Micro 764: Marked For Death #2 - Game Over

[Mathdino]

WOOOOO FIRST

VOTE: Not_Mafia

I feel like we've played a game together before but I really can't remember which.

[Mathdino]

This is a better wagon.

VOTE: Jaydragon

Serious vote

[Mathdino]

GG Jaydragon VOTE: Jaydragon

Is this vote serious?

Not a rhetorical question, just wondering.

[Mathdino]

Whoa what the hell

Give me a minute

[Mathdino]

So to those of you scumreading me based on my 2 posts:

"Serious vote" doesn't mean "I actually believe this person is scum". I looked into JaydragonKing's meta and thought she'd (she? correct me if wrong) be a good choice for a scumbait wagon. She seems to act scummy automatically. Won't go into more detail because of ongoing games.

Point is, Jay is IMO pretty obviously town so
UNVOTE: JaydragonKing
while I work out wtf just happened

[Mathdino]

NSG is town. I buy the reaction test gambit.

@Elsa

: I agree with Lynch All Liars except in the specific case of reaction test. The "hammer" on me and "I'm a double voter, were you scum?" is a cheeky move trying to get me to think I was lynched and, if I were scum, to claim scum. I buy it.

NSG is town and if you have votes on her, get them off.

I'm undecided but leaning town on Golden Paradox:

VOTE: JaydragonKing
I really don't like post #9. Would a town player commit this idiocy?

This is a dumb post, as is the intent to hammer joke. Would a scum player commit this idiocy? I tentatively think not.

Not Mafia jumping on both my scumbait Jay wagon AND putting me at L-1 during RVS with no explanation is very bad and deserves some explaining.
VOTE: Not_Mafia

Reads list in descending towniness:

NSG

: See above.

Jaydragonking

: More of a gut read, but trust me when I say that their page 1 play is literally every game with them. This feels like the same old Jay with a town flavour.
Gamma Emerald: Seemingly earnest vote on me, seemingly earnest about scumhunting.
chesskid: Nothing one way or the other really.
Shawn: Hasn't posted yet.

Not_Mafia

: See above.

[Mathdino]

EBWOP: Left out GoldenParadox, who is between Jay and Gamma in my reads list.

[Mathdino]

Because it's like going to DEFCON 2 over seeing a UFO. Creates unnecessary chaos and leaves the risk open to someone screwing up and screwing everyone over, especially with the more than a few new-ish players here.

PEdit: @Jay: I'm a lazy jackass. New players are the easiest to do meta on because there's very little effort I have to put into it. I meta'd all the new players before the game started.

[Mathdino]

Jay and Golden is super TvT. Please don't clog up the thread with unrelated stuff.

[Mathdino]

Guys, we have things to look at and read into. Continued off topic stuff is anti town. I have a hunch we'll end up having people replace into this game eventually.

Questions for all:

chesskid3:

Thoughts on each player's role in the Mathdino wagon?

Gamma:

I think I have a pretty clear idea but just to make sure, could you elaborate on the page 1 scumread?

JaydragonKing:

Is your Paradox vote a serious scumread? What are your thoughts on each player's vote on you? And are you multiple people?

northsidegal:

To answer your question, half the people who voted me clearly expressed a scumread on me. Get anything out of your reaction test btw?

Not_Mafia:

Give reads please. This applies to everyone but especially you. You haven't expressed any game-relevant opinions yet.

Golden Paradox:

Yo give me some serious reads aside from JaydragonKing. Who would you be voting if not them?

[Mathdino]

I was going to give you the benefit of the doubt, but reading your one other game you got on your record, your scum partner was lynched day one, and you ragequit and self-hammered day 2.

I can say that your have not left a good impression on me.

I also read this game, and this is incredibly unfair. He was a common townread until the cop all but outed a mafia result on him come D2 morning. Everyone knew it. TGP played a good game for a newbie. I put the responsibility of his partner's lynch on his partner.

Everyone's vote that wasn't Paradox's vote on me was a joke, so I'm fine. My vote on Paradox is a counter vote and is subject to being moved, but since I don't suspect anybody (yet) I'm just joking around while looking for clues.

Jay and Elsa are one, yet not one. Make with that what you will.

My vote was entirely serious just ftr. I think we have enough info to at least start coming up with "this person leans town" and "this person leans scum". Don't be so cautious. There won't be any smoking guns D1. You should want to have posts that people can seriously analyse instead of just jokes.

Also re Jay/Elsa is this some sort of personal identity thing? I'm cool with it but I just wanna be clear.

[Mathdino]

But... Post #9 was justified given the circumstances, and it was *kinda* stupid for me to vote Elsa just because of that. For now,
UNVOTE: JaydragonKing

This is actually the first TGP post I'm feeling super iffy about. Feels like backpedaling for optical reasons.

Honestly I don't make much of anything right now this is a weird start to a game

I'm not answering your question but currently I like Jay for scum based on feeling like there has to be scum in the shitposters of pages 2 and 3 and liking NSG + Mathdino as town

I don't like chesskid tbh. I see his content, but I also don't see much added to the discussion. Feels like going through the motions of scumhunting. And "there has to be scum in the shitposters" needs more explanation. Do you mean probabilistically or for other reasons?

On Gamma:

1: that's normal Not_Mafia, I believe I have a tell but last time I used it I might have been wrong? Depends which game it was in.
2: I don't feel like Golden is as towny as you do. I feel like he's trying to defend himself with shoddy arguments.

Jay and Golden is super TvT. Please don't clog up the thread with unrelated stuff.

No, and what are you calling "unrelated"?

1. I'm interested in being convinced Not_Mafia isn't as scummy as he seems. Elaborate?
2. I still disagree slightly but I understand.
3. The shitposting after RVS is clearly over. I don't like making catchup harder.

Okay. chesskid, I will say that you might have some competition from me because I sometimes have potato scumteam guesses that turn out to be right. And since you say you're not overlooking things, what do you think about TGP?

So Gamma is unrepentantly pushing an agenda. I'm into it. Gamma is probably town.

[Mathdino]

NSG

Gamma

: Openly redirecting the convo to TGP. Town or gutsy scum.

Jaydragonking

: Gut read remains.
GoldenParadox: Feeling okay except for post 81 which is hilariously sketchy.
Shawn: Still hasn't posted.

chesskid

: Feels like he wants to look like he's scumhunting without actually scumhunting.

Not_Mafia

: Awaiting being convinced this is wrong.

[Mathdino]

I can tell given that NSG is your main scumread, haha.

Where do you get those vibes from Shawn?

[Mathdino]

I know meta is trash does Golden usually confidently state such garbage as reasons someone tell me

I'm trying to play my favorite game

"Dumb or scum"

TGP only has a scum game. Seems like the kind of player where VI behavior is non alignment indicative.

Honestly even without meta this seems like a town game. The double reads list with slightly changed placements for no reason is hilarious and not the kind of pointless inconsistency I see from scum.

[Mathdino]

@chesskid, what's your read on math?

Not to answer for him, but I'm pretty sure he scumreads me, haha. I would be interested in him explaining more but my current understanding is he's not into me pandering.

My previous flaw was tunneling too hard. I'm trying to counter that by allowing people to shift my opinions when they're making sense. Let go of ego and all that.

I'd also be interested in hearing chesskids other scumreads. This entire game feels super off to me. Lot of VI behavior and I'm having trouble sorting it.

[Mathdino]

I did previously but I'm not at all sold on that.

