Micro 765 - Chill Mafia (Winner Winner Chicken Dinner!)

[Mathdino]

You guys are hilarious if you think setup spec is alignment indicative. That's practically my calling card and is why I replaced into this.

My reads list:

Sleepless Assassin

: Lying would be suicidal in a micro. Obv town.

Wh4t

: I love the nuance in these posts, feels very much like town waffling. Doesn't seem like it has some purpose behind it.

sheepsaysmeep

: I mean no shit since this is my slot, but he was my 3rd strongest townread before I replaced in. Scum does not often unironically rolefish and calling people on that shit is a newbie tactic. Lynching people for rolefishing is my #1 reason for mislynching town. See every game I've played with early 2014 wgeurts.
Note: That said, he's also kinda bad at setup spec given that he thinks there's a chance the neighborizer is scum. I didn't say his material was GOOD.

Hongzi

: Null-town. This ISO is some good analysis, and doesn't read like scum motivation.

thenewearth: Gut says town but logic says that this is scum trying to get towncred like what monkey is saying. Need more data.

humaneatingmonkey: Null only because I'm being pulled in 2 directions. I like his nuance when it comes to my slot (not jumping to a townread or scumread, just commenting well on the wagon) but I don't like the "There's scum on my wagon but I'm townreading everyone". This is a predicament that more often happens to scum who knows everyone else is town. A couple other posts read a bit town though? Not sure.

GinghamDog: Null-scum. His line of questioning rubs me the wrong way on tone. This reads extremely similarly to a scum I played with (in I think Open 581). I'm happy to elaborate but I think my read on him will solidify one way or the other before I get to that anyway.

CultofAthena

: Not much substance behind the posts, comments without substantial opinions.
___________________________________________

Not_Mafia

: I got a lot of townreads. That means this slot has a pretty good chance of being scum! Not sure if any of you have played with him before but I would be 100% down for a PoE policy lynch on him for the following reasons:

1. I don't believe he's readable unless there's a lot of pressure on him.
2. I've done a lot of research on him; he lolhammers town as town and is generally unhelpful. Slightly less unhelpful as scum.
3. He, as scum, hides behind his "too scummy to be scum" meta and acts as anti-town as he wants... because he acts anti-town by default.

With him in the game, I highly recommend not putting anyone at L-1 unless you're ready for the hammer.

In the interest of actually voting people I think are scum based on their play, though:
VOTE: CultofAthena

[Mathdino]

CultofAthena: Not much substance behind the posts, comments without substantial opinions.

Experience tells me that this seems to be my "style" of posting, or at the very least it's how others perceive my style. If anyone's interested then Open 702 recently finished, which should give you a good idea of my playstyle and what I look like as town.

Why did you bother putting yourself on your readslist?

That's fair. You're clearly aware of your meta though so I'm not sure trying to meta you off of tone would be super helpful. It's more a motivation thing; I haven't really seen a ton of town motivation from you yet. I could tentatively be down with a Gingham wagon though.

I put my slot on the reads list because I wanted to share the full preliminary reads I was having in the time between seeing the replacement request and getting my role PM. Didn't super want to replace into a scum slot and sheep was my 3rd biggest townread upon initial read.

Luckily I was right. I've to this day never seen a scum actually deliberately rolefish in the open day thread. Scum in this day and age are aware that it's a "scumtell".

[Mathdino]

Nope. Those are roughly the thoughts I was having as a spectator before I got my PM, but I did write that with the knowledge that I'm town.

I think if I thought sheep was acting significantly scummier I'd have either:
A. not replaced in in the first place
B. just been like "holy shit my predecessor was really scumming it up in here" and not included him on the list.

Including a paragraph on sheep kind of serves as an "In addition to my role PM being town, I think sheep objectively acted in a townish way and I think you should think that too". You can take or leave the argument, and I obviously don't plan on analysing MY OWN play, just sheep's.

PEdit: Hey, have we played together before? Must've been a while.

[Mathdino]

Nope. Those are roughly the thoughts I was having as a spectator before I got my PM, but I did write that with the knowledge that I'm town.

Roughly? What changed? For example, did you have your NM policy lynch idea before replacing in?

Oh hell yes. I can't say more because of ongoing games but I almost didn't replace in because I knew this would be an issue. Feel free to check for yourself.
Nothing else really changed much (I wrote it while doing another reread and a bunch of ISOs). I distinctly found it weird that I was townreading almost everyone who was posting. TNE was an initial strong townread that I talked myself out of because that behaviour is fakable.

What I'm gathering from this is that you're not a fan of playing scum.

1. I haven't been on this site in 2.5 years. Town is easier for me than scum.
2. I have an unusually good win rate as town and specifically have been looking for micros where I could fuck up 2p scumteams.
3. My experience as scum consists of one mini game (which, in fairness, my successor won the day I replaced out).
4. And another ongoing games reason to wanna be town.

How would you characterize your scumgame? That is, how would you say it differs from your towngame?

Oh jeez. Honestly this is a really bad question and I'm not sure what you're hoping to learn about me from it. If I'm aware of my scumgame and towngame, then of course I'm just going to act like my towngame.

