Micro 676: Bill Wurtz Mafia (Game Over)

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implosion
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Post Post #100  (ISO)  » Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:17 am

Transcend, was there any particular reason you chose this game to debut this new methodology?
When did you decide you'd be playing this game in this way? Right before making post 49?

I'm having a bit of trouble seeing this whole spiel as intellectually genuine; the reasoning in looks suspiciously identical to typical reasoning with the one smallish added wrinkle that you ignore me and kain because you think the two of us aren't a team. Apart from that it's entirely PoE. In fact that too is PoE. As far as I can tell this is pretty much the same old reasoning that mafia players typically used but dressed up with some fancy hats. And it feels somewhat manufactured.
Our heads are just houses
Without enough windows
They say you hear human voices
But they're only echoes

Parama
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Post Post #101  (ISO)  » Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:18 am

In post 88, implosion wrote:
In post 87, Parama wrote:(keep your posts as short as the average bill wurtz video, is all i'm saying)

This is fine but I would also prefer avoiding more than, oh, let's go with octuple-posts.

much easier to pick out and reply to a single post & it's really just a mental thing. reading a few sentences and moving onto the next few is a lot easier with a lot of whitespace between them
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Post Post #102  (ISO)  » Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:21 am

In post 91, Morning Tweet wrote:
In post 84, Parama wrote:for the record: i like stormcloud changing his mind on CK, even if i don't agree with it. (it comes down to a theory difference as far as i see, and yes comm is completely wrong but it doesn't feel ill-intentioned)
what i dislike is Transcend trying to paint it as a stretch for an opportunistic vote.
This interests me more than Kain's Comm vote.. what would you say is opportunistic about it?

comm had attracted a decent number of townreads by that time and so someone going after him makes for an easy target
plus calling something a stretch is an easy way to avoid providing any real argument tbh
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Post Post #103  (ISO)  » Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:22 am

In post 93, Transcend wrote:Parama in terms of the "opportunism" between implo/Kain, I think town!Kain is much more likely to make a bad vote like that than town!implo

but have you at all read the posts in context

could've been the same post as but kain didn't vote until after implosion did
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Post Post #104  (ISO)  » Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:24 am

also gonna outright say this:
transcend your method is stupid. instead of trying to find scumteams you need to be finding scum players.
trying to poe everything down, especially this early on day 1, is absolute nonsense
why is gamma scum, and don't mention potential partners at all. until we have flipped scum i don't give a damn about association tells. you don't lynch the first scum based on association tells.
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Post Post #105  (ISO)  » Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:56 am

don't tell me how to live my life
"The first time I played Transcendscum he acted powertown and he and bacde led me like a collared sex slave in Rotterdam" - Zachstralkita
"Transcend. Well done. You wade through oceans of shitposts and even shittier logic to find the pearl of the lying scumfucks. Good job." - DiamondSentinel

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Post Post #106  (ISO)  » Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:57 am

im not trying to boil down the scum team today, if i did that, it would be damn good on my behalf
"The first time I played Transcendscum he acted powertown and he and bacde led me like a collared sex slave in Rotterdam" - Zachstralkita
"Transcend. Well done. You wade through oceans of shitposts and even shittier logic to find the pearl of the lying scumfucks. Good job." - DiamondSentinel

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Post Post #107  (ISO)  » Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:01 am

if you townread someone that eliminates 7 possible teams, shoul you be correct. the more you townread people, the more you eliminate teams. in the past, i haven't been exactly great at nabbing the scum, but my townreads have been on point. so putting all the non townreads into a cluster and assessing possible outcomes is what i'm doing. if you wanna lynch me for it, then fine. i'll toy with it some other game. truthfully, i like where i'm getting with this.
"The first time I played Transcendscum he acted powertown and he and bacde led me like a collared sex slave in Rotterdam" - Zachstralkita
"Transcend. Well done. You wade through oceans of shitposts and even shittier logic to find the pearl of the lying scumfucks. Good job." - DiamondSentinel

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Post Post #108  (ISO)  » Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:03 am

In post 104, Parama wrote:why is gamma scum,


i didn't say i FOSed him. Syr/Storm have been a bit towny though and if all my logic I've made thus far is correct, he is scum. Which is why I placed a vote on him so I can see how he reacts to it, and if I want to lynch Syr/Storm over him or not.