Current theory is scum are avoiding stances on everything but I'm a huge liar and never did that reread I said I would do

I mean I agree with you (I'm actually town reading the players who are idiotically tunneling the most). The problem is the stance avoidance is exactly what you're doing and is why I'm scumreading you xD

I'm torn on vote placement. Just lost an off site game by getting mislynched for pushing people too much (the site has a messed up meta) so I'm super unconfident about things. We'll see tomorrow when more people weigh in.

[Mathdino]

Doesn't anyone think that chesskid is maf?

Uh, I do. Did you see my mini case? I'm just voting Not Maf for now.

[Mathdino]

Can those of you who suspect NSG please explain why? I honestly don't see it at all. I'm happy to write a short towncase if someone puts up a scumcase.

[Mathdino]

Why Northsidegal is Town

VOTE: mathdino

intent to hammer

well, haven't seen any convincing reason against this and i think the day has dragged on long enough.
VOTE: mathdino

well, were you scum?

NSG is a relatively fresh player who fires off the day with a reaction test on me (which I actually believed, haha). The point of the test is to see if I would claim scum. I wish I could say that was alignment indicative, but I don't ever claim scum even after the lynch goes through. NSG of course wouldn't know what I would do, and I think that was a super protown move of her.

To be clear, the ONLY reason she would do that as scum is to get a lot of towncred for that move. Reaction testing me has 0 other benefit if she were scum and knew I was town. So I very much bought/buy this for now.

North cannot vote twice. THERE ARE ONLY VTS AND MGS IN THE GAME.
mathdino;

INTENT TO HAMMER

mathdino

UNVOTE:

NSG unvotes the moment that someone declares intent to hammer. This is an incredibly pro-town move that again ONLY benefits her if she's trying to get towncred for it. She easily could've just kept her vote on me (and not posted), waiting for me to get lolhammered. Makes it very clear it wasn't her intent to actually get me lynched.

shawn, when you get a chance i'd like to hear why you scumread me.

@chesskid, what's your read on math?

getting any vibes from anyone else? any good vibes on people?

Doesn't anyone think that chesskid is maf?

why do you think that?

Every other post she's made has been some kind of pointed question to help create discussion. This shows I think a genuine effort. I'm interested in her reads but I'm not really interested in sorting NSG at this point.

The reason I'm defending her so hard is that EVEN IF she's mafia, she's actually helping town more than mafia by creating that discussion, asking good questions, and testing people to sort them. So to me a lynch on her today is completely off the table. I see 0 reason to lynch her over someone less helpful to us.

[Mathdino]

Resorting:

NSG

Gamma

: Defended Not_Mafia to me, and constantly redirects the convo to GoldenParadox. A few moves I don't think scum would do. Can write up a minicase here too if anyone's interested but no one's scumreading Gamma.

Jaydragonking

: I feel pretty good about this read. That said, this is gonna get shot to hell if Not_Mafia flips town. I do NOT think Jay and Not_Mafia are both town.
chesskid: My scumread on him was based on lazy behavior that seemed designed to look like he's helping. Now I legitimately believe he was just lazy. I think all that was at worst non-alignment indicative, and at best slightly townish.
Shawn Spencer: I mean he's posting but none of it is any good. Like my read on Jay, a lot of this will be dependent on NM's flip.
GoldenParadox: I'm feeling a lot less sure of him. The backpedaling in 81 and the fact that he's basically sheeping all my reads makes me uneasy. That said, I'm not sure why scum would have the motivation to post a slightly updated reads list from 113 to 119. I still could very much see TGP as scum but we'll see.

Not_Mafia

: I'm entirely unconvinced we shouldn't lynch this guy. I think he's scum but there's also a good argument for policying him.

Some possible scumteams I have in mind:
Not_Mafia/TheGoldenParadox: NM for previously stated reasons. TGP null-scumread him, but isn't voting him. TGP sheeps the town's reads except for helping pressure NM.
ShawnSpencer/JaydragonKing: If/when NM flips town, this is my target scumteam. Seems opportunistic that they both jump on the NM wagon without really contributing all that much else. Post 145 was some weird interaction between them though. I'm not sure if that helps or hurts my point.

[Mathdino]

Now that I think about it I could also see

Not_Mafia/GammaEmerald: Gamma brings pressure off NM and redirects to the VI GoldenParadox. NM continues to do nothing.

I really want to see NM's flip; lots of associatives are based around people's reactions to him. I would be advocating for a lynch right now if it weren't for the replacement. After replacement catches up, I think we should go ahead and lynch to get more info for tomorrow. The fact that no one will die tonight is also pretty nice and makes me less willing to drag the day out in the name of caution.

[Mathdino]

woop woop, Townies for the win!

Yo
do something
you voted goldenparadox literally as an OMGUS vote
do you actually have a case against him

vote not_mafia

or idk do something helpful

[Mathdino]

Coming up for air after a Not_Mafia metadive. I see no reason right now to change my vote.

That said, Schism is my kind of player. I want him around because he reads to me like a generally pro-town easy-to-sort-in-lategame kind of guy. Putting him at null-town for now.

Doesn't mean I agree with him:

I will not be joining the Not_Mafia wagon because this is N_M we are talking about, this is how he posts. I'm not counting putting someone at L-1 in Lylo twice as a scumread because of N_M and the fact that barely anything of note is in pages 1-4.

Paradox rubs me the wrong way, opposite feeling of how i feel for Dino. JayElsa is Suspect Number two for me because theres ALOT of fluff involved that seemingly looks like its town, but im not buying in on it yet. Paradox is a better wagon, but JayElsa is voting him, making me want to vote Jay over Golden. I'll need to do more research on that.

@Dino

Im assuming you have Played a game with N_M? This is his playstyle and I agree its annoying, but PL is not in the books for today and I would rather lynch scum in Jay/Para. Since you read Jay as town, any way I can convince you to move on to Golden. Hes mafia acting like hes town. I dont like his posting and I know you dont either. Other than Association with N_M, I dont think JayElsa is a townread for the same reasons. There isn't much in the ISO and fluff is scummy past the first few pages.

1. N_M is a consistent gameflaking auto-hammerer who plays slightly better as scum by taking refuge in audacity. He trolls to victory and coasts on the players who are scared of lynching him. I see no reason to believe he gives a shit about the game as town. As scum, we'll severely regret not lynching him now.

2. This entire game is fluffy. I've done research on both:
GoldenParadox: Only has a scum game. Seems like the type that doesn't really have scumtells/towntells. That said, his being here and discussing is helpful for town.
JayElsa: I'm concerned that you didn't also do a meta on Jay. You'd find that, like Not_Mafia, he's an easy mislynch because he acts

off

all the time. There's at least SOMETHING in the ISO however, and he is generally a somewhat useful player if you can get past the overwhelming scumminess.

3. I have played a game with him 3 years ago. He was the bare minimum of helpful and then flaked as town. Gonna talk about him in next post.

[Mathdino]

Why Wagon Not_Mafia?

This is what I've learned so far from metaing him:
- Town: He doesn't post his thoughts, is on the defencive a lot, makes a lot of naked votes.
- Scum: Sometimes posts his thoughts, does a "too scummy to be scum" act, and hurts town trying to look like he's just good old VI Not_Mafia.
- BOTH: He quickhammers, flakes, and hogs all the attention until his lynch (which often happens Day 1).

This is a problem. I disagree that he'll become easy to sort later; the only alignment indicative thing I can see is that he replaces out more often as town. If he'd actually posted his thoughts while at L-1 I might've considered moving, but I hold my votes until I see reason to change. He's holding his RVS vote on me and is practically a non-player.