From what I can remember from my one scumgame, it's literally just pretending I'm town (which at the time meant getting into arguments with people a lot), never lying except about my alignment (lying is hard), and talking myself out of bussing (none of us 3 got lynched). But since I'm aware of that, that shouldn't mean anything to you. If you want, meta my Hope Plus One game. I was partners with copper and Cane + Able.

Again these lines of questioning don't seem high information and seem designed to get people to suspect me. Asking a player about their own scumgame is particularly bad. I'm happy with my vote here.

Cult, if you suspect me, you should go ahead and say it and place a vote.

[Mathdino]

Far easier said than done. For example, I know that I lurk more as scum than as town but sometimes I still can't stop myself from doing so. There's a lot more to be gained from this question than I think you realize.

Then I guess from my own experience I don't understand that. There are very specific uses for meta that I can appreciate (checking for playstyle, checking quality of a player, finding associative tells/bussing), but people asking players about their own scumgame is a huge reason people say meta is trash. Like I said, if you want to meta me, do the work yourself. If I'm scum, I'm going to answer in whatever way makes me look most town. This doesn't help you.

Designed to get people to suspect you? Wow, you sound more paranoid that I do, and that's saying something. What gives you that impression? There's nothing wrong with asking someone about their own meta. Seeing how their own take on it relates to your take on it is valuable, as well as keeping what they say in mind when examining the game.

Cult, if you suspect me, you should go ahead and say it and place a vote.

Why the defensive reaction?

Misrepping me as paranoid/defencive, lol. I was scumreading you before I started 1v1ing you because you were doing the same thing to other players. You're asking questions that are non-alignment-indicative and are basically posturing. I see no analysis done on your part yet, no actual results from your questioning.

Here's an example. What do you expect me to say to "Why the defensive reaction?"? "Oh whoops sorry you're right that was overdefencive, I take it back". 95% of players will hold their ground to that question, because regardless of alignment, it's a loaded unnecessarily aggressive question.

Some tips on being helpful if you're town:
1. If you want to show your reads and work with the rest of the town, just tell everyone "Hey guys Mathdino's reaction was defencive" and see what they say.
2. If you want to work with me, ask me a legitimate question like "Could you explain what you mean by that?" that allows for a legitimate response.

If you had asked "Could you elaborate" I'd have said that I'm confused on whether you're scumreading me or not, and it sounds like you are, so I'm wondering why you aren't placing a vote and making it known.

I'd like to know your reads. You've yet to explain your Gingham vote. Feel free to respond to the above, but if it's more of the same stuff, I'm not continuing this 1v1, sorry.

[Mathdino]

Sorry for the multipost, but I think you guys should check out the following (fairly short) scum ISO:

VictorDeAngelo from Open 575. For those of you too lazy to read:

Victor uses almost exactly the same kind of unhelpful questions that do more to throw suspicion around than to actually scumhunt. Some examples (all directed at town):

"Hey Math, why so keen to get some early meta off Newbie?"

- asking me why I'm doing something helpful

"Why not let him answer for himself?"

- what answer does he expect

"Why is it important to note the vote is not a test?"

- what does this matter

"Why is important that you wrote your post before 55?"

- asking about something that's not scummy

"So blindmescience, do you think Wgeurtes is scum? Why do you care about him creating a good defence?"

- asking obvious questions

"Why do all players scumreading you need to provide original content?"

- misrepping a townie

To defend himself:

"If someone does something that strikes me as unusual or off then I will question it. It helps get games moving."

- Bullshit, just made him look busy

We lynched him D1 for this shit. There's a huge difference between town inquiry and scum inquiry. A major one being that town seems like they're actually wanting answers that help them sort, and scum just fucks around, questions everything, and waits for suspicion to fly.

From CultOfAthena's ISO:

"Why did all of you choose to join this game?"

- useless

"What about your entrance is only town-motivated?

- terribad question, there's no good answer to this

"So, you were waiting before making your first post? What was the thought process there? What were your initial reads when you thought that it was 10 posts per phase?"

-

what?

This reads like a bad cop interrogation from a sitcom. Wh4t already said he fucked up and was going to give reads. There's nothing suspicious here and nothing helpful that can come from answering this.

So your notes in 60 were taken before receiving your role PM?

- How is an answer here alignment indicative?

Roughly? What changed? For example, did you have your NM policy lynch idea before replacing in?

- literally questions me using the word "roughly"

How would you characterize your scumgame? That is, how would you say it differs from your towngame?

- very bad for reasons given earlier

Why the defensive reaction?

- lolworthy question

tl;dr: Sheep me and get better content from this one. Or lynch them. Either way's good.

[Mathdino]

this hongzi wagon is shit

@Mod

: Request votecount.

[Mathdino]

VOTE: UC Voyager

[Mathdino]

Don't EVER self-vote as town again. The only scenario in which this even borderline appropriate is to avoid a no lynch at deadline.

I was townreading you Hongzi and a couple people also didn't like the wagon. If you don't want to play the game maturely and to wincon, then, well...

Anyway I'm completely at a loss this game so I'm praying for some good inspiration upon D2 reread. I think we should start off the wagon because I doubt both scum were on it. The off-wagoners are a smaller pool too.

Will do more ancillary analysis if mod doesn't lock the thread beforehand.

[Mathdino]

If he's not hammered and was in fact at L-1,
VOTE: Hongzi

I'm obviously speaking to you as if you're town (pretty standard for twilight) but self-voting is entirely vote-worthy.

