Micro 735: Greater Idea (Day 2 Begins)

[Keychain]

I disagree. I think most people looked at it with logic. Believing it doesn't make it more logical. Claims in this game are kind of meh for preventing a lynch.

That's me for now. There's already too much material for the other three to catch up on, and I need to reread day 1. Particularly that last stretch, which could not have happened at a worse time for me.

[Keychain]

Srceenplay -

Werewolf Roleblocker

Hahaha. I know I said I'm done for tonight but I just found this and it's beautiful.

Werewolf roleblocker was discarded by Srceenplay.
There's only one in the deck.
No one else has cause to roleblock a seer, and I can't find any other roles that might have caused a similar result.

Vote Chickadee.

[Keychain]

oh wait - jailkeeper.

Never mind.

[Creature]

WhyMafia seems like a good lynch today.

[Creature]

He didn't seem to care about yesterday's deadline.

[WhyMafia]

I had something pop up IRL right before deadline. I'm sorry about that. But Creature, that's a very weak reason to vote someone in a game where this lynch is vital.

[WhyMafia]

I feel as if either Chick or Vax should be the lynch

[WhyMafia]

Keychain is town

Creature and Mulch I am currently iffy about

[Chickadee]

He didn't seem to care about yesterday's deadline.

I agree that WhyMafia is a good lynch today. My preferred lynch.

But your reasoning is awful.

Please let me keep town reading you

[Chickadee]

I disagree. I think most people looked at it with logic. Believing it doesn't make it more logical. Claims in this game are kind of meh for preventing a lynch.

That's me for now. There's already too much material for the other three to catch up on, and I need to reread day 1. Particularly that last stretch, which could not have happened at a worse time for me.

I realyl dont get the feeling that most people looked at it with logic. If they did, they surely didn't comment to show it. Mulch at the very least was pretty vocal saying it's unverifiable and to lynch me anyway. That's not exactly logical. Lots of roles are unverifiable. Yours is equally unverifiable. Even more so than mine if theres no doctor.

[Mulch]

That's not exactly logical

Yes it is LMAO you picked one of the easiest claims in the game, if you had said dayvig or vig or something verifiable that you coulden't skate on by for long then I would be much less inclined to lynch u

[Creature]

He didn't seem to care about yesterday's deadline.

I agree that WhyMafia is a good lynch today. My preferred lynch.

But your reasoning is awful.

Please let me keep town reading you

Check EoD1. Who seemed desperate because of deadline?

[Creature]

*genuinely desperate

[Keychain]

@Chick:

I'm a Town Seer, I can see if people are werewolves or not.

So you either a seer or a wolf. If you were any other scummy alignment this claim puts you out there too much to get killed by a wolf (if they exist).

I say we keep her alive and see what kind of NK's we got. Do NK's have flavor attached to them? If wolves are out there they will want her dead, if shes alive and there is wolf NK flavor then kill her.

Holy cow, you thought this was logical?
He wanted to keep you alive based on the very odd assumption that there would be NK flavour, which turned out to be untrue and therefore useless.
Again - seemed like he was trying to keep you alive, rather than thinking about it.

It is logical to still want to lynch you after your claim, not sure why you think it's not.
Look at both possibilities.
If you are a seer and you get lynched, we lose a seer, which is bad but isn't crippling to town. If you are scum, we lynch scum. The second possibility was likely enough and the benefits were good enough to outweigh the risk of the first one. I said this after your claim, I'm not just making it up now. Do you not consider risk/benefit analysis to be logical?

Or are you just going with the assumption that anyone who disbelieved your claim is scum and anyone who believed it is town? Because I'm sorry, but that's what it looks like.


@Creature:

Check EoD1. Who seemed desperate because of deadline?

*genuinely desperate

Top of my head - vonflare, Mulch and Chickadee. Sparkles seemed pretty calm iirc, trying to get out his case on Mulch. Where are you going with this?


@WM:

Keychain is town

Creature and Mulch I am currently iffy about

I like you for town as well right now, though that's without analysing end of day in great detail, and it seems like we're mostly on the same page with reads. Why Mulch though?

