Micro 792: Three in One (Day 6)

Micro Games (9 players or fewer). Archived during the 2023 queue overhaul.
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Post Post #600 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:43 am

Post by northsidegal »

In post 599, Gamma Emerald wrote:Why are you scumreading him for something you know that is just a thing he does then (being bad at realtime interaction)? And what is playing politically?
i'm saying that's what i know if his
scumgame
, that he's worse at realtime interaction as scum than as town.

playing "politically" is fabricating your reads in such a way to try to get rid of players where it hurts you to have them around and keeping around players that benefit you to have them around. an example for mathdino would be keeping newbies around who townread a loud / dominant playstyle and getting rid of the more experienced players who might see through it. something_smart can probably describe this better than i can.

in this game, i think math's "political" play is evident in the way that he backed off of all of his scumreads before me after it was clear that it wasn't working for him.
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Post Post #601 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:44 am

Post by Something_Smart »

In post 600, northsidegal wrote:playing "politically" is fabricating your reads in such a way to try to get rid of players where it hurts you to have them around and keeping around players that benefit you to have them around. an example for mathdino would be keeping newbies around who townread a loud / dominant playstyle and getting rid of the more experienced players who might see through it. something_smart can probably describe this better than i can.
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Post Post #602 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:09 am

Post by Gamma Emerald »

In post 600, northsidegal wrote:
In post 599, Gamma Emerald wrote:Why are you scumreading him for something you know that is just a thing he does then (being bad at realtime interaction)? And what is playing politically?
i'm saying that's what i know if his
scumgame
, that he's worse at realtime interaction as scum than as town.

playing "politically" is fabricating your reads in such a way to try to get rid of players where it hurts you to have them around and keeping around players that benefit you to have them around. an example for mathdino would be keeping newbies around who townread a loud / dominant playstyle and getting rid of the more experienced players who might see through it. something_smart can probably describe this better than i can.

in this game, i think math's "political" play is evident in the way that he backed off of all of his scumreads before me after it was clear that it wasn't working for him.
ok thanks
so you're saying Mathdino is playing politically for this game or future ones?
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Post Post #603 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:10 am

Post by northsidegal »

I'm describing his play this game.
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Post Post #604 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:12 am

Post by Gamma Emerald »

I get that but are you saying your lynch is beneficial for this or future game for MD, and why?
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Post Post #605 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:14 am

Post by northsidegal »

In post 604, Gamma Emerald wrote:I get that but are you saying your lynch is beneficial for this or future game for MD, and why?
i'm not making that argument.
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Post Post #606 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:14 am

Post by Gamma Emerald »

In post 605, northsidegal wrote:
In post 604, Gamma Emerald wrote:I get that but are you saying your lynch is beneficial for this or future game for MD, and why?
i'm not making that argument.
Then how is he playing politically if neither of those are true?
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Post Post #607 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:17 am

Post by northsidegal »

oh, sorry – i misread what you said, i thought you were just talking about future games.

i mean, my lynch is beneficial for him in the sense that someone who's pushing him as scum dies, but i'm not making the argument that he's scum
just because
he's pushing me. i also think you may be slightly misunderstanding the true essence of playing "politically" – in this game i would say it's more manifested itself through his dropped pushes.
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Post Post #608 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:22 am

Post by Gamma Emerald »

In post 607, northsidegal wrote:oh, sorry – i misread what you said, i thought you were just talking about future games.

i mean, my lynch is beneficial for him in the sense that someone who's pushing him as scum dies, but i'm not making the argument that he's scum
just because
he's pushing me. i also think you may be slightly misunderstanding the true essence of playing "politically" – in this game i would say it's more manifested itself through his dropped pushes.
Okay, talk with me about those then.
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Post Post #609 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:22 am

Post by Gamma Emerald »

UNVOTE: NSG
I think this is probably town discourse, kinda feel like a scum would push me just a little
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Post Post #610 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:36 am

Post by RedFlavor »

Gonna read whole thread in penguin's style
"
Everytime RedFlavor posts, gods toss a coin.
" -chesskid3
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Post Post #611 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:37 am

Post by Mathdino »

In post 551, CheekyTeeky wrote:I feel like it's getting to a point where we have to lynch one or the other for our sanity, and following Math's logic that: If NSG is town, even though he caused a mislynch, he is still town... It's probably better to lynch Math as he's saying her flip isn't going to determine his alignment anyway.
wat

If NSG is scum, my alignment is indeterminate. I can't honestly tell you I don't bus in micros, because I have.