Truthfully, Gamma is a dead null right now, but by POE he's scum. I want him to change my mind.
"The first time I played Transcendscum he acted powertown and he and bacde led me like a collared sex slave in Rotterdam" - Zachstralkita
"Transcend. Well done. You wade through oceans of shitposts and even shittier logic to find the pearl of the lying scumfucks. Good job." - DiamondSentinel

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Post Post #109  (ISO)  » Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:08 am

In post 100, implosion wrote:Transcend, was there any particular reason you chose this game to debut this new methodology?

When did you decide you'd be playing this game in this way? Right before making post 49?


this methodology has not debuted in this game, however this is th first time i'm using it from the get-go. it's only recent logic i've created, but i'm doing this from the get-go, because micros have less slots than all other lobbies. doing this in say, a large normal, would be suicide.

i actually did decide to do it right before post 49 as i had a pretty strong tr on comm, and a few team reads i wanted to eliminate.

like i said, my mission isn't to deduce the scum team right now, it's just to decide what the odds are of x being scum if y is true, voting there if the odds are true, and seeing if it takes me to the promised land or not.
"The first time I played Transcendscum he acted powertown and he and bacde led me like a collared sex slave in Rotterdam" - Zachstralkita
"Transcend. Well done. You wade through oceans of shitposts and even shittier logic to find the pearl of the lying scumfucks. Good job." - DiamondSentinel

CommKnight
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Post Post #110  (ISO)  » Thu Jan 12, 2017 7:07 am

Parama and Transcend seem to have a problem with putting all their thoughts into one post. I can understand 2 posts together, but 5-7 in a row of 2-3 sentences? I'm sorry, but continue to say you won't read walls of text, I won't read pages of fluff posts that could've all been put into a single post and shortened the amount of pages so far.

Anyway, that's just a pet peeve of multi-posts. Onto some reads since others have become active. Cloud is quick to assume I'm a new player. New to this site, yes, other than treating days differently than other places, minds do not so easily change nor does the internal knowledge of being mafia change how people act across the game. Opportunistic votes are inherently scum tells. Switching a vote without explaining reasoning is something a scum easily slips up. Why bother explaining it right away? They just want town dead. Townies can make this mistake, but it is mostly overlooked by scum. It's a mentality pattern that you'll notice. Look at your own vote on me, you explained it out, whether right or wrong, you analyzed the situation in your own mind and came to a conclusion that you shared publicly. Reread page 1 and consider that Implosion never put much thought into the unvote and vote of myself. Once called out upon it, he is easily able to make something up.

Now I don't "permanently" scum read him, but I have said it's not moving until we get a claim.

To answer Morning Tweet, you're right for pointing out that mafia know the alignments (barring possibility for 3rd party interference). However, we're not looking to put everything on the table for them. We're looking for a piece of the puzzle to work with. Now, I'm not sure about you fellas, but a puzzle cannot be completed blind with no pieces set on the table. But with a piece given to us to work with for a day and night phase, we can feel out around the edges of that piece and build upon what the full picture may look like and our PRs can go into the night with something to work with.

Now, Syrana. This is a person of interest. I think everyone has contributed *something*. Syrana has yet to do so. I think his theme song is "We all live on the yellow SCUM-marine". FOS placed for sure. But as I've said, Implosions initial uncaring to give a reason for his unvote and vote is still on a higher standing for now. As to why anyone would town read him already is beyond me.

The only 2 people I town read are Kain and Cloud. Rest can easily fake their "reads" at this point.

