Micro 792: Three in One (Day 6)

[Something_Smart]

That's not at all what town-Creature does, and it's not really what I'm talking about.
I really just mean the more general posting to appear superficially town-motivated.

Smart help me read Penguin, i'm clearly mad biased there

So am I though.

[Something_Smart]

Yeah how Cheeky understood it is pretty accurate

[CheekyTeeky]

I mean that's also clearly not true but ok.

CT, explain your full read progression on Penguin?

I've asked you to explain your scum read on him and would prefer you answer before I explain my town read on him.

[Mathdino]

I literally already did so.

tl;dr (go read my ISO for more):
1. His pushback against setup optimisation isn't a scummy thing, but the way in which he did it reminds me of scum in previous Opens I've tried to break.
2. He can't seem to decide whether he's voting me for being bad town that he doesn't wanna play with, or because he thinks I'm scum. His only reason for scumreading me is that he "doesn't think my stances are genuine", which is a straight up copout reason to scumread someone, and not something he's explained at all.
3. He's going full AtE in terms of "Mathdino stop being egotistical and stop thinking you're so much better than others that they should be policy lynched" which is a fantastic way to get easily-pocketable Bambi/Red/maybeN_M on his side.

Do you want me to go through the metadive before I ask for your help on this?

[CheekyTeeky]

No I think you're being biased. There's no motivation for scum Penguin to drop an AtE when he's under not very much pressure early game. It felt 100% genuine to me and is the main reason I lock TR him.

I started off not knowing how I felt so I pushed him. Then I kind of felt his reaction to the claim was fine as he wasn't using it as an excuse to scum read you at the time he was saying he didn't agree. Then I thought he misrepped you by saying you weren't playing the game, but then he clarified what he meant and pointed out your ego/high horse thing which made me lock town him, because your opening game is RCesque so his points are valid although I'm not PLing you today for it.

[RedFlavor]

I've never actually seen scum!NM so I can't compare to scum meta. What I have seen of his town game is usually quite trolly/humourous but his votes always make sense. In contrast, I see him trying a little too hard for what I expect of him and he's voted an inactive slot. I conclude that this must be his scum game since I haven't seen him play like this before.

Do I get extra cred if I say I have never mislynched town NM?

Why did you vote not mafia instead of someone that would give you reactions?
I think you are opportunistic scum who will say "He was impossible to read anyways, that was a good PL." after lyncing not mafia.

VOTE: cheeky

I've created enough reactions and now I'm presenting a case on Not_Mafia as scum. I'm voting Not_Mafia because I think he's scum as I've pointed out.

As if I wouldn't realise that NM is a bad push if I were scum. I would leave him til LyLo along with you if you were town.

Bad vote buddy.

who is your second scum?

[CheekyTeeky]

You're literally OMGUSing him from my PoV and that's why I wanted to understand your scum read.

[CheekyTeeky]

I've never actually seen scum!NM so I can't compare to scum meta. What I have seen of his town game is usually quite trolly/humourous but his votes always make sense. In contrast, I see him trying a little too hard for what I expect of him and he's voted an inactive slot. I conclude that this must be his scum game since I haven't seen him play like this before.

Do I get extra cred if I say I have never mislynched town NM?

Why did you vote not mafia instead of someone that would give you reactions?
I think you are opportunistic scum who will say "He was impossible to read anyways, that was a good PL." after lyncing not mafia.

VOTE: cheeky

I've created enough reactions and now I'm presenting a case on Not_Mafia as scum. I'm voting Not_Mafia because I think he's scum as I've pointed out.

As if I wouldn't realise that NM is a bad push if I were scum. I would leave him til LyLo along with you if you were town.

Bad vote buddy.

who is your second scum?

Someone who is not Penguin or Gamma at this point. I'm still working on it.

[Mathdino]

RC pushes for policy lynches on players he thinks are better as scum than town?

If I'm wrong on Penguin I'm quickly heading toward a scumteam of {NSG}+{CT or N_M}.

VOTE: northsidegal

god help me if this is town

Edit: I was scumreading him before he was pushing me at all. Literally what happened FMPOV is

- Mathdino pushes for setup spec and policy lynches
- People get annoyed, suggest real scumhunting
- I go "well if we're playing the game..." and vote Penguin because he was my strongest scumread
- Penguin asks me to explain
- I do so
- Penguin flips shit at me "not playing the game"

[RedFlavor]

@gamma

what do you think about Penguin and cheeky at this point?

[Mathdino]

Is that line more characteristic of scum-him?

I dunno. It just pinged me that he called for more votes without voting.

I'm suspicious of Math, Gamma and the cute penguin at this point. I can take or leave most of these reads, meaning confidence = 2ish/10.

Hard TR Bambi.