Here's what will happen this game if we leave him alive:
- Town: He'll remain an easy mislynch target and will never, ever be NK'd, leading to a horrible LyLo which he'll probably fuck up.
- Scum: He'll get by on "too scummy to be scum", hammer town, and generally be unsortable.
- Either: He sees it as a positive point to hammer people. If he's not scum, he helps scum.

1. He's anti-town, is the definition of a great policy lynch, and is equally anti-town as scum.

2. If we don't lynch him now, he's going to continue being a source of chaos later.

Since he is currently the center of a lot of attention, we can see a lot of associatives from his wagon. We're in a unique game where Day 1 is nightless in a way, where we'll have the same number of players tomorrow but with more information. Not_Mafia is the most high-information lynch. Every player has an opinion on him.

3. His flip will be the best piece of information we'll have going forward.

If TGP or Jay flips town, we're back at square one probably trying to lynch Not_Mafia. If either flips scum, well, that's still somewhat consistent with Not_Mafia being scum. Doesn't help us. And both of those players are actually contributing! Those are people we can sort later when they have more to talk about.

I am only willing to compromise on the condition that we lynch his ass tomorrow.

Keep in mind I see this as non-ideal. I would rather decide on a D2 lynch after NM's flip than lynch in the dark D1 and then default to NM on D2. But he will get lynched sooner or later. But if we can't get a hammer on him today and someone promises to lynch him tomorrow, I'm slightly okay moving off him.

[Mathdino]

Thanks for showing up Schism.

I'm ready for a hammer. I'd hammer already if I could. I don't really see this day or my reads going anywhere at this point. A smoking gun is unlikely. I won't even hold it against you if you hammer, Schism.

Here's what the rest of the day will look like if this continues:

Gamma

: Will make a few pointed observations and a couple questions and continue to be townread. Note that he initially didn't vote NM because of meta, but then (presumably) did a meta check and did vote him. Probably won't change significantly.

Jay

: Will continue derping around and drawing suspicion, potentially getting himself lynched, or start voting other people over inconsequential stuff.

northsidegal

: V/LA until Friday, at which point she'll continue asking sporadic pointed questions without really shifting the gamestate too much.

Not_Mafia

: If he's not helping out at L-1, I see no reason to believe he'll suddenly start helping. Plus he helps more as scum so

Schism

: More cases on TGP and Jay, along with reads on other players that we could just get tomorrow anyway. Probably won't be scumread by a lot of people.

GoldenParadox

: Continue a sort of weird VI-like behaviour, with no smoking gun suggesting he's town, and instead just kind of argue with people.

It's a static low-activity game. I think we all need new information to talk about.

[Mathdino]

But largely what I'd expect a town Mathdino to come back with

I believe this is scum trying to make it look like I'm bussing him after he flips scum.

Or he's not thinking that hard. Who knows.

Re: chesskid's replace: That guy is an alt, there's no meta on him.

TGP is looking pretty bad if NM flips town but we need the flip.

[Mathdino]

Are you talking about chesskid or Schism? Schisms definitely an alt. I'm not super interested in metadiving chesskid being lazy, unless someone thinks it's actually alignment indicative. I'm kind of just ignoring chesskid in favor of Schism.

[Mathdino]

Not_Mafia selfhammering would be unprecedented. He usually hammers other people.

I didn't say we WOULDN'T hang NotMaf, but we're not hanging him immediately. And it's not like you can stop me from extending the game anyway.

To end today, one of four things will happen.

NotMaf will vote himself, which would be the smart but boring way.
NSG decided to come out of V/LA to hammer, which is suspicious as hell considering her current opinion
I vote him when I want to vote him with nothing the four of you can do about it.
Or Schism jumps in and immediately hammers, which would make him literally the easier day 2 Lynch to ever happen.

I believe you're town for this, but I'm still questioning why you want to extend the day. We'll have the same set of players on D2, and one townie will be able to semi-confirm themselves.

What more would you like out of D1?

[Mathdino]

No, actually, it's BECAUSE it'll make me look more scummy that I'm doing it. If I look more scummy, I'm less likely to be marked, and henceforth die. This way, I get to live till the end!

The day deserves to end. I'm not going to put it on anyone head, hammering him. He's been given his chance, everyone's been given their chance. We'll reevaluate tomorrow based on the info at hand.

Pro-tip: Like I said, I think you're town for this, but remember that scum's primary goal is to not get lynched. Town shouldn't care about being scummy as much. Self consciousness is exactly one of those uncomfortable things that (I assume) gets you suspected a lot.

Can also do a towncase on Jay if they become a lynch target tomorrow but not sure if I'll care that much. They're not at the top of my lynchlist when day breaks.

[Mathdino]

To be fair it's literally Christmas season. I don't really mind if a lot of people are inactive during that time.

The chance of the scum being NSG/Gamma is hilariously low to me, and if it's that, I think we've lost already. The game will go on, we'll still have people to scumhunt.

Also I think I've misinterpreted what Jay is doing.
What I thought he was saying: I'm not hammering because hammering makes me look scummy.
What he was actually saying: I'm trying to be scummier so scum doesn't NK me.

Which is lolworthy and, if scum, is literally scum pretending to be noobtown.

[Mathdino]

What we got to talk about is the fact that you want to delay this hammer. Because of the mark of death, as mathdino said, notmafia's flip will help us sort people. You're looking increasingly scummy. Is it because you don't want to bus your scum partner?

how does not mafia's flip help you sort people? what kind of conclsuive associative information would you get from that, if he was either alignment?

He's (once again) sheeping me on this. Do you want his answer or mine, given that I started that argument?

Check my ISO for a post on associations I've made so far regarding NM's wagon.

[Mathdino]

Well, Jay's probably going to listen to you Gamma, so:

Gamma: You're here, so you have your space.
Jay: Has had a lot of time to state their pieces lol
me: I'm done for today like I said
NSG: Still V/LA
Not_Mafia: Has been at L-1 more than long enough to state his piece, and still has his vote on me while townreading me...
Schism: We've seen his cases.
Shawn: Has left a wanting performance.
TGP: Is beginning to get into an argument with Schism.

I think the only ones that we'd be waiting on if Jay decides to wait til everyone "states their piece" are NSG and Shawn. One involves waiting til Friday, and one hasn't posted since Sunday.

@Mod: Request Prod on Shawn Spencer. It's been 57 hours.

[Mathdino]

Well, I literally said what I meant in post 226. If you interpretated that as me trying to be reasonable and defend myself as town, Your talking to the wrong player. Oh, and hey Gamma. -- Elsa

No matter what, mafia will NK a townie. There's no reason strategically that you should want them to NK a different townie over you, unless you're uncomfortable with the responsibility of being tomorrow's confirmed townie.

[Mathdino]

You realise that hammering is something that makes people scummier to most people on this site?

I'm 80% sure scum won't NK you as long as you're a mislynch target. Given that a couple players suspect you, you very much could be mislynched at LyLo. Congrats, I guess.

Based purely on the "Scum kills people who are townread the most" philosophy, NSG and I are the most likely targets. This discounts any WIFOM that comes from "oh man did scum kill them because their reads were right, or because their reads were wrong????" which I refuse to get into this game.