[Mathdino]

Mathdino is scum

Speaking to him as a player and not as a townie. I don't want self-voters in my games. Pisses me off as both alignments.

If you got other reasons, lay em on me.

[Mathdino]

I'm using my 10th post of the day to say that this is a godawful vote. If he's not hammered he's basically conftown – why would you possibly vote him? Policy lynches are scum garbage.

I have my principles. If self-voting turns into conftowning, then suddenly self-voting is a great idea for everyone.

I'm not even gonna argue I'm doing this for my wincon. I'm doing this as a player. If he's scum that's an added benefit.

If you wanna get into the weeds in terms of exactly why self-voting and self-hammering is scum-motivated, we can. The primary reason is that it cuts discussion preventing town from looking at potential VCA and associatives. I don't actually have a problem as a player with scum self-voting, but it's obviously still lynchworthy.

[Mathdino]

If you wanna get into a talk about me being mafia for previous reasons, like I said, go ahead.

If you seriously think I'm scum for wanting to get rid of shit players (who are also LyLo liabilities), search my posts for "policy" and compile a list of all the players I've tried to PL.

Lynch liars, lynch self-voters, lynch trolls.

[Mathdino]

I'm under the impression that if he wasn't already hammered, then he's at L-1. Cult unvoted, putting him at L-2, and I voted again, putting him at L-1.

I don't have a response to "tell me what's not scummy". Talk about what's scummy, lol.

[Mathdino]

NM, TNE, monkey, and Cult were on the wagon.

Off the wagon were Wh4t (major townread), Sleepless (IC), Gingham/UC (already a scumread).

So my best guess at scumteam is still Gingham/Cult.

[Mathdino]

HNM's reads are obviously shit if Hongzi flips town. Scumreads expressed this game consist of TNE, Hongzi, and me. Bad setup spec makes me think VI town.

[Mathdino]

I think 3 people now have a major townread on Cult. I'm really not seeing it and would like a towncase on them.

I'd also like a case on human being scum instead of noobtown. His actions are super consistent with VI town. I'm not really seeing much scum motivation.

Granted, people who are usually VI town often have a good scumgame because it's hard to tell the difference between them being bad and them being scum. So I guess could be open to a later lynch on them.

[Mathdino]

Obvious frame up for Mathdino. Mathdino is town now in my book.

VOTE: thenewearth

I obviously prefer being townread, but this is shit reasoning (subject to WIFOM, not to mention that Cult would literally have been the ideal kill for scum-me anyway) and I'm not sure I believe that you believe your flip-flop on me. It looks like it's solely based on NKA.

This TNE wagon is shit and I have a great track record for being able to tell when wagons are shit sooo

VOTE: UC Voyager

[Mathdino]

what makes TNE's wagon shit? what makes you able to determine what is and isn't shit with no reasoning?

lol i was about to respond vitriolically but this is actually a reasonable question

Half of me works off gut, half works off logic. I'm not townreading HNM and NM so I have no reason to trust them (I'm actively nullscumreading monkey at this point), I have no reason to believe TNE is a bus target (bussing is usually done for theatrics, these are naked votes), and gut still says TNE leans town until I'm proven otherwise.

Reads list is roughly:
Sleepless Assassin
Wh4t
thenewearth
humaneatingmonkey
UC Voyager/Gingham's slot (sorry bro)

with Not_Mafia removed from the list for unreadability.

PEdit:

humaneatingmonkey, you better have a great reason to be asking that question that has to do with catching scum, because that is not a question that Sleepless should answer.

[Mathdino]

I'll answer the question if Sleepless Assassin or Wh4t asks me to. Don't understand or trust what you're doing, sorry.

Also Not_Mafia is unreadable

by me

so I'm just letting other people decide that shit for me.

[Mathdino]

what the actual fuck

is this guy majorly townslipping or what

[Mathdino]

Sleepless, I don't have any idea what you're trying to say, sorry. Rephrase?

I think we can reliably treat HNM as confirmed town after his "brilliant" idea. I don't see him staging that kind of thing.

Given that we seem to agree Wh4t is town (although I hope he gets here soon), and that we have one mislynch left, we should be able to lynch the set of {UC, TNE, N_M} and win.

It's really hard for me to see UC as town at this point, in large part due to PoE. I'm struggling to see his scumpartner though. UC/TNE interactions do make sense with them as a scumteam. I'll reread at some point through that lens.

[Mathdino]

Yeah my fuckin bad, those slots have literally 0 interactions with the exception of UC asking for a case on TNE, and then asking me to explain why the TNE wagon is shit.

I think we found our scumteam. If not UC/TNE, then it's UC/N_M.

[Mathdino]

someone explain how im scummy with my little to no posts.

also, mathdino was openly willing to hammer after a townie tried to take back a hammer! does dino get to call the shots after that?

POE?!?!? you only lynch POE if it is nightless and one scum is left! this game isn't nightless and there are multiple scum left!

moving on, can you answer my questions i asked you?

You're funny. Your questions have already mostly been answered. I'll humor it though.

1. Your slot was scummy previously, you come across as opportunistic, and your behavior around the TNE wagon is hilariously sketchy.

2. Are you just trying to tear down my reputation? No one is following me yet, I'm under no impression that I'm "calling the shots". I'm just active.