If NSG is town, I'm town by virtue of "what the fuck is Math doing trying to get a mislynch on town-NSG hurting his future games".

If I'm town, NSG is highly likely scum, because I'm likely right.

If I'm scum, NSG alignment is still indeterminate, because something something godly busplay.

You lynch the more likely person to be scum.
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Post Post #612 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:41 am

Post by Mathdino »

In post 577, northsidegal wrote:i can't ignore a read just because of the setup, and the counter to what mathdino is saying holds perfectly true for me. if "why would scum mathdino try to lynch nsg" is a point you're going to make, how can you ignore "why would scum nsg try to lynch mathdino"?
Points for creativity, but it doesn't work backwards at all.

I've never at any point said "yep NSG believes she can read me perfectly". Hell, I have strong reason NOT to believe that you believe that, given Tit for Tat, where you shot someone because you thought I was scum.

So unless your argument is "scum-NSG just wants Dino around in later games because he's fun to play with", that's a trash argument.
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Post Post #613 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:43 am

Post by Something_Smart »

In post 611, Mathdino wrote:If NSG is town, I'm town by virtue of "what the fuck is Math doing trying to get a mislynch on town-NSG hurting his future games".
In post 595, Something_Smart wrote:He would have to be playing an extremely self-assured scumgame to be planning for the future in addition to trying to win this game, and since there are apparently several people here who know his scumgame I'd think that as scum he would prioritize winning this game (since he'd HAVE to do that to not be eliminated) over anything else in the later games.
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Post Post #614 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:44 am

Post by northsidegal »

In post 611, Mathdino wrote: wat

If NSG is scum, my alignment is indeterminate. I can't honestly tell you I don't bus in micros, because I have.

If NSG is town, I'm town by virtue of "what the fuck is Math doing trying to get a mislynch on town-NSG hurting his future games".

If I'm town, NSG is highly likely scum, because I'm likely right.

If I'm scum, NSG alignment is still indeterminate, because something something godly busplay.

You lynch the more likely person to be scum.
To be frank, saying "if nsg is town i'm town because I'd never push her as scum" and "if i'm town nsg is scum because i'm right" is an idiotic double standard.
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Post Post #615 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:46 am

Post by Something_Smart »

The first part is just idiotic in general.
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Post Post #616 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:46 am

Post by Mathdino »

In post 594, northsidegal wrote:
In post 592, Gamma Emerald wrote:
In post 588, northsidegal wrote:could you explain how it doesn't make sense to you?
It's as Math said; if he believes he can read you why would he want you out of the game d1, where if you lose he can't keep you around to read in future games?
why would
i
want math out of the game when i respect his townplay and feel that i have a pretty good grasp on his scumgame?
Respecting my townplay only works if we both roll town.

Like the whole point of this is that I think I can read you, and am thus more dangerous to you on opposite alignments.

I mean do you think I should just be townreading you for the OMGUS?
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Post Post #617 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:47 am

Post by Errantparabola »

Votecount 1.7


Gamma Emerald
(3): Not_Mafia, Something_Smart, PenguinPower
Mathdino
(2): Bambietta Basterbine, northsidegal
northsidegal
(2): Mathdino, Red Flavor
Not_Mafia
(1): CheekyTeeky

Not Voting
(1): Gamma Emerald

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to achieve a lynch.
Deadline in (expired on 2018-03-26 09:00:00)
did another ms user do something lovely? recognize their achievements here!

