.

Bulb puts PM at L-1 with out any explanation in 18 Which is scummy in itself for the following reasons:

Its not like this is a newbie game (and at that Bulb's first game) and Bulb has been here long enough to know about what happens at L-2, L-1, and intent to hammer posts.
If Bulb was scum, it certainly looks like he may have been trying to go for a quickhammer.

Pm counter-votes Bulb and also puts Bulb at L-1, albeit with reasons, in 22

At this point and after re-reading posts 26 through 33 I'm getting more of a feeling that Dunn isn't so scummy looking as before, but I'm still not sure on the posting solely via images.

Also noting that Bulba hasn't answered any questions directed at him (post]38[/post], 40, he posted in 44 "Dunn feels towny", then was asked by LUV in 45, "Why don't you suspect him?" to which there really was no response, other than "I hadn't seen that it was L-1" 66, and no answer on why he why he sees Dunn in a more town light. Seems like a generalized answer to me.

So after that I'm more suspicious of Bulba than anyone and only slightly as far as Dunn and BTD are concerned.

I'm willing to put a vote on Bulba but a lot less inclined to vote for any others unless something happens.

[Gorny]

Infact,
VOTE: Bulbazoor

[Gorny]

Im fully aware that that puts him at L-1 too

[Gorny]

Either Dunn is scum and ids BTD's partner - or Dunn bought BTD's line of reasoning.

Why would Dunn be have BTD's partner as scum?

If Dunn is scum, then staying odd Pm's wagon if it goes to lynch would be a good thing.

That's true. I think this gives Dunn town points.

Also, I'm not sure how Dunn catching the fact that Bulb replaced Sulfur is a "good catch" since it happened in pre game and not once the game started, it's not like people ere talking about Sulfur already and then Dunn points out Sulfur isn't playing.

I interpreted that as referring to Dunn unvoting because it was L-1.

@LUV

clarification on this?

Also noting that Bulba hasn't answered any questions directed at him (post]38[/post], 40

40 wasn't directed at Bulba.

he posted in 44 "Dunn feels towny", then was asked by LUV in 45, "Why don't you suspect him?" to which there really was no response, other than "I hadn't seen that it was L-1" 66, and no answer on why he why he sees Dunn in a more town light. Seems like a generalized answer to me.

I think that's a valid answer to the questions (aside from the one about his town read of Dunn). It doesn't make his L-1 vote less suspicious, but it does answer the questions.

So after that I'm more suspicious of Bulba than anyone and only slightly as far as Dunn and BTD are concerned.

Why BTD?

Why would Dunn have BTD as partner as scum?

I thought that initially based on Dunn voting PM in 9, but it's a lot less likely now considering how the game has progressed.

40 wasn't directed at Bulba.

You're right, it wasn't.

Why BTD?

Because of his initial posts that speculated on the setup and the mafia possibly waiting. It's not a huge thing to go off of at this point which is why him and Dunn (for the reasons I stated) are less suspicious than Bulba..actually a lot less.

[Gorny]

I wanted Bulbz at L-1 for two reasons, and have held off this long to answer:

I wanted to see if:

A. Someone would quickhammer - possibly catching scum in the act.
B. See if anyone unvoted, if BLubz flips scum it might be his partner unvoting.

Since no one did either... well we're at square one.

[Gorny]

Gorny, mysterious, and tman are the scummiest after a quick read. Gorny, why do you think bulbs would be so blatantly putting people at l-1 as either allignment? Like, assume he's town and then that he's scum. Why would he do these things?

Don't know. Only he can answer that question and I bet he won't do so.

Random guess, if he's town, he might be trying to get a reaction out of people.

If he's scum...well.

[Gorny]

I'm awfully suspicious of Dunn and not buying the "post restriction"

VOTE: Dunnstral

[Gorny]

Gorny: Null/Scum (Active, yet suspicious. Mostly targeting someone for a speech thing that is going on with Dunn, more so than actual scumhunting.)

I'm going with my gut and I'm sticking to it.

