Micro 650: Mislead 2: A Maze of our Own Devising (Restarted)

[Realeo]

Consider me /in for your plan, because that's what I have been advocating. I have problems with the d1 plan and the scumpool idea--but it's a little bit out of reach to analyze it now so d1 plan only.

[Infinity 324]

Probably quite a bit more accurately, we'll have a flip and twice as much content to go off of.

[Imperium]

I've been thinking about this today and I think we've been thinking about this a little too simplistically. I don't think it's easy as find two scum and then the guaranteed town go on for the win. In fact, I don't think we even get flips in the traditional sense. Because if we did, why would this be in the rules:

Additionally, because Maze Guardians necessarily follow themselves into danger, they will necessarily be trapped at the latest when their segment is attempted (they may also choose to trap themselves earlier in order to mislead the town into thinking they are innocent).

Now I guess if we choose to follow and we go through then that person is essentially confirmed town? But yeah, I don't think it's as simple as some people, like pepto, have been suggesting.

I have some other thoughts on the setup, but I'm going to ask cfj some questions first because I don't want my random weirdness to confuse anyone else if I'm just completely wrong on how the setup works, and I'll double check the flip thing then too.

[Imperium]

I'm not trolling, you're scum

The last time I said hi to someone in my opening post and they didn't say hi back, they were scum. Are you scum?

[Imperium]

Ah, shit. I forgot this game existed. I apologize for that.

I haven't seen anything in this game so far. Just felt the need to say that I am here and not the forgetting about this curiouser and curiouser game.

Why did you apologize for not being here when the game wasn't even 24 hours old?

[Not_Mafia]

Oh I didn't realise, hi Tammy

[Imperium]

Imperium, I apologize, but this is my first time playing the game with a hydra in it? If it doesn't inconvenience you, could you perhaps make future annotation of which head is talking? And also, it's not like we're lynching Realeo. We're just voting for whose portion of the Maze we are attempting first, no? You voting for him would just have stopped meta-talk for this phase, but it's not like that would have stopped in the path-choosing phase either.

.

We don't sign our hydras. We're not a crazy confusing hydra so there should be no problems understanding us.

I know we're not lynching with our vote, but I'd also prefer not to have the segment maker chosen so soon either. Although I did think when I made the original post that there was no talk during the night phase and we'd have to choose what to do privately, which was wrong. Still, I don't want to go into the next phase on so little because that's still way way too little information to make the choice on.

[Imperium]

Thank you for placing your trust in us. We will not let you down

Actually it's because I think you're scum

I think an early scum flip will give town a lot of information with which to predict the following flips.

Got that hass

It's okay you won't hold that silly read for long!

[Infinity 324]

I've been thinking about this today and I think we've been thinking about this a little too simplistically. I don't think it's easy as find two scum and then the guaranteed town go on for the win. In fact, I don't think we even get flips in the traditional sense. Because if we did, why would this be in the rules:

Additionally, because Maze Guardians necessarily follow themselves into danger, they will necessarily be trapped at the latest when their segment is attempted (they may also choose to trap themselves earlier in order to mislead the town into thinking they are innocent).

Now I guess if we choose to follow and we go through then that person is essentially confirmed town? But yeah, I don't think it's as simple as some people, like pepto, have been suggesting.

I have some other thoughts on the setup, but I'm going to ask cfj some questions first because I don't want my random weirdness to confuse anyone else if I'm just completely wrong on how the setup works, and I'll double check the flip thing then too.

My understanding is this: After everyone votes on whether to follow or distrust, the player whose section you are attempting flips, but no one else does.

[Infinity 324]

It's okay you won't hold that silly read for long!

ugh that pings me too

Why so sure?

[Imperium]

I don't see sarcasm.

I see him saying he would've voted you as a joke based on what vedith said (and the same in 35)

First of all that'd be a slightly scummy thing to do, like "look at me I don't care about doing things that people call scummy"

Second I don't see a reason to point that out when you didn't do it.

I liked the forced accusation better, it was less silly than this.

The entire whole reason for it?

It amused me.

I remember you being way more insightful in the hunger games. I hope this is your garden variety throw out random crap to see if it sticks type stuff.

[Imperium]

It's okay you won't hold that silly read for long!

ugh that pings me too

Why so sure?

Because I'm town, told you in my first post duh, and you're welcome. Town is what I do.

[Imperium]

I've been thinking about this today and I think we've been thinking about this a little too simplistically. I don't think it's easy as find two scum and then the guaranteed town go on for the win. In fact, I don't think we even get flips in the traditional sense. Because if we did, why would this be in the rules:

Additionally, because Maze Guardians necessarily follow themselves into danger, they will necessarily be trapped at the latest when their segment is attempted (they may also choose to trap themselves earlier in order to mislead the town into thinking they are innocent).

Now I guess if we choose to follow and we go through then that person is essentially confirmed town? But yeah, I don't think it's as simple as some people, like pepto, have been suggesting.

I have some other thoughts on the setup, but I'm going to ask cfj some questions first because I don't want my random weirdness to confuse anyone else if I'm just completely wrong on how the setup works, and I'll double check the flip thing then too.

