Micro 879: The Black Site [game over]

[TDC]

I think it is pretty interesting that A+S are not pushing nsg for Oversoul's read of me anymore. I'm not sure I understand the NK choice if they are scum though.

teacher is throwing up a lot of dust there with the setup speculation. It should be obvious that nsg and I are not masons. Also agree with shell on teacher's Oversoul vote yesterday. Looks really bad now.
VOTE: teacher

Voyc: I only have one game with LUV where he was scum. Would agree he's playing differently here. Maybe more related to geriatric?

Nsg: What's your read on me?

[Voyc]

@A+S, what are your thoughts on LUV, atm?
Still townreading the slot or?

[Auro and Shoshin]

hey all, i'm honestly just here to collect my free victory from shoshin (and auro) carrying.

my heuristic for day 1 scumlynches in micros is that scum is almost never on the wagon or if they are it's the hammer vote. granted, i'm fairly certain that comes mostly from newbies, but i would bet that it holds true regardless. i don't actually have the hard data on this like i would for normal games, but still.

i have read very little but i'm gonna get on that now.

@shoshin

, to someone who is nearly totally ignorant, could you explain why you switched from oversoul to kop, and if you still scumread my slot?

(i'm also interested in why you think your scumgame is bad – from what i've seen it was fairly good, but this is less game related and moreso just for my own interest.)

I hate to disappoint but I'm not sure I'll be carrying anything this game. I haven't read much either, and I'd need to reread things more in-depth to really solve the game, which maybe I'll do at some point. I was hoping you'd carry after replacing in, that would be very nice. I tend to be very lazy sometimes, and especially it seems when I'm in a hydra. I think it's something about the feeling that others will do the work for me so I don't have to.

I never really scumread your slot. The truth is that I secretly scumread Kop the whole time (and especially R&M -- Auro can confirm our discussions about this in discord) and was always planning to switch my vote there at the end.

My main point in voting Oversoul was to get an explanation on town TDC (he left the game before explaining, which is super annoying). I wanted to know if it was role related or behavioral, and if the latter, why. Clearing up reads strong divergences (strongest town to strongest scum) is very important to me. In past games, I've had it turn out that the scumread was in fact scum, but in others it turns out my read was wrong, and the clarification was enough to then completely solve the game with that new insight.

I also thought a sole wagon on Kop would be very boring, and voting Oversoul was an interesting way to test alignments across the board. I preferred Oversoul to TDC because I suspected TDC, and I thought a counter wagon on scum wouldn't be as interesting as a counter wagon on town. And as I said yesterday, I didn't think scum were a viable counter wagon to Kop because scum would simply vote one of the two at that point, defeating the purpose of the test. I think we got some possibly-useful reactions on this front -- notably the fact that LUV didn't jump on the Oversoul wagon when he could have made that lynch much more viable. I'm not sure what it means yet but it's something to think about.

There's another aspect to this as well but I'll keep that part to myself. It's just some underlying stuff about what I was doing in terms of sorting TDC.

I disagree that my scum game is good -- I have a 0% win rate after all -- but if you think it's good, that's nice to know. I also just hate playing scum and never want to do it, and I'd only ever replace into slots that I was very confident are town. I hope you at least believe me on that, even if you think my scum game is good.

-Shoshin

[Auro and Shoshin]

@shos, what’s your history reading saudade? I have a feeling they were in Rick and Mortg, which also made me question 14 from Luv’s slot. Only other note of interest from p1 is TDC and r+M RVS crossvoting.

I get the feeling like there are multiple other private threads going on here. Can anyone share the original game advert? Is it possible there is multiball with 2 2-person teams unaware of the other and only a 5 member town? Like at this point I believe I have seen what would be a mason claim AND another sign of a separate thread. I’m not going to elaborate who or where for now, at least until I have a better feel for the setup.

I have a 100% read accuracy on Saudade so far in maybe three or four games? Not sure why this would be relevant to anything. I never would guess R&M included him.