[Gorny]

VOTE: mysterious

:/

Why? I thought that post was actually all right. His reads make sense, though he seems to be townreading for activity. That seems unwise, especially with regards to you, but I can't see what would lead you to switch your vote on that. Gorny still seems to be the scummier of the two.

Gorny: Null/Scum (Active, yet suspicious. Mostly targeting someone for a speech thing that is going on with Dunn, more so than actual scumhunting.)

I'm going with my gut and I'm sticking to it.

Okay. I think you're using your gut to dodge giving any reasons, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for a second. Can you explain exactly why you think Dunn's posting is scum motivated? Do you think he should be lynched for it?

@LUV:

It would be great if you could chip in before end of day!

I think Dunn's posting images only is a cover. If he's mafia that gives him some help in staying under the radar while saying nothing at all. Worth a lynch in my opinion.

[Gorny]

Some thoughts:

I'm still suspicious of Dunn and his "post restriction", but even though i stuck to Dunn yesterday with my vote, PM ended up getting lynched and turned out to be Scum.

Cases against people and why they

could be

scum, purely based off the votes on PM yesterday, note these are all just thoughts I have, take them however you want:

BTD6:

First vote on PM, never unvoted. It's possible he's PM's scum partner and voted him first as a cover, that way if PM ended up lynched, BTD doesn't look scummy where the wagon is concerned.

Dunn:

Second vote on PM, then unvoted in 14 and voted Bulba in 15. It looks innocent, but since I am already suspicious of the "post restriction", it looks more suspicious in that light. Also of note is his 31 and 117. Since Dunn is only posting images, it seems like he was trying to push the wagon on PM, this doesn't really fit with Dunn being PM's scum partner, but I'm noting it nevertheless.

Tman

3rd vote on PM and noted that PM was at L-1 after Bulba's vote in 18, then changed his vote to Bulba.

LUV

4th vote on PM - of note is his 170 Where he says he's comfortable lynching PM

Bulba

5th on PM, though unvoted. Did not have a vote on anyone when time ran out.

Jin

Voted bulb, nothing else.

Mulch

I think - the last vote on PM before end of day. Noting his 97, 103, 169. 170.

Keychain

: Never voted PM nor said anything one way or the other,was more focused on me, BTD6, Bulba and back and forth with Dunn, also (never voted PM nor really discussed him, though did point out that PM was almost QH'd in 82).

Out of the above, it's possible PM's scum partners are among:

Keychain
BTD
Dunn
Tman

Less likely to be:

Mulch
LUV


Undecided:

Bulba
Jin

[Gorny]

@BTD6

: tman taking up a place in the middle of both wagons is something I find scummy regardless of the setup. It's a way to keep under the radar.

I haven't checked your maths, sorry. But I imagine it also depends on scum's perception of how likely they are to be lynched themselves, or how lynchable they consider the chosen townies to be. For example - they might not quickhammer Bulba, even if he was chosen and they were given the opportunity, if they think they can get a lynch on him later without sacrificing one of them.

What's your opinion on player behaviour so far? Pretty much everything you've said has been based around the setup.

I wanted Bulbz at L-1 for two reasons, and have held off this long to answer:

I wanted to see if:

A. Someone would quickhammer - possibly catching scum in the act.
B. See if anyone unvoted, if BLubz flips scum it might be his partner unvoting.

Since no one did either... well we're at square one.

BTD6 has now made the point that I couldn't manage to explain in 34 and 38 - that it would possibly be advantageous for scum to quickhammer. Why would you actively give them that opportunity? The trade is probably not in our favour. If they choose to take it, it's definitely not.

Your second point is also questionable. For example - if Dunn were to flip scum, would he be partnered with PMysterious or Bulbazoor, both of whom he has unvoted? I think it more likely that scum!Bulba's partner would not be on the wagon at all. You're looking for associatives instead of scum.

And now that you've got what you were looking for, why are you still voting him?

Gorny, mysterious, and tman are the scummiest after a quick read. Gorny, why do you think bulbs would be so blatantly putting people at l-1 as either allignment? Like, assume he's town and then that he's scum. Why would he do these things?