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Post Post #111  (ISO)  » Thu Jan 12, 2017 7:59 am

@Comm
I saw implosion's initial vote for you as an attempt to generate discussion - it was the first non-RVS vote. I view generating discussion as generally town motivated. I agree that switching a vote with no reasoning at all is generally a scummy move, but I'd say during RVS/on page one that it's far less so, and in this case I saw it as town trying to get a reaction out of you. If he had explained his reasoning for that move right in that post, he wouldn't have gotten the same reaction from you.
Also, although I know you hold the view that unvoting means no claim and is therefore anti-town, perhaps consider that implosion disagrees with the idea of early claiming and therefore from his point of view, changing his vote to someone he views as more scummy is instead the best way to generate town discussion. Even if you disagree with him on the meta, it's still possible for his actions to be town motivated (just as several people here disagree with your meta, but town read you).

Have you ever played an all-vanilla game, where there are no claims? Just curious.

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Post Post #112  (ISO)  » Thu Jan 12, 2017 8:07 am

Although I do think you're tunneling a little bit on implosion, I could be accused of the same regarding you, and your latest post has put you in more of a town direction for me.

I like the suspicions everyone is having regarding KT and I would like to hear his explanation for his late vote on CK. Rereading, it does seem a little opportunistic, but the thing that's been preventing me from completely scumreading him for it is that I don't think scum would be that obvious. But I'd like to hear KT's explanation.

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Post Post #113  (ISO)  » Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:31 am

I AM NOT A SUSPICIOUS MAN,, COMMKNIGHT IS,,

if i were being OPPORTUNISTIC about voting him i will have TAKEN IT OFF by now,, i'm not sure how you can generalize my action as OPPORTUNISTIC like this given that 1) my vote was on the first page of RVS, so that can't be opportunism in itself and 2) the only opportunism you can be referring to hence is the fact that my vote has remained on COMMKNIGHT but how is it opportunistic if nobody else is voting him,,

not sure what you're calling a "late vote" when it's on the first page of the game neither,, sounds like you are the one being opportunistic to KAIN TEPES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I AM KAIN TEPES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"I am afraid of SAYING HIS NAME!!!!" - Toto
"why be a better mafia player, when you can be a better KAIN TEPES???" - Vi

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Post Post #114  (ISO)  » Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:33 am

In post 110, CommKnight wrote:Parama and Transcend seem to have a problem with putting all their thoughts into one post. I can understand 2 posts together, but 5-7 in a row of 2-3 sentences? I'm sorry, but continue to say you won't read walls of text, I won't read pages of fluff posts that could've all been put into a single post and shortened the amount of pages so far.

Anyway, that's just a pet peeve of multi-posts. Onto some reads since others have become active. Cloud is quick to assume I'm a new player. New to this site, yes, other than treating days differently than other places, minds do not so easily change nor does the internal knowledge of being mafia change how people act across the game. Opportunistic votes are inherently scum tells. Switching a vote without explaining reasoning is something a scum easily slips up. Why bother explaining it right away? They just want town dead. Townies can make this mistake, but it is mostly overlooked by scum. It's a mentality pattern that you'll notice. Look at your own vote on me, you explained it out, whether right or wrong, you analyzed the situation in your own mind and came to a conclusion that you shared publicly. Reread page 1 and consider that Implosion never put much thought into the unvote and vote of myself. Once called out upon it, he is easily able to make something up.

Now I don't "permanently" scum read him, but I have said it's not moving until we get a claim.

To answer Morning Tweet, you're right for pointing out that mafia know the alignments (barring possibility for 3rd party interference). However, we're not looking to put everything on the table for them. We're looking for a piece of the puzzle to work with. Now, I'm not sure about you fellas, but a puzzle cannot be completed blind with no pieces set on the table. But with a piece given to us to work with for a day and night phase, we can feel out around the edges of that piece and build upon what the full picture may look like and our PRs can go into the night with something to work with.