And why do you want to lynch Chick or Vax? I'd much prefer Chick. I can come up with a formal case on her if you like.


We only have five working votes and it still takes four to lynch, so we're pretty much going to have to come to consensus on any lynch that isn't Mulch (one person can not vote him and we can still get a majority, so consensus not required). Any scum with partners are going to easily be able to prevent each other's lynch by simply not voting.

[Creature]

Where are you going with this?

Town most likely wouldn't want a nolynch.

Scum at most would be worried if they or their partner is going to be deadline lynched.

[Chickadee]

Or are you just going with the assumption that anyone who disbelieved your claim is scum and anyone who believed it is town? Because I'm sorry, but that's what it looks like.

It's not about not believing the claim, it's that you wanted to lynch me before the claim, and instead of looking at it and questioning, the game pretty much said "Yeah nah...lynch it anyways." That's a huge problem on this site. People make a big fuss about not lynching without claims, but by the point it's acceptable to claim, people are already set in the lynch and committed to it. Claims are worth nothing.


And I feel fine where my vote is right now. Why do you have WhyMafia as town?

[Keychain]

I've said a couple of times (you make me repeat myself a lot, I notice, are you even reading my posts?) - most claims are worth nothing

in this game

, since the setup is randomised. It's still important to ask - for Sparkles it would have given him the opportunity to reveal, for example - but I considered your claim, as I said, and came to the same conclusion I had before via the reasoning that you are ignoring. Did you consider my claim? Why did you decide it didn't matter? D'ya think there might be some kind of, I don't know,

parallel

there?


I townread WhyMafia because I spent time poking at him and asking him questions and he reacted in a way that seemed like he was investigating and trying to find answers. It's not ironclad, but it's the strongest I've got right now and I absolutely don't think he should be the lynch for today.

His absence near deadline means nothing - being unavailable for the hours before deadline is not a scumtell.


I

am

going to write up a case on you. You are actively ignoring things and your reads are flimsy as all hell until there's a wagon being pushed by scum for you to jump onto. I asked you for reads near the end of day and it was a whole lot of nulls and leans, which suddenly magically became dead solid after you got pressured. Not to mention all the reasons I wanted you lynched D1.

It's going to be a wall, but hopefully it will be worth it. Might take me a bit though.

[Keychain]

And voila, a case on Chickadee! For people who hate reading (Creature, Mulch...), there's a tl;dr at the bottom. But please do read it. I've spoilered quotes to make it easier. It's long but that's because there's so many reasons to scumread her.


One of Chickadee's early reads was Creature, based on his activity. Note that she said it was an initial read - I said that I'd like to see how it evolved. Spoiler alert: it hasn't. Not. One. Bit. She also says not to hold her to it. Like... why? It was obviously strong enough to carry her this far.

Spoiler:

Chickadee, could you explain your Creature townread?

Sure

It admittedly is not a strong town read, and is mostly based on play style, so don't hold me to this.

From my experience playing with creature, he hates rolling scum and is disinterested. Given the choice, as he very well could have been in this set-up, I believe he'd pick town. He's active in the game so far which is indicative of town!Creature. Just my initial observation.

She ignored Kairyuu's post, despite saying earlier that there wasn't much going on. That is not how you find scum.

Spoiler:

no, this happens in every game of great idea and its variants. someone makes a giant wall of text explaining the probability of each role corresponding to each person, ultimately resulting in no important information due to WIFOM.

Why I was just content to ignore it.

@Chickadee: At the time of post 21, how was Keychain an easy target to vote to make it appear as if one was scumhunting? From my perspective the wagon was baseless and random.

At the time there wasn't much of significance going on, and I thought both were easy targets since they were mainly the only ones in the game at that point.

She continues saying that while random is not always random (I strongly agree), she wouldn't speculate on it because it wouldn't go anywhere. Another instance of her actively not using the content available to her.

Spoiler:

I understand that Keychain was an easy wagon to hop on at the time, but how would that make it appear as if the voter was scumhunting? To me, a vote on a random wagon is just a vote on a random wagon.

