Micro 1041: Geriatric F11 [Postgame]

[catboi]

Vote Count 1.04

Dwlee99 (2):

Sleepless Assassin (0), Three (0)

joqiza (2):

Umlaut (1), mc esther (2)

Andante (2):

Roadkill (1), joqiza (9)

mc esther (1):

Dwlee99 (2)

Not Voting (2):

Andante (1), Wh4t (0)

With 9 alive, it's 5 to eliminate.

Numbers next the names of players indicate their post count for this 24 hour cycle.

The post cap will reset in

(expired on 2022-01-20 22:00:00)

Deadline for Day 1 is January 25 at 9:00 PM EST.

Deadline Timer:

(expired on 2022-01-25 22:00:00)


Notes: Wh4t is being replaced.

[joqiza]

Y'all should go back and look at my 9 again, btw. Right now I'm 30 feet up in the air.

[joqiza]

Something caught my eye here. Let me get this straight: you're saying that upon your return to thread, your method of catching up was to ISO slots one by one.

Instead of... just reading the 5 pages of the game?

WTF?

I don't think this is actually that strange (I did pretty much that to form reads on the players in my "that leaves..." category in my earlier post) but even if it were strange, how is it alignment-indicative?

To be clear, I don't find ISOing strange, I just find it strange to return to a game after two days and not choose to at least skim the thread before diving into ISO's and putting out conclusions on slots. I've always used ISO's as tools to better understand a game rather than as the main method of delivery, so that was difficult to swallow.

Also, like, I just had this moment while reading through her posts. She called my question to Esther meaningless, and I thought, "was that question really meaningless? I don't think what Esther said was clear at all. Does it make sense to call this meaningless?" And I got the sense that, andante hadn't even really thought about whether my question made sense in context, she just called it meaningless, just because.

Then I get later in her posts and she says she's ISOing and I realize she's numbering her posts for each slot, and I have this mental facepalm moment, because I realize what's happening. She's going through the ISO's one by one, and like, the post Esther made, and the question I asked her, aren't even connected in her brain, they're like two completely and unrelated spheres. And I just think Oh My God.

Do I think it's a wolf? God I really want it to be a wolf, and I think I have the right to think it's a wolf because wolves have every incentive to do that, just ISO players one by one and take surface level readings of their posts and call them scum. But do I really REALLY think it's a wolf? I don't know, I just think Oh my God. She is deadset on me being scum when I'm ISO 4/10 and she's read less than half the players in the game. Oh My God.

[Sleepless Assassin]

V/LA until Saturday evening

as I start my 40 hour shift with an 8 hour break halfway through. I'll be going right to sleep after which is reflected in the V/LA.

[Roadkill]

i want to have more to say about wh4t but the flippant response at the start of this post short-circuits me into a loop of "rebellious scum? aloof town?" over and over.

Do you think the flippant response + four early unexplained town reads, weighs more toward town or scum? I'm mixed on them; I personally don't see a scum agenda in it, it feels like it's going against the grain a bit since they aren't consensus reads. But the "bad post bad vote" response feels very much like they're trying to get a reaction out of Joqiza. I'm also not sure why they unvoted instead of moving their vote, I'd like an explanation from them about that and their reads.

i think it's a little towny to see someone protest something and, essentially, flip them off. fight-me energy though is one of those tells though that i think that... people playing scum pick up as one of the easy tricks to dole out for early cred; because why does scum get all mean and snippy when they're trying to win friends onto their side? it's a little towny but it sends me into a loop going back and forth.

the reads themselves are pretty whatever without reasoning. like i said at the time, i don't think there's much i can say about the slot that hasn't explained itself.

(the below is a big, big stretch, so i'm hiding it.)

Spoiler:

if nothing else i think that the unvote aligns with someone who does have plans to revisit at another point, to explain, to move somewhere else rather than stay where they were. which is also a little towny. leaving games midway is a bit crass to read into, but it doesn't

feel

like a 'oh no, i can't provide content!' move to me.

[1/10]
(i am being a bit evil and not working despite being clocked in but am still clocked in so... will see how much i catch up.)