Now, Syrana. This is a person of interest. I think everyone has contributed *something*. Syrana has yet to do so. I think his theme song is "We all live on the yellow SCUM-marine". FOS placed for sure. But as I've said, Implosions initial uncaring to give a reason for his unvote and vote is still on a higher standing for now. As to why anyone would town read him already is beyond me.


actually now that i see this post,, seems more like CommKnight is just genuine newbie town trying to solve the game, he just has a different style to it that can be seen as scummy

VOTE: Stormcloud for accusing KAIN TEPES OF OPPORTUNISTIC VOTING!!!!!!!

like c'mon, the way you phrased it in your latest post is just too scummy. you clearly want to place a vote on me and argue against me, but due to scummy tentativeness you try to phrase it as "everyone else's suspicion of me" instead of your own,, and then say "maybe scum won't be that obvious"..... it's a lot of text, stormcloud,, and it's all INFORMATION WITHOUT ANALYSIS

SCUM DETECTED!!!!!!!!!!
I AM KAIN TEPES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"I am afraid of SAYING HIS NAME!!!!" - Toto
"why be a better mafia player, when you can be a better KAIN TEPES???" - Vi

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Post Post #115  (ISO)  » Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:36 am

In post 112, Stormcloud wrote:Although I do think you're tunneling a little bit on implosion, I could be accused of the same regarding you, and your latest post has put you in more of a town direction for me.

I like the suspicions everyone is having regarding KT and I would like to hear his explanation for his late vote on CK. Rereading, it does seem a little opportunistic, but the thing that's been preventing me from completely scumreading him for it is that I don't think scum would be that obvious. But I'd like to hear KT's explanation.


just look at the bolded text and tell me if that doesn't sound scummy as SCUM, guys

"suspicions everyone is having regarding KT" -- i.e. Stormcloud scum is trying to cast shade on me, but pretending someone else is doing it so he doesn't have to take responsibility/draw less attention,,

"thing that's been preventing me from completely scumreading him for it is that I don't think scum would be that obvious" -- if Stormcloud were already going to "completely scumread" me, this is a dumb reason for NOT scumreading me. Seems more like scum, once again, trying to cast shade on me while saying 'wooooah i never SAID he was definitely scum,, i mean scum would not be so obvious right"

i.e. Stormcloud is VERY obviously trying to cast shade and hopefully get a MISLYNCH on me,, and then disclaim responsibility for it

SCUM BEHAVIOR DETECTED
I AM KAIN TEPES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"I am afraid of SAYING HIS NAME!!!!" - Toto
"why be a better mafia player, when you can be a better KAIN TEPES???" - Vi

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Post Post #116  (ISO)  » Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:44 am

How do you know my tentativeness is scummy rather than towny? I feel I've been pretty tentative the whole game, not really having solid reads. I know that's a traditional scum tell, but it's what I'm honestly feeling. I don't know who to read as scum at this point. You're maybe the closest thing I have to a scumread, but I'm not feeling confident enough to move my vote right now.

You still never explained why you posted 13 (fluff) and then after that 15 (where you started your argument with CK). It could be as simple as you deciding to post some fluff and then rereading the thread a few minutes later and noticing CK's post and then making post 15, but you avoiding explaining and getting defensive is what's confusing me here.

I'm not looking to lynch you right here and now, I'm just trying to figure out your alignment and I want more information about what you're thinking.

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Post Post #117  (ISO)  » Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:49 am

I have been burned in the past by seeing obvious scummy behavior and tunneling on that person way too hard - then they turn out to be town and I've not only pushed a mislynch, but everyone suspects me for pushing that mislynch and we end up with two mislynches because of it. I think it's perfectly normal for town to be paranoid about reading someone as heavily scummy when it seems too easy and obvious to be true.

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Post Post #118  (ISO)  » Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:53 am

If you do get lynched and I was part of your wagon, I'll take responsibility. Anyone who votes on a wagon is responsible for the lynch. All I said in 112 was that I found those posts odd (like others here) and I (like them) wanted an explanation, but instead of giving one you got very defensive.

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Post Post #119  (ISO)  » Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:56 am

In post 111, Stormcloud wrote:Have you ever played an all-vanilla game, where there are no claims? Just curious.


