Micro 814: Geriatric Trio (Mafia Victory!!!)

[RedCoyote]

@RedCoyote - hito said not utilizing a vote is 10 million percent scummy

Gotcha. I missed that.

---

Invisibility:
Just a couple of one-liners, but these one-liners actually feel towny to me because I can very much empathize with his post #39 and I believe town might be more likely than scum to admit these kind of things (scum want to seem like they're doing a lot of scumhunting to seem towny and can fake reads at any point.) The vote in post #17 would've also been quite bold coming from scum.

I agree with this point, and I want Invisibility to stick around.

Based on reads I want to vote Cheesy at the moment, but since I'm not really familiar with this site's voting mechanics (I'm used to plurality deadline lynches) I don't know if it's a good idea to put somebody at L-1 this early. Can anyone help me out here?

If you think a vote is warranted, then I say go for it. I don't think we're quite at hat stage yet, but I have been slacking on activity. Ultimately, your vote should be representative of you and not what is politically acceptable.

---

My suspicion of Music Box is starting to rise. This game is hardly a font of over-posting. But looking at his ISO there really is nothing there.

I agree, but there's not much I can add here. This slot is worthy of pressure if it would make a difference.

I also see something in 48 that I think is a pretty reliable scum tell. But I need some context from a few others to assess whether I am on to something or not.

The only thing that struck me as a little questionable and telling was the end. I don't like people, especially on D1, asking advice on how to use their vote. It's a minor issue for me.

@Hito and RC – What would you say your read on Invisibility (Town – Null – Scum and I don’t care what strength) right now.

Town. I agree with Komala's assessment. He didn't really react to my vote how I thought he would, but that's a good thing. His 39 is the one post that sticks out as awkward, but since I agree with the sentiment I don't want to be too critical. If I had to bet right now, I'd bet town.

---

Tough to say. I don't really mind leaving votes on slots when players replace, because it's the same alignment and anyway high pressure is a good way for replacements to show their colors. But on the other hand, this seems like one of those slow games where I have to create a lot of the content for it to really move forward (notice that since my cheesy post like half of the game posts are just agreeing with me). So even though Cheesy-slot would still be my biggest suspect if they flake, I'll need to chase down some other line of thought just for something to do and probably I'll need my vote for that.

I appreciate this comment. I appreciate it and hate it at the same time because it makes me feel bad. Relatedly, most times as town I get the impression I'm just spinning my wheels, especially in games like this. In a sense, you need one or two good dramatic actors in your game. At least that makes it more attractive. So far, everyone in the game seems very even keel.

---

Reaching is pretty standard by both alignments.

Agreed, but it's early game. Do you hold it against Oath?

[RedCoyote]

Somewhat unfortunately, I didn't get anything unsavory off of Kmd's starting posts. I don't see a place to move my vote, however. Therefore, I'm deciding to let it stand for the moment. I'll hopefully get to exchange a couple more volleys with Kmd.

[Kmd4390]

RedCoyote, no that's exactly what I'm saying. We get started by reaching, questioning little things, and reading reactions. Town and scum both do it. It's just how you start a mafia game.

[nonny]

MagnaofIllusion and nonny require prods

Searching for a replacement for RedCoyote

I’m here, busy weekend with the kids >.< will catch up and do full post tonight.

[Music Box]

In post 48, I asked a question to you specifically and also whether it's a good idea to put somebody at L-1 in the early game, which seems like something you have an opinion on considering this post, so why didn't you answer my questions?

I put off answering that because I wanted to get replies to my questions in 54 before doing so, in case my comments affected the responses to that. Re: Oath; it was mainly a gut feeling. Re: L-1; no it's not good to put someone at L-1 in early game because of the risk of an accidental - or intentional - early hammer before they have a chance to claim.

Music box, do you find Oath, cheesy, and nonny scummy for believing L-1 votes should have been made?

None of them actually said they believed that. I was asking them to clarify what they did mean. Happy with Oath's response, but still think that nonny saying that cheesy should have continued the wagon sort of implies it.

Music Box, vote in your next post.

I'll vote when I'm ready, which I'm not yet.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Prod acknowledged ...

