Micro 747: Setup UPick Mafia

[Aronis]

Votecount 1.1

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BluBlake - [1] -

northsidegal

Not_Mafia - [1] -

Raya36

Flubbernugget - [2] -

BluBlake, Fenraiser

Fenraiser - [4] -

GuiltyLion, Hopkirk, Flubbernugget, Not_Mafia

No Lynch - [0]

Not Voting - [1] -

Kop

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Mod Note: Kop replaced Agent Sparkles

Day 1 ends in (expired on 2017-10-25 16:09:05)

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Events

Day 0 Starts|Day 0 Ends
Day 1 Starts

[GuiltyLion]

I think Hopkirk, Raya, and northsidegal are all town, and would like to hear if anyone disagrees.

[northsidegal]

I think Hopkirk, Raya, and northsidegal are all town, and would like to hear if anyone disagrees.

i don't think those reads are entirely warranted at this point (despite me knowing i'm town!). consider how those three people are the same three people that have generally been the most active / participated most in the current discussion. from my point of view a lot of what's been pointed out so far has been fairly obvious, or at least easy enough to argue that making the argument is nai. what i mean here is that it doesn't take some dedicated townie to mull over the wifom that was voting for the setup - nobody's done anything yet that really makes me say "wow, that person is definitely town!". i do have some early townleans but for now i'd say i'm waiting for everyone to really get into the game.

[GuiltyLion]

oh I agree that they're not entirely warranted, and I'm not married to these reads. but if I'm right about them then building consensus on some townreads is going to put more pressure on scum. I'm fine with "eh I'm not sure yet that they're town" reads, I'm more curious to hear if anyone is actually

scumreading

you all's content.

Unless any of you three do something that I particularly can't grok as being a town-oriented post, I'm not currently interested in voting or pressuring there.

[GuiltyLion]

consider how those three people are the same three people that have generally been the most active / participated most in the current discussion.

also this is not really the reason I townread people, fwiw. I have scumread active players before and will do so if I find the player is being scummy

[BluBlake]

I think Hopkirk, Raya, and northsidegal are all town, and would like to hear if anyone disagrees.

I agree with what North just said and I'm pretty much null on everybody right now. Post 5 did seem pretty LAMIST to me so I lean a bit more toward scum on her, though.

[Raya36]

40 is basically just a deflection. He never directly counters the arguments made at him but instead deflects them and says they imply to them as well.

we're allowed to talk, right? i agree on 9:12, i looked all the setups on the wiki a while ago and if i remember right it has a pretty good town winrate. i'd be okay with chosen mafia too, there are just a few that we definitely shouldn't pick.
VOTE: 9:12

This sounds exactly like what I was thinking new scum would say to try and sound town when I signed up.

I kind of feel the same way about this. I didn't even think to consider what games had the best town win rate and I chose solely off of what I thought would be the most fun. The fact that North brought this up could either be town thinking a bit ahead or scum trying to get town brownie points.

I slightly like this (assuming Raya is new as it appears) as scum have more incentive to think about setups.

Just to answer this my join date is pretty accurate. I've played a few forum games before on a different site but the game was almost completely different. Besides that I've played a game similar to ToS when I was a lot younger but again, nothing like mafiascum.

[Flubbernugget]

The idea that I am scum for not making a scum wifom gambit is laughable at best.

I like my vote

Nothing else looks like scum to me so far

[Kop]

That North post was supposed to be here rather than above. I multi quoted North's post, then forgot about it by the time I'd finished responding to Fen. This post is responding to North, but there's no point quoting again as it's above.

1.) It's 60-40 at the very most. I thought about what factors would influence setup choice as soon as I'd signed up, and I'd assume most people did. The thing that makes it lean one way is commenting upon it at the start seems like it comes slightly more often from scum than town- given I didn't expect anyone to have not thought of town winrate, so vocalising it seemed like empty words.

2.) I missed 19, so didn't realize you were already questioning someone, and I like you after reading it.

I can agree with this, I wasn't in the selection due to replacing in as the game was in play, but in any given situation or any setup I join, I don't look at the town win rate, I prefer to play the setup at hand and try to utilise my abilities to win, and in this situation if I was around, I would have selected a setup that I would find enjoyable, not because one setup has a higher win percentage over another.

Folk who mention the winning percentage of any setup is just filler posts that really doesn't alter anything, or how I read them, because it can come from either alignment and none has given me any vibes that I can read into.

[Kop]

Raya's most recent post is a lack of scumhunting hidden in a few sentences.

VOTE: Fenraiser for suggesting dd unlimited. Town win rate for that setup is garbage and a half.

This isn't really a basis to vote someone for, not to mention to scum read on.

Your vote on the fen wagon stands out the most for me, because others have genuinely offered there reasons and have a basis of why they are voting there, yours just strikes me as massively optimistic along with Not Mafia.