[Mathdino]

After reevaluating, I think I was a lot lazier in meta-ing Jay than I'd like to have been. Their only completed game is a scum game, in which behaviours included:

- "If I was scum, I would have done [x]"
- Strong concern for survival
- Defending themselves until told to start scumhunting

I'm trying to figure out what I was thinking previously; I assume when I first meta'd Jay, that game hadn't completed, and I thought they were town in that game. I would argue that a town meta is significantly more useful than a scum meta. So all that previous stuff I was saying was useless.

One thing I didn't see was Jay openly trying to dodge the nightkill. That said, I think I underestimated scum-Jay on my initial readthrough of that game, and I entirely believe this is something that they could deliberately fake.

Whatever the case, we'll see what happens tomorrow. To me at least, Jay got scummier as that game progressed, so I'm comfortable leaving them alive today.

PEdit: You're not wrong. TGP is next on my lynchlist. I'm just uncomfortable lynching an active player while 2 players aren't totally in the game yet.

[Mathdino]

If NM flips town, I'm feeling pretty strongly that Schism vs TGP is TvS. Doesn't feel like bussing (notice Schism attempting to redirect a wagon he could've helped), and doesn't feel like TvT (gut, and the fact that Schism would be giving me goosebumps if I didn't think TGP was scummier).

Let's see, if NM flips town, we'll have
D2: 7 players alive, 1 marked.
D3: 5 players alive, 1 marked.

So we can handle 1 more mislynch. Meaning that if I'm right about Schism vs TGP we can at least get to 3p LyLo for sure. Doesn't seem super fair for town but I'm feeling pretty good about our chances.

PEdit: Haven't read the above post yet

[Mathdino]

N_M is also an easy mislynch mafia can ride on for a safe lynch in D1. I am also not scared of voting him. I have better reads on JayElsa and Paradox who I think are mafia for actual in game reasons vs. Policy/Trolling.

Problem is, you townread them. So the question would be who is your second mafia pick? I'd rather vote that today. I can also promise you I can vote N_M if I'm wrong tomorrow but Im pretty sure on Paradox.

That's fair actually.

I'm confused on Paradox. I was as of my last reads list seeing him as a scumpartner with NM due to redirecting the wagon and suspecting him but not voting him. At this point, given that he's in survival mode trying to make sure the NM lynch goes through, I'm not so sure. He's certainly my go-to now if NM is town.

I see your suspicion of Jay. I'd like your narrative on what he's doing with regards to the NM wagon. That's the main unreconcilable part of the case on him to me. Do you believe:

A. He's partners with Not_Mafia hoping that you'll lead the town into a TGP lynch?
B. NM is town, and Jay is basking in the towncred for not hammering?

Also, do you believe TGP and Jay are scum together?

[Mathdino]

Currently the only players I can reconcile as scumpartners with Not_Mafia are Schism and Jay. This makes me uncomfortable. If NM is scum with someone else, I've fallen for some pretty good distancing.

Those of you also on the NM wagon

: Help me out with this. Say NM flips scum. Who do we lynch tomorrow?

[Mathdino]

Reevaluate your read on JayElsa. Honestly even if you think JayElsa is town, what would make you think he/she/they are a good mark anyways vs. You and Lurkers.

For sure Jay wouldn't be marked. I'm saying that Jay's concern for survival was more "I'm openly thinking ahead to make sure I don't get lynched" than "I'm trying to be scummier so scum doesn't kill me", which would be an unprecedented move for them.

I assume your response is that Jay is faking concern for being killed to gain towncred?

[Mathdino]

Just for the record, I'm not really concerned with how you defend yourself to my suspicions, because any scum worth their salt (you, going by your last game) will shift/modify their game to be less scummy in response.

Unless I say something factually wrong, focus your energy on something else.

[Mathdino]

UNVOTE: Not_Mafia
VOTE: GoldenParadox

@Schism:

I'm not sure if we're understanding each other. If Jay truthfully fears being marked, then they're definitely town. Their stated reasons for not hammering are:

1. I want the day to go on longer to hear more people
a. for fun
b. to see what people think
2. I want to be scummier on purpose so I don't get marked tonight, because the game is more fun when I'm alive.

[Mathdino]

I shouldn't answer for Jay, but

"Not to answer for him" --> immediately answers for him

Jay clearly didn't want to hammer NM yet. My assumption is that they're just keeping their vote on TGP because... I'm not totally sure now that I reread.

Elsa: Your too worried about the little things.

Following my heart and hanging this man will benefit us regardless of his alignment

. It will work out for the both of us!

This is pretty bad and is the survival stuff I was talking about.

Keep in mind that NM also has his vote on someone he's townreading but we're giving him a pass on Playstyle. I'm still not sold that Jay's isn't just too-scummy-to-be-scum new-to-MS behaviour. We don't have a towngame on Jay and we probably won't at the very least until ongoing games complete.

I don't have any thoughts on a scummy player being on a wagon I like for bad reasons. That sort of thing doesn't really make me uncomfortable. For all I know it could just be town unintentionally making the right move.

Edit:

Jay

, I'd like a reads list from you as soon as you can get one. Even if a lot of players are null, just do the thing where you talk about everyone a bit.

[Mathdino]

Jay's response is consistent with what I already assumed. MAKING the vote was bad, I agree, but KEEPING the vote I don't think is alignment indicative. If I were similarly deadset on not hammering yet, I'd be doing the same thing.

[Mathdino]

Your scumreads are Not_Mafia and TGP? Do you believe they're a team together?

[Mathdino]

I wasn't. That was a joke lol.
9 is idotic because it shows Elsa saying the f word for no reason out of the blue. Was that meant to scare us or what?

What's wrong with saying fuck?

Nothing wrong with it; just no reason to randomly post a post that shows a children's movie character swearing. Disorienting, I don't think it was funny, and it certainly distracted us. That might have been what she wanted to do to distract us and get the attention off of her.

You're on your own on this one mate

Speaking of that moment, here's some nice hi-quality untainted interaction between the 3 of our top scumspects that we probably won't get again. In which:

TGP barrels after Jay
NM defends Jay against TGP
Jay solidifies the TGP wagon
Jay jumps onto NM
TGP makes fun of Jay
Jay jumps back on the TGP wagon
TGP goes after NM

I'm not confident that there's a scumteam in the 3 of these. This is some weird interaction.

[Mathdino]

Her scumreads are weak. Really weak. In fact, theres no mention of the word "Scum" in there.

Don't fall into the bad at scum hunting = scum trap. Jay is under a lot of fire, if he wanted to make a reads list that didn't suck, he easily could've by throwing away a scumread at Shawn or you. This falls along the lines of not seeing peoples responses to suspicion as alignment indicative unless there's a smoking gun. He really reads to me as a player unfamiliar with the mafiascum way.

I'm just not seeing the Jay case like you do. If we do lynch them I'd rather it be later in the game.

My body is ready for a Paradox L-1 though.

[Mathdino]

Bored, on vacation, and today's the last day that this will be my only game. I've been thinking about reading in terms of motives, between town (usually confused) and scum (usually deliberate). So a couple things from rereading ISOs:

JaydragonKing:

I'm at the point of being straight unwilling to lynch Jay today. A few things just don't make sense to me from a scum perspective. The major thing is the flip-flop on NSG -- NSG was being townread at the point of initial scumread and was acting pretty townish. There's no point in doing this and then later revising to say "yeah never mind NSG isn't a scumread anymore", especially when we're giving Jay shit for not having scumreads. I believe Jay's play makes much more sense as completely directionless town.

