Micro 798 - Splatoon Mafia - Game Over

[Vartsun]

Oho, who's being hateful and aggressive, breeding toxicity, making people want to participate less and interact with someone less now, hmmmm?

So quick to about face when you're called out for your rubbish.
Mollie played the same 'boohoo Varsoon is picking on me schtick, play nice' schtick just weeks ago in viewtopic.php?f=3&t=75175
And guess what?
They were scum and that strategy was so effective that even when Titus and Mollie were gladiated, Mollie's team went on to pull the W.
REALLY MAKES YOU THINK

Now please, keep suffocating the actual casing being done here by insisting it's a player versus player issue when it is not. Conflating rhetorical conviction as an assault on a player is a tactic that I've seen scum use time and time again and the worst thing about it is that I will still recognize that it's not alignment indicative, but, yes, it does frustrate me to have my legitimate points against a player be hand-waved as 'toxic play' instead of actual game engagement.

This is the last time I'll acknowledge it or ask nicely; Please stop.
If I really have offended Ausuka, they can let me know, and I'll tone down the crass nature of my push and find other words that convey the passion I feel in being correct about and not backing down from my assessment of their PLAY in this GAME.

-V

[skitter30]

Call it gut. I think he's especially scummy, and I wanted to call attention to him.

I don't particularly think he's scummy. He's like, hardnull to me atm.

--

Ausuka's criticized our slot as 'trying to look pro-town'

for giving rationale to our engagement and pushes as we've been making them.

Ausuka, when put on the defensive, pulls out this same self-admitted 'seemingly protown' play.

I don't really know if that was her argument though?

More like she felt you were to look town by trying to look busy? That's not quite the same thing as trying to look town 'for giving rationale to our engagement and pushes as we've been making them'.

Like her point wasn't that you were explaining what you were thinking, but rather that your pushes/questions felt over-explained and almost try-hardy given the stage of the game we were at.

So I feel like this is kinda misrepping her tbh. Especially since you build on that to find her scummy.

--

@skitter, is there anyone you feel is scummy? Also, what are your thoughts on Vartsun?

Mylo; I don't like her brass vote.

I dislike vartsun more than ausuka after reading through their debate. Their push/confidence on ausuka feels too strong for what she actually did at that stage of the game. Thing is I'm not sure if that's a scum thing or a playstyle thing; that might just be how they usually pursue scumreads. Also I dislike the post above from vartsun as explained.

--

92

a) Can you not, like, post things like 'you fucking trash person' and 'please die'?

b)

Ausuka's criticized our slot as 'trying to look pro-town' for giving rationale to our engagement and pushes as we've been making them.

no, this is still wrong, and I don't know why your slot keeps pushing as if I was doing that.

You're ignoring this, but building on your argument from the quoted bit of 78 as a reason to scumread her. Specifically, you're saying that "she's defaulted to what you've admitted is a stance that 'looks-town' " and that she's scummy for pushing you for doing that while doing the same thing, when the above quote clearly states that that's not what she was scumreading you for.

--

I don't get why he stated Varsoon's 'overconfidence' and then lead with nothing else about that. I feel like he's been present but elusive.

a) she

b) I had two problem sets due on Friday, another due on Monday, and came down with the flu again.

c) Cuz idk if that's a playstyle/personality thing from him or a scum thing from him. Reading on, I think that's at least partially personality driven (specifically from 96), and that isn't particularly a reason to scumread him. I do think he's misrepped ausuka repeatedly above though, and I do think *that's* scummy.

--

However, I fully intend to display my conviction with every stride I take and your niceguy arbiter act isn't going to earn you any town points here, kiddo.

I don't think he's trying to earn townpoints. I think he's trying to earn 'this thread doesn't need to turn toxic' points, which I whole-heartedly agree with.

I don't know why you're portraying a call for less toxicity as a grab for towncred.

p-edit: I did not yet read that last post by vartsun.

[Vartsun]

And before you call my frustration feigned or scummy, you can see how I reacted in a much more frustrated and violent way in Death's Diner, to the point where I should have been forced out the game : viewtopic.php?f=56&t=30226
The only thing that saved me there was that I caught a 1 week ban--don't recall what for, though it's very likely for the sort of behavior that I put forth there.
Basically, censoring my points and conflating them to a player v player attack is something that triggers me very heavily and I'd prefer if you would not do that.