Is anything really random though? A choice was still made. It could mean nothing, or it could mean something. I don't really care to speculate not this further because I don't think it's going to get us anywhere at this moment. Maybe later for associations.

Finally she sees something worth commenting on, over a hundred posts into the game, and it's my push on WhyMafia. She sees it as a defense of Kairyuu, but it's still the only thing she's actually said apart from that initial meta townread of Creature that has done anything to advance the game.

Spoiler:

I'm not liking Keychain's defense of Kairyuu.

@Keychain - why are you jumping to defend them?

Then she goes back to avoiding doing anything - not only failing to answer a reasonably simple question because it was boring to her, but then apparently she was bothered by me scumhunting without someone prodding me into doing it.

Spoiler:

You've entirely avoided my actual question to focus on an opinion I expressed alongside it. Once again, how would adding to Keychain's wagon at the time make a player appear to be scumhunting? This is the crux of my issue with your post.

This line of inquiry just doesn't interest me. I'm having trouble staying focused on it, because it bores me so much.

What am I being defended from precisely? WhyMafia wasn't even addressing me. He asked me a question yesterday, which I also answered yesterday, and was then addressing Vax today.

My point was really more that Keychain hadn't been addressed at all.

So I tried to get something out of her and she spits out a couple of reads that have no basis, except that her "initial observation" on Creature hasn't gone anywhere. She thinks I'm scum, presumably for defending Kairyuu, because that's the only reason she ever suggested for me being "off". And she doesn't want to be rushed. So she could maybe... sit back and continue not scumhunting?

Spoiler:

But in case that's why you've been standing off to one side, I'll address you:
You are not voting anyone currently, and you've also never voted anyone, and you also haven't really taken too much of a stance at all and we're more than halfway through the day. We need a lynch. Who is your top pick for scum, Chick? What about town?

I tend to be a cautious voter. I vote when I'm ready, so don't rush me.
I'm TRing Creature and Vonflare and have a town lean on Screenplay.
For scum, I would be fine with you Keychain, you've been kind of off to me so far. Not seeing anything real solid yet.

After that response, I started scumreading her because of the way she just didn't do anything and was happy to sit back and produce meaningless gut reads on request. I explained this in 186.

Then instead of doing anything, she nitpicks at a technical issue that I didn't mean - that could have been fine except that it had

already been addressed in game

. It didn't help anyone, it didn't clear anything up, it was just a way to say something. She says it's IRL issues that have kept her away. That's fine. But she didn't change anything after this.
She also says she's already talked about her townread on Creature - meaning that it was still riding on that weak "initial observation", based on activity. And again the idea that you can only scumhunt if you're being asked questions. Why isn't she asking any questions? Why isn't she trying to get reads?

Spoiler:

I'll accept that you don't vote needlessly, but I've been trying to generate some activity so I can get reads. I find it suspect that you haven't gotten anything solid out of the content it's produced, and even more so that you haven't done a lot to get something solid. Town is trying to find the answer.

Scum already knows

. It's scummy that you aren't trying to sort.
Can you elaborate on "kind of off"? What is your townread of Creature based on?

It's been a kind of crazy week for me. I was swamped at work, then quit my job. Then Saturdays are always bad for me because I have standing plans that happen every single week. And I've had some person IRL stuff going on that has been more pressing than this game. Later today I have to work my other job (now my only job). So yea, I haven't been here much. That will change starting tomorrow (real life day).

To the bolded. No, they my not. And they don't know if they know. Because this set up might very well be multi ball, and no one knows wether it is or not until we start seeing flips. So you're wrong there.

I've talked about my town read on creature. I feel like the only questions being asked of me are things I've already answered.

Chickadee reads through the game! And the only thing she finds starts from a joke in post 19! Vax later disputes this in post 213. It's a huge reach, completely nonsensical, and it's bizarre that the strongest basis she has for a scumread were these early interactions.

Spoiler:

Naw, Vonfalre is town, look at his discard.

Reading back through this is pinging me.