I have once. Mafia slipped up and claimed a power role when it became evident there were none. As to this being the same as that. You'll never know unless you get some claims. You'll think a power role might be collecting information when in fact we have none if we leave roles completely to the unknown.

For balance reasons, I'm willing to place my bet on there being either 2 town PR's and a mafia PR or if it really is all VT, then there is definitely a 3rd party. As 2 mafia in a 7 VT vs 2 would be a bit unfair for them and 3 mafia vs 6 VT would be unfair to us. It's just at that number where a PR or 3rd party must be active to balance things out. Which in games with a Neutral 3rd party (one who can win with any) or who's win conditions do not stop town's win conditions, I do not mind aiding by the way. Town of Salem which people seem to keep pinning me to (even though it's only one medium I play on... hah... medium... curse...), people on there are rather... ignorant. For example, if we have a known executioner and their target is a useless role, I'm willing to sacrifice a useless role to gain a non-killable townie (they would've won so no reason to side with mafia and counts as a confirmed vote against them for LYLO). Even survivors, who can vest and when mixed with a transporter can create a movable shield for town. However, in RT mafia, most players are unable to think that critically and just see "not town" as inherently bad. For those who've played the game and know the Jester role, I've managed to help a Jester win while getting a mafia killed. Mafia were tricking town, but I whispered the Jester to kill a certain somebody if he guiltied him. Well, I managed to get mafia to guilty him and got 2 birds with one stone.

But enough about my views of 3rd party neutrals/using 3rd parties to counter Mafia. There's not even a confirmed 3rd party active in this game as of yet.

Back to Implosion. You view his unvote and vote as a discussion generation. However, if you can move past your projection unto him of your own alignment and motives and see that he did not explain why he added nothing to his unvote and vote. He claims it's to "generate healthy discussion" (after the fact), however, how can a healthy discussion be generated from nothing of substance in the vote? If I had not analyzed that lack of substance as scummy, there would've been no healthy discussion generated at all from it. Objectively speaking, everything seems to conveniently be explained well after the fact. But in that moment, he had not contributed anything. In fact if you isolate his username in the thread, you can see that between his first and second post, he said nothing at all. Then let's say it was his intention for the sake of seeing it from another light. He is still able to stay out of the main spot light unless someone (such as myself) begin picking on him constantly. Because there is nothing from him to arouse more eyes other than those looking closely at the posts themselves.

In your own words Cloud, I see you as a "misguided" townie. You cannot see how he has attempted to keep himself out of the center of attention through simple actions. Further ignoring it because it's page 1. Some of the earliest actions are better give aways than when someone has time to establish the vibe of the town for the match.

Fastposted by Kain 3 times.

Someone needs to take a chill pill and slow down. More people are town reading you than scum reading you currently. Also there we go again with assuming I'm a noob. Sure, I've been away from forum mafia for a year, but I'm in no way "new". In total, I have around 50 forum games under my belt with moderator experience of 6. None on this site mind you, but it's still experience.

Do not let the 'noobiness' of my methods fool you. It's been the bane of many mafia. (As for games where I played mafiaso, the stuff I can come up with is already messing with your heads as town, the stuff I come up with as mafia, well.. I once convinced town I was a Van Helsing type character chasing after a Werewolf and a Vampire. The Werewolf we knew was there because of night immunity, once he was lynched, the town was frantically searching for a vampire while I was an investigative immune mafia). Needless to say, the methods work as town, especially by the later days. If mafia are smart, they'll probably off me tonight or tomorrow night. It gets much more insane and dangerous for them the less players that are left in the game. Not only that, but as you've seen, already multiple people townread me, and regardless as to me being correct or incorrect at the current moment about my read, I become harder to lynch for them when they can't get the numbers to do so.

Now why am I explaining the above? Simple. WIFOM. Am I sweet or am I poisonous? Something they'll have to decide fairly quickly.

Fastposted 3 more times.

