Micro 768: Geriatric Grey Flag Nightless - Game Over

[Aristophanes]

Alighmrnt and direction diffwr at times overall townu wit a scummu puah

[Jingle]

If, somehow, you lying in a LAMIST way about how you act as scum, doubling down when presented with contrary evidence and explaining said evidence away with an "It's situational" handwave, and then throwing your hands in the air and saying I guess I don't know my own meta when confronted with a reasonably in depth meta dive proving that not only is that not your meta, but it hasn't been for a reasonably long time is town (A hint: it's not) then you should be focusing on scumhunting now more than ever.

Hey, remember when I described what town Ari should do and it was not what he's doing now? I do. Good times.

Also, I spent all day judging magic tournaments because apparently I'm a masochist and I'm too exhausted to be helpful tonight. I'll see yall tomorrow.

[Hopkirk]

@Mod:

Can you prod ASP, it’s been 100 hours since he made his first and only post.

I'll be able to properly catch up and post over the weekend, response to one question I can respond to quickly:

Hopkirk, my lack of response to your posting was due to my choice to wait and see what further contributions you made to the thread before placing a judgment.

'I fluffed a response to.': What do you mean by that?
What about the RayFrost vote?

I have no idea who you scumread right now, and I don't like that in this scenario. As far as I can tell:
You like Jingles/Insanity/Reckoner, somewhat like Korts, haven’t mentioned RayFrost or ASP/Luca,
You also imply in one post that you dislike Keychain/CoA, but without making any attempt to push either of them or develop the read, despite it only coming in 48- and even there it’s agreeing with someone instead of mentioning either of them.

This should have been quoting Ari's post above, rather than RayFrost. I’m surprised/suspicious Insanity didn’t notice since she was the next post, and should have noticed given her suspicion of my slot.
Also @Insanity: what are your thoughts in response to 156- that I made in part in response to your question? I’m kind of suspicious that you haven’t really mentioned me much since starting to vote Ari.

[insanity018]

I was spending time trying to articulate this better.

Aristophanes' posts are really uninspiring. He basically calls all the votes alright, but off in some way. There's no comment on whether some votes feel more off than others, or whether some are more likely to be scum-motivated.

I think that at least one of Hopkirk (CultofAthena) and RayFrost are likely to be scum.

My issues with CultofAthena were documented here. Since replacing in, the big issue I've had with Hopkirk is the way he has formed his reads. He scumreads me for scumreading CultofAthena 'at the expense of other stuff.' (120,138). But I haven't done that at all. I have talked about and engaged with plenty of other players. So, this suggests to me that Hopkirk is preoccupied with my scumread of his slot, at the expense of analysing anything else in my play or genuinely trying to work out of I am town-motivated or scum-motivated. The fact that many of his scumreads (at least in part) flow off the fact that they are townreading me, shows again that he is more interested in my scumread for his slot, than trying to look at people's actual actions and solve the game.

To me, RayFrost's posts have a flying-under-the-radar feel. It seems like his posts are very safe and non-controversial - feels like posting content, without trying too hard to engage with players in the game. I dislike that what I see as the most original comment he made was "Luca's posting involves a lot of putting words into other people's mouths and doesn't feel like a lot of words coming out of his own mouth and this is questionable and worthy of suspicion" (41). But after getting questioned on this statement, RayFrost backpedals, "Re question regarding luca putting words in other people's mouths, I suppose I used the wrong wording" (56) and then later just adopts Korts' argument (119).

[insanity018]

I'll be able to properly catch up and post over the weekend, response to one question I can respond to quickly:

Hopkirk, my lack of response to your posting was due to my choice to wait and see what further contributions you made to the thread before placing a judgment.

'I fluffed a response to.': What do you mean by that?
What about the RayFrost vote?

I have no idea who you scumread right now, and I don't like that in this scenario. As far as I can tell:
You like Jingles/Insanity/Reckoner, somewhat like Korts, haven’t mentioned RayFrost or ASP/Luca,
You also imply in one post that you dislike Keychain/CoA, but without making any attempt to push either of them or develop the read, despite it only coming in 48- and even there it’s agreeing with someone instead of mentioning either of them.

This should have been quoting Ari's post above, rather than RayFrost. I’m surprised/suspicious Insanity didn’t notice since she was the next post, and should have noticed given her suspicion of my slot.

What's there to notice?