This weekend has been super busy and I haven't had a chance to actually even read much on phone.

I'll put together some responses and thoughts by Monday night.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Prod acknowledged ...

This weekend has been super busy and I haven't had a chance to actually even read much on phone.

I'll put together some responses and thoughts by Monday night.

[Oath]

Am I still voting RC? Because if so, I'm content with that vote still.

[nonny]

Cheesy is your least suspicious but you want to vote for him? Am I reading your list correctly?

No, I think you're reading my list upside down. I believe I mentioned town reading Invisibility and being suspicious of Cheesy, so why did you think Cheesy was my least suspicious?

The way the list was set up was just throwing me off. The --null-- made it seem like below that was null. Also, I'm just used to seeing lists more labeled or listed most to least. I assumed I was reading it incorrectly but asked for clarification because I didn't want to just assume.

Based on reads I want to vote Cheesy at the moment, but since I'm not really familiar with this site's voting mechanics (I'm used to plurality deadline lynches) I don't know if it's a good idea to put somebody at L-1 this early. Can anyone help me out here?

If you think a vote is warranted, then I say go for it. I don't think we're quite at hat stage yet, but I have been slacking on activity. Ultimately, your vote should be representative of you and not what is politically acceptable.

The quote from Komala does stand out as odd. Where else do you play that mechanics are that different? If you feel like a vote would help then apply it but if it is L-1 make sure it's announced.

On the other side the response from Coyote is slightly off putting to me, mostly that last sentence. I'm not sure Komala's hesitancy was based on being politically acceptable vs being unfamiliar with game play. Adding that last piece of advice alters the context of the original post in a way. Makes it read like Komala was trying to sheep or appease to an audience as it were. I may be reading into this but thought it worth picking apart.

This was the part I was focusing on. Not saying he had to vote for Oath. He was telling others to vote for someone else. He happened to already be parked there from RVS. Either, he didn't believe in the Oath wagon like the claimed in that very same post, or he was trying to split the town between to wagons while supporting both.

Post 24 doesn't read to me like Cheesy was scumreading Oath much, if at all. Just that he could understand the wagon on him. So it makes sense for him to vote someone else.

RE:Oath: His wagon's justified, Music Box and Invisibility should be commended for helping it unfold. Meanwhile, I find Coyote's reaction really weird. Instead of pushing the wagon forwards, in hopes of getting a strong reaction- especially that he agrees with the reasoning- he's voting Invisibility?

Maybe I'm naive but stating a wagon is justified implies some scum read. Why would a wagon be justified on someone you town read? Again, it stood out as odd to support a wagon and push a new one at the same time. Its an odd juxtaposition.

[Kmd4390]

Music box, ok, I misunderstood your reasons for asking then.

[Kmd4390]

Is everyone here? I'm working doubles and this game feels slow even to me.

Unvote, Vote Oath

L-1. Talk people.

[Invisibility]

i am very tired

First and foremost, I can give myself more benefit than I give ANYONE else because I know I'm town. That's the only thing I do know right now.

this is gross but i also feels like Oath so idk

Invisibility, RC, hito, MoI are town reads. I don't really feel comfortable with Invisibility being the my town read anymore though. But idk who else is.

care to explain why?

hi people scumreading cheesy is it because he's posting awkwardly and that's scummy?

What do you think the alignment of cheesy/kmd is?

im not really sure because cheesy was acting weird but kmd is being pretty townie so far
it could just be playstyle weirdness from cheesy so let me check his other games to see if that's just his writing style
Back: cheesy has one game from 2016 and i can't really tell because 3 isn't a good enough sample size here and it was 2 years ago there

and that's the end it's actually kind of a disappointing wall tbh
also its delayed sorry but im basically like a video game dev which was my dream job when i was 6 years old

[hitogoroshi]

kmd, how would you feel if someone actually hammered that Oath wagon right now?

Music Box, I don't want to go on my huge rant because idk if you're town or not but "I'll vote when I'm ready" is a real bad road to go on. If you're not scum you know that all the scum are voting, so surely any vote out of you is going to be better than not voting even if you're not super sure about it, because it dilutes the proportion of scum votes. Not to mention the fact that

we

need to read

you

. Vote in your next post.

invisibility <-> cheesy interactions seem weird but nothing I can really put my finger on.