GoldenParadox:

See this actually makes somewhat more sense as scum play. Here are a few major problems I have:
- 30: Takes the Jay bait that I specifically set on D1. Going through the motions scumhunting.
- Continues to barrel after Jay until NM and I make it clear that's a bad wagon
- 81: And backpedals off it self-consciously.
- 112: Sheeps my chesskid read from 98 in another going-through-the-motions-scumhunting post.
- 119: Lifts literally my entire reads list with nothing original
- (too lazy to find posts): Tries to fan more flames for a chesskid wagon and backs it off while making a magnanimous "oh let's give the new guy a chance"
- Doubles down on the NM wagon as an alternative to his own.

I'm ignoring the stuff after people start attacking him because I don't really care about defences, but notable is him lining up a lynch on Schism.

He repeatedly goes after low hanging fruit in a way that makes total sense if Jay, NM, and Schism are all town. This is all in addition to sheeping the general views of the most commonly townread player (hey). Then starts complaining that he hasn't hurt town. I think this should be today's lynch.

Schism:

Beginning to feel off about his posts, which is unfortunate since he's definitely an experienced/charismatic player. I'm going to assume for this part that TGP flips town because I don't think Schism vs TGP is bussing. I believe Schism saw that NM would probably be the lynch and decided to try to cash in on towncred for not being on that wagon. He could then mark me, reasonably push the TGP/Jay duo on D2 and D3, and win.

I would argue in terms of scumminess by tone, the scummiest players in the game are in order Not_Mafia, GoldenParadox, and Jay. By pushing the 3rd scummiest, Schism can remain off the big mislynches (NM/TGP) and always have another mislynch target lined up. Scum motivation makes a lot of sense here. If TGP is town, it's entirely logical for him to be pushing Schism.

Gamma:

Similarly, if NM or TGP is town, Gamma looks pretty bad for making TGP a major focus of D1, getting the towncred for not pouncing on the NM wagon, and then hopping on it anyway when NM fucked up. I could very very easily see a Schism/Gamma scumteam.

Modified reads list:

NSG:

Please get back here and help me out lol you're my only unconditional townread

Jay:

Back to townreading this. My gut now has reasons behind it.
Gamma: Drops a spot. Possible lynch if TGP/NM is town.
Shawn: Not much to go off of. Possible scumpartner of TGP.
Not_Mafia: Yeah I changed my mind, crucify me. We should still lynch for unreadability if we run out of other targets. Probably not a TGP/Jay scumpartner.

Schism:

Looking pretty bad if TGP/NM is town.

TGP:

Everything seems to have scum motivation behind it.

[Mathdino]

I'm glad your back, Shawn, but if you would like to elaborate on all your vibes, that would be nice. Mainly the other five players. (Myself included)

sup
work harder
find me a scumpartner for TGP
your reads list isn't great tbh

[Mathdino]

Lolworthy

@Jay: as a real life teacher, you're not wrong.

@Schism/Not_Mafia: sheep me and end today

[Mathdino]

As a player, goddammit NM

As a person, I love you
You know exactly what you're about lol

[Mathdino]

Yeah i entirely knew it too
I just didn't care

[Mathdino]

FIRST

Hey mod, just to be clear, the marked is supposed to get a PM, right? If so, have you sent this?

[Mathdino]

For real?

VOTE: Schism

Jay and NM are off the table today.

NSG now that you're back I really need reads from you.

[Mathdino]

Strong as balls townread. I made a minicase on them in 268.

[Mathdino]

I mean NM is the only player here I think that would lie about that. We'll see if we get a counterclaim from the others soon enough.

I'm 90% sure Gamma is town. He literally hasn't been online since before the lynch. That combined with my initial townread on him.
Plus, I don't think scum would tunnel town that hard when they know what the flip is gonna be.

New reads list (minus the marked):
Gamma
Jay
NSG
Shawn
Schism

PEdit: Uh, wouldn't scum just claim marked instead of actually killing themselves?

Also gimme some of that dope-ass analysis I know you can do from other games

[Mathdino]

Loving it. But that seems to fly in the face of your scumteam suggestion. Or maybe it doesn't. Can you be more specific on:

"marking a townier player" - Like who?
"the most widely townread players" - Like who?
What possible ways are the towniest players completely off on their reads?

Sounds like you have 2 scenarios under your conclusion. From my perspective, here are the implications:
Scenario A: Scum are among the most widely townread players. This would implicate you, Gamma, and for a lot of other people, me.
Scenario B: The towniest players are entirely off on their reads. Given that I ended yesterday wanting to lynch NM and Schism, that would imply they're town, and that scum is in my townreads of {NSG, Gamma, Jay}.

PEdit: Will get to Schism's post. This post written as of 296.

[Mathdino]

NSG, I'd like one of your scumgames too.

@Schism: What NSG said. The best reason I can see for marking Not_Mafia would be to capitalise on the chaos and WIFOM to drive a mislynch today.

[Mathdino]

Well then I'm fresh out of ideas

Here's an idea. Give reads. Say something.

[Mathdino]

I told you guys paradox was town... my gift never wrongs me.

NSG is scum, whos with me!

VOTE: NSG

Give me more

Not_Mafia are you ready to give reads yet? I know you're still online.

[Mathdino]

Any thoughts on today's discussion?

Thoughts on Schism who redirected the game from Not_Mafia to TGP and Jay?

You said yesterday that you thought NM was scum. Has this changed?

[Mathdino]

you're so bad NM
who are we lynching

@Mod:

And to be clear, you had sent that PM as of post 288?

[Mathdino]

Bad at what?

at mafia

are you withholding your vote just so you can hammer someone?

give us some scumreads and reasons

[Mathdino]

what am i supposed to be waiting for

i'm WOTCing you in future games tbh

[Mathdino]

Fifth news: Scum would not lie about being marked this early. That would only make sense in a late game with 5 people left in MyLo situation.

Schism seems pretty convinced Not_Mafia is lying (Gamma being marked is his last hope for that scenario). Think town would lie about being marked?

[Mathdino]

If I was scum,

this sounds familiar
VOTE: JaydragonKing

In seriousness,

@Jay:

Good thoughts. I just want to point out that it's very difficult for people to get out of L-1 in the first place on this site, and that's the point where people usually start writing their last wills. Not_Mafia's hammering tendency is extremely anti-town. The reason I pointed out for marking Not_Mafia was solely for the extra chaos and WIFOM. Note that it now takes me off the "obvtown" list. Now imagine the suspicion if I somehow survived to LyLo.

That said, if NM wasn't marked, we'd probably be locked into a lynch order of Not_Mafia followed by Schism, or vice versa. I think the scum in not marking me, wants to get us away from this lynch order. Hence my Schism vote.

@Schism:

Why are you so convinced that NM lying and Gamma (who won't be back til Christmas) being marked is a more likely scenario than NM just outing his markedness first thing?

I need to know your reads in either scenario.
A. NM lies, and Gamma was marked
B. NM telling the truth

[Mathdino]

forgot this
VOTE: Schism

[Mathdino]

It's interesting that NM is already voting the only guy left to CC his claim.

That said, it'd be kinda weird for NM-scum to try to lynch last night's mark. More reason to believe him I think.

[Mathdino]

we're doomed

[Mathdino]

Spoiler: From TGP's ISO

VOTE: JaydragonKing
I really don't like post #9. Would a town player commit this idiocy?