-V

[skitter30]

Oho, who's being hateful and aggressive, breeding toxicity, making people want to participate less and interact with someone less now, hmmmm?

So quick to about face when you're called out for your rubbish.
Mollie played the same 'boohoo Varsoon is picking on me schtick, play nice' schtick just weeks ago in viewtopic.php?f=3&t=75175
And guess what?
They were scum and that strategy was so effective that even when Titus and Mollie were gladiated, Mollie's team went on to pull the W.
REALLY MAKES YOU THINK

Now please, keep suffocating the actual casing being done here by insisting it's a player versus player issue when it is not. Conflating rhetorical conviction as an assault on a player is a tactic that I've seen scum use time and time again and the worst thing about it is that I will still recognize that it's not alignment indicative, but, yes, it does frustrate me to have my legitimate points against a player be hand-waved as 'toxic play' instead of actual game engagement.

This is the last time I'll acknowledge it or ask nicely; Please stop.
If I really have offended Ausuka, they can let me know, and I'll tone down the crass nature of my push and find other words that convey the passion I feel in being correct about and not backing down from my assessment of their PLAY in this GAME.

-V

OK, now I get why you're calling that as a grab for towncred.

Like, I get that you find her scummy and that you want to case her, but I think that calling people like "you fucking trash person" is out of line, even if you think she's scum. So, like, can you please not post things like that? Like it makes me very uncomfortable and I'll probably rep out if you continue or if other people post things like that tbh.

Also I don't think HS is suffocating actual casing anywhere.

[Ausuka]

For the record; yes, I do percieve calling me a "fucking trash person" as a personal attack rather than one based on play, and yes, I would appreciate it if you could avoid doing that in the future. Thank you.

[Vartsun]

When did confidence become a scumread thing?
Seriously, are you all so spineless in your approach that when someone's sure of something early on, you're going to project and scumread it?

@Skitter: Awkward, because I feel that Ausuka is misrepping our interrogative playstyle as 'busywork'. THAT'S what I was being critical of.
HS has consistently called my back and forth with Ausuka 'wall posts' and things that make their eyes roll back and all of that. They've perpetuated the awful idea that anything more than shorthand on A FORUM GAME should be snoozed at and glazed over.

I'm sorry for posting that. I was very frustrated with Ausuka's continued misrepresentation of our slot's work and only used that phrase to construe how I felt about their posts. Again, I'll lay off with stuff like that.

P-EDIT: @Ausuka: My apologies then.
I'm still going to be pushing you regardless, and if you take my push personally, quit mafia.

-V

[Vartsun]

><
Sorry,
Again
Too harsh of me.
What I mean to write is that if you still take my push personally, I'm sorry for that and I think you'll have a difficult time on the site if you take players pushing scum cases on you personally.

-V

[Ausuka]

I don't take your push personally; you're not even the only player pushing on me in this game, and if I did take things that like personally I would've stopped playing mafia long ago.

[Vartsun]

Okay.
So.
Now let's step beyond that and focus on the game.
I think I might have to shift gears here.
Do you understand where I'm coming from, Ausuka?
What about my posts don't you understand?

-V

[Vartsun]

With my push/casing, I mean.

-V

[Ausuka]

No, I don't really understand where you're coming from. It seems like the crux of your read is based on an early read I made on post 25; I had little to no conviction in that read, and I'm willing to accept that it was a bad point (which doesn't really make me scum.) However, it feels like you are twisting my read from "trying to look town with a fakeish tone" into "you're playing pro-town, so you're scum." and even after I have explained this you still seem to be pushing me from that. And I don't see why you think that all the votes I made have been made with "little justification until after the fact." My vote on HS was pure RVS, and my vote on Voyc was explained in the post I made it. I will admit that I should have put my justification in post 25 itself, but I explained the vote soon afterwards, and I don't see how that's scummy anyway. Additionally, it felt like up to this point, it felt like you were more concerned with lynching my slot than sorting it, despite the fact that it's still the start of d1 and no reads are that strong right now.
You also say I'm scum for giving rationale when I criticized you for giving rationale, but this is invalid, because me criticizing you for giving rationale never happened.