I have no idea what you're talking about with respect to multiball. This sounds like the type of distraction that scum would come up with to lead mislynches.

@A+S, what are your thoughts on LUV, atm?
Still townreading the slot or?

I think Auro townread the slot. Me personally, I dunno. He wrote a massive wall that I need to read at some point, but it's very overwhelming at the moment. The fact he didn't jump on Oversoul, though. That seems to indicate town?

-Shoshin

[Skygazer]

VC 2.01

Auro and Shoshin (1): shEll
Lil Uzi Vert (1): teacher
teacher (1): TDC

Not voting (4): Lil Uzi Vert, Voyc, northsidegal, Auro and Shoshin

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch. Day 2 ends in (expired on 2019-07-31 16:45:00).

[northsidegal]

I think it is pretty interesting that A+S are not pushing nsg for Oversoul's read of me anymore. I'm not sure I understand the NK choice if they are scum though.

If this is just commenting on a seeming read shift on me from A+S I might understand what you're saying, but otherwise – I'm not Oversoul and thus can't answer any questions as relates to any of my predecessor's thoughts.

As for my read on you: embarrassingly I have still yet to really read much of the game. So I'm going to do that right now so hopefully I can come back and answer that.

I was hoping you'd carry after replacing in, that would be very nice. I tend to be very lazy sometimes, and especially it seems when I'm in a hydra. I think it's something about the feeling that others will do the work for me so I don't have to.

I never really scumread your slot. The truth is that I secretly scumread Kop the whole time (and especially R&M -- Auro can confirm our discussions about this in discord) and was always planning to switch my vote there at the end.

ha. maybe i will carry, although i can't really promise anything (especially as washed up and out of experience as i am).

i would appreciate if auro would clarify / back up the secret scumread on kop and plan to switch there in the end.

My main point in voting Oversoul was to get an explanation on town TDC (he left the game before explaining, which is super annoying). I wanted to know if it was role related or behavioral, and if the latter, why. Clearing up reads strong divergences (strongest town to strongest scum) is very important to me. In past games, I've had it turn out that the scumread was in fact scum, but in others it turns out my read was wrong, and the clarification was enough to then completely solve the game with that new insight.

hm, could you clarify this a bit? i'm not really sure i'm parsing what exactly you mean by "strong divergences", and whose scumread you mean when you say "the scumread was in fact scum". i'm not sure i follow how the last sentence relates to the subject of getting clarification on other people's reads.

[northsidegal]

Oh yeah, I was going to mention this to you Shoshin but forgot to say it: I do actually believe you in the "prefer to replace townslots" thing, that was originally a thing that Mathdino did (and that was the first time i saw the argument) and i believed it with him just like i do with you. obviously i'm not going to let it be my be-all end-all when it comes to reading your slot but i do think that it is a legitimate point in your favor, especially given that you seem to have obviously read the game before replacing in (unlike me).


Okay, on to my game takes. Preliminarily? Really feeling like TDC is the partner here. First and foremost something that jumped out to me was this:

No lolhammering in this game, please.
VOTE: Rick&Morty. Never met someone with more than one head, whom I could trust.

It reads to me as an awkwardly worded, forced reason to vote for someone which I think could easily be interpreted as forced partner RVS distancing. I'm certain someone is rolling their eyes at me for taking this page 1 interaction as a legitimate scumtell or partner interaction, but I don't think it should be discounted (it also is not the sole basis for my thinking, simply the first thing that really jumped out at me). That's another Mathdino thing, actually – he always said that in later days (and especially after scumflips), reading just the first few pages was a stupidly easy way to solve things.


Onto more substantial things: nobody seems to have questioned why lmao was killed, which I think is a cardinal sin. Well, there is this:

scum:
TDC
Kop Rick and Morty (anonymous hydra)

So that certainly doesn't do him any favors.