Ah, so we're playing the game again...cool. This cute penguin is sad that Math and Gamma at least got quoted, but he was completely left out.

Why do you hard tr bambi...

VOTE: Penguin

sigh if we're actually playing the game i'm doing this

VOTE: Penguin

sigh if we're actually playing the game i'm doing this

Reason?

Fun note...Math doesn't want to actually play the game.

gut + PoE

have pushed a lot of strategies in open games and your reaction is most similar to scum reactions in my experience

Edit: yeah if you take that statement completely out of context and ignore all the posts before and after it detailing my strategy for this unique setup, sure

So..Math is all about setup spec, meta, and PLs against game rules? Don't play the game!

VOTE: Math

P-sure this needs to go. Might re-eval in the morning after the beer.

i have absolutely 0 clue how you could read this and interpret this game as me OMGUSing Penguin

[Gamma Emerald]

Also

You only respect my scumplay

Because you've never seen it

Upon review, this is basically true.

No offence, but having seen it........

Let's just say Smart is town now. The kinds of lines of questioning/arguments I assumed he would easily fake as scum are not things I'm seeing in his scumgames.

Town by meta: Smart/Red

NSG is weird. I just got out of a game where I lock-towned her as a reaction test specifically to see if she'd get all paranoid of me, under the assumption that she would only do so as town. I was just about to use that tell to townread her but now I realise that of fucking course she'd intentionally fish for townreads by doing that after

I literally told her that's the reaction I was fishing for last game

.
So I'm back to null there. NSG being at null is a very uncomfortable gamestate.

Incidentally, in the same (completely Open) game, Bambi fakeclaimed jailkeeper as VT thinking the real jailkeeper wouldn't counterclaim. And also repeatedly jumped off scumwagons to try to flashlynch me and obvtown Almost50. So you'll understand my sentiment of "town wins the sooner Bambi gets lynched".
Sentiment holds until I get a hardcore promise of not lying as town. Some players can do it effectively, but only after becoming good townies in the first place.

CT's argument on Not_Mafia is either really good (if she's town), or her play so far has been politically motivated. Can explain this more in depth if need be but paranoia of her holds.

And Gamma is... honestly Occam's Razor just suggests he's town, but self-reminder to go check his scumrange at some point, because I need to get better at reading him.

Assuming Bambi is just hardcore PL-able town, my current potential scumteams for consideration are:
Penguin/NSG
Penguin/CT
Penguin/N_M
NSG/N_M
NSG/CT

Might be able to rule some of these out in a bit. Still haven't looked up Penguin at all.

Math what is your Redflavor meta
I'm using JK9++ and Newbie 1949 (both games where I replaced into his slot)

[Gamma Emerald]

@gamma

what do you think about Penguin and cheeky at this point?

I think I agree with what Math is saying on Penguin but I don't want to lynch Penguin yet
Cheeky not really sure what I'm thinking of them yet

[Mathdino]

The weird calculus for me is that lynching/scumreading the most anti-Mathdino player almost always comes up town. DiamondSentinel, TheGoldenParadox, UnaBombaH, the worst, Dunkerdoodles (Creature's game), CultofAthena, etc.

And one would think "oh well scum wouldn't go after Mathdino because he's not actually easy to lynch and he tends to get anti-Mathdino players wagoned". But a lot of the scumteams in those games don't actually know me either.

I'll take CT's word on Penguin for now, with the caveat that if the scumteam is NOT {NSG, N_M}, I have to look in {CT, Penguin}.

[CheekyTeeky]

RC pushes for policy lynches on players he thinks are better as scum than town?

If I'm wrong on Penguin I'm quickly heading toward a scumteam of {NSG}+{CT or N_M}.

VOTE: northsidegal

god help me if this is town

Edit: I was scumreading him before he was pushing me at all. Literally what happened FMPOV is

- Mathdino pushes for setup spec and policy lynches
- People get annoyed, suggest real scumhunting
- I go "well if we're playing the game..." and vote Penguin because he was my strongest scumread
- Penguin asks me to explain
- I do so
- Penguin flips shit at me "not playing the game"

You literally just said you were sure she's town.

VOTE: Mathdino

[Mathdino]

Math, NSG reacted in a somewhat similar way... so why is she so strongly town?

wait fuck i mixed up

i thought i explained the mixup already

is why i was all weirded out about NSG's weirded-out-ness

okay i actually do think NSG is town *for now*

NSG is weird. I just got out of a game where I lock-towned her as a reaction test specifically to see if she'd get all paranoid of me, under the assumption that she would only do so as town. I was just about to use that tell to townread her but now I realise that of fucking course she'd intentionally fish for townreads by doing that after

I literally told her that's the reaction I was fishing for last game

.
So I'm back to null there. NSG being at null is a very uncomfortable gamestate.