Don't know. Only he can answer that question and I bet he won't do so.

Random guess, if he's town, he might be trying to get a reaction out of people.

If he's scum...well.

This is a terrible answer! Can you try again, maybe think it through a bit more?

@Mulch:

it looks here like you're asking leading questions to get Gorny to come to a certain conclusion. If that's the case, why aren't you just making your point outright? It feels manipulative.


However:
VOTE: Gorny

Content does leave much to be desired.

There's no one correct way to play Mafia Keychain

[Gorny]

I was going in order of posts.

Also aware that Jin is now mulch.

On BTD, I'm saying if he was mafia then having the first vote might make him look less suspicious, not saying he's more likely to be mafia.

On 31 I was guessing there, that's why I said to take that post as you like.

[Gorny]

I was going in order of posts.

Hmm?

Counting the lynch votes as they happened, not by how they were in final total.

[Gorny]

I've come around on Gorny. I think he's town. A couple reasons. He moved away from the Bulbazoor wagon onto Dunnstral which could doesn't mean too much because PM wasn't in much danger at the time, but he decided to stick on that vote which wasn't gaining any traction even after PM was in danger. Then today, he seemed a bit mixed up on the fact that LUV was killed last night. It could be an act, but It doesn't seem like it to me.

At this point, I'm thinking PM's partner was on the BTD wagon. I know it's not me, so I'm thinking one of Dunnstral or Keychain. Haven't quite decided who I think is more likely.

@Gorny: Why?

Are you asking me who is more likely scum between Dunn and Keychain?

[Gorny]

UNVOTE:

Why?

[Gorny]

@Tman. Ok.

[Gorny]

I did not believe Dunnstral's posting in pictures bit day one, and I still don;t believe it. I stuck with my vote then and I might as well re apply it.

VOTE: Dunnstral

[Gorny]

I did not believe Dunnstral's posting in pictures bit day one, and I still don;t believe it. I stuck with my vote then and I might as well re apply it.

VOTE: Dunnstral

What do you mean by you "don't believe it"?

Why do you ask?

I've said why since the start of the game.

[Gorny]

I don't believe his "post restriction" plain and simple

[Gorny]

Ok put it this way. I don't believe his tactic of posting solely via the use of images.

[Gorny]

What do you mean by you don't believe his tactic? Are you saying that you don't believe he would do that as town?

I'm saying exactly what I said. Take it however you want it.

[Gorny]

*sigh*

Gorny. what the heck.

not only did you not respond to me again

but that most recent question from tman was

the

question, the one where you explain why scum!Dunn would be doing this and not town!Dunn, the one where you tell us exactly why he's scum and should be lynched, and you failed to do it.

So just for you, I've gone through and found every time you mentioned Dunn, and provided exciting (not really exciting) commentary. Some quotes have been edited to remove irrelevant content.

Spoiler: Who likes wallposts? I like wallposts!

Could Dunn be post restricted? Or is it just a ploy?

Hmmm...


UNVOTE: BTD6


...and no, I'm not going to quickhammer.

The suspicion begins.

Yes I do think Dunn's posting is suspicious. I had considered asking if post restrictions was allowed or not based on the rules, but then realized, I might not get an answer from the mod either way. So I can't be sure. I've seen post restrictions before, but never saw a rule in a game allowing them or not, so you never know when someone is faking it.

Gorny believes it could be a faked post restriction.

So to clarify - you think it's suspicious because it could be feigning a post restriction? I can see that.

However I think the actions he's taken and points he's made have been reasonably towny, regardless of whether he expressed them in pictures or words.

Yes, and fair enough.

Passing out now.

I say he looks towny anyway - Gorny is still suspicious but says "fair enough" showing some kind of similar belief?

I've played games where post restrictions could be inflicted by a player onto another player (through the mod) and not mentioned in the rules if there was or was not a post restriction in game. So I can never be sure one way or the other.

Night.

Here is where he justifies his belief in there possibly being a post restriction in the game.

@Gorny: were those games open setups?