Finally, we have TDC's vote progression on R&M and Kop. TDC was the first on the R&M wagon at a point when they were at L-1, yes, but that originated from RVS vote, but hopped off very quickly without much reasoning, simply wanting to "move on":

Hmm,
I should probably revisit this with a fresher mind, but for now I'd like to move on.

VOTE: unvote
VOTE: Spam

Finally, I know that scum!TDC goes against my heuristic of D1 scum lynch in a micro not having bussing, but looking at TDC's trajectory

(woo, i get to use trajectory for a real read! look guys, i'm fferryllt!!)

when it comes to Kop, it doesn't really support a vote there, to me. It just sort of comes out of nowhere. We get this in 345 followed by a vote with really nothing to support it:

I could go for Kop or A&S lynches.

Afterwards this is pretty much all there is for justification:

Kop is still R&M, that slot never really computed for me, also too focused on themselves.

[northsidegal]

So, yeah. Full disclosure I have still not done a

full

readthrough of the game, but for now I feel comfortable with this.

VOTE: TDC


gosh i missed playing mafia.

[northsidegal]

haha, wow i should really proofread my posts more, especially in a geriatric game. i like how i said "finally" twice. impressive persuasive writing there, nsg.

anyways, i think i'm gonna summarize my points to do something productive with this post:

Points towards TDC scum:

• Awkward / forced RVS interaction between R&M and TDC
  
• Night one nightkill had TDC as top scumread after R&M
  
• Unvotes R&M at critical moment with no reasoning
  
• Eventually votes Kop with little to no reasoning (attempting to get credit from a seemingly doomed partner?)
  
• Essentially no sensical trajectory when it comes to the R&M / Kop slot

going to save the rest of my posts for if anyone else comes online. excited to talk about this.

[Auro and Shoshin]

Not sure the point of these questions, NSG. But since I'm glad you're here to solve the game, here's some answers:

Spoiler:

When I say "divergence," I just mean a disagreement about alignment. If your strongest townread is my strongest scumread, that's a "strong divergence."

When I say "the scumread was in fact scum," I'm referring to games where I scumread scum who other people listed as a top townread. This happens surprisingly often.

When I say "clarification," I was looking for Oversoul to explain why TDC was town so that I could determine whether my read was wrong. I was mostly trying to figure out whether I was missing something obvious about TDC that made him town. If I learn that one of my reads is wrong, it sometimes leads to a massive recalibration of all my reads, not just the read I was wrong about.

If you're concerned at all that we're scum, I'll also just note that Auro would be leading this slot if it were scum, not me.

I just saw you scumread TDC. I agree with your thoughts. Have you looked at anyone else / do you have any townreads?

[Auro and Shoshin]

I've not been able to invest in this game due to being busy RL.

Shoshin and I both thought TDC had scum equity in the previous day.
The scumflip is consistent with scum!TDC; the NK is also consistent with scum!TDC (as lmao was scumreading him).

NSG is town simply from the fact that she'd NK us if she was the remaining scum.

I'm happy just lynching TDC for now.

-Auro

[Voyc]

I'm on board w this
VOTE: TDC

[Auro and Shoshin]

i would appreciate if auro would clarify / back up the secret scumread on kop and plan to switch there in the end.

I don't think we explicitly discussed a secret scumread and plan to switch there. At one point when Kop had one vote on him, I said this to Shoshin:
"Impression on Kop, who replaced Rick and Morty I think?
Wait, I'll tell mine first
I don't like Kop's posts
Feels like he's forcing content
Kop doesn't even have real reads
Just questions about whether someone's town or scum for something they did"

And Shoshin responded saying "Yeah true, could go for a Kop lynch". This didn't reflect in our posts at the time (I believe Shoshin was posting, not me), so what she said is true in a sense.

-Auro

[Auro and Shoshin]

There was also the earlier discussions where I said R&M/TDC as scum. My main focus was TDC though.