[Human Sequencer]

varsoon i never even mentioned your points on ausuka
i actually generally agreed with them
i was pushing the same fucking wagon, are you even paying attention?

my point is that you were (and still are) being an anti-town abrasive dick about it
i never even mentioned the actual points
i never handwaved them away as you say i did

your mention of the mollie case study is also irrelevant, because ausuka didn't complain until i called you out on it
she never refused to interact with any points whatsoever, in fact she's responding to them right now
so unless you think we're scumpartners i don't see how it's relevant?
and if you think we're scumpartners i would love to hear how and why

and then you have the balls to go around pretending like your antisocial, abusive playstyle is just because you're not 'spineless' like everybody else
it's called being decent and considerate
maybe when you start shouting a little less you'll actually remember what those words mean

[skitter30]

When did confidence become a scumread thing?

Seriously, are you all so spineless in your approach that when someone's sure of something early on, you're going to project and scumread it?

This isn't what I said. I said that your push felt overconfidant *for that stage of the game and what she actually did*. It feels too strong of a push to me for what actually happened. I don't know if that's a reason to scurmead you, which is why I didn't call you scummy for it, so much as it makes me not really like your push. I thought that the confidence might be a personality thing, and your later posts have kinda confirmed that thought.

Maybe I'm not getting what you're saying about auska.

Can you eli5 the connection you're drawing between the following and her saying she thought you're trying to look busy?

Ausuka's criticized our slot as 'trying to look pro-town' for giving rationale to our engagement and pushes as we've been making them.
Ausuka, when put on the defensive, pulls out this same self-admitted 'seemingly protown' play.

Cuz I don't think she's making the argument that the way you're trying to look pro-town is by giving rationale to your engagement etc.

I think she's just saying that your questions felt like busywork. Like you're trying to make yourself look engaged (and thus pro-town) by posting a lot and asking a lot of questions. (I don't particularly agree with this stance btw; this is how I tend to play).

[skitter30]

HS has consistently called my back and forth with Ausuka 'wall posts' and things that make their eyes roll back and all of that. They've perpetuated the awful idea that anything more than shorthand on A FORUM GAME should be snoozed at and glazed over.

Now please, keep suffocating the actual casing being done here by insisting it's a player versus player issue when it is not.

I thought this was referring to the toxicity thing, not to the wall-posting thing.

[Vartsun]

Alright, so, can we sort that into places where we've got a fundamentally different understanding of what's happening?
If I try to break it down...
1. You explained what you thought scum playing as though they were town looked like and accused us of playing that way--because we're actually town, it feels like you're just trying to drown out our engagement.
2. My reasons for pushing you have developed from there, it's just that I feel that the point is still relevant.
3. I don't see your votes as being very explained until they've been given more scrutiny--like I said before, you following up with more justification reads as scummy to me because of how you said that our tone looked fake, but I saw a lot of the same tone in you explaining your reads.
4. I'm merely putting pressure on your slot. It's very important to have conviction when pushing someone. If I was half-assed about it, you could ignore my push altogether and it'd be less effective in generating content--and I need that content to actually further sort your slot and help other players further sort your slot.
5. You criticized us over 'seeming like we were faking town', which I've read as criticism over our engagement and rationale. I'm trying to be transparent so that more people can easily sort us and work with us so that we can figure out who scum are. I don't like it when I push a case and people don't know why I'm even pushing a person.

P-EDIT:
@HS: I refuse to engage with any more posts regarding player versus player toxicity. Please stop and focus on the game at hand.

@Skitter: Ah, I was reading that the rationale + questions = busywork, not just questions = busywork.
If I don't ask questions, though, how am I ever going to learn things?
Should I try to be more transparent with what conclusions people's answers lead me to, or why I'm asking the questions that I am?
I'm already so verbose that some people aren't reading my posts as-is.

-V

[Vartsun]

i look at these wall posts and my eyes roll back into my skull

Current assessment of gamestate: Far too much fight and too little think.

yeah this

vartsun vs. ausuka makes me snooze

voyc

This is what I was talking about, for the record.