[catboi]

Looker replaces Wh4t.

[Umlaut]

UNVOTE: Joqiza

I have a really hard time seeing him as scum despite my reservations about his early posting. I just think posts like 121 and 127 exhibit a transparency and thought process that are difficult for scum to forge. I should probably meta-dive at some point to see what Joq's scum game looks like but pending that I like him for town. (I also have to admit I just like his style, even when I disagree with the point, which may be biasing me a bit but I have to call it how I feel it.)

I need to rethink my reads across the board, but for now let's try this:

VOTE: Three

Something about what Joqiza said about him "seem[ing] to stay out of the conflict" in 124 made me want to revisit his ISO and, well, it's hard to even point out what specifically I dislike about it but I recommend everyone read it themselves and see what they think. Everything there just feels very

safe

to me. I think his best attempt at analysis is 71 and even that is just, like, okay, and doesn't really reach any kind of conclusion or even conclude with a lean one way or the other.

For the record I think Wh4t's one substantive post is a bit on the towny side, for pretty much the reason Roadkill just outlined.

(Pedit: Hi Looker!)

[Roadkill]

I doubt the speed of the wagon indicates anything at all

faster wagons tend to have maf on them (or at least, that's popular knowledge i absorbed at some point), but on reflection im not sure that necessarily holds true in rvs (again, if it even holds true at all). i'll admit, i couldnt actually look at that wagon and pick out a vote that makes me go "this is the suspicious one".

Going against the grain on Dwlee here, I don't think they're hard definite town or anything like that but 38 seems like a difficult post for scum to make since it basically says "as town I'm likely to do [the opposite of what I'm doing here]"

i like this read

i was going to sheep the joqiza vote but actually i dont really agree with any of the points made.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: wh4t

i don't think the speed of the wagon means much (granted, i am on it.) but i disagree with that 'popular knowledge'. from my experiences it's a Thing That Happens depending on the game. have seen town speedwagon scum, scum speedwagon town, etc.

your wh4t vote confuses me a little bit... you do unvote and move to joqiza later, in 84 and explain you liked the reads in 85, but then, what was the motivation to vote wh4t to begin with/what did you see at the time that was scummy? (i ask it this way because in 85, you explain things as towny/things you dislike but understand town may do.)

I am typically still memeing this early idk what games you're looking at

I don't really see any memeing either. : /

Do you have any takes, preferably hot?

Three I'm starting to think you're not thinking when you say things like this

My takes are umlaut town, mc esther scum. I don't have enough experience with her to know if the vote hopping is normal from her but I think it's slightly scum-indicative.

I am thinking, though I don't really have a normal thought process I guess. Could you explain what you believe I said wrong/thoughtlessly here? I don't see it.

I agree with Umlaut town, Esther scum is more of a hot take though. She's null town for me, I just want to see her engage with the game a bit more. Is everyone else null for you?

I feel like it's kind of an unspoken rule when signing up for this game that you won't just meme around / you'll try to be serious about it. That's kinda the point of this rule set.

Andante is sorta townie.

@Roadkill

I'm not going wild because serious + post restriction + page 3. I think that should be pretty obvious. I don't think the content so far is super enlightening on a cursory glance which is pretty much the response you predicted but yea

this is... a pretty disappointing response, even if i expected it.

even the andante read that follows is pretty... ah...

it's a lackluster pushback on someone to say "don't understand your vote there", i guess. condescending without making an effort to bridge the gap?

do you have anything else to give right now? (i'm sorry if this is annoying, like poking a sleeping bear, but... it's still disappointing to me to not

give

more when everyone else is...)

[2/10]

edit: welcome, looker!

[Looker]

O hi, hello. I guess I'm here now lol.

Give me some hours; I'll be back later on.

[Roadkill]

reading through the past page or two with the isoing and back and forthing is a bit much for me right now, would rather do when i am all comfy.

Something caught my eye here. Let me get this straight: you're saying that upon your return to thread, your method of catching up was to ISO slots one by one.

Instead of... just reading the 5 pages of the game?

WTF?