My understanding is this: After everyone votes on whether to follow or distrust, the player whose section you are attempting flips, but no one else does.

Did you play or read the first one? I was going to look at that to see if the setup was similar and if there were flips. Regardless, I'm asking that question so hopefully soon we will know!

[Infinity 324]

I don't see sarcasm.

I see him saying he would've voted you as a joke based on what vedith said (and the same in 35)

First of all that'd be a slightly scummy thing to do, like "look at me I don't care about doing things that people call scummy"

Second I don't see a reason to point that out when you didn't do it.

I liked the forced accusation better, it was less silly than this.

The entire whole reason for it?

It amused me.

I remember you being way more insightful in the hunger games. I hope this is your garden variety throw out random crap to see if it sticks type stuff.

That's what happens sometimes when I try to explain gut reads

But this kinda how I play early game. There's not much to go into depth with.

It's okay you won't hold that silly read for long!

ugh that pings me too

Why so sure?

Because I'm town, told you in my first post duh, and you're welcome. Town is what I do.

But why not consider that I might be scum, or town that will continue to have a wrong read?

[Imperium]

Oh I didn't realise, hi Tammy

You didn't say you weren't scum. Can't even bring yourself to lie to me?

[Infinity 324]

I've been thinking about this today and I think we've been thinking about this a little too simplistically. I don't think it's easy as find two scum and then the guaranteed town go on for the win. In fact, I don't think we even get flips in the traditional sense. Because if we did, why would this be in the rules:

Additionally, because Maze Guardians necessarily follow themselves into danger, they will necessarily be trapped at the latest when their segment is attempted (they may also choose to trap themselves earlier in order to mislead the town into thinking they are innocent).

Now I guess if we choose to follow and we go through then that person is essentially confirmed town? But yeah, I don't think it's as simple as some people, like pepto, have been suggesting.

I have some other thoughts on the setup, but I'm going to ask cfj some questions first because I don't want my random weirdness to confuse anyone else if I'm just completely wrong on how the setup works, and I'll double check the flip thing then too.

My understanding is this: After everyone votes on whether to follow or distrust, the player whose section you are attempting flips, but no one else does.

Did you play or read the first one? I was going to look at that to see if the setup was similar and if there were flips. Regardless, I'm asking that question so hopefully soon we will know!

I played the first one, but it was a lot different. The paths weren't associated with the players, and there was one per night phase, and everyone had the ability once per game to predict the safe path for that night.

In this game, it'll be clear whether the player whose section we just attempted was town or scum from the flips, even if the mod doesn't tell us.

And I think it says in the rules that trapped players don't flip, if they did then scum would always have to predict flips correctly which would probably make it unbalanced. Plus then when you went through a trapped town player's section everyone would know to follow.

[Imperium]

I don't see sarcasm.

I see him saying he would've voted you as a joke based on what vedith said (and the same in 35)

First of all that'd be a slightly scummy thing to do, like "look at me I don't care about doing things that people call scummy"

Second I don't see a reason to point that out when you didn't do it.

I liked the forced accusation better, it was less silly than this.

The entire whole reason for it?

It amused me.

I remember you being way more insightful in the hunger games. I hope this is your garden variety throw out random crap to see if it sticks type stuff.

That's what happens sometimes when I try to explain gut reads

But this kinda how I play early game. There's not much to go into depth with.

It's okay you won't hold that silly read for long!

ugh that pings me too

Why so sure?

Because I'm town, told you in my first post duh, and you're welcome. Town is what I do.

But why not consider that I might be scum, or town that will continue to have a wrong read?

Well your gut read is wrong, but that's okay! People who've never played with me before have a tendency to think my opening is weird, or forced, or doesn't make sense and therefore I'm scum. They usually come around.

Why do you think I don't consider you might be scum?

And if you are town I don't think you'll continue with your read. I followed hunger games and you seemed a rather thoughtful scumhunter. I don't think most people will continue to think I'm scum once I'm fully engaged in the game because town is just what I do. And I'm pretty giddy to have finally drawn town, so I don't see a lack of engagement issue that will give people a false read on me.

[Imperium]

Okay never mind what I said before. We do get flips. Obviously if we follow town, they're confirmed town, but we will get flips. Also, when the people who are trapped die, we will get flips for them upon their death but that is after their segment gets completed.

Also once someone has been confirmed town due to their segment being completed and trusted, they can't create a new segment. I think that was probably obvious from the we must try all nine segments thing, but it wasn't to me, so just in case anyone else wondered each person can only create one segment.

[Imperium]

I'll have to talk to nacho later about his thoughts on coordination. He hadn't read the setup until yesterday, so he hadn't been really thinking about it, but I do agree that some level of coordination can help us.

You follow yourself, so if scum start a segment they will be trapped and die and flip there. So we need to figure out how to coordinate things so that we're not fucked from the start.

[Infinity 324]

Well your gut read is wrong, but that's okay! People who've never played with me before have a tendency to think my opening is weird, or forced, or doesn't make sense and therefore I'm scum. They usually come around.