-Shoshin

[TDC]

Nsg: I asked because Oversoul implied hard info on me multiple times. So surprised you don't have anything. That said, I don't see scum Oversoul setting himself up for a power role claim of some sort , lynching his buddy and then replacing out like that.

I can see the NK angle, although I think I would have NKed Oversoul (because IF I was scum his info was obviously wrong, so better bury it before he realizes himself?)

I think my trajectory on R&M is actually pretty straightforward: I was not able to form a read on him in a way that would make him a primary lynch target, but felt bad enough about the slot that I didn't mind that lynch. I would've happily stayed on lmao had there been more support for that.

I already thougt yesterday that my lynch would be high info, maybe less so today, but I guess it's not the worst option either.

You have to be pretty delusional to see my activity on the Kop lynch as more scummy as teacher actively avoiding it, though.

Also, people going on about how they already solved the game yesterday, because they are that good, really drains my motivation to put more effort into this. If you are really such legends I'm sure you are going to find the last scum just fine without me

[Auro and Shoshin]

Also, people going on about how they already solved the game yesterday, because they are that good, really drains my motivation to put more effort into this. If you are really such legends I'm sure you are going to find the last scum just fine without me

Who was doing this? Why assume these people are town?

[TDC]

Both your slot and nsg (+ "u carry the game" "no u" circle jerk going on between you) . Clearly you can't both be scum, so at least one of you must be serious about both yourself and the other slot.

[TDC]

Sorry if the language was too harsh there. People being full of themselves and yet clearly on the wrong path triggers me somehow.

[northsidegal]

i don't think i'm full of myself at all. i'm sorry if i somehow came across that way.

what i said when i replaced in was both a joke about the fact that scum had already been lynched and just my complimenting shoshin because i think she's great. all of it was said completely separately from—and indeed, before i had even thought of—my read on you.

i don't believe i've said anything regarding my own ability outside of "haha maybe i will carry" (a joke, then followed by calling myself washed up and out of experience, both things that i fully believe to be true).


a more in-depth and specifically game related response later, although preliminarily i don't really believe your justification on why you would have killed oversoul – wanting rid of him before he "realizes his info is wrong" doesn't really make sense to me at all. if you were scum who believed that he had some kind of info that he believed indicated you were town, if anything i'd imagine you'd want to keep him around. it's not as if him changing his mind on any information he had could do anything to point

towards

you as scum – rather, it might just cause him to realize his townread was misplaced.

either way, i'm certain at least you can recognize that someone who had you as their next strongest scumread after lynched scum would be more dangerous to you than someone who strongly (and seemingly blindly) townread you? to me, it does you no favors to see you say otherwise. to me, it just defies common sense.

[northsidegal]

You have to be pretty delusional to see my activity on the Kop lynch as more scummy as teacher actively avoiding it, though.

one last thing – i'm saying this without actually having fully looked at teacher's progression, but just from your description i can say that it's a perfectly reasonable argument to say that someone saying very little about a scumbuddy can easily be more scum-indicative than someone hard defending their scumbuddy.

it takes a certain style of scumplay and indeed a certain style of scum player to hard defend scumbuddies like that. now, i'm not familiar enough with teacher's meta to say whether or not he is that kind of person – what i

can

say is that, from my own personal experience, i think that scum saying less about their buddy or taking more ambivalent stances is more common than scum hard defending their buddies.

[northsidegal]

i don't believe that i've solved the game—except for rare circumstances, i pretty much never do. i haven't even

read

the entire game.

i just found something that i thought made sense and warranted sharing.

[TDC]

Teacher didn't defend Kop, he was just fence sitting saying he could hammer, but trying to get the Oversoul wagon across the finish line.

Maybe you should read the game, I agree.

[TDC]

Regarding the NK, again I understand your rationale and it is sound. I am merely offering my speculation on what I would have done in that place.

I find it strange that you don't even try to understand what could have motivated your predecessor.

[Skygazer]

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[Skygazer]

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