Von is not lock town. No one is lock town. Giving up Alien Vanillaizer does not make someone lock town in this set up because you don't know what else they were dealt. It entirely possible his other role was werewolf, or mafia and chose one of those for a better chance at having partners.

Then on page two you ask screenplay for a claim because you want to lynch them.

Then your very next post, you vote Von.

None of this is making sense.

VOTE: vax

When pushed to explain further, she completely backs off, saying her interpretation is just "one possibility".

Spoiler:

One possibility. The whole thing just seems off to me.

The claim

In post 264, Chick claims Seer. She and Vax devise a plan that makes no sense due to WIFOM but has the convenient side-effect of leaving her alive one more day. This plan makes no sense because if there are wolves, they will probably kill her so she will get no result. And like I said, her result is only useful in the case of a guilty, so leaving her alive is not worth it just for that when she can easily fabricate a result.
Also NKs do not have flavour so we would have no idea if the wolves deliberately left her alive. However this is what she keeps referring to when she says Vax was the only one who responded to her claim logically.
She finishes with more nitpicky misunderstandings of what people mean, this time to Mulch's 224. It was clear he wasn't saying there were definitely no wolves, he was saying it wasn't certain they were, yet she nitpicks anyway.

Spoiler:

I'm a Town Seer, I can see if people are werewolves or not.

So you either a seer or a wolf. If you were any other scummy alignment this claim puts you out there too much to get killed by a wolf (if they exist).

I say we keep her alive and see what kind of NK's we got. Do NK's have flavor attached to them? If wolves are out there they will want her dead, if shes alive and there is wolf NK flavor then kill her.

While I agree with this plan, it also sets me up to be a given mislynch. All wolves have to do is keep me alive one night. But it's still a good plan. If I do live, I can at least find out if someone is a wolf or not. It will either be a guilty or a semi-clear on someone.

@mulch, you realize pretty much anything can be in god game due to the set up, right? How are you so confident that here are no wolves?

The level of misunderstanding here is just too staggering to be real. Like what on earth would lead her to believe he was referring to the likelihood of a seer being killed in the game? It's practically a non-sequitur, and far less likely than the assumption that he is talking about how likely it is to be believed.

Spoiler:

the claim is super safe

I disagree.

As it was stated, if there are werewolves, they now want me dead. I've made myself a target.

Oh hey! She quotes my post where I point out why I think we should lynch her despite her claim! So she definitely read it. She then also complains that she's always mislynched D1 and references her wiki page. I check sources. She was mislynched D1 as town in Mini 1904 and... NOWHERE ELSE. This is a total lie.

Spoiler:

Please become surer in the next 7 hours if you can

Could be seer and no wolves yeah. Means there's no way to check if her claim is legit though, like Mulch (I think) said - she can just claim anyone is not a wolf and she's pretty likely to be correct.

If I do live, I can at least find out if someone is a wolf or not. It will either be a guilty or a semi-clear on someone.

It's barely a clear at all. Like a tracker no visit - just because they didn't carry out the kill doesn't mean they're not scum. It's only really useful if it gets a guilty.

I think the chance of her being scum is high, and the potential loss of a seer is not dealbreaking enough to prefer a different lynch.

I did say SEMI-CLEAR. As in, we would know that person isn't a wolf.


Also, after my lynch, I invite you to check out my wiki and look at my town games. It's a grand display of D1 mislynches.

The final hours

I fully expected her to be lynched because we were so close to deadline, and I didn't think I'd be around before then. So I asked for a reads list - if she flipped town, it could help us out. If she flipped scum, it might point to her partners, especially since she'd been so cagey. She does do it.

Spoiler:

I would have much preferred to be any of the scum factions. But I was dealt two town roles.

And doing the work of listing out what I think of all the slots seems really pointless when y'all are going to lynch me anyway. But I'll do it. It's not going to help you, since I don't have much to say.

Please no one hammer me while I fulfill this one request.

