Micro 777: Purgatory

[Chara]

VOTE: RC
hell-voting you is even faster!

[Chara]

haha.
i know you have your reputation, but i've yet to see it in practice. perhaps this could be a learning experience.

if you're scum, i'm not giving you half the win. if you're town, i don't think you're a scumhunting god.

my plan is the same as yours but faster! i think it's a great one. if anything you should sheep me.

[Chara]

How sure are you this is a fight you want to have

oh baby

also, your response made me excited and now i sort've want to 1v1 you out of the gate for no other reason than to see how far i can push this!

[Chara]

my vote is srs now btw

....seriously?

[Chara]

VOTE: chara

Pretty sure this is scum trying to get townread because why would scum do this

Don't think that they'd actually as town pick this fight.

you don't know me at all and can't make this judgement.

could i be more clear that my posts were not all that serious? i just thought it would be fun to challenge your ego.

[Chara]

oh wait shit I thought I was voting RC
REEEE
VOTE: RC
na chara is town

OKAY GOOD I PANICKED A BIT

[Chara]

also to be clear, while my posts were not completely serious, my point about RC's terrible proposal stands.

and i don't know how he decides town Chara doesn't do something. i don't remember playing more than a couple games with RC.

[Chara]

You clearly know my reputation so you know how I feel about getting wagoned for shit reasons early in the day phase and you start antagonizing me when the game just started?

I don't think that is something that you do as town but I do think that you as scum do it for the cover of why would you make this play

i didn't know you had a reputation for responding badly to early wagons. when you asked me if i was sure this is what i wanted to do, i thought you meant you were confident you could 1v1 me.

[Chara]

You brought up the fact that you were aware of my reputation: not me. I don't think that you as town make this play because of little to do with who you are.

your reputation as a good scum player and scumhunter is what i was referring to.

UNVOTE:

[Chara]

Do you panic easily?

i haven't really thought about it.

[Chara]

TMI as in too much information?
could you explain what you mean?

and sorry, RC. i did just mean to have a little fun when i saw your proposal. my intention wasn't to purposely piss you off due to that part of your reputation. i should have thought about it more considering what i do know of your towngame.

pedit: oh good, maybe you can explain. :>

[Chara]

Maki: whenever you're back, what made you happy with what you thought was your RC vote?

[Chara]

you know, when i asked Maki to play i knew i was going to spend the game wondering if she was scum but also not wanting to lynch her because she's great.
perhaps what i'm surprised at is how early on i started wondering about it.

RC: so if your read on me isn't fully because of your Maki scumread (if i'm reading that correctly), what changed? i mean, i have an idea, but better to know than guess.

[Chara]

:<
not even if it would give me the slightest bit of further insight into your alignment?

pedit: oh, haha, never mind.
if it helps, i don't like that strategy as scum either. going after someone emotionally would just not feel right. (to me personally, anyway) if i ever do so, as either alignment, it's unintentional.
thanks for the answer.

pedit: hm. i'll see what she says about that, i think i have an opinion but i need to consider it.

[Chara]

i feel lucky.
only three 7s are needed.

[Chara]

i thought RC's reaction made a lot of sense considering the misunderstanding.
and 99 doesn't seem to have a lot of scum equity to me.
he could be scum, sure, but right now i'd put him in my townpile.

[Chara]

um.

i mean, great job?
:<
RC if you're town (i mean i don't see how you aren't) i'm mildly upset, i was gonna fight your wagon and wanted your reads.

[Chara]

teach me not to read. seriously, i fall for it every time.

[Chara]

anyway. ignoring that.

i don't consider pushing RC to be very useful as a form of sorting, i suppose. small sample size but that's how it went.

pedit: let's at least play day 1 so you can give your reads and i can sheep the good ones.

[Chara]

you asked me about sheep?
nothing to write home about. i think his reads are probably correct, but i'd need moee time to be confident.

[Chara]

And your townread on rc feels awkward, he can say 99 as scum

of course he can. he can do

anything

as scum. his approach so far isn't anything i'd scumread him for, and if he's town i want to give him a chance to get good reads.

he doesn't feel particularly fake, either. like it's at worst NAI behaviour.

the misunderstanding i referred to is RC thinking i was intentionally trying to rile him up via his meta.

[Chara]

sheep and ZZZX are the only players here i don't know.
NM's alignment is probably just pretty good reads = town, until further notice.

[Chara]

will get to this soon.

preliminary guess upon a town sheep is town RC and scum Creature.
i'm trying not to be unfairly paranoid of Maki, haha.

[Chara]

VOTE: ZZZX

[Chara]

back later! sorry for my lowkey presence, all. but mostly RC if he's town because he's really fighting against the inactivity.

[Chara]

don't think that 177 is at all unreasonable coming from the perspective of you not deserving locktown status and feeling that my antagonism serves no purpose as scum

it was more Creature's scumlean guess on you, combined with what i think was his seeing your unimpressed reaction to sheep's Creature townread as an opportunity to agree to get on the sheep wagon.

and also townreading you, yes, but it was the timing of the vote more than anything else. obviously moot if sheep is scum. i don't know if i have a read there yet.

..or why preflip is what has decided to jump out at me.

UC is maybe-town, if he does more.

[Chara]

vote ZZZX or me for voting ZZZX? :>

[Chara]

i love 341 in an NAI sort of way.

[Chara]

Surprised no one scumreads me.

i thought i implied i was scumleaning you. :>

pedit: Kiana, whatever your underlying strategy here actually is (i honestly can't tell if you're being wholly serious), but i'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume a tongue-in-cheek flavour to your approach.

[Chara]

i love 341 in an NAI sort of way.

Spoiler:

s-shut up Chara

<3

pedit: i'm surprised negotations are ongoing.

[Chara]

am i being naive in simply calling RC town here, and calling it a day?
as for Maki/Dunnstral/Kiana... Kiana is likely town, but the reason i say that may not be a good one.
i do trust Maki's ability to read Dunnstral, if Maki is town.