I'll admit, I don't have anything to add yet, other than following or commenting on the wagons on Bulbazoor and PMysterious. Though i am suspicious of Dunn for communicating solely by pictures from the 1930's.

Back to suspicion, abandon the analysis.

Are you going to?

BTD6 was the first one to point out that 8 players had confirmed, yet the game did not start. Mafia must have taken a while to veto. PMysterious was the one person who failed to confirm, so perhaps they were Mafia and the other member was waiting for them, in 6 what if they are mafia and just saying that as a protective smokescreen?

Notice how Dunnstral was the first one to happily follow the wagon and vote Pmysterious in 9? Either Dunn is scum and ids BTD's partner - or Dunn bought BTD's line of reasoning.

You (tman2nd) show up in 11 and then also vote Pm with noting more than a "Good Morning" comment, pushing the wagon to 3 votes. LUV adds a blind vote then Dunn unvotes.

If Dunn is scum, then staying odd Pm's wagon if it goes to lynch would be a good thing. Also, I'm not sure how Dunn catching the fact that Bulb replaced Sulfur is a "good catch" since it happened in pre game and not once the game started, it's not like people ere talking about Sulfur already and then Dunn points out Sulfur isn't playing.

...

At this point and after re-reading posts 26 through 33 I'm getting more of a feeling that Dunn isn't so scummy looking as before, but I'm still not sure on the posting solely via images.

Also noting that Bulba hasn't answered any questions directed at him (post]38[/post], 40, he posted in 44 "Dunn feels towny", then was asked by LUV in 45, "Why don't you suspect him?" to which there really was no response, other than "I hadn't seen that it was L-1" 66, and no answer on why he why he sees Dunn in a more town light. Seems like a generalized answer to me.

So after that I'm more suspicious of Bulba than anyone and only slightly as far as Dunn and BTD are concerned.

I'm willing to put a vote on Bulba but a lot less inclined to vote for any others unless something happens.

He looks at Dunn's actions here and how other players have interacted with him, and finds him less scummy as a result.

Why would Dunn have BTD as partner as scum?

I thought that initially based on Dunn voting PM in 9, but it's a lot less likely now considering how the game has progressed.

He saw an early possible associative and disregarded it.

I'm awfully suspicious of Dunn and not buying the "post restriction"

VOTE: Dunnstral

Back to being suspicious of the posting and ignoring the fact that every time he's looked at Dunn's actions, he's thought Dunn to be not scummy.

Gorny: Null/Scum (Active, yet suspicious. Mostly targeting someone for a speech thing that is going on with Dunn, more so than actual scumhunting.)

I'm going with my gut and I'm sticking to it.

Gorny, do you have indigestion? Also this is an interaction with flipped scum.

I think Dunn's posting images only is a cover. If he's mafia that gives him some help in staying under the radar while saying nothing at all. Worth a lynch in my opinion.

OH MY GOD SOUND THE ALARM

This is the only time that Gorny provides a reason that scum!Dunn might be using this tactic.

@Gorny: can you elaborate on this at all?

Some thoughts:

I'm still suspicious of Dunn and his "post restriction", but even though i stuck to Dunn yesterday with my vote, PM ended up getting lynched and turned out to be Scum.

Cases against people and why they

could be

scum, purely based off the votes on PM yesterday, note these are all just thoughts I have, take them however you want:

...

Dunn:

Second vote on PM, then unvoted in 14 and voted Bulba in 15. It looks innocent, but since I am already suspicious of the "post restriction", it looks more suspicious in that light. Also of note is his 31 and 117. Since Dunn is only posting images, it seems like he was trying to push the wagon on PM, this doesn't really fit with Dunn being PM's scum partner, but I'm noting it nevertheless.

Literally says that Dunn's actions don't make sense as being scum partners with PM, and the only thing he finds suspicious is the posting style and it's contaminating his perspective on what he otherwise would consider "innocent".

I did not believe Dunnstral's posting in pictures bit day one, and I still don;t believe it. I stuck with my vote then and I might as well re apply it.