I dunno there's like lots of low grade gross stuff but no one winner. I don't like how reactive Oath is being but I also see where RC's posts don't really have a lot of traction. about my only solid town read right now is Komala because revisiting old reads in ISO 3 is enough effort that I really doubt it's from scum. Yeah yeah you can dislike it all you want but it's a towntell a lot more than it isn't.

I don't really feel "better" per se about cheesy-slot but more convinced that I'll be able to read KMD over time without needing pressure and it didn't get worse or anything, so it feels right to back off for now. I could be sold on a lot of wagons at this venture, but I think for now my heart wants RedCoyote the most because he explictly mentioned that the music box slot is worthy of pressure but then literally five minutes later said that he didn't like his KMD vote but couldn't find a place to move to.

VOTE: RedCoyote

[Kmd4390]

kmd, how would you feel if someone actually hammered that Oath wagon right now?

Somewhere between anxious to see the flip and annoyed not to get a claim first.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok first things first – thank you Hito and RC for your Invisibility read. I want to talk about what I saw in 48 regarding Komala. I like to call it the “Unreasonable Strong Town Read” tell. I’ve noticed that you can find scum giving unreasonable Town reads to players who don’t deserve it based on their posting. I was able to see Implosion as scum doing it in the Thaw and Almost50 in the Geriatric White Flag game recently finished. Both were giving strong Town reads to players Day 1 who definitely didn’t deserve it on the basis of their posting. It’s a version of buddying and my very first impression on reading Komala’s post was that Komala might be USTRing Invisibility. Because that slot at that point should have been absolutely Null best case. And yes, I understand it isn’t a fool proof tell but it puts Komala on my radar.

@Komala and RC

– Please explain why Invisibility’s vote in 17 would be “too bold” coming from scum.

On Oath – I still think the narrative being peddled regarding my “Being better than this” to be pushing Oath and that my suspicions are playstyle difference driven is suspect. I’m curious how she will take being put at L-1.

Nonny gets an ever slight Town lean for me based on 52.

--

If I remember correctly, it went something like this: I saw Oath's post, thought "Wait, why aren't you voting?", then saw Magna's post who suspected Oath for that, went from "Oh yeah, Magna's right that's weird" to "Wait, but is it the scummy kind of weird? Is there scum motivation to not vote in that post or is that just NAI?" and then decided to ask Magna this

Frankly I assumed you were being rhetoric there because Oath and I had already hashed out my thoughts there and I though my stance was pretty clear.

To re-iterate – I think scum have a harder time acting in a natural manner in RVS in general than Town. It’s the part of the game where every little thing might get you scrutiny. I saw Oath’s post as presenting a supposedly ProTown stance that could just as easily been handled in a PM if he was Town. That and lack of RVS vote looked awkward enough to press. Subsequent posts from Oath haven’t made me think it was a pure playstyle difference as Oath is floating. I mean I can show you a game where I caught scum with their very first post if it comes to it. Oath even acknowledges that it is a possibility and has done it herself.

I’d really like you to respond with why you thought the issue needed more clarification.

--

I dunno there's like lots of low grade gross stuff but no one winner. I don't like how reactive Oath is being but I also see where RC's posts don't really have a lot of traction. about my only solid town read right now is Komala because revisiting old reads in ISO 3 is enough effort that I really doubt it's from scum. Yeah yeah you can dislike it all you want but it's a towntell a lot more than it isn't.

This is … I don’t know … strange. Hito I know that you know most any behavior is going to be generally more likely to come from Town than scum because … there are naturally about 3-4 times as much Town as scum. And effort is as much personality driven as it is alignment driven. So yeah ... I think this is a really weak reason to be solidly Townreading Komala.

[Music Box]

This was the part I was focusing on. Not saying he had to vote for Oath. He was telling others to vote for someone else. He happened to already be parked there from RVS. Either, he didn't believe in the Oath wagon like the claimed in that very same post, or he was trying to split the town between to wagons while supporting both.