I really don't like this post [by chesskid]. Extreme hostility from the start. I understand that it is a joke, but the first thing you do is establish *superiority* over everyone else? This looks a bit sketchy to me. Not saying that you are definitely mafia, but for now you're my biggest scum read.
VOTE: chesskid3

My tiers of mafia to not mafia, from top to bottom and left to right towniest to scummiest so far;

Town: Mathdino (Responded well to L-1) , north(note she's mostly here because her avatar is cute, otherwise she's null)
Leaning Town: None
Null: NotF_Mafia (not enough posts to determine), Gamma(same as not-mafia), Jay/Elsa alternate personality roleplay thingy (Mostly joke posts, so not enough info), Shawn(not enough posts to determine)
Leaning Scum: Chesskid (see previous post)

Gonna repost my tiers after rereading
Town: Mathdino (Responded well to L-1 and gambit)
Leaning Town: north(Good gambit, even though it was obviously a joke), Jay/Elsa alternate personality roleplay thingy (I like your joking around, and I feel that your posts do add content to the game and help town),
Null: Shawn(not enough posts to determine) Gamma(I feel he's a little too defensive of notmafia, even though the justification is pretty valid)
Leaning Scum: Not_Mafia (Putting mathdino at L-1 when there are a lot of newbies that might have hammered), Chesskid (see post #112)

Doesn't anyone think that chesskid is maf?

Since chesskid is going to get replaced, I'll consider the next person's posts and not hold these against them. UNVOTE: chesskid3
Right now, we have one kind of post from NotMaf-joke posts. What I'm getting from him is a guy saying "HI IM HERE IM POSTING" but not providing content in order to look town.
However, I'm not voting him YET. This is because I would like to see a few posts from Chesskid's replacement before I decide which of them to vote for.
Also, I like Miltank.
But mostly the first thing.

VOTE: Not_Mafia has not helped, has not responded to any scumreads, or done anything to advance the town game.
Because of this, I'm putting him at L-1 right now.

I don't know. If schism continues the chesskid, then I feel that we should still lynch NotMaf. He's pretty much either scum or a good PL.

I'm really sorry, but your first post with content rubs me the wrong way and makes me feel like you should be tomorrow's lynch if NotMaf flips town.
First of all, what have I done to hurt the game? Mathdino, I see the backpedaling in 81 and that's because I actually went back and read the posts again, and I saw stuff that I hadn't seen before. I realized I was overreacting too much. Anyway, it was an OMGUS vote.
Schism, I really think "Hes mafia acting like hes town." is crazy and makes me feel iffy about you.
EVERY MAFIA ACTS LIKE THEY'RE TOWN.
Third, you say that NotMaf is definitely not scum because this is his playstyle where he provides not game content whatsoever. I have one answer for that.
[snip]
When he's at L-3 and L-2, he posts these. No game content, just random "Bah" posts. That does NOT rub off on me as town behavior. That actually looks slightly akin to what a confirmed scum treestump does.
Jay/Elsa may not necessarily be town, but they are not wrong for adding fluff to their posts. Most of their posts still provide game content. On the other hand NotMaf doesn't have a serious posts, and really, chesskid doesn't either.
Also, he's at L-1, so "joining his wagon" means hammering.
This was an absolutely disgusting post. Schism, if you're going to PLEASE post either the same reads list but with good reasoning, or a different reads list still with good reasoning, I'd love to hear it. But right now, if NotMaf flips scum, you're my choice for a day 2 lynch.

Jay's vote on me is an OMGUS vote meant to be a joke. Elsa forced Jay to make the vote. It's funny. Why should she be off me? It's not like there are any good wagons except NotMafia, although I could see building a case for you in the future.
It's not hypocrisy on his part (we're talking to Jay, not Elsa.) Jay has posts with content, reasoning, and logic. Sure, some of the posts dominated by Elsa are a little jokey, but he mixes serious and stupid to create a combination that is better than each. I personally think it's very different from NotMaf's playstyle, where he just jokes around and posts random posts with not much or not game content.

What we got to talk about is the fact that you want to delay this hammer. Because of the mark of death, as mathdino said, notmafia's flip will help us sort people. You're looking increasingly scummy. Is it because you don't want to bus your scum partner?

All of TGP's substantial posts. Just putting this here for now.

[Mathdino]

I'm here. Stick around, talk to me.

You spent the end of D1 assuming that I was gonna get marked by default. Given TGP's townflip, what were your reads going to be in that scenario?

You also still haven't given reads. It's safe to assume that without CC, NM was actually marked. Now what are your reads?

[Mathdino]

Bad. Your lynch order is almost mine in reverse.

Mine is roughly:
Schism > NSG > Shawn > Jay > Gamma

If you flip town that switches to:
Jay > Shawn > NSG > Gamma

...which now that I think about it is your lynch order. Shit.

[Mathdino]

Gamma and Jay, I see you both online lol

@Gamma:

We just need you to confirm that you're not marked.

[Mathdino]

VOTE: Shawn

explain this

[Mathdino]

I await NSG's and NM's analysis before my next effortpost.

[Mathdino]

quick thought from rereading the game: i think schism is probably town. chesskid's replace out seems more town-motivated than scum motivated. like, if he were scum he probably wouldn't feel a huge motivation to read the thread and make really good contributions, he probably could've gotten by on just joking around like people had been doing or at least talking without really reading the thread too closely. the seeming obligation that he felt to make good contributions makes me feel good about schism being town.

He was being strongly scumread at the time of replace-out. He could also have felt obligated to his scumteam to make an effort to participate in the game instead of fall to a lynch he couldn't defend against.

@Not_Mafia:

Wtf? What did you gain from this?

[Mathdino]

Can I point out that Schism all day has insisted that there must be a counterclaim to NM, and has resisted the idea that NM was actually marked (until we finally got him to give us reads under that scenario)?

[Mathdino]

i sincerely doubt that nobody was marked. i'm pretty sure all that accomplishes for scum is to give town an extra mislynch. unless it was unintentional (ie scum missed submitting an action), that's not the case. i think it's more likely that if nm is lying, whoever was actually marked stayed quiet to see how things would play out, and to try to figure out of nm was town pulling a gambit.

ding ding ding

Help me figure this game out please.

[Mathdino]

try again guys

[Mathdino]

I was marked.

I've never fakeclaimed a PR as town; I'm telling the truth. That was all a reaction test.

Discuss the results of the test.

[Mathdino]

Keep in mind that both mafia know that I was marked and that NM was lying. The town does not. So the test is better for townhunting than scumhunting.

[Mathdino]

am i invisible

is no one reading these posts

am i dead already O_O

[Mathdino]

Hm, Dino, do you think your test has gotten something to read Schism? post 367 seems to indicate this to me.

You tell me what you think. I'm going into Innocent Child mode for now.

Peace.

[Mathdino]

by the way, math, if you're lying again i'm deathtunneling you tomorrow. you have one post to retract if you're gambiting.

Idk if you've meta'd me already but I've never done something that insane as town (or scum, but I have like no scum meta).

I have, however, fake "believed" someone claiming my role to draw associations. Hard Boiled Mafia, Ms Marangal claimed tracker/vig.

It doesn't help me as scum to suicide like this. You're better off believing me for the day.

tl;dr not a gambit, but my first post today WAS a gambit

[Mathdino]

I've thus far seen 0 comments on Not_Mafia's alignment.

Just going to decree that literally no matter who we lynch today, you guys are lynching Not_Mafia tomorrow. He lolhammered a townie that he claimed to townread (and defended), and then claimed the only named role in the game.

Fuck "too scummy to be scum". If he's town, he's the reason we lost and I'm WOTCing him from future games because it makes a 9p like this straight up unfun.

[Mathdino]

NM is also terrible in LyLo so not someone you want around

[Mathdino]

What makes you guys think both members chose me?