VOTE: Dunnstral

Nonsensical vote considering the above post, and shows no consideration of anything that has happened. Since the start of the game.

I did not believe Dunnstral's posting in pictures bit day one, and I still don;t believe it. I stuck with my vote then and I might as well re apply it.

VOTE: Dunnstral

What do you mean by you "don't believe it"?

Why do you ask?

I've said why since the start of the game.

this

I don't believe his "post restriction" plain and simple

is

Ok put it this way. I don't believe his tactic of posting solely via the use of images.

just

What do you mean by you don't believe his tactic? Are you saying that you don't believe he would do that as town?

I'm saying exactly what I said. Take it however you want it.

bad.

tl;dr: Post 171 is the only one that provides a potential scum motivation for Dunnstral's posting. Literally every time Gorny looks at Dunn's actions, he finds them not scummy. Then he votes him anyway. It makes no sense at all.

Gorny, I've bolded two questions in there that I'd really like you to answer please.
And a couple more:
Do you believe that scum!Dunn, after the lynch of his partner, would continue to only post in pictures?
Who is your next candidate for scum?

You deserve a vote for this reasoning. But I don't actually think you're scum. I think if you were scum, you would have joined the BTD6 wagon to save your partner. I think you're town and it's frustrating me.

Maybe I'm choosing not to.

[Gorny]

Ok fine, I'll try not to be dickish and answer as best as I can.

I don't trust what looks like a faked post restriction on Dunn's part. I realize the setup as to this game and that a post restriction isn't part of it.

You want to call it town dunn, scum dunn, neutral dunn, Dunn in the sunn, whatever. I see it as a way to get by without having to verbally respond to questions, accusations, give reads, etc etc.

I haven't played here very long, that's why I don't (yet?) seperate someone into (town!Gorny or scum!Gorny) I just go with what I see and post my thoughts and or reactions if needed.

@keychain, I take back the maybe I'm choosing not to answer bit.

I can't tell you if it's an open setup or not, those games were on another site and years ago where the mod followed basic rules of modding but the rest was pretty much the mods choice as to rules.

How do you want me to elaborate on Dunn?

I'm not viewing it as scum dunn or town dunn. I'm seeing it as a player doing something that makes me suspicious and acting on it.

That's about all I can say.

[Gorny]

tman2nd
Gorny
BTD6_maker
Mulch
Wait untl I get more townreads

That was my scumpool btw

Can you elaborate a bit more on those?

[Gorny]

Wow he talks.
Gering the pressure of two votes on you Dunn? Only two more on you and the town wind ź that is if you're scum like I think you are.

[Gorny]

@BTD6:
In post 76, Gorny finds that Dunn is looking less scummy based on his interactions. Post 201 has Gorny saying that Dunn's actions don't really fit with him being PM's scum partner. The only reason he's ever given for Dunn being scum is the posting style and every time he renews the push it is because of the images and nothing else. Every time he backs off it, it's because of the content.
You're right in that new developments don't erase the past, but Gorny seems to be taking any opportunity to push Dunn. He's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't, which is not a good way to scumhunt. (I have been burned by this before).

I'm not convinced that trying to determine Chosen townies is a good way to find scum - the problem I'm having with it is that we first have to figure out who we think is Chosen, then find scum from that without knowing if our first conclusion was correct or not. It's like trying to find partner associations before the flip.
But it sounds like you're proposing that any wagon PM was on is more likely to be Chosen on the basis that a D1 Chosen lynch is ideal for scum. In that vein, why would Dunnstral-as-scum have unvoted Bulba away from L-1 early on? And why do you think no one has been pushing Bulba today?

I would argue that refusing to consider posts as content if they don't contain words is kind of shooting yourself in the foot. You're deliberately not using information available to you.

How is Dunn a townread

I haven't tried putting together a proper towncase before! it feels like it might be confbias city.

Basically:
-the way he acted as a regulating force on the town at the start of the game by unvoting on speed wagons
-pointing out errors and inconsistencies (at least mine) without necessarily using that as an attempt to segue into a push
-pointing out things like Bulba replacing in and PM not saving himself, which iirc hadn't been noticed by the rest of the game.