3. I don't even understand this sentence. PoE is Process of Elimination. I believe Sleepless, monkey, Wh4t, and myself are all town. Scum must then be in your slot, TNE, and N_M. Is that invalid logic to you? (I would understand if it's only invalid because you don't believe I'm town; that logic really only works from my perspective)

4. I already answered your question on the TNE wagon.

and lol i have absolutely 0 regrets about that hammer
self-voters are speedlynch territory for me

[Mathdino]

I have barely started to sort people. and he is not making it easy because im trying to sort him, and whatever i do, he comes back with something impossible to read. It is frustrating. i suppose i better try to sort someone else then, shall I.

what xD
how is this my fault

Ask me whatever you want, I'm open as shit about my thought process. I'm pointing out that you tend to ask questions that I've already answered in my previous posts. Of course making me restate myself isn't going to help you sort me.

[Mathdino]

I feel a knee-jerk reaction to lynch this slot however I'm uncertain as I thought I would have been the NK if my vote on you was on the right track. I get that it's all WIFOM.

It could also be WIFOM that Dino has been cleared since COA died as both TNE and I suggested that it could not be TvT. Thus if CoA is dead and flipped town that would give town the urge to lynch dino. If Dino is scum, which I doubt at this point, he is a very good powerwolf player. I feel like HEM has a point about the slot most likely being locktown now.

This would be incredibly devastating for town if both Dino and HEM are scum and have led us to clear them into a townblock with the NK gambit. I need to read into their interactions a little more.

I am suspecting HEM is not derptown playing too scummy to be scum. I think he is scum playing too scummy to be scum based on his reaction to the NK. I will pull up some PBPA shortly.

Dino do you believe you've been framed?

Oh shit, this is some #goodposting.

On the nightkill: I've been trained by MS at this point to just ignore NK intention. Since I'm a self-centred jackass, my first sentiment was actually "shit, scum really wants to completely ruin my scumhunting today, I should reevaluate" since I was planning on going after Cult. I think it's certainly possible that scum was intending to frame me, but N_M and HEM weren't having it so scum dropped that plan.

I think I would say that this NK is probably worst for town-me specifically because it robs me of my chief suspect. That said, it would be a particularly good NK for a scum-me because it robs town of the chief person suspecting me.

ALL THAT SAID, I'm not sure scum was thinking about me as much as you, HEM, or I are, and just wanted to kill an active player that most people townread. Sleepless called Cult conftown. Cult is a pretty good kill for anyone. Which is why NKA is considered horseshit on MS.

You seem to have glossed over HEM (IMO) townslipping with his brilliant "did you get a PM from the mod" "oh fuck we all got the same PM never mind" plan. Plus opening the day with shitty NKA doesn't seem consistent with a scum who made that kill. I can see why you might believe HEM/me are a possible scumteam, but do you think it's possible HEM is scum independently of me? (I don't)


What do you think of the TNE wagon?

PEdit: still no regrets

[Mathdino]

If it's not TNE and UC, it's Sleepless Assassin. It's okay we will probably lynch scum in either UC and TNE so we can pull off the three lynches. I'm backing both horses.

[Mathdino]

I just believe that in general case posts should be shorter, but otherwise, nice, I still think you're town.

I'm not gonna convince you to emotion-read me better in a defence post, but I will to respond to a couple things that are incorrect.

this hongzi wagon is shit

I love how Dino just throws out gut reads like this without the thought that he put into other posts. It would've been nice to see reasons around this. Since there was little support of this in other posts I'm led to believe that if Dino is scum he's trying to get towncred by staying off a mislynch wagon. If he's town that's some confident gut there.

I know you ISO'd me. I was semi-firmly townreading Hongzi in my first post and I did state reasons. My gut isn't great when it comes to players or analysing posts, but I do think I have some pretty good gut when it comes to feeling wagons (it's why I like wagons developing, and why I'm a huge fan of lategame VCA).

The best way I can describe my own game is some weird combination of verbose logic and confident/abrasive gut. If I really think about it, I almost always have some kind of reason for my reads that I might only consciously realise through analysis. Sometimes I make those explanations (reads lists) and sometimes I don't (for when I want to see the game play out more). If you wanna know why I felt the Hongzi wagon was shit at the time lemme know.

If he's not hammered and was in fact at L-1,
VOTE: Hongzi

I'm obviously speaking to you as if you're town (pretty standard for twilight) but self-voting is entirely vote-worthy.

This is a very odd post. 1. He has done a 180 on his stance as town. He did follow up the quick hammer with a series of posts explaining his lynch all lurkers ideology however I believe town would have posted intent and waited before hammering the slot. I cannot see a town reason for quickhammering here. I can see a scum reason though. 2. I find his justification for speaking to hongzi like he's town very awkward. Why would he go to the trouble of justifying to hongzi why he's speaking to him like he's town? Very odd from a town point of view. From a scum point of view this shows that self-awareness that town lack. He's overly concerned that it looks like he already knows Hongzi is town imho.