Today's modern mafia consumer demands dozens, nay, hundreds of roles that are vanilla cops.
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Post Post #618 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:47 am

Post by northsidegal »

In post 612, Mathdino wrote:
In post 577, northsidegal wrote:i can't ignore a read just because of the setup, and the counter to what mathdino is saying holds perfectly true for me. if "why would scum mathdino try to lynch nsg" is a point you're going to make, how can you ignore "why would scum nsg try to lynch mathdino"?
Points for creativity, but it doesn't work backwards at all.

I've never at any point said "yep NSG believes she can read me perfectly". Hell, I have strong reason NOT to believe that you believe that, given Tit for Tat, where you shot someone because you thought I was scum.

So unless your argument is "scum-NSG just wants Dino around in later games because he's fun to play with", that's a trash argument.
You are not responding to the point i'm actually making.
In post 594, northsidegal wrote:
In post 592, Gamma Emerald wrote:
In post 588, northsidegal wrote:could you explain how it doesn't make sense to you?
It's as Math said; if he believes he can read you why would he want you out of the game d1, where if you lose he can't keep you around to read in future games?
why would
i
want math out of the game when i respect his townplay and feel that i have a pretty good grasp on his scumgame?
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Post Post #619 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:49 am

Post by Mathdino »

In post 614, northsidegal wrote:
In post 611, Mathdino wrote: wat

If NSG is scum, my alignment is indeterminate. I can't honestly tell you I don't bus in micros, because I have.

If NSG is town, I'm town by virtue of "what the fuck is Math doing trying to get a mislynch on town-NSG hurting his future games".

If I'm town, NSG is highly likely scum, because I'm likely right.

If I'm scum, NSG alignment is still indeterminate, because something something godly busplay.

You lynch the more likely person to be scum.
To be frank, saying "if nsg is town i'm town because I'd never push her as scum" and "if i'm town nsg is scum because i'm right" is an idiotic double standard.
Something something conditionals, something something propositional logic.

It's not a double standard because the scenario here is town-Math and scum-NSG. So when I say "If NSG is town" I'm describing an improbable scenario anyway, but under that improbable scenario, I'm still HIGHLY LIKELY town.

Like I can write up a rough "where I'm at in Bayesian terms" here but I don't think anyone would care about that.
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Post Post #620 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:52 am

Post by Mathdino »

In post 613, Something_Smart wrote:
In post 611, Mathdino wrote:If NSG is town, I'm town by virtue of "what the fuck is Math doing trying to get a mislynch on town-NSG hurting his future games".
In post 595, Something_Smart wrote:He would have to be playing an extremely self-assured scumgame to be planning for the future in addition to trying to win this game, and since there are apparently several people here who know his scumgame I'd think that as scum he would prioritize winning this game (since he'd HAVE to do that to not be eliminated) over anything else in the later games.
The more times I repeat it without fully explaining it, the sillier/more idiotic it's going to sound.

I've laid out all the assumptions you'd have to make before agreeing with "If NSG is town, I'm town". That's an argument I'm mainly making to respond to Cheeky's "we have to flip one to determine the other's alignment", because I think she has it wrong. That's ALSO an argument for "NSG shouldn't be scumreading me for this". But it's not one I particularly care to focus on that much.

See here for the full argument:
In post 544, Mathdino wrote:NSG townflip in my opinion does clear me because of the logic I used above. You'd have to believe the following:
- Scum-me plays to future wincons (not a stretch, I don't see why you wouldn't believe this)
- I believe my future wincon will be town (I also openly prefer town)
- Town-me believes the game is easier to win when NSG is in the game because she's easy to read (also not a stretch, I literally have a spreadsheet with data on NSG's meta)
- Town-me believes there isn't anyone else in the playerlist that I would find easier to read, thus making NSG literally the worst possible D1/D2 mislynch for scum-me right now
And I guess you'd also have to mix that with
- This isn't some elaborate WIFOM gambit to sacrifice NSG (and lower my future chances of winning), clear myself as town, and win this game. But me planning all this out requires me to also think that I could successfully mislynch town-NSG (a lolworthy premise given how townish she is as town) AND that people would actually give a shit about this defence in this gamestate.
I think the last point is what people have an issue with.
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Post Post #621 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:53 am