[Chara]

If you're town, as I suspect, then you get to hold this game over Radiant Cowbells in the future :3

If you're not... well, rawr!

i don't even know RC all that well, and i can tell you that will not work.
don't vote town you think is town on day 1! exceptional situations only should warrant that sort of compromise. nonstandard mechanics are not something i would count as exceptional, however.

[Chara]

though, in this case.
Maki, are you very confident in your Dunnstral read? i have a bias towards scumreading him so i can't seem to read into his posting well, but i also want to say he's scum.

[Chara]

This is an exceptional situation

then i suppose we agree to disagree.
could we not just... lynch Dunnstral instead?

[Chara]

I mean. You should be voting her too, realistically

i don't have a good read on Maki yet, so no thank you.

[Chara]

If you elect a single scum play to heaven I ignore your reads or lynch from then on out, and in that regards I'd prefer you take a moral claim over the first heaven phase.

i object to the use of the first heaven phase as a test. it's 1 half of a scum win if we lose it.

[Chara]

maybe i just dislike all of these "i am right" bets and would rather we take the path that leads to a win, not the one that leads to wrong town lynching themselves.

[Chara]

I genuinely don't think that the way that Dunn interacted with me was scummy and I do think that several things that Maki has done are scummy.

i'm aware. i said that to Kiana because she is scumreading Dunnstral but wants to lynch Maki to prove you wrong.
it's... silly. good from your point of view i'm sure, but silly.

[Chara]

maybe i just dislike all of these "i am right" bets and would rather we take the path that leads to a win, not the one that leads to wrong town lynching themselves.

What if I'm not wrong town though?

i was referring to Kiana.
but you, if you're

right

, the bet doesn't have you lynching yourself.
and if you're scum, it certainly does, but i don't think you're scum in the first place.

[Chara]

9 players in the game.

3 scum, 6 town.

5 to lynch.

If RadiantCowbells doesn't cooperate, and if the scum do not bus, we will be extremely hard-pressed to form a majority to lynch. Five out of six available town, and one is actively trying not to be helpful.

trust me, i do not need to be reminded of how many players we have.
Maki knows my pain. Perpetual Mylo will never be forgotten.

but i don't actually care about this enough to argue it.
i just think it's a silly reason to wagon Maki. and i'm trying to explain why allowing one dissenting town opinion to colour your whole game and decide who you lynch is silly.
it leaves no margin for error, and does not account for any town players who have wrong reads.

[Chara]

I am free to make RadiantCowbells lynch himself as well, if I so choose, if I win my end of the bet. It's pretty clearly stated. However, I haven't expressed a desire to do so, while RadiantCowbells seems intent of immediately lynching me after Maki.

This bet is just to ensure that if he's scum, he won't get away with it.

you can't make RC do anything, actually.
his wincon would demand it regardless of his alignment. this bet is between you two, it's not a majority to lynch in either direction.

pedit: i don't even

have

a good read on Maki, RC. i wouldn't even be objecting if Kiana just thought Maki could be scum and was deciding to temporarily follow your read.

blah, i don't know. i find none of this fun. arguing about why Maki or Dunn is scum would be a better use of time, but maybe i'll just stop grumbling about it. i can play with Maki in another game if she gets lynched here for silly reasons. (if she's scum, however, i guess that's great)

[Chara]

Chara stop for a second: what is your read on Maki that you're this intent on derailing her?

no, i change my mind, i'm townreading Maki.
VOTE: Dunnstral

pedit: well then you're both odd ones, aren't you?
alright, Chara's over it, whatever.
i think RC and Kiana are both town and that this bet is going to end in someone mislynching themself because of a bet, but i can't do much about that now.

[Chara]

Like Chara you of all people in this game should respect my reads when I'm this certain of something. Why do you think my Maki read isn't a good read?

Why do you think that you can read her better than I can?

i don't knoooow. i'm actually terrible at reading her, and i do think your reads are good.
i'll be back later, i don't think i'm acting in an unbiased way at all.

[Chara]

i'm sorry, Maki. i'm townreading RC and my track record of reading you isn't good. :<
also, i realized we have a day left.

[Chara]

well, my track record of reading you as

scum

is not good. haha.

at the same time i'm just townreading her and ignoring that because 'logically she seems to be the better lynch' feels... gross.

[Chara]

i am no longer townreading UC.
VOTE: Maki
L-1

[Chara]

for the record i do feel extremely bad about this if you're town, and worse because i know you'll be very nice about it!

[Chara]

1) ZZZX is most likely to be town.
I find most of his posts looking genuine and having an honest tone. The way he speaks appears to be carefree and giving no restraint, something that wolves would not be likely to be able to falsify, unless they are extremely talented. He was not afraid to challenge the consensus of the general suspicion on sheepsaymeeps, where in most cases, wolves would not be likely to stick their head out to defend a potential mislynch target.

My wish is for ZZZX to be sent to Heaven on Day 2.

this is pretty easy to fake depending on the player. the scum behaviour you're describing here that ZZZX has avoided is entry-level scumplay at best. which is, of course, still seen, but i don't believe it warrants a great townread on him because of that.

(it turns out i missed pages from Kiana's entrance, oops)

though, Kiana, (this is pretty much out of game, feel free to ignore and/or disregard until postgame): for someone townreading ZZZX on his tone, you sure do construct your posts in a mechanical way, and make tonereading

you

exceedingly difficult. :>

[Chara]

town: RC, Kiana
townish: ZZZX, NM

leftovers: Dunnstral, Creature, UC, Maki
i still want to townread Maki for her approach and how it's hit bells i associate with her towngame (and did not notice the lack of in her scumgame, mind you), but.

[Chara]

This doesn't quite line up to me. Clarify your Kiana read?

the first post you quoted was me calling my intention to vote Maki gross, not Kiana'. i do see how you read it, however.