-V

[Human Sequencer]

your mention of the mollie case study is also irrelevant, because ausuka didn't complain until i called you out on it
she never refused to interact with any points whatsoever, in fact she's responding to them right now
so unless you think we're scumpartners i don't see how it's relevant?
and if you think we're scumpartners i would love to hear how and why

can you at least respond to this

[Vartsun]

I was levying the criticisms in post 100 against you, not Ausuka.
And, for what it's worth, I actually do think that you could be scumpartners, with the votes happening between you in both RVS and now being a distancing gambit.

-V

[Ausuka]

Alright, so, can we sort that into places where we've got a fundamentally different understanding of what's happening?
If I try to break it down...
1. You explained what you thought scum playing as though they were town looked like and accused us of playing that way--because we're actually town, it feels like you're just trying to drown out our engagement.
2. My reasons for pushing you have developed from there, it's just that I feel that the point is still relevant.
3. I don't see your votes as being very explained until they've been given more scrutiny--like I said before, you following up with more justification reads as scummy to me because of how you said that our tone looked fake, but I saw a lot of the same tone in you explaining your reads.
4. I'm merely putting pressure on your slot. It's very important to have conviction when pushing someone. If I was half-assed about it, you could ignore my push altogether and it'd be less effective in generating content--and I need that content to actually further sort your slot and help other players further sort your slot.
5. You criticized us over 'seeming like we were faking town', which I've read as criticism over our engagement and rationale. I'm trying to be transparent so that more people can easily sort us and work with us so that we can figure out who scum are. I don't like it when I push a case and people don't know why I'm even pushing a person.

1. I mean, it's not like I can't be wrong about a weak read on page 2. I just felt like you were making an effort to look towny, if that makes sense? I've already said I'm willing to admit it's a bad read, but the way you've interacted with me after that is what makes me scumread you.
2. fair enough.
3. No, I often don't give reads exactly when I place votes, and that's probably a bad habit, but I don't see why it makes me more likely to be scum? And I don't think I have the same tone that you did at all.
4. Yeah, okay. I felt like you were pushing me rather than trying to sort me because at some point you stopped responding to me, which seems counter-productive if the aim is to sort my slot.
5. I've already admitted that my point there was weak, and it's not about rationale and engagement- it was basically just a toneread that you were trying to look towny? idk, if I could explain it well, I would've done it already.

[Vartsun]

@HS: I actually was holding that notion in my back pocket because I hate coming up with associative and teams when there's not any mod-confirmed info to work with (flips, etc), but I think it's awkward that you'd bring it up like that.



-V

[Human Sequencer]

you weren't actually attacking me though
so it's still irrelevant
:omegathink:

[Vartsun]

@Ausuka: I wish you could explain it better.
Who do you think is scum, at this point, and why?

[Human Sequencer]

i bought it up cuz i was curious to see how the fuck you'd justify such a read

but your response wasn't too bad i don't think

[Vartsun]

you weren't actually attacking me though
so it's still irrelevant
:omegathink:

I'm saying that conflating a player's push with an out-of-game issue is problematic for lots of reasons, even moreso as a scum gambit.

I'd prefer if we could not talk about it, please, at least until post.
It's something that I have a lot of difficultly being calm about.

-V

[Vartsun]

i bought it up cuz i was curious to see how the fuck you'd justify such a read

but your response wasn't too bad i don't think

It pinged me kind of hard when Ausuka was quick to put you at L-2 but then when I gave their wagon a lot of pressure, they've admitted that going hard on someone early-game is not something they feel is normal (not exact words, I can't recall how they phrased it but they didn't like it). I guess that my rhetorical conviction was higher than their mechanical vote conviction in post 11, though.

Similarly, you've swept back to vote Ausuka but I'm actually not entirely sure of your reasons for doing so. It also felt weird that you'd ask them to go with you on a Voyc wagon, but then you went back and voted them when Voyc didn't really produce much content despite the vote pressure. I'm not entirely sure what it is about Voyc's post that had you make the moves you did.
Like, it's hard for me to follow your justification of going from being voted by Ausuka --> Asking Ausuka to vote Voyc with you --> Voting Ausuka.
I don't get it, and if you could help me understand, that'd help a lot.

-V