I didn't talk about this at the time (and I obviously didn't want to continue a discussion about the hammer come D2), but I didn't actually realise I was hammering in this post, and I'm not a fan of the mod error that happened to cause that drama. This was my thought process during the whole thing:

1. oh shit Hongzi just self-hammered what the fuck
2. oh wait someone just said it wasn't actually the hammer, I guess he just L-1'd himself
3. cult unvoted, i don't see why
4. fuck this self-voter, i'm putting him back at L-1 (hence "If he's not hammered and was in fact at L-1")
5. *rereads*
6. oh shit was he actually hammered? well not my fault, but he definitely deserved it, i stand by my (now only symbolic) vote and will double down on this shit
7. wow okay so the mod isn't gonna count his hammer due to mod error, but will count mine, wow, fine
8. #noregrets over lynching a self-voter, #someregrets over ending the day too soon

So I'm in kind of a weird limbo between being kinda upset over what happened and being completely okay. I have 0 qualms over voting/lynching a self-voter but had I known my vote would actually be counted as the hammer I would've held off. I just thought I was replacing a (very scummy) CultofAthena unvote.

I realised what happened after I made the post. I wanted to make it clear I was talking to him as if he were town because obviously I voted him because I thought that shit was scummy and PL-worthy and HOPED he was scum, but I always talk to people in twilight as if they're town because there's no point in talking to anyone as if they're scum. If he was scum, I'd have had no issues with his play, but I wanted to give player-to-player advice if he ended up flipping town.

If all that is confusing, I get it, but I figured people would be more confused if I didn't put the disclaimer at all. Being all like "Wait why are you talking to him like he's town after you just voted him?" The things I say are with the motivation of people understanding me. And yeah, by nature I'm pretty self-aware of people's perceiving me.

It sounds like a lot of your issues are in the vein of tonereading and emotionreading. Specifically, I think my playstyle in general would ping you similarly. I welcome you to look through my meta. But with these few issues in particular I disagree that there could be much scum benefit from playing the way I did. Specifically, if I were trying to get credit for not lynching Hongzi and defending against that mislynch, the flipflop and "hammer" doesn't benefit me.

Sorry for post length. Lemme know if you have any questions or if you want me to respond to anything else.

[Mathdino]

As I said, my proposed scumteam is UC Voyager and thenewearth. I'm entirely willing to compromise and lynch TNE if you believe she's scum as well. It worries me that you think we're the same alignments, but if TNE flips town, my scumteam is definitely UC/N_M, and I'm guessing you'd agree with me on that in that scenario.

o sleepless where art thou

[Mathdino]

are we destined to continually accidentally hammer people this game

[Mathdino]

Alright well if anyone wants to make good usage of tonight here are a couple agenda items:

If TNE flips scum:
- Test N_M for partner. Need to know if N_M has a history of bussing.
- Reread Gingham/UC slot, see if bussing is realistic here.
- I really doubt HEM is bussing but if you're gonna come at me with a HEM scumread tomorrow you better be able to argue it

If TNE flips town:
- Literally everyone but the PR is on the wagon (I count myself on the wagon in spirit since I was willing to hammer with time) so do some VCA on the last 2 mislynches
- We'll be in LyLo so we should each have scumteam proposals before progressing on the lynch tomorrow
- I think we'll have to take another look at Wh4t; I'm gonna start seeing these cases as super disingenuous if TNE flips town. Means he started out (44) from a completely accurate place (townreading townies) and slowly moved to reads that were entirely wrong and seem to be scumreading tons of people.

[Mathdino]

Just in case we both die, figured I'd respond to this, because I think the way you're framing my logic is disingenuous, and I admit that's in part due to me not explaining things. If we're both here tomorrow and you don't think I've sufficiently explained shit, you should really just ask.

NM, TNE, monkey, and Cult were on the wagon.

Off the wagon were Wh4t (major townread), Sleepless (IC), Gingham/UC (already a scumread).

So my best guess at scumteam is still Gingham/Cult.

The logic in this post is sub-par. I don't see any consistent analysis of those both on and off the wagon. I don't see the logical path to his conclusion.

I read a VCA article (I think mastina's) that suggested that scum nowadays often really don't want to be on town wagons, and it's not really that common to have them all on a town's mislynch. So I decided that the wagon didn't seem SUPER scum-pushed (this was gut) and that there was probably 1 scum on the wagon, 1 scum off the wagon. I PoE'd the scum-off-the-wagon to be Gingham/UC (who was already a scumread) and I figured Cult was the partner.

The logic isn't subpar, it's just unstated. It was twilight and I figured mod would lock the thread anytime, so I didn't want to dump a ton of time (you're at least right that I was scrambling). Then I ran out of posts so I didn't clarify further (also it's frowned upon to multipost in geriatric set).

This starts off townie by him including himself in the pool of players the NK implicated but then it gets pretty weird when he says HEM doesn't believe his own read change on him? To me that's very stretchy shading for no apparent reason. Almost as if to further polarise himself as town in view of HEM scum.

Here's that random gut read thrown out again about a shit wagon except this time it's supposed to ride on the credit of his last gut read being right. Both instances of the gut read feel like Dino knows players alignments. I'm inclined to believe TNE is scum from his lack/avoidance of pushing or analyising that slot in comparison to other slots. I also remember seeing her in a null position in two of his readslists which makes the lack of pushes even more suspect. His pushes have been on COA who was obv. town to me and now on HEM but more hedgy. His read on HEM confuses me because while he's admitted he's nullscum reading HEM he's still aligned HEM as town to PoE UCV.