[Chara]

I think NM is very probscum. He's been around and hasn't posted anything. He as a player has a tendency of giving me a decent amount of room but he's voting me D1 this time around which is ick.

considering he's voting you, i understand this position.
NM being around but doing absolutely nothing is why he was easy to mislynch in Twin Trap, though.

the oddest thing about him right now, that i had not considered, is he's sitting here with a wagon at L-1 but complaining about other players making the game unfun.

[Chara]

It occurs to me I may be entirely parsing this wrong can you explain what you mean by 480 and who the she's are?

my gut is saying Maki (she is all of the she's) is town, but i'm making the conscious decision to trust your read, and my townread on you, over that fact.
to lynch my friend who i invited to play this game with me. it would be different if i was scumreading her myself, but i'm not. :<

[Chara]

why are you townreading her?

[Chara]

i'm not the one to argue for Maki scum. if you can explain why RC is actually scum here, that would be more fruitful. at least, to me.

[Chara]

VOTE: ZZZX
i'm fine with that. townreading him more considering NM's read and Kiana's.
Dunnstral i'm happy to send to hell next phase.

i'd want to be sent to heaven myself to be certain, but i probably can't obvtown yet without some more time and more engagement.
i'm sorry, Maki. i should have fought harder for my read, but i wasn't confident in it to begin with.

RC's readslist is pretty great, which is a little alarming considering his Maki read, but i can't deny the truth of it.

the problem with NM town is i've seen him happily mislynch town as town before, so his hesitance to the Maki lynch threw me off. but i also don't have any real experience with his scumgame.

[Chara]

by the way, if ZZZX is scum, i'm tearing this game to pieces. it'll either end in my first-ever mislynch as i go down in flames, or a town win.

[Chara]

perpetual mylo again. it's alright, i've been through this before. it

sucked

, but we managed it.

i'd rather ZZZX waited to hammer, yes. Creature and especially UC need to be in here. i really wouldn't be surprised if the two of them weren't just scum, however.

[Chara]

being inactive isn't a scumtell unless you're Creature. it's meta over a

long

list of games. i don't throw out activity scumtells lightly.

the other reason is i'm townreading a good portion of the active playerlist. in a townhunting world, the leftovers are the scum, as is the case here. UC can obvtown if he posts without being scared to do so, but the fact that he's avoiding getting his feet wet is what makes me think he's scum.

pedit: that.

[Chara]

it's not a policy lynch. if Creature's activity doesn't pick up he's confscum, for real.
i'm disappointed in myself for lynching Maki. the only player who thought she was scum was RC. (i think Dunnstral is scum) sorry Maki. please continue to play games with me, even when i make bad decisions.

i still think RC's town, though i'm less confident. not heaven-voting him anytime soon, but this play as scum is basically shooting himself in the foot.

[Chara]

i can't seem to find Bob's prod timing in the rules, but they should be replaced by him if they really don't post.
it isn't so bad. considering who UC and Creature are as players, their inactivity (and the few posts they do make) should tell us enough to make informed decisions about the game.

[Chara]

Dunn, you're being scumread by... most of the game. i'm not sure they'll listen unless you explain why i'm town.
at the moment i'm reading this as an attempt to discredit me after your scumflip tomorrow.
(i apologize for this if you're town. :<)

[Chara]

also, i agree with the townreads on ZZZX. i didn't like the timing of his posts but looking at his ISO in isolation he does feel rather genuine.
of course, i would prefer myself going up, if anyone is interested, but i'd also like to keep playing the game.
as i said, a ZZZX scumflip means something fun will happen. though i hope he's just town.

[Chara]

you'll never take me alive, Bob.

[Chara]

And who is this most of the game that scumreads me

Kiana and RC circlejerking isn't most of the game

Maki wasn't 100% but i liked her read on you.
why were you scumreading her?

[Chara]

...

Sorry guys.

Sorry mod, but please replace me out.

i'm glad you didn't replace out, because as either alignment this isn't a good reason to.

[Chara]

i've not caught up yet but i'm standing by what i said about what would happen if ZZZX was scum.

[Chara]

in case that wasn't clear, i'm going to obvtown and lead the lynch. i'm trusting my own damn reads now. no more cooperative Chara.

[Chara]

i had ZZZX scum but i was townreading RC and Kiana enough that i took their stances into account and took another look at him. i saw what they were seeing.
look forward to when i get home.
sorry for being so disengaged before. i want to win.

[Chara]

Creature's town, that's true. guaranteed heaven vote tomorrow, i don't think anyone is doubting that. i could probably strongarm myself but i'd rather be in the game for longer.

[Chara]

Okay, Chara I will agree to you leading. I've agreed with most of your reads all game, and, I didn't have to make stupid bets for you to listen or take my words into account. You were the only other one standing beside me defending Maki.

But, please don't make the same mistakes I did. Please be accurate.

this situation is why i was arguing with you about the bets. stand your ground. i should have done that too. i gave in because i thought RC was town and he's pretty good at reading when i'm unsure, which i was.

i could make mistakes, but i don't plan to. i just lost a towngame, and i hate losing.

[Chara]

RC, you have not been obvtown. having bad reads is a legitimate reason to scumread you. i'm just as at fault for following both of your lynches, and it's totally expected i would be trailing readslists with how i've played so far.

[Chara]

why keep quiet about the hardtown read on me, Kiana? it's not mentioned anywhere and this game has no nightkills.

[Chara]

NM's alignment can be reasonably inferred by his vote patterns. i'll take a look soon.

pedit: what part of your plan required tricking scum? walk me through it again, if you would.
i'd also like you to explain why i was obvtown to you early on, before i started posting today.

[Chara]

oh, he hasn't posted since the ZZZX hammer. damn.
please be readable, awoo.

[Chara]

I'll follow Chara

sorry for not listening to you earlier if you're town. can you give me reads besides scum Kiana?

[Chara]

I mean I only need 2 townreads or 1 townread outside of creature to win

Kiana I had that clause for a reason.