[Mathdino]

@Schism:

I'm ISOing you, you literally don't have any reasons for why Shawn is mafia. If you don't think you can convince me it's because you've done nothing so far in order to.
I also don't know why you think you can convince me to lynch Jay over Shawn, lol.

@Not_Mafia:

:
1. Exactly when did you decide you were gonna do the gambit?
2. Have you ever done this as town before?
3. Have you ever fakeclaimed as scum in an open setup before?
4. What did you learn from the gambit?

UNVOTE:
to let the game run its course

[Mathdino]

VOTE: Not_Mafia

let's vote split even more

[Mathdino]

you must think you're funny

[Mathdino]

Schism/Jay feels like bussing.

[Mathdino]

I'm saying this feels like Schism throwing you under the bus for towncred. Or if he gets lynched it makes you look like town.

[Mathdino]

So how exactly do both of you magically know Not_Mafia is town?

I would comment more but I'm confirmed and I'm certainly not making this decision unilaterally so... let's hope the others get back here soon.

[Mathdino]

dude if you're only gonna post useless stuff then you might as well not post and get replaced out

otherwise please actually do something

[Mathdino]

This game:

1 pro who replaced out
2 obv alts on low activity
3 jokesters whose isos are half fluff
4 players with under 3 posts/day on average
5 different vote targets with no one switching
6 townies with completely different playstyles
7 alive with no clear direction/communication

But on the bright side...
8 players who aren't Not_Mafia?

We probably lost this game from the start. That time of year I guess.

[Mathdino]

I'm the dying IC

I have reads, but my job isn't to provide reads at every opportunity

You literally said you have no scumreads

And so you spend more time trolling and giving me shit than following your own advice

[Mathdino]

By process of elimination? Help me understand because Gamma is a major townread right now

Also why did you hammer someone you were explicitly town reading?

[Mathdino]

Schism and Shawn are both alts, they both required activation iirc.

[Mathdino]

Shamelessly tunneled/pushed TGP to everyone while townreading NM, then jumped over to the NM wagon when he felt he caught NM in a lie. Didn't switch back. Was completely site-inactive during the lynch and entire nightphase.

I mean I remember them both posting in the alt activation thread.

[Mathdino]

can't post, ty

There you go. Plus he seems to have some basic understanding of Not_Mafia's meta so...

The townread on Gamma basically comes from not really seeing the scum motivation behind his actions. Openly trying to redirect everyone to TGP didn't feel like a scum agenda either. Sell me on why he's not town?

[Mathdino]

Cant post

whatever you say

Gamma did that early/mid day 1 when there wasn't a clear town direction. My theory on you was that you thought Not_Mafia was for sure gonna be the lynch (and Jay or NSG was gonna hammer) and you distanced yourself from that wagon for towncred.

[Mathdino]

So keep in mind the NM-mark-reaction-test basically involves town genuinely scumhunting as per usual, and scum having to make up fake reads that they know won't necessarily translate into the lynch. This also potentially means scum has the opportunity to be lazy during the test, because they know that I'll eventually come out and say I was really the marked one.

The biggest case for NSG town was the tons of rambling at the start of the day over who the hell would mark NM. If that was all acted out, color me impressed and it deserves the win.

The reactions of the rest:

Jay

: "Scum would not lie about being marked this early". Lowkey argues that I'm the only one that would realistically mark Not_Mafia. When NM fesses up, he seems to assume no one was marked. Only after I admit does he lock a vote.

Gamma

: Suspects Schism on entrance, hypothesises why NM was marked. Then goes after Schism anyway after truth comes out.

I think you think he town based on mafia knowing he's lying, but I'm personally thinking it would mean he's wanting NM discredited since he knows it's not true. His plan would be real mark claims -> NM is discredited -> NM is lynched. So NM would be town and Schism would be scum.

Suggests to NM "Wouldn't mafia know it was a lie and the truth was coming?"

Shawn

: Opens against NSG and secondarily Schism. Doesn't comment on the mark.

Schism

: Demands a CC, is unwilling to vote without one. Lines up Jay if no CC. Then 330 and 337 are a bunch of analyses over the different possible scenarios. At no point does he suggest that I'm actually marked. Then under the no-one's-marked scenario, produces 374.

Anyone (read: NSG and NM) wanna help me unpack these?

[Mathdino]

In Regards to Dino: wtf, you never claimed marked until #377 and i didnt expect you to lie/reactiontest throughout the day. 374 also mentions that Mafia did us a favor by marking the troll. I still dont expect a No-Mark, despite NSG saying it could work.

Guys that post was information instead of analysis. I'm not actively trying to push Schism from my IC position xD

My reads are privately evolving. Carry on.

[Mathdino]

For the record, Shawn's probably gonna get replaced and we're probably gonna end up townreading the replacement's inevitable effortpost. Time will tell but that's usually the kind of thing that happens.

[Mathdino]

i'm not sure if no-marking would be any sort of benefit to scum in this setup, and i highly doubt that scum would ever do it.

Lol I do setup math in my sleep sometimes.

It would be extremely viable to no-mark in LyLo. One scum claims marked, lynches town.

This basically means that once it's LyLo, you shouldn't treat claiming marked as town confirmation. Ignore the mark.

[Mathdino]

Grade school CS, and math during the summer/winter/weekends.

It'd be super fun to be a history teacher at some point though

[Mathdino]

@Mod

: Request replacement for Shawn Spencer and 3 day deadline extension to account for Christmas and replacement.

[Mathdino]

literally everyone would mark me, i was obvtown

i don't think anyone is seriously using the mark as an argument for their scumreads

[Mathdino]

tfw both gamma and shawn's catchups were relatively worthless

[Mathdino]

VOTE: Shawn Spencer

Replace out if you can't answer a question within 3 fucking days dude.

[Mathdino]

VOTE: Gamma

[Mathdino]

finish your reread holy shit dude

[Mathdino]

#516 - #519 are my favorite posts made so far in this game, by the way.

they're objectively the best posts made in the game

i actually made the meme before you made 516

[Mathdino]

i'm already the doublevoter, remember? nice scumclaim.

was just gonna say this and you ninja'd me, mfw you were online watching all this

[Mathdino]

[Mathdino]

as you can see paradox's brain is clearly a tiny fraction of the size of shawn spencer's third-eye-genius

[Mathdino]

[Mathdino]

for what it's worth i still think schism/jay is a viable scumteam

[Mathdino]

VOTE: Gamma

VOTE: Gamma

[Mathdino]

{mathdino}
{jay}
{not_mafia}
{nsg, schism}
{gamma}

to be clear you should be providing actual reasons

i'll give you 2 days to actually contribute to the thread but otherwise i'm definitely lynching you

UNVOTE:

[Mathdino]

read the post i just quoted

then wonder who i'm worried about hammering

[Mathdino]

If you free your dog and he kills someone

Is the dog really at fault

[Mathdino]

fml

i have no reads

good luck bitches

[Mathdino]

one thing that i saw that i never shared

was that schism, jay, and shawn were all unusually site-active during the night while not making other posts

so idk there's probably scum in there

[Mathdino]

what a meme this entire game was

[Mathdino]

oh yeah and remember not to totally trust marked claims in lylo

you probably shouldn't lynch them since there'll be another scum but dont treat their word as god

not like you guys needed my word

[Mathdino]

If we lost then Schism would have no reason to play it out any longer, North. He'd probably already have said he won. Or NotMaf at least.

you don't understand this site tbh

[Mathdino]

You live more often because you're a LyLo liability.