[Kop]

VOTE: Fenraiser because L-1

Typical Not Mafia, why doesn't that surprise me. Always votes and uses either poor reasons, or poor logic.

[Kop]

VOTE: Fenraiser because L-1

Typical Not Mafia, why doesn't that surprise me. Always votes and uses either poor reasons, or poor logic.

Or no reasons at all.

VOTE: Flubbernugget

I'd vote for Not Mafia for the opportunism, but I feel Flubber is the better choice for me right now.

@Flubber, are you scum reading Fen just purely because of his game choice?

[Flubbernugget]

No, and I cite 57 on this page to answer how so.

[Flubbernugget]

UNVOTE:

Thinking about it more, I want a little more from Fenraiser before leaving a quick hammer on the table.

[Flubbernugget]

Also, I'm confused as to how voting for a game in favor of scum is something town do.

[Not_Mafia]

VOTE: Fenraiser because L-1

Typical Not Mafia, why doesn't that surprise me. Always votes and uses either poor reasons, or poor logic.

I think that’s a great reason

[Flubbernugget]

There was a time where you would at least try dude

[northsidegal]

That North post was supposed to be here rather than above. I multi quoted North's post, then forgot about it by the time I'd finished responding to Fen. This post is responding to North, but there's no point quoting again as it's above.

1.) It's 60-40 at the very most. I thought about what factors would influence setup choice as soon as I'd signed up, and I'd assume most people did. The thing that makes it lean one way is commenting upon it at the start seems like it comes slightly more often from scum than town- given I didn't expect anyone to have not thought of town winrate, so vocalising it seemed like empty words.

2.) I missed 19, so didn't realize you were already questioning someone, and I like you after reading it.

I can agree with this, I wasn't in the selection due to replacing in as the game was in play, but in any given situation or any setup I join, I don't look at the town win rate, I prefer to play the setup at hand and try to utilise my abilities to win, and in this situation if I was around,

I would have selected a setup that I would find enjoyable, not because one setup has a higher win percentage over another.

Folk who mention the winning percentage of any setup is just filler posts that really doesn't alter anything, or how I read them, because it can come from either alignment and none has given me any vibes that I can read into.

i don't disagree, which is why it's fortunate that i think 9:12 is a fun setup as well as one with a good winrate. i think it's important context to mention that when i posted 5 i was expecting a lot more discussion and a lot more disagreement as to what the setup would be. i wanted to convince people that we should do 9:12 and while i did (and still do) think it would be fun, i thought that discussing the winrate would be a better way to convince people. after all, different people find different setups fun but most of the people voting should have been concerned with the town winrate, so that would be a more convincing argument to make.

[Fenraiser]

VOTE: Fenraiser because L-1

Typical Not Mafia, why doesn't that surprise me. Always votes and uses either poor reasons, or poor logic.

I think that’s a great reason

Pressure voting is not uncommon from my experience.

Also, I'll address the questions in a bit.

[Fenraiser]

Spoiler:

quote="In post 19, northsidegal"]

I've played 9:12 before, it was fun, town won, and I believe it limits scum fakeclaims pretty strongly which is nice. I honestly haven't thought through which of the setups would be more or less townsided yet so I don't really have strong opinions on the setup personally. slight townread on northsidegal for 5.

Fenraiser did you have a reason to vote for DDU when Chosen already had a vote?

VOTE: 9:12

I'm fine with either one actually as they are the most vanilla.

I think Double Day Unlimited would be more fun than Chosen imo.

why do you want more vanilla setups? i think the less mountainous a setup the better, even if the setup has special voting mechanics like double day unlimited.[/quote]

It's more a personal preference. I like pure vanilla as it forces all the players to use their heads more and not rely on power roles. The scum winrate IS higher, but lack of power roles for both factions does not make the game any less challenging but perhaps even more.

Spoiler:

we're allowed to talk, right? i agree on 9:12, i looked all the setups on the wiki a while ago and if i remember right it has a pretty good town winrate. i'd be okay with chosen mafia too, there are just a few that we definitely shouldn't pick.
VOTE: 9:12

This sounds exactly like what I was thinking new scum would say to try and sound town when I signed up.

I've played 9:12 before, it was fun, town won, and I believe it limits scum fakeclaims pretty strongly which is nice. I honestly haven't thought through which of the setups would be more or less townsided yet so I don't really have strong opinions on the setup personally. slight townread on northsidegal for 5.

Fenraiser did you have a reason to vote for DDU when Chosen already had a vote?

VOTE: 9:12

What did you like about 5?

I've played 9:12 before, it was fun, town won, and I believe it limits scum fakeclaims pretty strongly which is nice. I honestly haven't thought through which of the setups would be more or less townsided yet so I don't really have strong opinions on the setup personally. slight townread on northsidegal for 5.