Not to mention that if he was scum I think he would have started talking at the start of D2 after his partner was lynched, which is why I was looking for it. It would be incredibly difficult to push the Chosen lynch he needs to win by posting in images, without a partner to work with. It drew negative attention and stopping at daystart would have mostly avoided that.
I can't really imagine solo scum doing it - it feels far more like something a townie would do for fun until they realised they might get lynched for it.

I still think Dunn is scummy, but You've convinced me to look elsewhere. I'm willing to switch my vote to BTD but I'm not going to hammer without at least saying something about it.

[Gorny]

UNVOTE: Dunnstral


Hammering VOTE: BTD6

[Gorny]

Whelp that went well.

VOTE: Dunnstral

[Gorny]

Hmmm.

That does make sense.

I'm going to reread over lunch, also going to look over Mulch's interactions with other people. At work now though, might not post again for another 10 hours or so.

UNVOTE: Dunnstral

[Gorny]

VOTE: Keychain

Keychain was pushing for the lynch of BTD both days. On day 1 this was also to protect PM. She specifically wanted BTD over LUV over here:

Why LUV instead of BTD6, though? Their actions have been scummier in general - before they went on V/LA, all they contributed was theory spec. Then they left an RVS vote in place when they left.

The more I think about it, the more I get suspicious, ugh. Too much like someone just watching a town pull itself apart.
VOTE: BTD6_maker

She even tried to push on Mulch the other chosen townie, even when he had been very town with his vote on day 1.

I think she's had some good town reads of people, but that's because she knows everyone else is town. I still think she made good points on Dunnstral being town. It's just her reason for that argument was to get us to lynch a chosen townie over a normal one. I've had some paranoia over her town read of me, and now I think that's justified.

Plus, I think everyone else is town.

Hmmm.

That does make sense.

I'm going to reread over lunch, also going to look over Mulch's interactions with other people. At work now though, might not post again for another 10 hours or so.

UNVOTE: Dunnstral

Going through the game looking at Keychain and Mulch like I said I would do.

@Tman, if Keychain is scum like you say then the following points make sense from her being scum/would be more or less coming from scum!keychain, or seem so make more sense of she's scum:

Spoiler: stuff

I suppose mafia could think it's a good idea to trade a mafia for a chosen townie (I wouldn't), but this would always be a possibility when someone is at L-1. I'm not opposed to people being at L-1, my concern was with people being at unanounced L-1.

I don't think I quite explained what I meant. Logically, mafia will only quickhammer when it's

in their best interests

(or they at least think it is). So it would probably leave us in a worse position if they did it, not better like you suggested in 28.

However - my vote is on you more for meekly following popular opinion on two page 1 wagons than for a theory disagreement.

VOTE: PMysterious

Hey Bulba, did you realise Dunn unvoted and so it was L-2 or was this almost a quickhammer?

Bolded and underlined: Placing a vote on someone for following an opinion makes sense if she's scum, then that way when that someone flips town, she can say she voted because the other player was following an opinion of someone else and not voting based off something they themselves found scum worthy.

^That was a weird post, Gorny. It seemed like it was trying to say something useful but didn't say a lot of anything - just agreed with someone, hypothesised about an extremely unlikely game mechanic, and promised not to quickhammer when I don't think you even can after Dunn's unvote.
Do you think Dunn's posting is suspicious? You called it a potential "ploy", after all.


@Bulbazoor:
I actually would like to hear a response to this.

VOTE: PMysterious

Hey Bulba, did you realise Dunn unvoted and so it was L-2 or was this almost a quickhammer?

@Mod: Request for Dunn to communicate using words.

No no, I want to see how long he can keep it up for!

Also in the above post, and the comment about me not wanting to quickhammer when she did not think I could after Dun's unvote, She makes it seem like my intention was not to quickhammer there and then, with no comment or thought that I might have meant I wouldn't quickhammer at all.