There is no scum motivation in burning towncred to get a mislynch

There is tons of scum motivation in burning towncred to send scum to heaven.

as of now i think this is a scumpost. and most of RCs.
RC is probably hard to lynch but i've had this in the back of my mind. he lynched Maki, and then gave the reins to Kiana, knowing ZZZX was scum and she would send him to heaven.
then this defense and an attempt to lead town again after Kiana's failure, RC is ''clean' because he sheeped Kiana.

the next steps would likely be RC sending his partner to hell here, or the next day. either way, RC can get himself into heaven. going before Creature obvtowned and got to heaven first would probably be preferred for him, but either would work.

i haven't used this theory as a lens to look at RC's play yet. it's just a theory. but putting it down before i forget.

not about Creature obvtown: i won't stop being paranoid unless he continues to give thoughts, probably.

[Chara]

what part of your plan required tricking scum?

So, basically, since you were obvious town with me, we needed you on the ground so that Judgement Day would be easy in a 2v2 scenario. RC in heaven as cleared town, I would have no worries to handle it. But the problem was RC's alignment being in question, which was why I was going to have him sent to Heaven. That was a secret too. I wanted it to be a secret surprise

again, considering there's no scumkill, i'm not sure why you had to hide how obvtown i was.
as of now it's worrying at my townread somewhat because this read seems to have come out of nowhere, after i'd started being more aggressive.

an explanation of why i was obvtown way earlier when i was being sluggish would be helpful to me to remove that doubt. :>

[Chara]

Yeah, that's what I'm mainly worried about too! I'm so glad that you see it too Chara :'(

Kiana, this is your first time onsite, right?
are you previous games available for me to view somewhere?
your tone seems sort of fake. not meant as an insult, if that's just how you type, and i apologize for reading as scummy in that case. it makes tonereading you very hard, but it could just be i'm used to mafiascum-style posting and so a different linguistic environment is responsible. :v

[Chara]

Though, that would necessitate two of UCV / NM / Dunn being town.

And, that would kind of be a very sad thing? Because they have not been in the game at all. That would mean that RC won the game before it even begun.

but the game isn't over. we are precariously close to a loss, but we can still win.
Dunnstral tends to have a low post volume in general, and NM is NM. he's easily to mislynch when he doesn't try, but difficult to when he does. of course, that's only two games of experience.
i don't know how to make him try if he's town, unfortunately. :<

and we have awoo now, who i haven't read yet but should be more readable.

[Chara]

Well, I wanted it to be a big reveal or big surprise kind of thing. You were my secret weapon and I thought it would make you happy. I was hinting at it all here before ZZZX flipped.

i'm most interested in what convinced you i'm town.
you're probably town, but there are a few things i need to settle. you should see the questions, though.

[Chara]

that's fair. i'm trying not to let it affect my read too much.
i can pretty much tell you aren't an experienced MS user pretending to be new to the site, at least. (at least, i hope you would not be, but i really don't think you are. and yes, it happens.)

[Chara]

No, I mean that, if those players were town, well, it's just me and you VS the best scum player on the site, since they aren't even trying. AFK teammates.

Dunn, if town, knows i'm town. that's good enough.
same for NM, probably. he seems to be able to read me.
of course those are both ifs. i've barely started.

the rest of this discussion can probably be done in post. again, i apologize for how much following i was doing before.

[Chara]

Lulz

VOTE: RC

Not moving

marginally helpful. thank you NM, it's

something

.

[Chara]

Well, to be complete honest, I wasn't absolutely sure enough of you that you were town to send you to Heaven. But, after doing calculations and probabilities, you were least likely to be scum. Plus, you defended Maki with me and sheeped RC with me for the same reasons that I sheeped him. Everything you did surrounding the Maki vs RC conflict was remarkably similar to what I was thinking. If I'm wrong about that too and you're scum too, I might as well quit mafia.

can you put your energy into being more in-depth about this?
i do understand what you're saying, though.
currently, a secret weapon you were not completely sure if does not sound like a good idea.
what do you mean by calculations and probabilities? did any of those change after Maki and ZZZX's flip?

(sorry for all the questions, you're online and i really want to figure this game out.)

[Chara]

I lied, will vote Dunn also

more words on this, or posts?
i'm getting deja vu, but i was scum in that game.

[Chara]

i need everyone to vote with me when something is decided (if possible), but i can't very well read players who are only sheeping me, so just following me isn't enough.

i also don't think my townplay is good enough to just lead the town, but i don't think there's another choice here. hopefully i've improved enough, but i pretty much can still count "obvtowning" as my only skill, so i need help.

off-track, though.
and no, games can't be too easy. ;>

[Chara]

You behave like obvious scum and even Maki, who is your best friend and cleared town, scumread you. So, you're in the category of "either scum or mislynch problem" just like with NM and UCV. Just as bad.

i don't agree with this. if Dunnstral is town, he's here and playing. not a lurker or just a "problem". i find this appraisal a bit unfair.
but this line of discussion probably isn't AI.

[Chara]

My calculations were based on the assumptions that ZZZX flipped town and Dunnstral flipping scum.

Maki flipping town was pretty expected, so it did not change.

I wasn't sure before I came up with my plan but after I came up with my plan I was pretty sure.

why was i, specifically, secret obvtown? what about the rest of the game?
if you weren't able to read a good portion of the game, i don't think you could figure me town by process of elimination through this plan, either.

[Chara]

I'm not just sheeping you. I've been working with you and we came to the same conclusions about RC post-ZZZX flip (and Maki previously).

i know you aren't just sheeping me, i meant in general, it's not something we'd be able to win with.

[Chara]

What do you make of Maki agreeing with me that Dunnstral was scum?

i was also scumreading Dunn, so it's feasible Maki would. he could still be scum, but it's not on lock. something i'm taking in account though, for sure.
(sorry for lynching you, Maki. i'd rather have mistakenly thought you were scum than lynched you while deciding to go against my own read.)

