Micro 747: Setup UPick Mafia

[Aronis]

have a votecount:

Votecount 1.2

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BluBlake - [1] -

northsidegal

Not_Mafia - [1] -

Raya36

Flubbernugget - [2] -

BluBlake, Kop

Fenraiser - [3] -

GuiltyLion, Hopkirk, Not_Mafia

Hopkirk - [1] -

Fenraiser

No Lynch - [0]

Not Voting - [1] -

Flubbernugget

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Mod Note: Hopkirk

is getting prodded. He has (expired on 2017-10-19 10:37:54) show back up

Day 1 ends in (expired on 2017-10-25 16:09:05)

---------------------------------------------------------

Events

Day 0 Starts|Day 0 Ends
Day 1 Starts

[Hopkirk]

Spoiler:

quote="In post 19, northsidegal"]

I've played 9:12 before, it was fun, town won, and I believe it limits scum fakeclaims pretty strongly which is nice. I honestly haven't thought through which of the setups would be more or less townsided yet so I don't really have strong opinions on the setup personally. slight townread on northsidegal for 5.

Fenraiser did you have a reason to vote for DDU when Chosen already had a vote?

VOTE: 9:12

I'm fine with either one actually as they are the most vanilla.

I think Double Day Unlimited would be more fun than Chosen imo.

why do you want more vanilla setups? i think the less mountainous a setup the better, even if the setup has special voting mechanics like double day unlimited.

It's more a personal preference. I like pure vanilla as it forces all the players to use their heads more and not rely on power roles. The scum winrate IS higher, but lack of power roles for both factions does not make the game any less challenging but perhaps even more.

Spoiler:

we're allowed to talk, right? i agree on 9:12, i looked all the setups on the wiki a while ago and if i remember right it has a pretty good town winrate. i'd be okay with chosen mafia too, there are just a few that we definitely shouldn't pick.
VOTE: 9:12

This sounds exactly like what I was thinking new scum would say to try and sound town when I signed up.

I've played 9:12 before, it was fun, town won, and I believe it limits scum fakeclaims pretty strongly which is nice. I honestly haven't thought through which of the setups would be more or less townsided yet so I don't really have strong opinions on the setup personally. slight townread on northsidegal for 5.

Fenraiser did you have a reason to vote for DDU when Chosen already had a vote?

VOTE: 9:12

What did you like about 5?

I've played 9:12 before, it was fun, town won, and I believe it limits scum fakeclaims pretty strongly which is nice. I honestly haven't thought through which of the setups would be more or less townsided yet so I don't really have strong opinions on the setup personally. slight townread on northsidegal for 5.

Fenraiser did you have a reason to vote for DDU when Chosen already had a vote?

VOTE: 9:12

I'm fine with either one actually as they are the most vanilla.

I think Double Day Unlimited would be more fun than Chosen imo.

I don't see why you'd want Vanilla, and the joke afterwards seemed like skipping the question.

VOTE: Fenraiser

Your first question made me a bit wary Hopkirk...the type of question that can be easily misconstrued. Even a set-up preference/choice can put you on fire.

Spoiler:

I'm gonna co-sign the questions in 41 and ask a follow-up:

I can see this as a grab for towncred more than scumhunting.

you

can

see it as a grab for towncred, but how confident are you that it actually

is

a grab for towncred?

Actually, not really. It pissed me off that my game preference seemed to be the sole reason for a vote and scumread. I'm inclined to see more of a scumFlubber than a townFlubber because of this. I am not satisfied with his responses either.

Spoiler:

This sounds exactly like what I was thinking new scum would say to try and sound town when I signed up.

it's the truth, so you can take it however you want. do you find it entirely unbelievable that a townie would want to play the setup with the best town winrate?

hey everyone!

VOTE: blublake

Why did you vote like you were making the first ingame post?

there wasn't a lot of real game discussion during day 0 and i always try to be polite and greet everyone. i wanted to wait until everyone had a chance to get into the thread before i started asking questions. right now i'm waiting for fenraiser's response to 19.

@Fenraiser
‘That seems understandable at first glance, but following that line of logic, the people with those views are implying that people who voted for non-vanilla set-ups and such are probably town.’
This is wrong because: If we do accept scum have a preference for higher scum winrates, then scum must decide what’s optimal in the trade-off between ‘pick high scum winrate to statistically win more’, and ‘pick lower scum winrate to appear town (the whole thing is complete WIFOM). Therefore, the scum who voted for good town setups just fall into the second group. Nobody’s said there isn’t scum in the second group (especially since there’s two scum, and at most 0-1 scum in the first group depending on whether you’re scum or not), so it looks a lot like you’re straw manning the position.
There’s also a difference in that it wasn’t a binary choice between vanilla setup with high scum winrate, and non vanilla with high town winrate. There were multiple options with varying winrates and PR numbers. Flubber wasn’t saying his pick was good by saying yours was bad- he was saying one specific pick was worse than the others, so more likely picked by scum than town.


Also, the non-vanilla setups (especially this one), have better town PRs. That’s a reason for town to prefer non- vanilla that isn’t just winrate based. Winrate and Vanilla are being used interchangeably in some instances.