Okay I definitely explained this part, I'm attributing this to you not really paying attention. Here's my progression:

1. I spent D1 hovering around a nullscumread on HEM, wasn't really paying attention to him.
2. I noticed that he switched from trying to vote me end of D1 to locking me as town on D2. He explained why, but I had trouble believing that he believed it. TO BE CLEAR, that literally means I was calling him scum. I figured he decided overnight that pushing me was a bad idea and made up a shitty reason to townread me based on his own NK.
3. I waded further into a scumread on HEM when he was lowkey rolefishing with the asking for PMs business.
4. Then I realised that HEM thought that the mod only sent the daystart PM to town, and was trying to exploit the game by asking who got a PM from the mod. This was a load of horseshit and basically meant that either
A. HEM made a lowkey VI-level hilarious mistake in thinking he could break the game based off mod communication
B. HEM made up the entire ploy to gain tons of towncred.
5. I didn't and still don't believe HEM was capable of making that kind of gambit so I've been hardtownreading him since he did that. You'll notice from my ISO me asking others if HEM just made a massive townslip. No one responded (lol) ( ).
6. Now that I'd locked HEM as town, and Sleepless as town, PoE got a lot easier. I'm guessing now that UC also didn't see townslip, which reinforces the idea that you guys need to PAY MORE ATTENTION PLS

That is all. Happy nighttime scumhunting.

If we're both alive tomorrow, you really need to start asking me first if you don't understand why I'm saying something. There's a reason for everything, but sometimes I don't want to share (don't want to clutter up the thread), feel like sharing (doing something else), or am sharing but you're seemingly not getting it.

[Mathdino]

fuck literally everyone except the confirmed townie was okay with the TNE lynch

there is no way in hell that lynch was on scum

we're fucked tomorrow

not gonna restate reads because that helps scum with the NK

[Mathdino]

You can't undo the lynch, UC just hammered her with a wagon of N_M, you, Wh4t, and UC. I'm not sure at this point if more reads from anyone but TNE would help us. Once the lynch is decided, it just helps scum's NK.

And yeah I realise what happened. It's why I switched to hardtownreading you.

If mod actually lets us take back this lynch, I'm no longer okay with it. Scum must be on the wagon in order for everyone to be on board with this. I'd rather lynch UC.

[Mathdino]

I'm going after Dino tomorrow. Note Dino's scrambling again when someone is lynched? It's funny how whenever someone scum reads him he discredits that player. First CoA, the HEM now me. Open your eyes people. I'll have something more solid tomorrow.

Hahahaha

1. I love how scrambling before a lynch is now my scum tell when you don't even have a flip on me. You've literally just shown it's this thing I do.

2. I was scumreading Cult literally before my entrance. I only started scumreading HEM when he tried to tell everyone I was confirmed town. I never even said you were my biggest suspect.

But I guess at this point I've figured you're either hilariously bad at reading comprehension or you're scum.

Spend the night rereading.

Also it's antitown to discuss what your primary reads are in the morning but whatever dude

[Mathdino]

Okay so a few thoughts.

1. Who the fuck nominated UC Voyager as their biggest townread? I voted humaneatingmonkey originally, and there were 6 players alive to vote. So that means for the tie to happen, 2 players voted for UC, 2 players voted for Sleepless, 1 player voted for humaneatingmonkey, and 1 player voted for me/Not_Mafia/Wh4t?
We should be claiming votes now. I think scum is trying to fuck up who gets the "advantage".

2. My townbloc is basically destroyed, which is what I think scum's intent was; they knew I would never let HEM get lynched. At the same time, if they wanted to go the route of "screw over Mathdino" like they did with Cult, Wh4t was technically the correct kill for that. The fact that he's still alive is worrying me and takes him off my townbloc. This is mixed in with a bit of salt for misrepping me in that final push tbh.

3. One person bussed thenewearth. This is theoretically a good thing because we don't have to suspect the "token person avoiding the wagon". If you really want to, you could count me as that guy, but I explicitly said thenewearth was my 2nd lynch choice behind UC Voyager, who I at the time thought was partners with her anyway.

4. I honestly have no idea where to go here. Probability says we're probably gonna have to take this to LyLo; no particular interactions are JUMPING OUT at me. Since Sleepless is NK-immune, that might actually be a good thing. Scum has to kill one of the suspects.

I'm not really sure I want Not_Mafia in my LyLo. I completely failed to do the homework of "Check if Not_Mafia has a bussing history" but I'll compile that meta somewhere when I get the chance.

Being mostly at a loss here, I think Not_Mafia is probably our best lynch.

But we need to claim votes last night first

.

[Mathdino]

@Mod:

1. If someone wins the nightvote and is killed, does the runner-up then get the advantage?

2. Are people allowed to vote for themselves?

That last part is gonna be pretty crucial. Scum's probably been either voting for themselves or voting for the lowest-utility person to get the advantage.

Also I think we've effectively established Sleepless as conftown. He's also playing like he's town on top of being practically conftown. If you wanna claim power role, be my guest.

[Mathdino]

So we need to find out who won the advantage N1. I voted Wh4t N1.

@Mod: Couple questions.

1. If there's a tie between a player who gets killed and a player who doesn't, will a revote with the killed player still occur?
2. If there's a tie between a player who won previously, and a player who hasn't, will a revote with both players still occur?
3. If there's a tie between a player who gets killed, a player who won previously, and a player who hasn't, will a revote happen, and with who?