The formatting is screwed up but - Ari's response to Ray's vote is in 172 which I have already commented on. Whatever response Ari made in response to you has been lost in his formatting issues. You are correct to observe that Ari has been really wishy washy on developing reads or pushing players. Something I have mentioned plenty of times 101 116 124

Also @Insanity: what are your thoughts in response to 156- that I made in part in response to your question? I’m kind of suspicious that you haven’t really mentioned me much since starting to vote Ari.

What I got out of your response is that you don't follow Reck's read of Jingle. I think I understand what he was getting at, but I accept that it might not have been very clearly expressed. I disagree that it's strange for Reck not to have voted CultofAthena at that time, since he was expressing suspicion of more than one person (including Jingle).

I have posted 4 times since voting Ari. You are mentioned in 2/4 posts.

[Keychain]

Keychain, you have commented on Jingle's case but I can't see what your current read of Aristophanes is. What is your read of Aristophanes at the moment?

I still find him town.

Jingle phrases it in a very condemning way but reading through Ari's ISO, I don't really see anything wrong with how he responded to the meta case. 88 is a reasonable response. He admits he got it wrong in 90, while iirc Jingle was using the lack of such a statement as part of his case. I might be wrong on that.

I can understand the thought pattern behind 91 and 93 - and he appears to be scumreading someone for using meta conclusions, which is a really odd tack to take as scum if the meta is true.

His response to me:

On the spoilered case, I thought I was right, I gave you the set of stipulations I believed were true, I then was proven incorrect and gave in to what must be my new meta. I have said this time and time again now.

is what I see when I look through his ISO. And the quote Hopkirk pointed out:

Hopkirk post I fluffed a response to.

is just... why would scum ever be this honest? The action is scummy but the way he said it just sounds like town who doesn't care about how they look.

The whole "oh no you're going to mislynch me " kind of argument gives me pause, but at the same time I think scum would be pretty loathe to let a partner go down on D1 so why would the game be so still if this were a scum lynch?

Not really a fan of this lynch or this wagon.

[Hopkirk]

@Insanity: I don’t ‘scumread’ you. That’s too hard a term. I’m suspicious and working on sorting you. I’m most suspicious of Ari/Reckless right now. You seem like a less likely partner for either.

I don’t scumread people for townreading you. Why did you conclude that? If you’re talking about my Reckless comment, that’s about not following why he townread you, not

that

he townread you. Do you agree Reckless hasn’t followed up well on his Jingles read?

‘What's there to notice?’: It seemed a bit weird you didn’t pick up on it. Not bad weird though.
I was mistaken that you didn’t mention me much after voting Ari.

@Keychain: ‘why would scum ever be this honest?’: The most obvious reason is obviously to get this reaction. If he feels like he’s caught scum then he might as well try anything.

[Aristophanes]

'I fluffed a response to.': What do you mean by that?
What about the RayFrost vote?

Your vote is based on tone and an assumption that 39 is weird, but it is not. Sucks.

I believe I already addressed Ray? Sorry the posts were such a mess.

[Hopkirk]

'I fluffed a response to.': What do you mean by that?
What about the RayFrost vote?

Your vote is based on tone and an assumption that 39 is weird, but it is not. Sucks.

I believe I already addressed Ray? Sorry the posts were such a mess.

I'll be able to properly catch up and post over the weekend, response to one question I can respond to quickly:

Hopkirk, my lack of response to your posting was due to my choice to wait and see what further contributions you made to the thread before placing a judgment.

'I fluffed a response to.': What do you mean by that?
What about the RayFrost vote?

I have no idea who you scumread right now, and I don't like that in this scenario. As far as I can tell:
You like Jingles/Insanity/Reckoner, somewhat like Korts, haven’t mentioned RayFrost or ASP/Luca,
You also imply in one post that you dislike Keychain/CoA, but without making any attempt to push either of them or develop the read, despite it only coming in 48- and even there it’s agreeing with someone instead of mentioning either of them.

What are your current reads?

[Aristophanes]

Oh, I didn't realize the other part was for me as well. Sorry!

Remember when I said I was going to do an Iso attack at the thread to get reads since I probably haven't read a few of the middle pages here and have been mostly scanning for my own name this game?
Well that has yet to happen.

[RayFrost]

I'm terribly sorry but life is kicking me hard in a variety of ways.

Mod: Please replace me.