Can you give a couple examples of openings from other games other people found forced?

Why do you think I don't consider you might be scum?

Because you said I'd drop the read, which I might not have motivation to do as scum.

And if you are town I don't think you'll continue with your read. I followed hunger games and you seemed a rather thoughtful scumhunter. I don't think most people will continue to think I'm scum once I'm fully engaged in the game because town is just what I do. And I'm pretty giddy to have finally drawn town, so I don't see a lack of engagement issue that will give people a false read on me.

Haha well that's optimistic, but I'm glad you have a high opinion of my town play.

Okay never mind what I said before. We do get flips. Obviously if we follow town, they're confirmed town, but we will get flips. Also, when the people who are trapped die, we will get flips for them upon their death but that is after their segment gets completed.

Also once someone has been confirmed town due to their segment being completed and trusted, they can't create a new segment. I think that was probably obvious from the we must try all nine segments thing, but it wasn't to me, so just in case anyone else wondered each person can only create one segment.

This is correct.

So a weird thing about the interactions between our slots is that I've seen nacho's play and you've seen my play, but none of us have actually played together before.

[Imperium]

For a plan I'm thinking we can kinda wing it d1, a bunch of us can flee. Then later on, we can start eliminating people from the scumpool. Then each player chooses 1-2 scumteams (depending on whether they have their flee left) from the scumpool and they'll be able to survive if one of their scumteams is correct. Remember, all we need is 1 person to survive.

I don't like this plan much but I can't quite really articulate why. So I'll have to think about it.

What I don't like though is the idea of winging it d1 and having a bunch of people flee. I don't want too many people using up their flee cards day one.

If I'm understanding some of nacho's plans from last night, I think I'd prefer to confirm a townie day one actually rather than try to catch scum.

I think I'm finally really grasping the setup though so I'll come back to this later.

[Infinity 324]

I think d1 is the best time to use flees.

[Imperium]

I'm loathe to continue quote stripe interactions, but no probably can't give you an example right off the top of my head. There was a mini normal game by empire - Star Wars something, his most recent one, where someone hated my opening. Probably true for most of empire's games actually. I seem to remember getting crap. Other games, eh, I've played well over a hundred games one multiple forums, I'd like to keep most of them in my head but my memory's not that great. General sentiment is there though. Usually there are a bunch of people who've played with me that go, eh that's just Tammy dude.

Ah I think you're reading too much into my interaction with you or at least misreading my motivations, which is normal even people who've played with me forever get it completely wrong why I'm doing what I'm doing. When I say you'll drop the read it isn't me going you're town you'll drop the read, it's more a way for me to interact with you. I don't have a read on anyone yet; I rarely do this early in the game. I do believe if you are town, you'll see I'm town. I believe that of most people. I think the only people who have kept scum reads on me longer than normal have been new people who usually scum read me for weird reasons and random people here and there. AVox, where has he been?, always reads me as scum no matter what if I'm town, and I've had the occasional tunneler. Sometimes scum tunnel on me to do that why would I tunnel on universal town read thing and for other reasons I won't say because I don't want anyone getting any ideas, but those are fewer and far between. I guess I could one day lose my town mojo, but I hope that's not this game it would just be too sad.

Mostly I wanted to see your reaction and if it could give me an early leaning read on you. You thinking I'm scum is the most interesting thing that's happened this game save the setup talk and I, being quite self-absorbed, have a tendency to interact with and try to sort people who are poking at me and scum reading me.

[reso]

I think d1 is the best time to use flees.

This is an Insta-distrust to me.


Why? The following is from the Predict the Flip setup thread, which cfj has stated that this game is mathematically equivalent to in the Micro Queue.

So I run a traditional gaming club at my university, and we just started meeting again for the semester. We play werewolf all the time, and only had 11 people last night which is a bit small, so I thought, hey, why not try out this setup?


We had eight townies and two goons.

The first round, they singled out an obvtown, and everyone predicted her town, nobody jokered.
Then they decided to have two people per round joker or predict something that the majority doesn't predict, in case they're wrong. People just jokered.
Town wasted several jokers, and the group kept picking townies to flip
Then we lost half of the town at once when they predicted a scum flip incorrectly.

We're down to four players, and they have six people left to flip. They pick the scum, one of them guesses correctly (thinking he was wrong, but splitting the numbers just in case), and he was left the only living player.
He had four other players left to flip, and basically needed to guess which one of them was scum. He guessed two town correctly, then guessed town on the remaining scum, and lost.

It was super cool. Players were pretty confused about the whole thing for a while, and since they're mostly familiar with role madness, I got a lot of people asking "So how do we find out who the werewolves are?" So my group probably wasn't going to play it the best, but the scum did a good job.

It's scum that convinced people to waste their jokers early, and intentionally picked off townies early.

Very fun game. Very excited to play it here.

So yeah, Infinity insta-distrust.

[Imperium]

I think d1 is the best time to use flees.

Could be I guess, something I want to think about. I just don't like the idea of using the get out of jail free card so soon.

If we take our time, there's no reason we can't get a solid town read confirmed day one and have the majority of the town holding onto that safety net.