Fenraiser did you have a reason to vote for DDU when Chosen already had a vote?

VOTE: 9:12

I'm fine with either one actually as they are the most vanilla.

I think Double Day Unlimited would be more fun than Chosen imo.

I don't see why you'd want Vanilla, and the joke afterwards seemed like skipping the question.

VOTE: Fenraiser

Your first question made me a bit wary Hopkirk...the type of question that can be easily misconstrued. Even a set-up preference/choice can put you on fire.

Spoiler:

I'm gonna co-sign the questions in 41 and ask a follow-up:

I can see this as a grab for towncred more than scumhunting.

you

can

see it as a grab for towncred, but how confident are you that it actually

is

a grab for towncred?

Actually, not really. It pissed me off that my game preference seemed to be the sole reason for a vote and scumread. I'm inclined to see more of a scumFlubber than a townFlubber because of this. I am not satisfied with his responses either.

Spoiler:

This sounds exactly like what I was thinking new scum would say to try and sound town when I signed up.

it's the truth, so you can take it however you want. do you find it entirely unbelievable that a townie would want to play the setup with the best town winrate?

hey everyone!

VOTE: blublake

Why did you vote like you were making the first ingame post?

there wasn't a lot of real game discussion during day 0 and i always try to be polite and greet everyone. i wanted to wait until everyone had a chance to get into the thread before i started asking questions. right now i'm waiting for fenraiser's response to 19.

@Fenraiser
‘That seems understandable at first glance, but following that line of logic, the people with those views are implying that people who voted for non-vanilla set-ups and such are probably town.’
This is wrong because: If we do accept scum have a preference for higher scum winrates, then scum must decide what’s optimal in the trade-off between ‘pick high scum winrate to statistically win more’, and ‘pick lower scum winrate to appear town (the whole thing is complete WIFOM). Therefore, the scum who voted for good town setups just fall into the second group. Nobody’s said there isn’t scum in the second group (especially since there’s two scum, and at most 0-1 scum in the first group depending on whether you’re scum or not), so it looks a lot like you’re straw manning the position.
There’s also a difference in that it wasn’t a binary choice between vanilla setup with high scum winrate, and non vanilla with high town winrate. There were multiple options with varying winrates and PR numbers. Flubber wasn’t saying his pick was good by saying yours was bad- he was saying one specific pick was worse than the others, so more likely picked by scum than town.


Also, the non-vanilla setups (especially this one), have better town PRs. That’s a reason for town to prefer non- vanilla that isn’t just winrate based. Winrate and Vanilla are being used interchangeably in some instances.

I kind of see your point on some issues. You're right that my preference to set-ups would favor scum more. But that is the sole reasoning for suspicion on me from Flubber's side, apparently. I would find that more scummy on my side, and while you defended Flubber somewhat and gave a lot of detail against one of my arguments (yes it is flawed), I find it scummy that you haven't directly touched on the topic of Flubber's vote/case on me at all, avoiding giving much detail for Flubber's arguments.

Also, I'm confused as to how voting for a game in favor of scum is something town do.

This is the best argument I've gotten at all against me from Flubber. I have currently seen nothing else to back it up........

VOTE: Hopkirk

[Flubbernugget]

I've already said that your push on me is bad, on this very page. That is different than voting you for setup choice.

You somehow managing to miss this does ring scum though.

[Fenraiser]

I already think Fenraiser is kinda scum

You saw what I saw

VOTE: 9 12

VOTE: Flubbernugget for hammering with 8 days left.

Yeah I saw someone entertain dd unlimited and made the decision that nobody deserved the opportunity to do something stupid.

Raya's most recent post is a lack of scumhunting hidden in a few sentences.

VOTE: Fenraiser for suggesting dd unlimited. Town win rate for that setup is garbage and a half.

L2

The idea that I am scum for not making a scum wifom gambit is laughable at best.

I like my vote

Nothing else looks like scum to me so far

No, and I cite 57 on this page to answer how so.

UNVOTE:

Thinking about it more, I want a little more from Fenraiser before leaving a quick hammer on the table.

Also, I'm confused as to how voting for a game in favor of scum is something town do.

There was a time where you would at least try dude

I've already said that your push on me is bad, on this very page. That is different than voting you for setup choice.

You somehow managing to miss this does ring scum though.

The push is as bad as your initial vote and reasoning. I am aware. It does not change my argument.

This progression makes it seem that you really were voting initially based on set-up choice. That is what I'm grilling you on. And this is what you keep avoiding in every single post you make.

Address your initial vote and reasoning. Now that I've actually articulated what I want, I would like some answers.

[Fenraiser]

*current arguments.

[Fenraiser]

@blublake @notmafia

Care to throw your 2 cents in? Haven't heard from you two in a while. What are your impressions of this?

[Aronis]

good morning my wonderful players!!!