I simply don't have the time / energy to keep up with mafia. Even at this slow pace. My apologies.

[Lord Gurgi]

Day One continues. Five to lynch.

Vote Count

Aristophanes

[8 Posts] (4) -

RayFrost, Hopkirk, insanity018, Korts

Hopkirk

[8 Posts] (1) -

Keychain

Korts

[10 Posts] (1) -

A Simple Plan

Jingle

[10 Posts] (1) -

xRECKONERx

RayFrost

[10 Posts] (1) -

Jingle

A Simple Plan

[10 Posts] (0) -

None

xRECKONERx

[10 Posts] (0) -

None

Keychain

[10 Posts] (0) -

None

insanity018

[10 Posts] (0) -

None

None

(1) -

Aristophanes

Current Deadline:

None.

Impending Prods

Prod sent to A Simple Plan and Korts. xRECKONERx is V/LA.

Post Count Refresh:

(expired on 2018-01-16 00:00:01)

[Lord Gurgi]

TheGoldenParadox replaces RayFrost

[Jingle]

Sup, Golden Man.

Korts- Likely not scum with Luca or reck slots. Slightly higher than normal chance with Key and Ray, needs to be looked into.
xRECKONERx- Likely not scum with korts, probably not scum from early ties to ari.
RayFrost- Decent scumpartner to most of thread. Look here closely. Not Scum with ASP.
Aristophanes-
Hopkirk- Probably not scum with Ray, Key, Insanity. Ray is based on the presumption of CoA being newbie, not alt. Meta worth looking at here.
A Simple Plan- Not scum with Korts, Ray.
Keychain- not scum with insanity, probs not scum with CoA.
insanity018- If scum, one of luca/korts likely scum. Her CoA wagon came at a point where any scum other than a buddy of one of them (or me I guess) has no impetus to start a new wagon. Not scum with CoA or Key.

I'd explain more, but I really don't have the time to post more today. IF Ari hasn't self voted, I'll be around to answer specifics and stuff this weekend. (probably Sunday)

I've already explained the Luca/Korts and Korts/Reck interactions, at least partially. The Ray/ASP connection, similarly, is somewhere in my ISO.

Reck/Ari is unlikely from the early Ari sheeping. Particularly 39 seems weird from a scumpartner.

Outside of that, Ari has pretty carefully not been making associative tells (by mostly just not posting content since he fell under suspicion) which is further cementing my scumread there. There's not much to be said because there's not much to analyze. Unfortunately, pretty much anything he says at this point will by necessity be thrown on the fires of WIFOM.

The insanity sheep from Key came at a point where it didn't look like my Ari push really had legs, and there were three viable other options to choose from to sheep onto. Instead, key chose hopkirk. Lending sheeping support to a buddy's wagon there isn't likely from a scum perspective, nor is sheeping a buddy. Funnily enough, there are some pretty strong associatives suggesting me and Key are scum together, which I know to be false.

Similarly, insanity has no impetus to try and start the CoA wagon when she did if she's scum with neither Korts or Luca as partners. Sitting bad and letting them 1v1 would have been less effort for the same effect. Building what is arguably the best case at the time is a lot of effort that she simply didn't need as scum there.


If I forgot any of the connections, let me know. I'm heading off to buy some rum, but I may well be back later.

[Korts]

Oh hey, looks like I haven't posted in a few days. I didn't really have much to say that I haven't already said, but I'll figure something out tomorrow.

[insanity018]

I'm too tired to post today. I will be here tomorrow.

[insanity018]

Keychain, you have commented on Jingle's case but I can't see what your current read of Aristophanes is. What is your read of Aristophanes at the moment?

I still find him town.

Jingle phrases it in a very condemning way but reading through Ari's ISO, I don't really see anything wrong with how he responded to the meta case. 88 is a reasonable response. He admits he got it wrong in 90, while iirc Jingle was using the lack of such a statement as part of his case. I might be wrong on that.

I can understand the thought pattern behind 91 and 93 - and he appears to be scumreading someone for using meta conclusions, which is a really odd tack to take as scum if the meta is true.

I find your response interesting because I disagree with many of your points.

Well, while Ari admits he is wrong in 90, straight afterwards in 91, he immediately goes back to his old position, "Like, I see where I selfmeta'd incorrectly (I guess my playstyle has evolved without me noticing) and I do believe it is dependant on the game and situation."