I kind of see your point on some issues. You're right that my preference to set-ups would favor scum more. But that is the sole reasoning for suspicion on me from Flubber's side, apparently. I would find that more scummy on my side, and while you defended Flubber somewhat and gave a lot of detail against one of my arguments (yes it is flawed), I find it scummy that you haven't directly touched on the topic of Flubber's vote/case on me at all, avoiding giving much detail for Flubber's arguments.

Also, I'm confused as to how voting for a game in favor of scum is something town do.

This is the best argument I've gotten at all against me from Flubber. I have currently seen nothing else to back it up........

VOTE: Hopkirk[/quote][/quote]

A lot of this doesn't make a lot of sense to me. It sounds like you scumread Flubber, but are voting me (as his partner, which is conditional on Flubber scum) rather than Flubber- because I haven't commented on him during a period I haven't commented on anyone. When I last posted, Flubber hadn't really said much on you. He doesn't have reasoning beyond the basic, but I get more of a manipulative impression from you than I do of scum from him. Flubber seems pretty typical of a page 3/4 read to me, and I wouldn’t consider ‘not having a solid case’ scummy at all at this point.

My only defence/comment of Flubber was in response to you attacking him on something that didn’t make logical sense. I get the impression you accepted the logic, so don’t really see the problem there. Scum Hopkirk would be happy for town you to argue with town Flubber over a mistake, so this only seems to happen when I’m Town, or scum with Flubber- and again it doesn’t make sense to vote me rather than Flubber there.

On to the other stuff. You critique my first question to North, and seem to present it as though I scumread him. I said in my response to North’s response that (despite that) I have a slight townread on him. Did you miss my response there, or were you factoring it in (and if so why is it scum motivated)?
Finally, the initial read was very light. It's your reaction that's got me keeping my vote on you.

[Hopkirk]

I think Hopkirk, Raya, and northsidegal are all town, and would like to hear if anyone disagrees.

I agree with what North just said and I'm pretty much null on everybody right now. Post 5 did seem pretty LAMIST to me so I lean a bit more toward scum on her, though.

Don't really like this. It's a sentence on something that's already been discussed, but doesn't add anything to the discussion. No analysis or pressure, barely takes a stance, avoids other discussions.

Interested in your thoughts on Fen.

[Flubbernugget]

Okay so I'm being grilled on an rvs vote now

I've seen it all

[Hopkirk]

Okay so I'm being grilled on an rvs vote now

I've seen it all

No, I'm the one who's scum for not grilling you enough on an RVS vote.

[Flubbernugget]

I like hopkirk for town so far

Pedit: I should have probably clarified that I was making a direct response to Fenraiser

[Fenraiser]

Okay so I'm being grilled on an rvs vote now

I've seen it all

It did not seem random to me. It seemed that you were legitimately accusing me as scum soley because of my set-up choice.

I'm not attacking your random vote itself, I'm attacking the reasons you used with the random vote. You keep avoiding this topic, and you did so again.

In addition, what is wrong with grilling someone on the reasons they put for random voting?


Rant:

Spoiler:

While you've never been grilled on random voting, I've never been grilled/accussed because of my set-up choice I made before the game even officially started. Do you see how ridiculous being grilled because of a

set-up

choice? That pisses me off. I get scumreading me for reactions and behavior, but set-up choice? Are you kidding me?

[Flubbernugget]

My read evolved and you should too

[Flubbernugget]

Also town can usually scumhunt better than harping on one point over and over again

VOTE: Fenraiser

L1 again

[Fenraiser]

Also town can usually scumhunt better than harping on one point over and over again

VOTE: Fenraiser

L1 again

You avoided my last question. In addition, I don't like how you discredit my responses without actually addressing them in detail or directly.

Also,

@Hopkirk

,
I'll get back to you on that response. I don't know what you mean by northsegal so I'm going to look back on it later (probably the huge quotes).

[Flubbernugget]

I literally just answered your last question.

My. Read. Evolved.

[Fenraiser]

In addition, what is wrong with grilling someone on the reasons they put for random voting?

My read evolved and you should too

Also town can usually scumhunt better than harping on one point over and over again

VOTE: Fenraiser

L1 again

I literally just answered your last question.

My. Read. Evolved.

You missed one.

[Fenraiser]

Also town can usually scumhunt better than harping on one point over and over again

VOTE: Fenraiser

L1 again

This is interesting, just putting it out as a note.

[Hopkirk]

Can I clarify how you're using 'Random vote'. I understand it as a vote backed by very little, or sometimes even a joke/whatever catches your eye- but still with some reason however minor.
I might be wrong, but based on someone of the arguments on this page it seems like Flubber is using the same definition as me, while Fen is treated 'Random vote' as essentially a dice roll.

[GuiltyLion]

I'm gonna co-sign the questions in 41 and ask a follow-up:

I can see this as a grab for towncred more than scumhunting.

you

can

see it as a grab for towncred, but how confident are you that it actually

is

a grab for towncred?