I don't think this is actually that strange (I did pretty much that to form reads on the players in my "that leaves..." category in my earlier post) but even if it were strange, how is it alignment-indicative?

To be clear, I don't find ISOing strange, I just find it strange to return to a game after two days and not choose to at least skim the thread before diving into ISO's and putting out conclusions on slots. I've always used ISO's as tools to better understand a game rather than as the main method of delivery, so that was difficult to swallow.

Also, like, I just had this moment while reading through her posts. She called my question to Esther meaningless, and I thought, "was that question really meaningless? I don't think what Esther said was clear at all. Does it make sense to call this meaningless?" And I got the sense that, andante hadn't even really thought about whether my question made sense in context, she just called it meaningless, just because.

Then I get later in her posts and she says she's ISOing and I realize she's numbering her posts for each slot, and I have this mental facepalm moment, because I realize what's happening. She's going through the ISO's one by one, and like, the post Esther made, and the question I asked her, aren't even connected in her brain, they're like two completely and unrelated spheres. And I just think Oh My God.

Do I think it's a wolf? God I really want it to be a wolf, and I think I have the right to think it's a wolf because wolves have every incentive to do that, just ISO players one by one and take surface level readings of their posts and call them scum. But do I really REALLY think it's a wolf? I don't know, I just think Oh my God. She is deadset on me being scum when I'm ISO 4/10 and she's read less than half the players in the game. Oh My God.

however...

this might seem a little... 'really dude?' but did it take you that long to realize that andante was doing individual isos?

and onto points that probably matter more, what is the incentive for andante to approach the game like that, as either alignment? you've touched a bit on why she does as mafia, but why as town?

(you seem like you enjoy these sort of tangents/thought experiments in game but if it's not something you'd want to use up a post on i understand, but i think that... ah. understanding the motivations a bit or trying to helps sort beyond the 'oh my god' state you're in?) (i have my own interpretations as well that i'll offer if you want but it defeats the point a bit, to go first when i'm asking.)

also, do you consider yourself a dramatic person/have a flair for it?

[3/10] (my spoons are rattling away swiftly, so i'll return later with more comfort/attention.)

[Andante]

VOTE: Looker Looker repped into a scum slot

[Three]

I haven't had much to say because the majority of the conversation has revolved around Andante vs Joqiza, and I just don't have much to say about it. I was watching mainly to look for alignment indicative stuff, but honestly I think it's just devolved into a long-winded slap fight. Just walls upon walls of essays thrown at each other to the point my eyes glaze over trying to read it. I think it would be better for the game state and everyone's WIM if both of them let it go for now and interact with other people more for a bit.

VOTE: Looker Looker repped into a scum slot

I'm almost entirely certain Looker intentionally tries to rep into scum slots, so I'm not against a policy lim here if we near EoD and can't reach a consensus. However I feel confident that I'm currently voting scum and would like to stay on Dwlee.

[Looker]

VOTE: Looker Looker repped into a scum slot

I'm almost entirely certain Looker intentionally tries to rep into scum slots, so I'm not against a policy lim here if we near EoD and can't reach a consensus. However I feel confident that I'm currently voting scum and would like to stay on Dwlee.

Spoiler:

VOTE: Looker Looker repped into a scum slot

OMG why are you the enemy in every game

Sorry, still reading but I couldn't resist

[Umlaut]

I haven't had much to say because the majority of the conversation has revolved around Andante vs Joqiza, and I just don't have much to say about it. I was watching mainly to look for alignment indicative stuff, but honestly I think it's just devolved into a long-winded slap fight. Just walls upon walls of essays thrown at each other to the point my eyes glaze over trying to read it. I think it would be better for the game state and everyone's WIM if both of them let it go for now and interact with other people more for a bit.

So talk about something other than "the majority of the conversation"? If you don't like what people are talking about, talk about something else. This is not a good excuse.

VOTE: Looker Looker repped into a scum slot

I'm almost entirely certain Looker intentionally tries to rep into scum slots, so I'm not against a policy lim here if we near EoD and can't reach a consensus. However I feel confident that I'm currently voting scum and would like to stay on Dwlee.