Post 24 doesn't read to me like Cheesy was scumreading Oath much, if at all. Just that he could understand the wagon on him. So it makes sense for him to vote someone else.

RE:Oath: His wagon's justified, Music Box and Invisibility should be commended for helping it unfold. Meanwhile, I find Coyote's reaction really weird. Instead of pushing the wagon forwards, in hopes of getting a strong reaction- especially that he agrees with the reasoning- he's voting Invisibility?

Maybe I'm naive but stating a wagon is justified implies some scum read. Why would a wagon be justified on someone you town read? Again, it stood out as odd to support a wagon and push a new one at the same time. Its an odd juxtaposition.

It looks like you're ignoring the rest of post 24 where he queries whether what Oath did was actually scummy. And in the part you quoted above - why would he find RC's action "really weird" if he was doing the exactly the same thing himself? He also says "especially that he agrees with the reasoning", which I took as meaning that he himself didn't but had just acknowledged that reasoning had been given for the wagon.

[Aristophanes]

VC 1.6

Oath

(4): MagnaofIllusion 14, Invisibility 17, Komala 66, Kmd4390 85

Kmd4390

(2): RedCoyote 43, nonny 46

RedCoyote

(2): Oath 22, hitogoroshi 87

Not Voting

(1): Music Box 36

Posts reset in (expired on 2018-07-24 12:00:00).
D1 will end when a majority is reached or on July 28/18 at 12pm EST in (expired on 2018-07-28 12:00:00).
With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

Mod Notes:

Komala requires a Prod

[nonny]

I don't think I'm ignoring it MusicBox. My first statement on the matter was that the post was weird, which it is. Are you treating it as stream of consciousness? Because I think that what it's meant to appear as, but even then why wouldn't you clean it up before actually posting it? Saying the first wagon is justified at the least is buddying, but again why would you say a wagon is justified that you don't feel is legitimate?
And yes, he did do the same thing as RC while calling him on it, he can try to paint it differently but they do look similar, I noticed that when skim back through the other day.

What I don't get is why you are so focused on this? What do you feel you've found from this interaction of tearing apart a post(sentence) based on a player who isn't even in game anymore?

[Komala]

Very tired so mostly just answers for now, more later hopefully. Although I might need a replacement at some point due to real life reasons

Am I still voting RC? Because if so, I'm content with that vote still.

What do you think about RC's newer posts?

Where else do you play that mechanics are that different?

A site that's not in English, so I doubt linking it would help, but voting is done very differently there, with votes usually not being used to express scumreads but only to make a decision on who is getting lynched shortly before the deadline, and there being no hammer mechanics at all.

Invisibility, RC, hito, MoI are town reads. I don't really feel comfortable with Invisibility being the my town read anymore though. But idk who else is.

care to explain why?

Whoops, typo, I meant to say "being my top town read". It's because there was so little content from you and I felt like I might have been reading too much into that one post that originally put you at the top of my town list.

@Komala and RC

– Please explain why Invisibility’s vote in 17 would be “too bold” coming from scum.

Well, following someone's naked vote with another naked vote on the same player seems kind of bold to me - it's not surprising someone called him out on this immediately - and I feel like scum tend to be more cautious at this stage of the game. His rather minimalistic explanation that wagons are nice in RVS later on seems believable.

Frankly I assumed you were being rhetoric there because Oath and I had already hashed out my thoughts there and I though my stance was pretty clear.

To re-iterate – I think scum have a harder time acting in a natural manner in RVS in general than Town. It’s the part of the game where every little thing might get you scrutiny. I saw Oath’s post as presenting

a supposedly ProTown stance that could just as easily been handled in a PM if he was Town

. That and lack of RVS vote looked awkward enough to press. Subsequent posts from Oath haven’t made me think it was a pure playstyle difference as Oath is floating. I mean I can show you a game where I caught scum with their very first post if it comes to it. Oath even acknowledges that it is a possibility and has done it herself.

I’d really like you to respond with why you thought the issue needed more clarification.

My question was in #23, shortly after your #14, so that was before you elaborated on it. I believe I understand it now. By the way, I think the bolded part (my bold) might have been the issue I had with that post.