People know you do what you do as both alignments, so they're scared to lynch you.

As your towngame improves, you'll notice your survival rate go down and your scumgame suffer a massive hit, as people start to expect good townish content from you.

[Mathdino]

See this thread in Mafia Discussion.

Points to whoever else suggested that N_M and chesskid were both scum.

I'm flabbergasted that literally no one thought to lynch the people that the confirmed townie wanted to lynch.

You also lynched Shawn without my vote while I wasn't even online, so that was cool

[Mathdino]

Honestly, it probably is Shawn and Gamma's fault more than it is yours. If you did ANYTHING, it was making yourself incredibly obvious town. Voting outside of that crossvote was a massive forum mafia no-no but now you know.

Shawn's activity level was unacceptable and is lowkey blacklist worthy. We couldn't do anything BUT lynch him.

Gamma was just a non-presence in the game. I thought he was the most obvtown, even more than NSG, but whatever. I voted him when I was in IC mode to pressure him and see how the day would progress.

Not_Mafia should've been policy lynched. I can't blame him for his actions as

they all benefited scum

. But I can blame him for the fact that his meta is so shaky that he was indistinguishable from his towngame.

[Mathdino]

If you knew that Not_Mafia was gonna hammer, you shouldn't have voted Shawn. I think he's completely siteflaked at this point. We could've had him replaced, and if you asked me at the time, I'd have said to put the brakes and lynch Not_Mafia as Schism promised me.

When Schism never even brought that up again D2 or D3, that should've confirmed him as scum.

PEdit: Gave up. Not sure what to say. If a town is willing to speedlynch a lurker without the help of their IC, clearly the gamestate has gone down the drain.

[Mathdino]

This. Living is not a good quality for town players.

Its not hard to figure out why Math and NSG were Marked.

Dino D2 was shit

Bro I play a good IC game when the town is actually present and cohesive.

I suspected you through the entirety of the day. You were my endgame lynch. I wanted to fan the wagons without actually getting anyone lynched (hoping that town would just autolynch any quickhammers) so we'd have stuff to analyse later. I play IC as a long con.

I did not expect that lynch to happen without me. I thought it would just be agreed that I would have some kind of hand in deciding when the day was over.

[Mathdino]

Tbh the other reason I chose to explicitly not give reads at the end is I was afraid of seriously affecting the NK through WIFOM shenanigans.

[Mathdino]

Like the last thing I said was telling everyone that there's probably scum in {Schism, Jay, Shawn} based on activity. No one reacted or cared. I'm really not sure given the playerlist that my thoughts would've massively mattered.

I didn't help you because your whole case against him was OMGUS. It wasn't any good. Him being scum had nothing to do with him going after you, and honestly I'm guessing town-Schism would've done the same thing. Was all NAI.

Point is, I would've helped had you not speedlynched. My IC game is as follows:

1. Pretend not to be the IC (if possible)
2. Lurk, ask questions, fan the flames and see what town does.
3. Barrel back into the thread with solid/supported reads on everyone and strongarm everyone into doing what I want.

You lynched him while I was in the middle of step 2. See my Stack The Deck game for how I played IC before.

[Mathdino]

I mean the common consensus seems to be that N_M is more anti-town when he's town, and as scum, he's actually helpful.

This game obviously supports the "everything N_M does is unreadable and anti-town" side, so universally policy lynching him seems to be the right call going forward.

[Mathdino]

@N_M: Thought you'd get policy lynched D2.

I wanted to see reactions to the marked thing. That was an opportunity we wouldn't get again. I was beginning to second guess NSG and the N_M mark reaction basically confirmed her and Jay as town to me.

I don't mean IC like Newbie Game IC, I mean IC as in mod-confirmed-town. I play a very specific way as mod-confirmed town assuming that town will be cohesive enough to play along to some extent. I guarantee you that had Shawn been replaced or actually came and started saying things (that weren't massively scummy) I would've turned on Schism. You don't get to blame me for convincing you to think a certain way while I was putting out feelers for certain theories xD

[Mathdino]

I mean yeah, it did. Again, I didn't expect a lynch. I was hoping the Gamma/Shawn-pressure would bring them back into the game. It completely didn't.

Like, obviously there's a possibility I could've singlehandedly won this by being like HEY GUYS OKAY SO HERES THE DEAL SCHISM AND NOT_MAFIA ARE THE SCUM as soon as possible. But I don't play that way, because if I'm wrong, then my tunneling is what hurts town, and it gives everyone an out to just say "Oh well I'm just gonna follow what Mathdino says". There's no motivations you can glean from that from anyone else.

My progress D2 was realising Jay and NSG were town. From that point I was trying to sort {Schism, Gamma, Shawn} and eventually by extension/association N_M. That progress was significantly cut short by the fact that Shawn and Gamma couldn't even show up to their own lynches.

[Mathdino]

@Mod:

Can into release dead/scum PTs?

[Mathdino]

I'm more interested in your strategy and thoughts.

Schism was definitely the MVP outside of trying to quickhammer while the original voter was still online. I think you should've waited on that since NSG was heading in the Lynch Gamma direction anyway.

But you did fantastic muddling associations and getting town off the scumteam's back end of D1.

[Mathdino]

Nightstart would benefit scum far more. It's basically mountainous to some extent with named townies (which can be cc'd).

Your reaction to NM was over the top enough for me to immediately figure that shit out. I started second guessing myself when everyone townread it for some reason.

[Mathdino]

Paradox didn't deserve to get lynched. I do take responsibility for that. He got lynched for being uncharismatic more than for actually seeming to have scum motivation.

[Mathdino]

Shawn's inactivity didn't have anything to do with holidays. Hes been site inactive since his last post here. This game was more doomed by the playerlist than the holidays.

[Mathdino]

Paradox didn't deserve to get lynched. I do take responsibility for that. He got lynched for being uncharismatic more than for actually seeming to have scum motivation.

Jay should take responsibility, she's the one that refused to hammer not maf

i was thinking this. Longer days hurt town. That was a damn good policy lynch and dragging the game out in my experience actively makes it worse, especially on D1.

[Mathdino]

Jay had we not done the reaction test at all, I'd have hung you. My D2 townread of you came from that. Reaction test was useful info.

Not hanging Not_Mafia before hanging Paradox and ending D2 too early were our mistakes

[Mathdino]

remember to stick around for when the mod opens the dead thread to witness me bitching about the game

and shawn never showing up ofc

[Mathdino]

best replace out 2k18

Damn. This replace-out was so scummy in hindsight. I just ethically didn't want to analyse it too hard so I put your inactivity back at null.

[Mathdino]

Haha. I have no reason to blacklist you, don't worry. A lot of factors about your play are really just because you're new. Can't improve if you can't play! I think I'd only blacklist people for excessive spam or constant flaking.

Feel free to sign up! The Open queue is super newbie-friendly.

[Mathdino]

lol most SEs are bad, it's pretty hilarious

[Mathdino]

Honestly? The one newbie I had was enough for me. Too simple, and now with 4 completed games under my name, I'd have to be an SE as well.

Elsa Jay now goes for extravagant and stupid games. And one Normal/Open at a time along with those. So maybe one time in the future I may SE or even IC a newbie, but I probably should not be trusted to ever teach the future generation my less then optimal strategies.

there's a new setup, actually. and you're still considered a newbie until you've finished 3 newbie games specifically i'm fairly certain, so you could still join as a newbie.

I'm still a newbie?

Fantastic, time to go lynch some newbs.