- Skipping over most of the back and forth about when I wasn't believing in Dunn's posting method as it's beating a dead horse.

169 Mulch says PM is Gut scummy before PM's lynch and PM flipped scum.

Wondering if Mulches death at night was in retaliation? Just a random thought.

180 Glad we agree? Or glad that scum!keychain has town players agreeing with her to vote other town players? More to the point glad that the agreement to lynch was on a chosen townie? Hmm...

192 She did not like the PM lynch (makes sense if PM was her scum partner), and is pushing BTD who flipped Chosen

Also noting my 201 Where I pointed out keychain for possibly being PM's scum partner and the fact that she never voted PM, and the rest of the commentary in that post.

I've come around on Gorny. I think he's town. A couple reasons. He moved away from the Bulbazoor wagon onto Dunnstral which could doesn't mean too much because PM wasn't in much danger at the time, but he decided to stick on that vote which wasn't gaining any traction even after PM was in danger. Then today, he seemed a bit mixed up on the fact that LUV was killed last night. It could be an act, but It doesn't seem like it to me.

At this point, I'm thinking PM's partner was on the BTD wagon. I know it's not me, so I'm thinking one of Dunnstral or Keychain. Haven't quite decided who I think is more likely.

@Gorny: Why?

This concerns me. Specifically the part where Tman says he knows PM's partner wasn't him. Normally I would be cautious and it would come down to who I believe more: Tman saying he's not PM's partner or Keychain. (we all know in mafia a lie can be anywhere and nothing is as it seems most of the time, however the vote count tallies help me make up my mind here. TM never voted PM, same for Keychain. I could go with the line of thinking that tman is/could be scum for that

BUT

even though both Tman and Keychain had no votes on PM...keychain for sure voted Tman early on. Add that in with the push on BTD, and Keychain looks much more scummy than Tman.

I don't think Tman is scum based on the above.

Oh god Dunnstral is still only posting in pictures. I'm laughing but I'm also crying.

There's no one correct way to play Mafia Keychain

Very true. If there was, it would be a terribly boring game! That said, I don't really know why you chose to respond this way to my post and why you thought it was relevant at daystart.

I think I'm a chosen townie

1) I have good tonwncred position

2) I wasn't nightkilled

3) Agent Jin was very likely one of the people NOT chosen to be not chosen.

VOTE: Mulch
There is only one member of the scum team left. They are going to be very keen on keeping themselves alive. This sounds like you're trying to make yourself unlynchable and it concerns me.

^ If keychain is scum then she is very keen on staying alive eh?

VOTE: keychain

You are scum who need to push a chosen townie to win

Home run by mulch?

And you led a counter wagon to save a buddy

Followed by a shot to to the outfield too.

VOTE: keychain

You are scum who need to push a chosen townie to win

There are two chosen townies, aren't there? I'm pretty sure everyone in this game is easier to lynch than you right now. So why would I be trying to push you instead of the other one?
On the other hand, there's only one scum.

It seems your genius plan here is to claim to be a chosen townie to give you a reason to OMGUS anyone who scumreads you.

And you led a counter wagon to save a buddy

Then why did you vote Dunn at the start of the day and not me?


Your hair-trigger reaction to my vote is way out of proportion for a townie.

Busing is much worse for scum in this set up because they can lose without ever being lynched.

How does this follow?

I know Mulch made the PM lynch happen. But if he can then sell himself as a chosen townie because of things like not getting NKed and not being a likely veto, the bus becomes worthwhile, and Mulch is someone I can see trying to pull it off.

But how does only having one scum mean they're more likely to somehow get endgamed?

Is that why you NK'd him that night keychain? Because you knew already.


Way out of proportion... but its right I bet.

240 ---> BTD: "At this moment scum want to try to avoid being detected through associations with PMysterious. In particular, my observation at the start of the game should provide interesting information.

I don't think Keychain responded to my observation, and they didn't have that much content on PMysterious. This evidence at the moment is quite weak, but it could lean slightly towards them being scum with PMysterious."