TR on Magna increasing. I like how he asked others about their reads on Invisibility to see if my town read on him was unreasonable. Despite being wrong about this, his reasoning makes sense and seems genuine. Questioning his own reads like that, if genuine, is of course very towny.

Also, I don't really want to be townread for effort when I'm doing so little this game and keep getting prodded
I'm not sure how I feel about hito regarding this right now, will look at it later, right now I'm just kind of embarassed xD

[Kmd4390]

Well...

Some people are posting. Some are not. Not much about my vote, unfortunately. And I don't have much to say on the posts since mine. Deadline is approaching and in such a slow game, less will happen between now and then than what normally would in that time.

I'm bored and want things to happen.

Gonna take a quick glance at ISOs, focusing on votes, and see if anything new stands out...

Hito:
-RVS vote on RedCoyote
-Vote on Cheesy next post
-Recent vote on RedCoyote
---Looks fine to me. He explains his votes. Followed up on Cheesy despite the replace out. Interested to see what happens after the RedCoyote vote. Nothing here suggests Hito is scum.

Ivisibility:
-RVS vote on Music Box
-Votes Oath for sake of wagoning (correct me if I misunderstood this)
---Vote has stayed on Oath since Post 17. Later said only opinion is Hito is town. The only mention of Oath after the vote is "gross but...feels like Oath".
-----Invisibility, what are your thoughts on Oath now? If you had to guess a scum team, what would it be?

Komala:
-RVS vote on Hito
-Unvotes, stating a town read on Hito
-Puts Oath at L-2, some original reasoning, some Magna's. Mostly original.
---Actually seems better than I remembered.

Magna:
-Votes Oath in first post. Stays there.
---I feel like I remember Magna being the tunnely type, but can't remember if that changes with his alignment. *shrug*

Music Box:
-RVS vote on Invisibility
-Naked votes Oath. Says in next post she agreed with reasoning from Magna but...
-Immediately unvotes. Likes Oath's response. Hasn't voted since.
---I'm echoing Hito saying he'd like more votes from Music Box. Makes it easier to read her if we know where her head is at.
-----Pretty sure I remember from my catchup typing out a question about what you liked about Oath's response, saw someone else ask, and deleted my own question. But I don't see an answer from you so either you failed to answer or I'm misremembering. Either way, I'd like to know. What did you like about it?

nonny:
-RVS votes Komala for being first to post.
-Puts Cheesy at L-2. I'm curious why this vote didn't come in Post 31. Vote has stayed there since.
---Nonny's posting seems more like justifying her own vote than pushing the scum read itself, if that makes sense. Not sure what to make of that.

Oath:
-Votes RedCoyote. Clarifies it is an "actual vote". Vote hasn't moved.
---It's weird that most of Oath's ISO is back and forth with Magna, who Oath is scumreading if I'm not mistaken, yet her vote remains on RedCoyote who gets two mentions after the vote (the first is just "RedCoyote - hito said not utilizing a vote is 10 million percent scummy" and then second "Am I still voting RC? Because if so, I'm content with that vote still."
-----Can you remind us why you are scumreading RedCoyote? What do you think of his posts since your vote?

RedCoyote:
-Votes Invisibility, most likely for the naked vote on Oath.
-Votes Cheesy to make his own wagon "stand out a little less" and because he likes Hito's reasoning.
---I was a little concerned that he didn't really have anything else to say about my slot after the vote or even anything close to scumreading someone else. However, his last post acknowledges this and past experience with RedCoyote tells me he'll probably figure things out soon enough. Hopefully sooner rather than later though with deadline approaching.

I know it's only Page 4, but if I had to make a reads list, town on top, scum on bottom:
Hito
Magna
Komala
RedCoyote
Music Box
Invisibility
nonny
Oath

I also want to point out that my reasons for Invisibility being closer to the scum side of things only apply if Oath is town. So an Oath scum flip would move Invisibility up my list.

[Oath]

I'm VT.

Someone hammer.

[Kmd4390]

Why do you want to be hammered?

[Kmd4390]

Unvote

[Invisibility]

why did that prompt you to unvote?

[Invisibility]

also i'm voting oath because she is the most scumme
i'm going to iso people tomorrow and try to get more reads