Assuming this is true, it would mean Looker was able to determine that Wh4t is scum based on their two (2) posts. So unless you think Looker is a god-tier reader who can correctly determine alignment in ways other players cannot hope to fathom, you should be able to point out what is scummy about those posts themselves. Otherwise this basis for a policy lim is complete nonsense.

I'd really like Andante to try and explain for herself what makes her say Looker's slot is scum.

[mc esther]

I'm almost entirely certain Looker intentionally tries to rep into scum slots, so I'm not against a policy lim here if we near EoD and can't reach a consensus.

i dont get the policy elimination angle. assuming he scumread the slot before replacing in: why would we at deadline go "okay better sheep pre-replacement looker's hypothetical scumread" over sheeping any other player's actual stated in-thread read? and if you do believe there's a compelling reason to take his hypothetical pre-replacement read seriously over everyone else, why would you wait until end-of-day to act on that belief?

p-edit: i dont think this is the same question that looker asked, but yeah we're approaching this from a similar angle and i intuitively like that even if i shouldnt.

[Umlaut]

I like it too. Join me on Three?

[mc esther]

imma wait for an answer, because imo he clearly believes the "looker tries to rep into scum slots" part (like, factual-meta statements like that always get questioned, even as maf he probably feels he can back that part up). i can imagine there's a thought process from there, even if it's not one i'd consider cogent; i'd like to see what it is before making a call.

[Andante]

and mc esther is the partner. gg. Looker + mc

From looker, stuff like "Sorry, still reading but I couldn't resist" there's only 100 posts to read. Looker's initial reaction to repping in was "ah crap. scum. ok I'll do something later" like, that's exactly how I interpretted "O hi, hello. I guess I'm here now lol.

Give me some hours; I'll be back later on."

So I'm definitely sold on Looker maf.


mc esther is trying to push this whole "omg my partner is getting pushed for a bad reason" thing. Three doesn't genuinely believe it, it's a joke. and it's not really that big of a thing as you're making it out to me.


mc + Looker team, get 1 today other tomorrow

[Looker]

Might need some confirmation from people that they're still in since the signups took a long time? Wh4t hasn't logged in since December 30.

/in to replace wh4t if necessary

FWIW

Pedit: "Here now" is because I keep replacing in in spurts of temporary boredom

[joqiza]

however...

this might seem a little... 'really dude?' but did it take you that long to realize that andante was doing individual isos?

and onto points that probably matter more, what is the incentive for andante to approach the game like that, as either alignment? you've touched a bit on why she does as mafia, but why as town?

(you seem like you enjoy these sort of tangents/thought experiments in game but if it's not something you'd want to use up a post on i understand, but i think that... ah. understanding the motivations a bit or trying to helps sort beyond the 'oh my god' state you're in?) (i have my own interpretations as well that i'll offer if you want but it defeats the point a bit, to go first when i'm asking.)

also, do you consider yourself a dramatic person/have a flair for it?

[3/10] (my spoons are rattling away swiftly, so i'll return later with more comfort/attention.)

My surprise isn't that her posts were ISO's. It was that she hadn't read the game first, and was saying as much, unabashedly.

I'll do my best to explain this. The initial suspicion I had was that she was a wolf picking things out of my ISO, but even in this universe I had, it would still involve her having read through the game first.

Like in my view the diametric opposition is:
- Town reads the game, might open up an ISO to try to get a better read at a slot, with that game context in their head
- Wolf reads the games, might open up an ISO to try to make a case against someone, selectively ignores context in order to make their push

And at first, like where I was talking about the "my question, mc esther response" thing before, I thought that she was falling into the second category there. My realization upon reading the part of her post where she says...

(ughh my brain doesn't work in ISO mode like this, but it's the easiest way to catch up.. Something there with Sleepless? who knows??)

...is that she is doing neither of those things. I mean she is telling us right there, it's not like she is being deceptive about her reading method.