[Chara]

You are among them the easiest to sort of all.

you said my reasoning and actions mirrored yours, and that was why i was towny. is that what you're referring to? any other behaviour?
(almost done, i'll leave you alone after this.)

[Chara]

I can't say I'm surprised at that revelation.

I can see why people scumread ZZZX but I don't think he's necessarily scum for what he's done thus far. Would rather see more from him, still much moew confident in a shoop scumflip

Like ZZZX is very lynchbaity and nothing so far tells me whether he's town or scum without further engagement.

these are actually the posts that had me first consider changing direction.
i have other scum RC posts but i have to avoid being biased in this read. will be home in a few hours, good bye for now.

please don't lynch while i'm offline. :>

pedit: that's it, Kiana. take a rest. sorry about all this, ot was really helpful.

[Chara]

like. i need to make sure i'm not just scumreading him for a lot of his reads being pretty off. i could be biased because i came from a game where RC nailed me as scum and had a good enough handle on things he was being sheeped (if not completely listened to) and killed night 1.
the approach to the deal with you, the ZZZX read, the turnaround on you, etc. all look orchestrated.

pedit: Kiana, it's alright. you were pushing a read you thought was right. that's how mafia goes. you'll get used to the site.

[Chara]

yes, ignore how i am explicitly not going to be doing that.
why should we be sheeping you when you haven't been right so far, on a hypothetical townflip?
what reason is there?

[Chara]

sorry you feel that way.
my question in 752 was in good faith.

[Chara]

and so begins the search for games RC has actually been in (and not just commented on in postgame, of which there are many) and replaced out in this emotional fashion, as scum.

[Chara]

We have 1 full week to figure out who's the best lynch today. Chara, I'm counting on you.

this is a picture of me, beginning to intensely regret declaring myself leader.
that's mostly a joke.

awoo: why is Creature scum if RC is? i agreed with the townread there (and i believe others did) and i'm certainly not sheeping RC.

[Chara]

blah. i hate when games become me attempting to determine if someone would replace out in the way RC did, as scum. i don't think it's appropriate townplay either, but it's legitimate at least. and scum

can

get genuinely upset and i have seen it plenty.
scum RC emotionally replacing out because he's being scumread is so... unfitting, with what i know of him as a scum player, but i also don't know him too well.
god, do i miss Maki.
does anyone else have any insight into this? i'm putting the work in but someone who actually knows him would be helpful.

[Chara]

RC wouldn't have done it because of his winrate, i know that much.
and he does tend to react very badly as town to being scumread. he gets frustrated and gives up, and often self-votes. as scum he naturally has to do that too, or pretend to, if it happens, but i don't know about

actually

replacing.
someone can correct me if i'm wrong. finding games is proving difficult. your egosearch is full of games you did not set foot in, RC. :v

[Chara]

I'm not super sure but if you and Creature are town, we can win this game by lynching RC, even if he flips town. But I don't want to make the same mistake and think this game too easy again, only to throw the game for real this time.

if the replace-out can tell me something significant, i plan to use it. if not, we'll see.
this game won't be easy.
and being wrong isn't the same as throwing! you're fine.

[Chara]

Kiana: why does awoo look town to you? is it simply putting effort in?

[Chara]

i don't find post length indicative of much.
the replace out doesn't say anything unless he has a strong pattern of only doing such things as town. RC replaces out quite a bit so i'll see if i can find something.

unfortunately, it's all just experience, Kiana. i'd wager MS meta is different from what you're used to. i

would

say that post length doesn't indicate much of anything, to me.

can we go back to your Dunnstral scumread? i feel like i dismissed him when i shouldn't have, and though i'm unsure of his alignment i do think his points to you were fair and i don't see what you're calling blatantly scummy. maybe a little scummy, but i do tend to scumread him.

[Chara]

the way you described it made it seem like it was just length, i apologize.
could you explain why it's towny? your thought process would be helpful in a few ways.

[Chara]

alright, where were we.
RC is the flavour of the day, but not the only player in the game.
Creature, do you have reads?

NM: do you think he replaces out like this as scum? it could be considered tactical.

[Chara]

UNVOTE:

I mean I think they're scum but this would basically be a tactical replace

after saying this, as well.

[Chara]

i think RC replacing out threw me for a loop. i know he tends to get dranatic when wagoned as both alignments, but i don't think he would do something like replace out as scum upon being suspected. and he made it rather clear his reason for replacing out was how he was treated in the game, not an outside factor.

[Chara]

hey! thanks for replacing in.

[Chara]

while i agree with that in principle, Kiana's replace out was explicitly said by her to be related to voting ZZZX to heaven.
it might be smart to avoid it anyway, but it's difficult not to.

also, i'm bored and at a train station for a while. let's solve this.

[Chara]

awoo: you seemed very committed to your plan and the RC lynch. why does NM work too?
what do you think of RC's replace-out?

[Chara]

ZZZX went from scumreading NM to soft-defending him. the issue there is ZZZX probably knew he would be sent to heaven at around the time of Kiana's replacement and thus would flip scum early on.
i wonder if the partner-tells are a read herring on his part.

[Chara]

red herring, but read herring would be a pretty good pun if i'd done it better.

[Chara]

Would like to know if anyone thinks Chara has obvtowned.

is it pretty funny that only scum has posted this before in previous games? :v i don't really think it indicates anything, but it's funny.
Creature, why are you asking other people, or asking this at all?

[Chara]

town: jmo, Kiana
townish: Creature

leftovers: awoo, NM, Dunnstral

i liked Dunn's ZZZX suspicion but he didn't actually vote him, just expressed support. on ZZZX's side there's no real interaction that would indicate they aren't partners.

i think i'm throwing my weight into RC town here. i wish he'd worked with me when i posted my theory on scum him, however. it was wrong, but i feel i could have figured that out without him having to replace.
i'm townreading Kiana but i don't want to heaven vote her.
Creature is townish and i'm not docking him marks for low post volume as this game is not especially exciting right now.