[Mathdino]

VOTE: UC Voyager

THAT'S L-1 BITCHES, IF ANYONE LOLHAMMERS THIS GUY I WILL PERSONALLY POWERLYNCH YOU

Anyway. UC. What's your game today? Ignore the nightvote. You got TNE lynched, so who's her partner?

[Mathdino]

actually honestly voting is tantamount to hammering in this game apparently

inb4 mod comes and posts an incorrect votecount and someone hammers

UNVOTE:

intent to vote: UC Voyager

[Mathdino]

That's a lie. You didn't know you were even hammering. You said so yourself.

[Mathdino]

HEM was hard-defending N_M. He was practically the only one doing so. Having him alive would practically ensure N_M stays alive for at least another day.

VOTE: Wh4t

Doing this for a sec, but not pushing yet.

UCV didn't self-vote. He thought he L-1'd TNE when really he was hammering.

I'm honestly more afraid of the fact that you're alive right now. If mafia really wanted town to get at my throat, you'd be the right kill. Granted, they might've also thought I could try and get you lynched and then get mislynched in LyLo? NKA is a maelstrom tbh.

When exactly did you start WIFOMing? I was under the impression that your case on me was entirely genuine. Did you only start doing that after the hammer?

[Mathdino]

Yeah after hammer. I'm still immensely paranoid you're scum which is intensified by your vote. What's your case on me Dino? OMGUS? Why wouldn't I be alive today with all your shading on me yesterday? Hoping for another obv. town mislynch?

If you are scum I'd prefer you win over UCV and N_M anyway so I've kind of stopped caring.

I literally have no case on you and my scumread on UCV is significantly stronger. I'm wanting to see what'll happen.

I have a case on why N_M is town based on associations so gimme a sec.

[Mathdino]

Hey Not_Mafia, neither I nor Sleepless is gonna hammer UC right now. I'd be voting UC if doing so wouldn't be the hammer.

Can you do me a favour, player to player, and vote Wh4t with me? This is entirely a reaction test/pressure wagon and I know you love those <3

[Mathdino]

N_M if you hammer I promise not to lynch you. I have confirmation that Wh4t is scum. Lynch me tomorrow if I'm wrong. I'm staking my life on this 1v1.

[Mathdino]

LOL

[Mathdino]

UNVOTE: Wh4t

VOTE: Hongzi

[Mathdino]

My confirmation was just that I'm in a neighbourhood with Sleepless and he confirmed to me that he knew Wh4t is town based on the advantage that he got. I wanted to just get the day over with.

If this is actually town, this seriously throws Sleepless's alignment into question.

[Mathdino]

EBWOP: that he knew Wh4t is scum

i should stop posting for now i'm depleting my reserve

[Mathdino]

anyone around? no? k so i won last night, i assume because of N_M's vote
it's a vengekill, interestingly
but useless here because sleepless is probably bulletproof

or maybe sleepless just didn't give a shit and voted me cuz he already got some kind of advantage

VOTE: Sleepless

You lied to me in the neighbourhood, you manipulated me and then didn't say why all night.

You're gonna coast on this 1v1 hoping UC blames me for the lynch.

UC, when you get on, I'll answer any questions, but I know for sure he's mafia. This guy is why I mislynched Wh4t yesterday.

If you're town, screw you, you lost us the game. Said that in the neighbourhood and I'll say it again.

[Mathdino]

You gamethrew when you lied to me and told me to vote Wh4t. I don't care what shit-ass reasons you had on nightvote stuff or whatever. You said you had confirmation and you refused to back down.

Glad you're not denying that I was in the neighbourhood at least.

If you're mafia, you deserve the loss for not realising we can just lynch you in the morning. If you're town, you deserve the loss for lying.

[Mathdino]

UC, I encourage you to take this slow and look at the facts. Come to a decision you're comfortable with.

Sleepless is slowplaying me because he's hoping it'll make him look town if he doesn't vote me.

Ask any questions you want, but don't be rash.

[Mathdino]

UCV, can I ask that if you do ultimately end up choosing to vote me, that you hold on a minute and ask me questions first?

I'd honestly be 100% okay with you hammering because I know Sleepless is scum for sure. But he'd probably have the same request. idk.

I'm just convinced that if you do think I'm scum after your reread, that you're fundamentally misunderstanding me. So I'd like the chance to defend myself.

[Mathdino]

My confirmation was just that I'm in a neighbourhood with Sleepless and he confirmed to me that he knew Wh4t is town [meant "scum" here] based on the advantage that he got. I wanted to just get the day over with.

If this is actually town, this seriously throws Sleepless's alignment into question.

[Mathdino]

I'm done. I made all that up.

UNVOTE: Sleepless

If you're messing with me, UC, you're just gonna continue messing with me.

[Mathdino]

Public Extra Vote: Sleepless

@Mod: Request votecount.

[Mathdino]

Do you have any guesses as to why I might think you're doing this? There are multiple answers.

[Mathdino]

I would rather you come up with the guesses.

Since I'm confirmed town as I could've just hammered anyone I want with my extra vote, this is now you vs Sleepless.

[Mathdino]

Okay. So if you're town, why haven't you hammered yet, knowing that I could just immediately double vote you and win?