It seems like, you and Umlaut don't really share my view, that this is a strange way of digesting the game... maybe it's not? It is just really alien to me, and I can't ever imagine being able to... idk, be a person, who could come to a stalwart conclusion on a slot, by just ISOing it without actually reading the thread straight through. I think I had my Oh My God reaction because... well first it was just a sort of, "surely, this has to be a wolf, right?" and then I think, as time has passed it's more like, I have to figure out a way to communicate with this person, who plays the game very differently from me, if they are town.

To answer the dramatic person thing, yeah, probably. I end up spamming a bit more on this site for some reason. You can probably just... look at my games and see for yourself. All my recorded games are either on this site or mafiauniverse (same account name: joqiza). Homesite was EpicMafia but that site went down and my games there are no longer available.

[joqiza]

To respond to 136, I would say, yeah, some of me vs. Andante could be characterized as a slapfight, but not all of it? Andante extended me a bit of an olive branch with 121, and I responded with 124, which is my theorizing on other slots keeping in mind the possibility of a TvT... so to say I need to focus on other slots is sort of... well, it just doesn't seem quite right to me. I'm sorry if you think I'm long-winded but, on the other hand, it's a 6 page game. I really don't think it's that bad... (I've played in a 17,000 post game before, so.)

However I feel confident that I'm currently voting scum and would like to stay on Dwlee.

Are you able to explain what makes you so confident on this? In my view, he's sort of the conundrum of, lowposting wolf vs. LHF bait.

Not sure if the discussion about a Looker policy lim is serious or a joke but would add that I am down for said policy lim for the sole reason that his avatar is HORRIFYING.

[joqiza]

Mixed feelings on 136 as I look at it more because, well. When my eyes are glazing over in games I'm a wolf. As town it's easy for me to hang onto posts because it's an interesting mystery. And it's hard for me to self-eval, but like, I do think I had AI content in that "slapfight."

The Looker thing is like... actually pretty deadpan if it's a joke. I'll wait for follow-up.

I thought 135 might be a reaction test but Andante seems serious in 142. How is she so sold on these reads? The Looker suspicion does segue from her earlier post about Wh3t, but... I feel like I'm trying to collect scraps of posts to build a sense of each slot, and then I look up, and Andante has taken those same scraps and built herself a spaceship to Mars.

[Andante]

Looker and mc are both literally maf.
Joqiza, idk what you're going on about, but I'm not reading any of it. You are just deadset on tunneling me for whatever reason, and it's actually just annoying. You are taking every little thing I say, and making a huge deal of it.
135 was a joke, I tunneled Looker a game they replaced into scum, and tunneled upon the second they replaced in. They were scared of me. thus it was a joke, but Looker is literally maf here. Town looker does stuff. maf looker goes "uhh I'll do stuff later" and freezes when caught. 2nd post was a genuine sr yes

> I feel like I'm trying to collect scraps of posts to build a sense of each slot
you sure that's how you feel? it sure seems like you're just deadset im maf, and refuse to actually look at anyone else. the team is mc and looker, why not go look there?

[joqiza]

Andante you aren't reading my posts... I gave you a whole reads list based on the premise of you being town, I'm in no way deadset on you being mafia.

I will even go ahead and UNVOTE: as Andante feels genuine in her last post.

I want to try to work with you... your Looker read could be tea but we can at least let the guy make an actual post or two first. Don't really vibe with the MC esther, I get that your theory is she's poisoning the well but I think her interpretation of Three's comment was valid. I say that because I got tripped up on the policy lim thing too.

[mc esther]

two other people didnt get the joke ("joke"?); claiming it was so obvious that i could only take it seriously as maf is, no, fuck off lol (and you obviously dont even believe that, given that umlaut asked similar questions over it). i also dont get the "responding to a bad push" thing, when three literally isnt pushing looker, and i explicitly asked why he isn't pushing looker.

the thing that really sucks is, i actually agree with andante on looker's replacement behaviour as maf (another 12 hours with no comment from him, yeah lol, it's not exactly looking better is it?). im really not happy about voting with her but.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: looker

three isnt off the hook though, i want clarification on the joke thing and answers if it wasnt. also looking forward to his next vote.