Creature: do you have a readslist for us?

[Chara]

i feel extremely bad about this if Dunnstral is town here, but i think it's him/awoo.
VOTE: awoo
discuss?

or vote with me. :>

[Chara]

this is somewhat based on Perpetual Mylo strategy. early-game scum have to be extremely cautious of how they play in order to make sure at least the majority of their members are townread. in this case, i would expect only 1 or 0 scum to be voting ZZZX to heaven. it's consistent with my bad feelings about awoo.
Dunnstral is more difficult to discuss. back soon.

[Chara]

is RC still scum?

[Chara]

that's NM.
do

you

have input?

[Chara]

exactly. Kiana called for it. scum didn't need to vote ZZZX for him to be heaven voted.

i'd rather you read and put in effort regardless of how you feel about me.

RC's read on Creature doesn't matter. Creature is often an easy read. hypothetical scum RC townreading him means nothing.

why is NM scum?

and town should absolutely be examining the behaviour of flipped scum to solve the game. how exactly do you justify not looking at his play?

[Chara]

and awoo: read on jmo? is it enough that he's just posting? RC was not unreadable.
is NM unreadable?

[Chara]

Except that was 100% decided by kiana and everyone else just went along with it. There could be anywhere from 1 to 3 scum ('cause zman selfed LOL) on that ZZZX wagon because kiana called for it, they could placed no votes or all their votes.

this in particular.
my 0-1 guess is based on the makeup of the wagon and obviously does not include confscum ZZZX voting there. he doesn't need to worry about looking towny because he's done his job.
who's left? me, RC, NM, Kiana.
you have Kiana as locktown and me as written off town before i voted you.
that just leaves NM.
meaning NM is scum who voted the townled wagon, or town. and the other scum stayed off of it. 3 scum on that wagon doesn't really make sense.

[Chara]

Creature: that's fair. for what it's worth, Maki knows me very well and figured out i was town near-instantly.
Dunnstral also, though he's currently my best guess for the other scum.

[Chara]

hi Kiana!

why

does awoo's recent posting seem town?

pedit: i am.

[Chara]

that was not much question.
he hasn't done anything. he's suggested lynching RC to settle the slot's alignment, and is happy to do the same with NM. he hasn't tried to engage jmo on anything despite being concerned about RC's alignment before.
his most recent post was entirely in reaction to my scumread on him.

he says RC's flip gives clears to solve the game, but doesn't talk to jmo about anything. just votes NM with him.
what's town?

[Chara]

What made you change your mind on RC slot from making him "hmm I don't know" into "I'm sure he's town"?

my theory didn't hold up.
1) scum RC is better than this.
2) the turnaround on you was far too blatant in hindsight.
3) reaction to my theory and wishes to vote him resulted in a replace-out. scum RC should have been able to handle that without replacing. outside chance of the replace out being NAI and instead a reaction to awoo's off-colour trigger joke, which i honestly also cringed at.
4) i still think his opening was towny.

[Chara]

and unwillingness to bet the game on a replace-out is why i had three other points. :>

scum RC isn't scared of you, Kiana. not scared of me, either.

[Chara]

i finished a scumgame a week ago where i mislynched NM by saying "i know he always plays like this, but everyone else is townish and NM isn't doing anything."
it worked.

he rarely does anything on his main. he tends to have more fun on his alt account and thus does more, but on his NM account it's usually this. he's difficult to read.
he could be scum for his vote patterns but i'm happier with awoo.

[Chara]

in that game RC caught me day 1, and NM just sheeped him. he did nothing else and didn't answer my questions.
so yes, he could absolutely be town here.

there's also when i asked him to lynch Maki and he didn't want to. scum and town NM both have no problems with lolhammering. he wouldn't have been afraid of blowback as scum. it could have been the longgame (which i'm wary of) but there's really nothing to indicate that besides paranoia.

[Chara]

Weird. It almost sounds like you're saying you are town for not pushing another potential mislynch again.

?
if you're going to shade me, at least be explicit about it. if you think NM's flipping town, unvote him. if not, then i'm defending scum.

i never once said "this is why i'm town".

[Chara]

Tempted to call Dunnstral and Not_Mafia both scum by PoE.

talk about your townreads for me?
this PoE is the same as mine if awoo is taken out, but i'm not 100% on anything.
in particular the why for awoo town would be helpful.

[Chara]

i wsasn't calling myself scum

or

you scummy. i was explaining to you why i didn't think NM was scummy in particular.

[Chara]

*myself town. and other typos.

[Chara]

but upon elaboration i do see how you read it, now.

Creature: i appreciate it. :>
i'm a...

little

more sure of jmo town than Kiana town currently, but i do think the last scum is just in Dunnstral/NM/awoo.

Creature heaven vote tomorrow is my preference.

[Chara]

Hi, who would be the third consensus townread?

i'm not sure. it will be easier to determine after the hell flip, but for now i would say jmo.

[Chara]

That would most likely be me.

I want to see what Chara thinks of a Not Mafia wagon. Is it the winning wagon or a dangerous one?

it's not 'dangerous', but i find it less helpful.
the fact that people are avoiding being the last vote (or saying they would be willing to be the hammer) on awoo is bothering me.
NM is null. he's in my scumpile only because he hasn't towned. he could be scum, but awoo is genuinely scummy. if NM flips scum that's wonderful, but if NM flips town i expect everyone who's not following me on awoo for some as yet unexplained reason to do so.
i don't think he knows what to do about me trying to lunch him, either.

[Chara]

This is literally what Chara just said about Not_Mafia.

Are you deliberately being a prick or?

i know i said this, but i don't know how else to say "i really think awoo is scum, can we please lynch him", because that pretty much trumps my NM PoE read.

[Chara]

Like I would have voted zzzx - I was on a different wagon (and if zzzx wagon built up I'd vote there)

VOTE: Not_Mafia

i thought you were going to follow me?
why take the NM wagon to l-1 (i think) instead of going after awoo?