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Post Post #120  (ISO)  » Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:06 am

In post 119, CommKnight wrote:Someone needs to take a chill pill and slow down. More people are town reading you than scum reading you currently.


i don't care whether people are townreading or scumreading me,, i just know that cloud is scummy af
I AM KAIN TEPES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"I am afraid of SAYING HIS NAME!!!!" - Toto
"why be a better mafia player, when you can be a better KAIN TEPES???" - Vi

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Post Post #121  (ISO)  » Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:07 am

In post 116, Stormcloud wrote:How do you know my tentativeness is scummy rather than towny? I feel I've been pretty tentative the whole game, not really having solid reads. I know that's a traditional scum tell, but it's what I'm honestly feeling. I don't know who to read as scum at this point. You're maybe the closest thing I have to a scumread, but I'm not feeling confident enough to move my vote right now.

You still never explained why you posted 13 (fluff) and then after that 15 (where you started your argument with CK). It could be as simple as you deciding to post some fluff and then rereading the thread a few minutes later and noticing CK's post and then making post 15, but you avoiding explaining and getting defensive is what's confusing me here.

I'm not looking to lynch you right here and now, I'm just trying to figure out your alignment and I want more information about what you're thinking.

In post 117, Stormcloud wrote:I have been burned in the past by seeing obvious scummy behavior and tunneling on that person way too hard - then they turn out to be town and I've not only pushed a mislynch, but everyone suspects me for pushing that mislynch and we end up with two mislynches because of it. I think it's perfectly normal for town to be paranoid about reading someone as heavily scummy when it seems too easy and obvious to be true.

In post 118, Stormcloud wrote:If you do get lynched and I was part of your wagon, I'll take responsibility. Anyone who votes on a wagon is responsible for the lynch. All I said in 112 was that I found those posts odd (like others here) and I (like them) wanted an explanation, but instead of giving one you got very defensive.

okay, tentativeness is one thing - saying "everyone is suspicious of Kain" isn't when nobody is suspicious of me other than you,,

it sounds like you are just pushing responsibility to other, nonexistent people
I AM KAIN TEPES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"I am afraid of SAYING HIS NAME!!!!" - Toto
"why be a better mafia player, when you can be a better KAIN TEPES???" - Vi

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Post Post #122  (ISO)  » Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:08 am

KAIN TEPES HAS DISCOVERED SCUM,,!!!!!!!!!!
I AM KAIN TEPES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"I am afraid of SAYING HIS NAME!!!!" - Toto
"why be a better mafia player, when you can be a better KAIN TEPES???" - Vi

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Post Post #123  (ISO)  » Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:11 am

@Comm I like what implosion's had to say. He's not my strongest town read by a long shot but I just think our views on the game are so different that neither of us is likely to convince the other of what implosion's alignment is. We could argue for the rest of Day 1 and I don't think either of us would change our read on him, so I don't see the value in continuing that discussion. I understand why you're scumreading him, but I just don't agree with it.

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Post Post #124  (ISO)  » Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:17 am

In post 35, implosion wrote:
I have a somewhat scummy first impression of Kain. The Comm vote looks somewhat awkward/opportunistic simply by virtue of only happening after mine, yet having reasoning that was already available when Kain made post . jumps to conclusions, accusing Comm of refusing to take his vote off and tunneling pretty shortly after the vote on Transcend. It looks like jumping on the easy target. The last line of reads as trying to keep options open to switch to a wagon on me if Comm starts being read as town.

Unvote
VOTE: Kain

In post 74, Syryana wrote:Kain read deteriorated somewhat. Still like Comm.

In post 103, Parama wrote:
In post 93, Transcend wrote:Parama in terms of the "opportunism" between implo/Kain, I think town!Kain is much more likely to make a bad vote like that than town!implo

but have you at all read the posts in context

could've been the same post as but kain didn't vote until after implosion did


These are the others who seemed to be at least a little suspicious of you. I agree with their suspicions. I was being pretty liberal when I said everyone - it's definitely not everyone, but it is some people I am at least lightly townreading right now.

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