^ DING DING! (it fits in with everything else)

Keychain 273: "To be honest I'm pretty bloody wary of Mulch's scumplay, and so I'm seeing him through that lens. There's the possibility that he thought by bussing his partner he could throw heavy suspicion on chosen townies. But mostly his reiterating that he's possibly a chosen townie and then reacting like that to my vote give me terrible feelings.

You are doing great because your questioning of Gorny shows a focus on trying to get information that will help you evaluate who is town and who is scum."

Mulch's scum play?? This tosses up a red flag for me, especially now that Mulch was NK'd. Also possible that her comment on tman's questioning of me keeps the attention off her there.

277 STill pushing a BTD lynch.

Umlaut, the way you manage to start each day on a new page will never fail to impress me!

VOTE: Keychain

Keychain was pushing for the lynch of BTD both days. On day 1 this was also to protect PM. She specifically wanted BTD over LUV over here:

Why LUV instead of BTD6, though? Their actions have been scummier in general - before they went on V/LA, all they contributed was theory spec. Then they left an RVS vote in place when they left.

The more I think about it, the more I get suspicious, ugh. Too much like someone just watching a town pull itself apart.
VOTE: BTD6_maker

She even tried to push on Mulch the other chosen townie, even when he had been very town with his vote on day 1.

I think she's had some good town reads of people, but that's because she knows everyone else is town. I still think she made good points on Dunnstral being town. It's just her reason for that argument was to get us to lynch a chosen townie over a normal one. I've had some paranoia over her town read of me, and now I think that's justified.

So tell me:
Why do you say you think I had good town reads when you were also paranoid of my town read on you?
Same question I asked Mulch - scum only need one Chosen townie lynched, so why would I have been pushing both? How does that make me more likely to be scum?

VOTE: BTD6_maker

Ok. You've convinced me. Dunnstral does seem town.

This is now L-1 on BTD.

I still think Dunn is scummy, but You've convinced me to look elsewhere. I'm willing to switch my vote to BTD but I'm not going to hammer without at least saying something about it.

I'm suspicious of both of the above last minute jumps on the BTD6 wagon with no reasons given. I've made it pretty clear I thought Dunn was town, so yes I'm going to go out of my way to avoid him getting lynched for stupid reasons and try and get my scumread lynched instead.

However I

don't

think I defended him to the point that two people would suddenly jump off of his wagon - I find it very likely that one of you was taking the opportunity to get the BTD6 lynch through with minimum responsibility. I make some bad pushes as town, but the bright side is that scum are easily caught jumping aboard.

Given the way Gorny opened with

Whelp that went well.

VOTE: Dunnstral

a vote on Dunnstral after hammering BTD6 because I "convinced him to look elsewhere", I think it may be him.

VOTE: Gorny

Hmmm.

That does make sense.

I'm going to reread over lunch, also going to look over Mulch's interactions with other people. At work now though, might not post again for another 10 hours or so.

UNVOTE: Dunnstral

Being convinced of anything and everything is not a town trait. If Gorny is scum, we are making his job very easy - all he has to do is weakly push Dunn and jump on whatever wagons town present to him.

Here's the thing keychain:

I'm not scum.

So it's going to come down to who people believe, based on all of the above I believe you are scum and maybe you're nervous like you said in 335 because therels a chance that things might backfire against you?

if you are scum, it doesn't matter who you think is scum over anyone else, a lynch of any one of us is what you need to stay afloat.

So, Im going to shoot another hole in your life raft: VOTE: keychain

tman2nd
Gorny
BTD6_maker
Mulch
Wait untl I get more townreads

That was my scumpool btw

Can you elaborate a bit more on those?

Bulba an answer would be nice. You never explained that but instead voted me in 340

[Gorny]

Is that.all you can come up with keychain?

Weaksauce.




Like



Not even





Spicy





At



All.

[Gorny]

Oh yeah, you're at L-1.

[Gorny]

Well played.

TBH the game setup wasn't one I liked but I did not want to just drop it and replace out. I'm more for games where yu don;t know what the setup is going in and everthing's a question mark.