[Chara]

the issue is this. if awoo is town, mafia should be voting him without fear, because i'm leading the lynch and it will discredit me.
instead it's NM (who should be joining as either alignment, honestly, but absolutely as scum), and jmo, the player who i had a disagreement with earlier.

both Kiana and Dunnstral, who said they would follow my plan, are instead supporting the NM wagon.
it

probably

means something, but as of now i'm just confused and trying to figure oit how the last two scum would be playing this.

[Chara]

no, Kiana isn't supporting the wagon so much as asking if i liked the NM wagon. i did think i made it clear i thought awoo is scum and the one i'm most confident about, but perhaps i need to do so again?

[Chara]

Kiana is the tiebreaker, regardless. i could probably figure something out from this situation were i better at mafia.

neither of them are bad lynches, per se. i do wonder if the last mafia (assumining that one of NM/awoo is the second mafia) wants to be on a scum lynch here in order to be sent to heaven later.

[Chara]

i think both lynches are worthwhile. it could be NM/awoo or NM/Dunnstral. or surprise scum in one of the two replace-out cases (Kiana and RC/jmo). hoping it is not the last two, and i don't think it is, either.

before anyone hammers, i want Dunn to answer why he's chosen NM if both awoo and NM are scum to him.

[Chara]

i don't know what to make of your answer, Dunn.

Kiana: no, i'm not sure. i don't think his reaction has been good, though.

awoo: i feel as though i explained why i voted you. would you engage with that?

[Chara]

VOTE: Kiana

We should just lynch this.

i'm not heaven voting Kiana right now, if it helps. won't be sending her to hell, either.
it's NM, Dunn, or awoo today.

[Chara]

that's a very helpful response to my scumread awoo, thank you. good talk.

[Chara]

you asked me to talk to you, you asked me to explain myself, but you really don't seem interested in either.

[Chara]

no, don't send me to heaven.

[Chara]

i'm staying in the game, we're not done yet.

[Chara]

i'm not sure you're town yet, NM.
i'd like to use what time we have this heaven phase to figure out who the last scum is. i'll probably send Creature to heaven at the end of it.
unfortunately, there's no towncred to be had for following me onto a scum lynch, though i wish it were that easy.

[Chara]

also i was very afraid that would flip town and you would all turn on me, so i would like to bask for just a moment.

pedit: oh, you're probably right, Dunn's my next guess for hell.

[Chara]

awoo didn't really try to fight it, so it was easy. i'm concerned the last scum will actually attempt a win, and that it isn't so cut and dry.
i feel Creature is obvious town, does anyone else think different?

[Chara]

i'm still a bit paranoid of Kiana, but she's probably town.
what has you worried about Creature?

i was also considering sending jmo.

[Chara]

i... what?
i thought you agreed i raised good points. and awoo did... literally nothing to defend himself. it wasn't exactly a hard catch. his switch from RC to NM was suspicious too.
did you not mean what you said about liking my points?

[Chara]

VOTE: jmo

Discuss.

i don't hate it, but who's scum?

NM: you're the only one here besides Dunnstral who i think knows Creature's meta.
the rest of you i haven't played with before, so you might, but you haven't brought it up yet.
those who know him: do you think the meta is cut and dry? in my experience it is, but it could be anecdotal. i don't want to lose here because of a dumb heaven pick but i'd also rather not go to heaven if i could help it.

[Chara]

I don't know how you caught Awoo and I just want to review it for further research so I can catch scum better next time. It has nothing to do whether I think you are town or not, but it only shows that you are more skilled than I thought. If only you did the leading D1 instead of me and RC

ahaha, i am really not all that skilled. i really don't think awoo was very towny at all and even i wasn't

sure

he'd flip scum.

[Chara]

sorry Kiana, i can't send you to heaven.
i want to townread you, but your posts are very... they remind me of a newbies. which makes sense, as you are one, but it also makes me wonder about the meta of wherever you came from. a lot of surface-level analysis and some thoughts i'm not sure i quite believe.
if i can't make a decision by the end of the heaven phase i'll be voting myself, but at the moment my candidates are jmo and Creature.
if anyone has reason to believe either are scum or even just "not town enough", that would be helpful.

[Chara]

jmo
Creature
NM, Kiana
Dunnstral

Kiana read is almost all paranoia. the problem is i don't know enough about her as a player or as a person to rule out the replace-out ruse, even though i'd like to.
NM has made sense all game and is where he is because there's really nothing he couldn't realistically do as scum, but probably town.
Creature is a meta read. last game with scum-him had him as obvscum to the whole playerlist, but it was with players who knew his meta.
jmo is due to where i am with RC's replace-out and his scum persona. i don't know how valid it is but jmo has also been towny with fighting me on NM, the paranoia of me and how he read my posts, and the awoo vote in spite of our disagreement. generally behaving in a way that is not conducive to making friends is also a factor on the townread.
Dunnstral i need to revisit. i don't understand his reasoning on not voting awoo, or how flipping NM instead is following my plan. i sort of understand the Kiana scumread, but Dunn needs to explain why scum Kiana tries a replace-out gambit after her ZZZX plan succeeds. though newbie scum Kiana could have been unaware that tactical replace-outs aren't allowed, as she thought RC might have tried such a thing.
in the end i don't know if townreading the replace-out is a good avenue, considering she is new to the site.
the only read i'm exceptionally confident in is the jmo townread.

[Chara]

Okay then. I believe in you!

a nice sentiment, but i would rather you talk about your reads or argue why you're town. that would help me. :>

back to Dunnstral scum... i don't remember if you discussed why you were so sure of that. i don't think your case was very convincing.

[Chara]

i'm really embarrassed about that. doubly so considering it was Maki. i blame a lack of confidence in myself that i need to rectify somehow. :<

pedit: paranoia stops me from committing to you, NM. and i don't know if i can trust us to win if i'm not calling the shots. it's a fun pickle.