I've quoted it before and here it is again - Chickadee's reads, after a week of opportunity to find scum, four hours before deadline. There's barely anything at all. And she is still townreading Creature, still for no reason, still hasn't put any effort into sorting him after her "initial observation". Everything is gut, except where it's null, except for Vax and Mulch. The reasoning for Mulch is ludicrous. The read on Vax is the only one with any substance, though she hadn't thought it worth mentioning up until this point.

Spoiler:

Keychain - scum lean. gut
vonflare - Town feels. I like where he's pushing and questioning things.
Vaxkiller - Possible scum? interactions seem forced and awkward.
Creature - Town - seems invested in the game. This read is mostly gut.
WhyMafia - null
Agent Sparkles - null
Mulch - Might be scum....he used a paragraph...
Srceenplay - town lean? Gut


Like I said, not a lot of help to y'all. My gut does you no good.

I ask more about it and she says he's also got townpoints for trying to stop her lynch. Like I've said before, this is an extremely questionable reason to townread someone. She says he's been looking at her claim rationally, though like I said it isn't at all. She also confirms that Creature is still in her townreads because of that "initial observation".
I keep taking the mickey with the quote marks, and I'm sorry for that, but it's just ridiculous that she would start off saying it was an initial observation and would do literally nothing to either confirm or deny it.

Spoiler:

Creature doesn't seem hugely invested to me but okay.

What do you think about Vax suddenly trying to stop your lynch?

PEdit: case in point...

It does give him some town points in my book.

He's one of the few that have been looking at my claim rationally I think. But there's still a lot of other odd interactions there.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Keychain

@Keychain I get that you don't want a no lynch, and I wouldn't either. I don't think my lynch particularly helps town though. Why are you pushing for my lynch so hard?

She also votes me and asks the incredibly odd question "Why are you pushing for my lynch so hard?" Like I don't know, BECAUSE I THINK YOU'RE SCUM? After all of the pushing and poking and investigating and sorting I had been doing, she was somehow

surprised

that I would be trying to get her lynch through when we had four hours left?
I had also said that I was about to leave, so making her assault on me at that very second was incredibly opportunistic for someone who had been making almost no pushes throughout the whole Day. Vonflare did the same thing, and being in the boat with confirmed scum is not a good place to be. This vote was pure OMGUS - she voted me because I was pushing her, not for any real reason.

While I was gone

Creature appears. Chickadee makes some AtE for him to not vote her.

Spoiler:

But please don't lynch me?

She again refers to her lynchbait history, which as I've said is grossly exaggerated and total AtE.

Spoiler:

Check out my lynchbait history though for real. You will not be disappointed.

She also says the Sparkles stuff - today she claimed she told Mulch Sparkles was town, this is not what happened, but I'm not going to repeat it.

And whoa hey, suddenly a scumread on Mulch that isn't based on his posting style! She thinks that Mulch pushing Sparkles is a tunnel. Chickadee appears to believe that trying to get your scumreads lynched is a scummy thing to do.

Spoiler:

Do you thnk mulch is scum? I mean he has given way more rason that thier roles in previous posts.

He very well could be.

I didn't find anything redeeming about his predecessors play, and here he's been tunneled. And I don't think he has very good reason to be.

Mulch asks good questions. Chickadee makes the bizarre assumption that he tried to get her lynched because of her claim.

Spoiler:

What did you think of his walls, and why do you think I'm tunneled, and more importantly why do you think tunneling is scummy for me? What about my reason do you disagree with?

I think his walls were a way of trying to look busy, and I had him sorted as null. I think you tried to damn me for claiming what I did, and when it didn't work you went back to pushing sparkles.

I never said tunneling is scummy

for you.

I think that your tunneling here its scummy.

However, Keychain is a higher priority for me.

This is reason to become one of her top two scumreads?

Spoiler:

If I die, please pay special attention to Key and Mulch. They're my biggest scum reads right now. They both need to die.

Then Chick steps away from the game and is gone until after deadline.

Day 2

She claims to have investigated me last night. A clear from a seer would have been very cool, since after vonflare's flip I'm pretty much definitely not mafia, but apparently she got roleblocked. I've done more investigation. There's actually two potential roles that had the motive and the ability to cause that result, even though there is no werewolf roleblocker. So it's still technically possible that she could be a seer.