And you're once again proving you're straight up not reading my posts.

- You claimed I hadn't provided reasoning on Penguin when I clearly had, multiple times.

- You claimed I OMGUS'd Penguin when an ancillary check shows I didn't, and Penguin voted me AFTER I GAVE REASONING.

- You now think I said I was sure NSG was town? I already explained that I mixed up my games and I can't really talk more about that.

When I changed my mind in 272, I figured "oh, well NSG's paranoia of my townread is exactly what I'd expect from town-NSG, that seems reasonable". But then Tit for Tat ending made me remember that I staged a reaction test and told her straight up that I was fishing for that same paranoia, and would've townread her more had she been more paranoid of me.

This whole "what's Mathdino's read on NSG" is a continual weirdness every time we're in the same game together. But scum almost always plays to a slightly outdated town meta, and I think that's what NSG is doing right now. There's nothing in her ISO that indicates town to me.

[CheekyTeeky]

NSG how do you feel about Math's progression on his read of you?

[Mathdino]

FWIW, I don't think NSG's read progression on me is ever actually alignment indicative. It's just a thing that she could easily fake as scum.

The reason I'm actually putting her as scum is that she's not playing her towngame, and her towngame is usually pretty effortless to pull off (as town).

[Mathdino]

also why are you not acknowledging the fact that you're you've misread my posts 3 times

[CheekyTeeky]

And you're once again proving you're straight up not reading my posts.

- You claimed I hadn't provided reasoning on Penguin when I clearly had, multiple times.

- You claimed I OMGUS'd Penguin when an ancillary check shows I didn't, and Penguin voted me AFTER I GAVE REASONING.

- You now think I said I was sure NSG was town? I already explained that I mixed up my games and I can't really talk more about that.

I'm reading, I might not be showing my thoughts clearly.

I never said you hadn't, I asked you to explain your scum read on him that didn't include his reaction to your controversial tracker theory. I feel like you're not really considering his posts or mine in an objective way.

I shouldn't have used the term OMGUS, I meant that I felt like you guys were voting each other for disagreeing with each other's ideas and playstyle. To me it's just an ego battle.

You did say you were sure here:

Post 272

Now calm down, and let NSG answer please.

[Mathdino]

i don't know where you found confidence in that read

like i'm pretty obvious when i'm confident about my townreads; "for now" means "I acknowledge she's basically playing her scum meta, but she's literally more likely to be town and I'm gonna leave her alone while I go through reevaluation"
i also would really really hate to mislynch NSG out of the next 2 games considering she's the only person in this game i can read with a reasonable degree of confidence

but yeah Red-town, Smart-town, Penguin-town-for-now-I-guess-until-I-metadive, and CT/N_M-not-the-scumteam narrows it down a lot
to the point where "NSG is playing her scum meta" basically means she's scum

[Mathdino]

but yes i will back off am willing to wait a few days or more for NSG to answer

[CheekyTeeky]

The worst thing about your OMG I might TR NSG reaction in 272 is the context. She was agreeing that the mod may have unwittingly confirmed you as town just before your AHA moment. And then you vote her using PoE as your reasoning this page when she hasn't done anything since you thought her town. I'm sorry I don't buy it, nor does your scrambling defense convince me you're town.

I'm feeling scum is in Math, NM, Red at this point.

[Mathdino]

So you think I ALSO faked the AHA moment? Like I in no way think that mixing up the games and forgetting to finish a post about it is alignment indicative, but thinking that I timed the "finding an unfinished post" thing as a political response to NSG townreading me and then reversing my read on her this page...
Like I acknowledge that you see inconsistency. Everyone sees inconsistency in my reads progressions at times, fucking whatever.
But what I'm not understanding is wtf you think my scumplan here is. Great, I got NSG to think I'm near conftown... and now I'm trying to remove her from the game? Why NSG over literally any of the 6 players in this game who aren't Smart?

[CheekyTeeky]

So you think I ALSO faked the AHA moment? Like I in no way think that mixing up the games and forgetting to finish a post about it is alignment indicative, but thinking that I timed the "finding an unfinished post" thing as a political response to NSG townreading me and then reversing my read on her this page...
Like I acknowledge that you see inconsistency. Everyone sees inconsistency in my reads progressions at times, fucking whatever.
But what I'm not understanding is wtf you think my scumplan here is. Great, I got NSG to think I'm near conftown... and now I'm trying to remove her from the game? Why NSG over literally any of the 6 players in this game who aren't Smart?

I'm not getting drawn into a game of WIFOM with you. I could have asked the same about you accepting my read on Penguin and still thinking I'm scum. Why would I convince you to look objectively at someone you're likely misreading? Who cares. WIFOM is useless.