[Chara]

NM: you voted ZZZX day 1 after you had been voting me. then moved to RC.
he kept calling you scum, but you were happy to send him to heaven. could you tell me about that?

[Chara]

why was he towny later?

[Chara]

awoo's behaviour around RC doesn't feel like scum/scum. add everything else and i'll probably vote jmo for heaven. please don't be lazy and just go along with it, i really do need help if this is wrong.

NM: i see, thank you.

[Chara]

you can show me you're town via your reads and why you have them. such as Dunnstral. :>

[Chara]

if it was just the replace-out i wouldn't be happy with it either. i think the towny aspects of both jmo and RC's play are something to be considered, too.

i do understand what you mean with the frustration of OOG screwing with the game.

pedit: i have to say, that's disappointing. ISO yourself? ISO Dunnstral? you sort of cased him earlier.

[Chara]

Kiana: will get back to you on Dunnstral.

Creature: i haven't, this is her first game on-site.

[Chara]

Dunnstral is most likely scum, but i'm pretty much paranoid of every player not named Creature. or jmo.

[Chara]

it's probably just Dunnstral and i'm being silly, but i'd like to make sure we're still able to win if we lynch Dunn next phase and he's town.

[Chara]

that was my preference, but i'm going to take a day for now and thinm about it.
i'm currently paranoid of the entire playerlist, which is not a good time for me to make a decision.

[Chara]

thanks for waiting for me. :v

[Chara]

@mod: you have awoo ascending to heaven in the first post.

[Chara]

thank you to the four who voted Creature and prevented me from agonizing about it for three days. my greatest enemy is myself.

next is... i'll eliminate jmo from consideration for sending to hell, and NM too.
so Kiana and Dunnstral.
it's probably Dunnstral.

[Chara]

i wasn't worried about you being scum until you suggested sending me to hell.
why are you calling Dunn a newb?

[Chara]

you can't tell me Dunn is town unless you explain why. i'm willing to listen, but your explanation can't be "there isn't a good scum case".
NM is also one of the players who voted Awoo with me without argument. of course scum could do that, but i need more of an explanation for why he's scum.

here's the rub: if you're going to say Dunn is town, and that Kiana is town, with

confidence

i need to know why. calling me into question because i "could have a good scum game" doesn't say much. you could say that about any towny player.

[Chara]

Dunns scum game either relies on him just telling everyone he's town like he's new town, or he's actually newb town. Please don't take offence to that.

Dunn isn't new. his scumgame is ok. just ok. i hope you aren't townreading him just because he keeps saying he's town and you find that naive. i'm not betting the game on that.

i misread earlier, and i see this is your explanation for Dunn town. i don't think it's enough.
his reason for not voting Awoo was awkward at best and he's yet to explain his logic.

[Chara]

note the above isn't me insulting Dunn's scumgame. it's better than mine. i meant that he hasn't done anything he wouldn't do as scum.

[Chara]

I'm pretty sure the lynch order is me -> kiana/nm -> kiana/nm anyway so it doesn't matter unless I think mafia is somebody else

i'd still like to know who your best guess is. the less risk, the better.

i don't think jmo is scum either, (i know what i said just now) though my reaction to his last two posts was to wonder where he's gotten his reads.

[Chara]

as for NM's hammer being quick: jmo, that's how NM plays. his hammers aren't AI. i was actually suspicious of him earlier for hesitating to hammer Maki because of how i know him.

[Chara]

I had you going in by poe. I don't have a good case for you being scum besides being unsettled. Does my idea sound bad to onlookers? Sure, does it secure a town win? Sure.

it doesn't secure a town win unless your reads are right.
that you don't know Dunnstral and are making guesses about what his scumgame might be doesn't inspire me to trust your reads. and why is Kiana town?

[Chara]

if NM is scum i'm making a fool of myself for post-game. :v

pedit: so you're not really sure.
you should consider if scum Chara lets Creature go to heaven yesterday. NM voted me, Creature voted me, all i had to do was get a vote from Kiana or Dunnstral (both players who are explicitly trusting me, especially in the wake of the Awoo lynch) and i would have won. there's no sense in continuing the game and potentially worsening my position. especially considering if i'm the last scum, i would have to lead a string to town hell lynches.
starting with conftown Chara will make the game easier to solve.

[Chara]

of course, i'm going to heaven at our next vote, so maybe it doesn't matter. ahaha.
jmo is probably town. i'd want him sent to heaven after i am if we screw up twice on trying to send scum to hell. i'd also rather we just don't screw up.

[Chara]

i was busy today. we have time.

[Chara]

great job everyone!
if Dunnstral had flipped town i would have gone Kiana and hoped for the best. but this was much easier.
sorry for the suspicion, Kiana.

[Chara]

seriously, talk about calling the obvious scumteam and obvious town and then second-guessing myself. thanks for picking up the slack.

[Chara]

that's alright. thanks for going back and looking. :>
i got nervous too, but i did remember why i was townreading you a few minutes later.

[Chara]

close game! ggs to all

getting ZZZX to heaven before any scum flip was a HUGE advantage for scum. it enabled them to bus for that sweet sweet towncred. too bad they didn't capitalize on that

this fact is why i was nervous about giving towncred to the awoo wagon. i was, evidently, too cautious in this case, but it's something i would expect scum to do in general.

about the first-day bet: any bet that involves town having to be right in their reads is a bad one, which is why i reacted so strongly to it. boo to me for not simply sticking to my guns. did not feel like fighting RC all game and wanted to trust his read.

[Chara]

so you're still not reading my posts.
if you'd had a conversation with me about my scumread (which was in flux) i believe we could have gotten somewhere. instead you replace-out and because i don't want to believe scum RC simply replaces when the winds don't go his way, it had a lot to do with my eventual townread on you.
pretending jmo wasn't towny is also unfair to jmo.

it wasn't "shit on RC" day, and the only post towards you i would consider unfair is Awoo's post, who was scum.