Saying she's an easy mislynch is an odd statement. What in particular tied her to von?

Spoiler:

And after the Von flip, I know I'm an easy push for mislynch.

Then this super odd vote, especially after telling me in post 182 that she tends to be a cautious voter. WhyMafia hadn't even been around at the end of the Day - she had thought that both Mulch and I needed to die! She thinks that WM saying that his read was gut, even though she does the exact same thing, is a better reason to place a vote than either of her top two scumreads at the end of the day?

Spoiler:

VOTE: WhyMafia


Gut

Chick responds to my questioning on contradictions with what she said at the end of the day and comes out with this gem: "I thought your push on me yesterday seemed like the easy place to be pushing."

Mmhmm.
Yes. Yup.
This comment. Just... it makes me want to tear my hair out and write in capital letters.
I voted Chickadee after her behaviour made me think she was scummy. I prodded for reactions. They were scummy. I continued to push. As it got closer to deadline and we still didn't have a lynch, I upped pressure. I literally

made

her the easy place to push.
When I think someone is scum I push them. WhyMafia is an example of what happens when my pushing leads to what I think are townie reactions. If I get scummy reactions, I do this funny thing - I try and get them lynched.
Four hours from deadline, I am not going to switch to trying to lynch someone else when I think I've found scum.

Spoiler:

So Chick

I have some issues with your behaviour at the end of the day.

Agent Sparkles - null

Mulch, stop. Sparkles is not the lynch. Game after game you prove unwilling to work with anyone. You get tunneled. Your reasoning for Sparkles is awful. Just because they discarded a role you would have liked does not mean they picked a scum role.

Stop asking me the same question over and over.

You're tunneled because you refuse to work with anyone else. All you've talked about is how you don't like my claim, and how we should be lynching Sparkles. I've told you why the Sparkles lynch is bad.

Who are you TRing?

Mulch, I told you Sparkles was town. Your logic was extremely flawed.

I ctrl+F'd "sparkles".

Did you get the IC announcement without telling anyone or something? You were null when I asked!

Also why did you become certain I was scum, and why are you not certain today?

I'll go through later to check the timing wrt vonflare's last minute push.

I thought your push on me yesterday seemed like the easy place to be pushing.
And it wasn't so much that I was TRing Sparkles. I wasn't SRing him, and Mulch's logic for SRing him was poor. So there were better lynches to be had yesterday.


I haven't crossed you off my scum list. As far as I'm concerned anyone could still be scum. No one is cleared for me.


_____

So I just went through and looked at Why, to follow up on my gut read. At the beginning of the day he voted for Von. It seemed like an RVS vote. Then the rest of the day he said he's TRing Von based on gut, and when asked about it basically keeps saying "No reason, can't explain, it's just gut" Like it feel like he goes out of his way to assure us it's a gut read.

So. That is enough for now, I think - the most recent stuff I've already pointed out.

tl;dr:
Chick has done no scumhunting all game. She makes no effort to get reads - she still holds the townread on Creature from a weak meta assessment very early on. The reads she does have make no sense and are totally inconsistent. She is not voting Mulch or I, instead going after WhyMafia despite being so set on us being scum end of D1. She blatantly lied about being frequently lynched D1 as an AtE to avoid being lynched - I checked her wiki page and she has been mislynched D1 as town

once.

She joined my wagon at the end of D1, less than four hours before deadline, based on the fact that I was trying to get my top scumread lynched, when, like I said, she did literally no scumhunting all game.

She should 100% be the lynch today.

Chick, one question in particular for you: why do you think you're an easy mislynch after the von flip?

[Mulch]

lmaaao good work key!

[Mulch]

That was one of the most awesomest things I've ever read

[Chickadee]

That was really amusing. Thanks for taking the time to compile it.

[Mulch]

[Mulch]

Are u a jester chic? behonest

[Mulch]

well if u are too bad cause I CANT VOTE

[Chickadee]

I almost kind of want to be lynched now, just to see everyone's reaction after you making that HUGE ASS wall post.














lmao