[Mathdino]

also. why did you use your second vote and not your first. lol

This confirms that I have 2 votes.

[Mathdino]

Yeah okay this is ridiculous.

@Town:

When the neighbourhood thread is released, you can see all the reasons I thought UCV was scum with TNE. It makes way too much sense. I don't know shit about UCV's meta nor do I really care to (he's a replacement so). But the connections are there.

Furthermore, Sleepless Assassin added TNE to his PT D1. If he's scum, this is either a waste of a neighbourize or a brilliant move to manipulate me.

With regards to why UCV didn't quickhammer, I think he knows Sleepless is loved. Because Sleepless pretty obviously said he was loved. From there, and knowing that I must've won last night's poll, it's not a stretch for him to believe that I'm baiting him.

I wish I could blame it on someone else if this is a loss, but I can't. My only real candidates are Hongzi (self-voting is bad), and UCV for being really weird and lynchable I guess. And I guess the reviewers for this setup for thinking that 2v7 is balanced with
A. a single power role given to scum
B. a nightvote mechanic that can benefit scum if both scum just vote for a scum

I lynched Wh4t because Sleepless breadcrumbed "loved" to him and he breadcrumbed it back accidentally. My logic with Sleepless was that Wh4t would be unlynchable on the last day (loved), so we HAD to lynch him the day before LyLo. I'm fairly sure that he was trying to draw the NK away from me by insisting I'm scum. He hoped N_M or UCV would shoot each other. It either worked or backfired completely.

I don't believe Sleepless-scum would go through this massive act of actually caring about our lynch order and breadcrumbing to Wh4t if it were a huge play for me. If he has, well done. Furthermore, I think he would have a better chance of convincing Not_Mafia that UCV is scum than me. N_M doesn't often change reads on a dime.

VOTE: UC Voyager

Good game, all.

[Mathdino]

I'm an idiot.

Extra vote: UC Voyager

[Mathdino]

Kudos to UCV for not falling into my trap. Your fatal flaw was your absolutely fucking weird behaviour around the TNE wagon. You'll see where I drew my associations in the neighbourhood thread.

Wh4t played DAMN well. He scumread me for things this game that I would basically have done as scum anyway, but then realised his mistake and continually WIFOM'd the hell out of me. I credit him for me staying alive and winning.

N_M, nice reads.

I'm not really sure what got TNE lynched but yeah the scum this game was weakened by less presence and charisma tbh. The only reason I considered TNE-scum was PoE.

Bragging about this in the geriatric criticism thread. wooooooot

And kudos to the mod for running the first geriatric game ever, and for creating a legitimately good/interesting setup as always!

[Mathdino]

You lied to me in the neighbourhood, you manipulated me and then didn't say why all night.

You're gonna coast on this 1v1 hoping UC blames me for the lynch.

UC, when you get on, I'll answer any questions, but I know for sure he's mafia. This guy is why I mislynched Wh4t yesterday.

If you're town, screw you, you lost us the game. Said that in the neighbourhood and I'll say it again.

wow i never actually read this

i suck at lying as town

thanks for pointing out that blind spot

Setup was definitely balanced. If UCV were townier to Sleepless, he'd have gotten an extra vote and hammered me immediately.

[Mathdino]

I was terrified of the fact he could be deathproof or loved or something. I knew they had a PT so they could hae easily planned that out. what gave it way was the fact sleepless didn't vote you back. I was trying to seem like conf townie so sleepless would vote mathdino and i would hammer there without a doubt.

One of the issues i had was the fact i couldn't kill the fucking PRs. one of them wouldn't claim until lylo and the other was night kill immune. I was literally butt fucked. i should have just killed mathdino night two, but i decided otherwise.

For sure. This really speaks to the imbalanced charisma of the town in that they got the PRs in the first place.

The Wh4t lynch was hilarious and entirely town driven. Total miscommunication between everyone involved.

But yeah that makes sense. That exact scenario (Of Sleepless getting paranoid and coming in and hammering me) is why I got paranoid, confirmed myself as town and ended it.

I'm not sure who you should've killed honestly. HEM semi-confirmed himself as town and I spotted it. I think you were fucked by that point. Had you killed me, HEM would've been alive and taken my place as semi-confirmed town. Difference is neighbourizer would've been useless.

The bad kill was N1. Frame-ups are pretty obvious. Had you left Cult alive, I for sure would've made an ass out of myself tunneling her all day. Wh4t was probably the right kill back then.

PEdit: Hah, exactly as I predicted. Read the neighbourhood chat, it's hilarious guys.

[Mathdino]

See the thread for why we were paranoid enough to lynch Wh4t. His loved breadcrumb-not-a-breadcrumb meant we thought we wouldn't be able lynch him in Lylo.

[Mathdino]

Can we see the mafia PT?

[Mathdino]

Ideally the scum would actually win a nightvote at some point

[Mathdino]

Lol I just noticed Sleepless totally lied
What a lying liar

I knew it

[Mathdino]

I figured everyone would know it, but it still makes scum think "what if I'm being dumb and wasting a kill" if they do decide to NK me.

I really enjoyed playing with you by the way, especially after neighborizing you. You played great.

Thanks dude, you too! TNE and I were both definitely good neighbour targets.

[Mathdino]

I PM'd thenewearth about it, so hopefully.