Actually, not really. It pissed me off that my game preference seemed to be the sole reason for a vote and scumread. I'm inclined to see more of a scumFlubber than a townFlubber because of this. I am not satisfied with his responses either.

can you unpack this for me a little bit more?

if Flubber is scum, then he posted things like 35 and 36 presumably because he thinks town!Flubber might also say those things and because he thinks it will project as town. You seemed to be making this argument in 40, that you thought those posts were manufactured for towncred.

I basically asked for you to reflect on how confident you are that this is what's going on - trying to see if you would acknowledge that Flubber could also just be

being town

- and you said you were "not really" confident about it, acknowledging some possible bias/tunnel-vision because of his vote on you. On the surface I like those first two sentences because I think it can be difficult for scum to authentically project uncertainty. But then the last couple sentences quoted here and the rest of your post sounds like you're still scumreading Flubber - despite not being confident about it, you're still pushing the idea anyway and not engaging further with more things he's said. That doesn't ring town to me.

I want to understand your mentality when you make a post like this. Why did you hedge and acknowledge that you're not really sure, yet continue to advocate for scum!Flubber, but also move your vote? Do you think Flubber/Hopkirk are partners and both taking advantage of an early mislynch wagon? If not, who else could be scum? who are you most sure about being town?

(basically this is my "trying to engage with you" way of saying this:

My read evolved and you should too

)

Flubber and Hopkirk get some more town points for touching on these or similar things before I got to the thread. I also share Hopkirk's sentiments about Blublake in 55. I'm not yet sold on Fenraiser scum - he might be just tilted trying to defend his game preferences and bad at explaining himself - but I feel like the wagon is good for the game state.

[GuiltyLion]

Post 5 did seem pretty LAMIST to me so I lean a bit more toward scum on her, though.

also BluBlake, if this is true, then why did you vote Flubber instead? Why not push on a scumlean?

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: Fenraiser because L-1

Typical Not Mafia, why doesn't that surprise me. Always votes and uses either poor reasons, or poor logic.

I'd vote for Not Mafia for the opportunism, but I feel Flubber is the better choice for me right now.

Kop I'd like to know why you posted these remarks. You and I both know Not_Mafia plays pretty close to the same way regardless of his alignment, so why are you making this point? If NM opportunistically taking an L-1 vote is NAI, then why call it out?

[GuiltyLion]

If NM opportunistically taking an L-1 vote is

NAI

typical, then why call it out?

actually let me reword this question so I don't put words in your mouth. But I also think it's a fair assumption to say "typical" would mean "not alignment indicative".

[GuiltyLion]

{Hopkirk, northsidegal}
{Flubber, Raya}
{Not_Mafia}
{BluBlake, Fenraiser, Kop}

will currently wagon anyone in the bottom tier. the votes on anyone above Not_Mafia are bad and need way more justification.

[Kop]

VOTE: Fenraiser because L-1

Typical Not Mafia, why doesn't that surprise me. Always votes and uses either poor reasons, or poor logic.

I'd vote for Not Mafia for the opportunism, but I feel Flubber is the better choice for me right now.

Kop I'd like to know why you posted these remarks. You and I both know Not_Mafia plays pretty close to the same way regardless of his alignment, so why are you making this point? If NM opportunistically taking an L-1 vote is NAI, then why call it out?

Because I don't want to be blinded by not giving him any attention because of this. I have just got out of a game with him and I tried to stay away from making similar points because it was more of s policy lynch than anything else, but I couldn't stay away from it because I feel the pressure was justified, he flipped scum.

I'm not saying it's the same here but I'm wary of reading him in any context because I simply don't know what he is due to his gamestyle. And where did I say him putting a L1 vote is NAI?

[Kop]

Yes he plays the same way in both alignments but yes I will make points even if does appear that it's a easy target to go for.

[BluBlake]

Post 5 did seem pretty LAMIST to me so I lean a bit more toward scum on her, though.

also BluBlake, if this is true, then why did you vote Flubber instead? Why not push on a scumlean?

I chose what setups I wanted when I signed up for the game, before I even knew my alignment. So when I read post 5 I rolled my eyes a bit, but I figured it was pretty typical on this site to pick what setup gives good odds of winning instead of what seems the most fun, especially after reading the pre-game discussion. So when day 1 started I didn't pursue it with my first vote and decided to just vote somebody random. After my vote, Hopkirk mentioned the post and some other people had said that they also didn't choose setups based on win percentage. So when you asked us what we thought of North, I thought it was worth mentioning what I thought of the post.

[BluBlake]

I don't really like the wagon on Fen. I didn't get the same vibe from his pre game posting that Lion and Hopkirk seemed to have. Flubber is saying his initial vote was random, but I certainly didn't read it as random especially because 2 other people had placed serious votes on Fen before him. I don't think some of Fen's arguments are great, and I don't really understand his vote on Hopkirk, but his posts seem typical of somebody that got put at L-1 on the first page of the game.

[Flubbernugget]

I like gl and bb for town

[Aronis]

bumpity bump bump bump bump bump bump~