The thing is despite Ari hating Jingle's meta case and calling it dumb multiple times, he still doesn't express a scumread on Jingle. What do you make of the fact that Aristophanes doesn't vote for Jingle after getting rid of his RVS vote? I don't understand the thought pattern at all. Ari describes Jingle as 'scum pushing a narrative' and 'convenient' (93). But ultimately, Ari tries to placate(?) Jingle "I think you have a chance of actually scumhunting but my gut says yoy may be faking it" (95), before saying that Jingle feels off but not strong enough to warrant a vote (114). This doesn't feel like the thought pattern of town thinks scum is pushing a narrative on him at all.

The whole "oh no you're going to mislynch me " kind of argument gives me pause, but at the same time I think scum would be pretty loathe to let a partner go down on D1 so why would the game be so still if this were a scum lynch?

I'm not too worried about the timing. I think this wagon has formed quite slowly and there has been a fair amount of resistance, particularly at the start. (If Jingle is town and Ari town), I would have thought scum would have been more likely to jump onto a 'scumslip case'. There's also quite a few inactive slots, which is contributing to the game being still.

Also, what is your current read of Jingle?

[insanity018]

@Insanity: I don’t ‘scumread’ you. That’s too hard a term. I’m suspicious and working on sorting you. I’m most suspicious of Ari/Reckless right now. You seem like a less likely partner for either.

I don’t scumread people for townreading you. Why did you conclude that? If you’re talking about my Reckless comment, that’s about not following why he townread you, not

that

he townread you. Do you agree Reckless hasn’t followed up well on his Jingles read?

‘What's there to notice?’: It seemed a bit weird you didn’t pick up on it. Not bad weird though.
I was mistaken that you didn’t mention me much after voting Ari.

Well, I said that in part your scumreads on Korts and Reck are based on not liking their reads/conclusions 120 and clearly townreading me is one of those conclusions you don't like.

Thanks for clarifying the Reck comment. I don't have an issue with Reck's dealing with Jingle up until 71. I agree that he hasn't followed up well on it since then. That said, he has been quite absent from the thread since that time, so there's a lot that has happened that I would like to see him comment on.

Also, I still haven't figured out what you thought I should have noticed.

[Aristophanes]

Guys, just lynch me and get the flip already. This isnt going to change and is just stalling the game.

[TheGoldenParadox]

I don't believe this hammer should happen yet. From my understanding of the game Ari looks too much like town for this nonsense, which looks slightly like a scum-piled wagon. I'm pretty sure we'll find scum currently on this wagon, because I'm not sure of Ari's guilt.
UNVOTE: Aristophanes
I'm ok with Korts, pretty townie posting from what I can see. Reck looks fine too.
Hopkirk is slightly leaning scum to me.
ASP is null: not enough posts to determine yet.
Jingle looks townie. I like their game progression.
That leaves Keychain.
I'm almost 100% sure scum is within Ari, Key, Hop.
Right now I prefer lynching hopkirk simply because they look more scummy. key+Hop is a viable scumteam.
VOTE: Hopkirk

[TheGoldenParadox]

EBWOP:
Ari I want to hear from you.Get a vote down or I'll L-1 again.

[Aristophanes]

EBWOP:
Ari I want to hear from you.Get a vote down or I'll L-1 again.

Thank you, I can do that! Gimme another day? Im sorry I'm such a piece of shit player this game.

[insanity018]

Welcome to the game TheGoldenParadox.

I don't believe this hammer should happen yet. From my understanding of the game Ari looks too much like town for this nonsense, which looks slightly like a scum-piled wagon. I'm pretty sure we'll find scum currently on this wagon, because I'm not sure of Ari's guilt.
UNVOTE: Aristophanes
I'm ok with Korts, pretty townie posting from what I can see. Reck looks fine too.
Hopkirk is slightly leaning scum to me.
ASP is null: not enough posts to determine yet.
Jingle looks townie. I like their game progression.
That leaves Keychain.
I'm almost 100% sure scum is within Ari, Key, Hop.
Right now I prefer lynching hopkirk simply because they look more scummy. key+Hop is a viable scumteam.
VOTE: Hopkirk

There's quite a few inconsistencies here.

If you think Aristophanes is 'too much like town', why do you then conclude that you're '100% sure scum is within Ari, Key, Hop'?