Post by northsidegal »

In post 616, Mathdino wrote:
In post 594, northsidegal wrote:
In post 592, Gamma Emerald wrote:
In post 588, northsidegal wrote:could you explain how it doesn't make sense to you?
It's as Math said; if he believes he can read you why would he want you out of the game d1, where if you lose he can't keep you around to read in future games?
why would
i
want math out of the game when i respect his townplay and feel that i have a pretty good grasp on his scumgame?
Respecting my townplay only works if we both roll town.

Like the whole point of this is that I think I can read you, and am thus more dangerous to you on opposite alignments.

I mean do you think I should just be townreading you for the OMGUS?
why would i be playing towards rolling scum in future games instead of rolling town? you also ignored the second part of what i said.

i don't think i implied anything of the sort?
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Post Post #622 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:55 am

Post by Mathdino »

this is going to be a really silly question, human to human i'm so sorry

Do you think
that I think
that you think
that you can read me correctly almost 100% of the time?
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Post Post #623 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:02 am

Post by Mathdino »

Also, if you're trying to use the argument back at me, you're acknowledging that it objectively holds ground, right?

So why are you still scumreading me? It's like you're responding to Mathdino saying "NSG is scum because town-NSG realises I'm town" with "But NSG is town from town-Math's perspective by the same argument!"

Like, you haven't refuted it at all outside of the "political push" idea. I maintain that I've been politically playing this game very badly, given that I've antagonised:
- Not_Mafia
- Bambi
- Penguin
- Cheeky
- And finally, you

If I'm gunning for safe pushes, I'm doing a shit-tier job at it.
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Post Post #624 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:07 am

Post by Mathdino »

In post 600, northsidegal wrote:
In post 599, Gamma Emerald wrote:Why are you scumreading him for something you know that is just a thing he does then (being bad at realtime interaction)? And what is playing politically?
i'm saying that's what i know if his
scumgame
, that he's worse at realtime interaction as scum than as town.

playing "politically" is fabricating your reads in such a way to try to get rid of players where it hurts you to have them around and keeping around players that benefit you to have them around. an example for mathdino would be keeping newbies around who townread a loud / dominant playstyle and getting rid of the more experienced players who might see through it. something_smart can probably describe this better than i can.

in this game, i think math's "political" play is evident in the way that he backed off of all of his scumreads before me after it was clear that it wasn't working for him.
I'm not sure where you got the "worse at realtime interaction" idea.

How in god's name is it unreasonable to you that I've been scumreading you off your barren ISO?

Like jesus christ you told me in Anything uPick that "anyone with a grasp of my meta should be scumreading me". So you clearly have it in you to acknowledge when you've been playing to your scum meta. And again, you've ALSO framed me as one of two players who thinks we can read you off like 5 posts.

So reading your first 8 posts, you don't think that town-Mathdino pushes you here?

That's actually insane. You're trying to frame this as "well scum-Mathdino plays like this", when you haven't seen me play like this, when I've already refuted the idea of scum-Mathdino doing this, and to top it off, you haven't explained why town-Mathdino DOESN'T PLAY LIKE THIS. My entire scumread on you is based on "town-NSG doesn't play like this"!
In post 601, Something_Smart wrote:
In post 600, northsidegal wrote:playing "politically" is fabricating your reads in such a way to try to get rid of players where it hurts you to have them around and keeping around players that benefit you to have them around. an example for mathdino would be keeping newbies around who townread a loud / dominant playstyle and getting rid of the more experienced players who might see through it. something_smart can probably describe this better than i can.
Just read jester nightless
tfw something_smart is FMPOV the worst player to have around when i'm scum
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