What are you finding scummy about Hopkirk? Especially, why do you think he's more worth voting than Aristophanes?

If you believe that this is a scum-piled wagon, why 2/3 of your scumreads off the wagon?

[Keychain]

Welcome, TheGoldenParadox!

Oh hey, looks like I haven't posted in a few days. I didn't really have much to say that I haven't already said, but I'll figure something out tomorrow.

If you could go into some kind of depth on your Ari read, I would find that really helpful. Like for/against him being scum.

Keychain, you have commented on Jingle's case but I can't see what your current read of Aristophanes is. What is your read of Aristophanes at the moment?

I still find him town.

Jingle phrases it in a very condemning way but reading through Ari's ISO, I don't really see anything wrong with how he responded to the meta case. 88 is a reasonable response. He admits he got it wrong in 90, while iirc Jingle was using the lack of such a statement as part of his case. I might be wrong on that.

I can understand the thought pattern behind 91 and 93 - and he appears to be scumreading someone for using meta conclusions, which is a really odd tack to take as scum if the meta is true.

I find your response interesting because I disagree with many of your points.

Well, while Ari admits he is wrong in 90, straight afterwards in 91, he immediately goes back to his old position, "Like, I see where I selfmeta'd incorrectly (I guess my playstyle has evolved without me noticing) and I do believe it is dependant on the game and situation."

The thing is despite Ari hating Jingle's meta case and calling it dumb multiple times, he still doesn't express a scumread on Jingle. What do you make of the fact that Aristophanes doesn't vote for Jingle after getting rid of his RVS vote? I don't understand the thought pattern at all. Ari describes Jingle as 'scum pushing a narrative' and 'convenient' (93). But ultimately, Ari tries to placate(?) Jingle "I think you have a chance of actually scumhunting but my gut says yoy may be faking it" (95), before saying that Jingle feels off but not strong enough to warrant a vote (114). This doesn't feel like the thought pattern of town thinks scum is pushing a narrative on him at all.

The whole "oh no you're going to mislynch me " kind of argument gives me pause, but at the same time I think scum would be pretty loathe to let a partner go down on D1 so why would the game be so still if this were a scum lynch?

I'm not too worried about the timing. I think this wagon has formed quite slowly and there has been a fair amount of resistance, particularly at the start. (If Jingle is town and Ari town), I would have thought scum would have been more likely to jump onto a 'scumslip case'. There's also quite a few inactive slots, which is contributing to the game being still.

Also, what is your current read of Jingle?

"despite Ari hating Jingle's meta case and calling it dumb multiple times, he still doesn't express a scumread on Jingle. What do you make of the fact that Aristophanes doesn't vote for Jingle after getting rid of his RVS vote?" - Someone pushing a bad case on you doesn't make them scum. I would actually consider the lack of retaliation to be more likely to come from town.

But you're right in that it's really weird that he'd then make that comment in 93 about Jingle being scum but not acting on it. That suggests that the lack of retaliation I townread might be a deliberate choice. Like despite voicing a scumread, he's not acting on it. Is that what you mean regarding it not seeming like a town thought process or am I missing your point?

I don't really consider the amount of resistance at the start to mean as much as the activity that would be generated by scum trying to save a partner as they neared lynch.

I don't know how I feel about Jingle right now to be quite honest.

I don't believe this hammer should happen yet. From my understanding of the game Ari looks too much like town for this nonsense, which looks slightly like a scum-piled wagon. I'm pretty sure we'll find scum currently on this wagon, because I'm not sure of Ari's guilt.
UNVOTE: Aristophanes
I'm ok with Korts, pretty townie posting from what I can see. Reck looks fine too.
Hopkirk is slightly leaning scum to me.
ASP is null: not enough posts to determine yet.
Jingle looks townie. I like their game progression.
That leaves Keychain.
I'm almost 100% sure scum is within Ari, Key, Hop.
Right now I prefer lynching hopkirk simply because they look more scummy. key+Hop is a viable scumteam.
VOTE: Hopkirk

It looks like insanity pointed out some issues with this post but my immediate one was that you ended with "That leaves Keychain" as if you'd listed all the players, but you skipped her.
You've also given zero reasons for any of the players that you do have a read on or what might link Hopkirk and me. Those things would be good to hear.

[Jingle]

I forgot about this game when allocating mafia time today. Also, I've run out of mafia time today.