Micro 650: Mislead 2: A Maze of our Own Devising (Restarted)

[Infinity 324]

I'm loathe to continue quote stripe interactions, but no probably can't give you an example right off the top of my head. There was a mini normal game by empire - Star Wars something, his most recent one, where someone hated my opening. Probably true for most of empire's games actually. I seem to remember getting crap. Other games, eh, I've played well over a hundred games one multiple forums, I'd like to keep most of them in my head but my memory's not that great. General sentiment is there though. Usually there are a bunch of people who've played with me that go, eh that's just Tammy dude.

Ah I think you're reading too much into my interaction with you or at least misreading my motivations, which is normal even people who've played with me forever get it completely wrong why I'm doing what I'm doing. When I say you'll drop the read it isn't me going you're town you'll drop the read, it's more a way for me to interact with you. I don't have a read on anyone yet; I rarely do this early in the game. I do believe if you are town, you'll see I'm town. I believe that of most people. I think the only people who have kept scum reads on me longer than normal have been new people who usually scum read me for weird reasons and random people here and there. AVox, where has he been?, always reads me as scum no matter what if I'm town, and I've had the occasional tunneler. Sometimes scum tunnel on me to do that why would I tunnel on universal town read thing and for other reasons I won't say because I don't want anyone getting any ideas, but those are fewer and far between. I guess I could one day lose my town mojo, but I hope that's not this game it would just be too sad.

Mostly I wanted to see your reaction and if it could give me an early leaning read on you. You thinking I'm scum is the most interesting thing that's happened this game save the setup talk and I, being quite self-absorbed, have a tendency to interact with and try to sort people who are poking at me and scum reading me.

Ok this satisfies me a bit more.

Something townpings me about the fact that you say you were trying to read me but it wasn't obvious (at least to me) in the first place. Something to do with the fact that scum want to make their "scumhunting" transparent.

I'll check the game you mentioned at some point.

I think d1 is the best time to use flees.

This is an Insta-distrust to me.


Why? The following is from the Predict the Flip setup thread, which cfj has stated that this game is mathematically equivalent to in the Micro Queue.

So I run a traditional gaming club at my university, and we just started meeting again for the semester. We play werewolf all the time, and only had 11 people last night which is a bit small, so I thought, hey, why not try out this setup?


We had eight townies and two goons.

The first round, they singled out an obvtown, and everyone predicted her town, nobody jokered.
Then they decided to have two people per round joker or predict something that the majority doesn't predict, in case they're wrong. People just jokered.
Town wasted several jokers, and the group kept picking townies to flip
Then we lost half of the town at once when they predicted a scum flip incorrectly.

We're down to four players, and they have six people left to flip. They pick the scum, one of them guesses correctly (thinking he was wrong, but splitting the numbers just in case), and he was left the only living player.
He had four other players left to flip, and basically needed to guess which one of them was scum. He guessed two town correctly, then guessed town on the remaining scum, and lost.

It was super cool. Players were pretty confused about the whole thing for a while, and since they're mostly familiar with role madness, I got a lot of people asking "So how do we find out who the werewolves are?" So my group probably wasn't going to play it the best, but the scum did a good job.

It's scum that convinced people to waste their jokers early, and intentionally picked off townies early.

Very fun game. Very excited to play it here.

So yeah, Infinity insta-distrust.

I read that thread. I can imagine scenarios where it would benefit scum if a lot of flees were used early, but objectively later on it'll be easier to determine who scum are.

[Infinity 324]

I'm thinking that my plan, with the modification that at most 3 people distrust and 3 people flee, might work.

[callforjudgement]

Vote Count

Infinity 324

(3): Vedith, NJAC, reso

Imperium

(2): Peptobislawl, Infinity 324

Realeo

(1): Not_Mafia

Vedith

(1): Realeo

Other available sections

(0 votes each): Not_Mafia, Peptobislawl, NJAC, reso, Tenshii

Not voting

(2): Imperium, Tenshii

Vote for a section to attempt. With 9 players alive, 5 votes are enough to select a section.

Deadline is Sunday 16 October at 12:15 UTC (

automatic countdown: (expired on 2016-10-16 12:15:00)

)

[Realeo]

So yeah, Infinity insta-distrust.

Learning from The Purge, town can make stupid town spec sometimes =/ In my opinion, infinity has a valid concern, but a stupid solution.

And to be honest, reso, you are cherry-picking. You are not being fair. Infinity's strategy is not an apple to apple comparison to podobog's plan. The podobog's plan is wasting joker. Infinity's plan is just trying to solve polarized read first. Take me for instance. I have 2 scumreads and 1 townread. You maybe want to solve me first when you can easily hedge your bet.

Infinity, is my interpretation is correct? The wording 'wing it d1' makes me confused but this is my best stab???

@reso:

What do you think of Tenshii?

I'm thinking that my plan, with the modification that at most 3 people distrust and 3 people flee, might work.

No. No. No. Don't do that. Can be manipulated. Remember Ircher's plan? If we're going to do your plan, then let they decide. Never dictate a vote.

[Tenshii]

I read that thread. I can imagine scenarios where it would benefit scum if a lot of flees were used early, but objectively later on it'll be easier to determine who scum are.

Why is this the case?

I have some strategy proposals but I want to confirm things with the mod and get Infinity's thoughts on the setup first.

@Mod Are there ever going to be mod-confirmed role reveals? Ex) Upon death, role reveal

Are night choices public? Ex) During the night, Y trusted and Z distrusted. A fleed.

[reso]

And to be honest, reso, you are cherry-picking.

Yes, because within that specific setup thread of 10 posts, and the lack (to my knowledge according to my attempt to search) of other games that have run Predict the Flip as a setup, I have cherry picked. I've even looked at the previous maze game, and it's fundamentally different from this game. I did not cherry pick.

Infinity's strategy is not an apple to apple comparison to podobog's plan.

Hmmmm..... though I didn't say and mean this, I can see how my abrasiveness can make it seem like I meant this. Okay, fair point.

Infinity's plan is just trying to solve polarized read first.

Take me for instance. I have 2 scumreads and 1 townread. You maybe want to solve me first when you can easily hedge your bet.

I don't understand what you mean in the bolded.

As for trying to 'solve' you, I won't. I won't try to solve you as a person, or anyone for that matter. No cold, hard facts are going to come out from us choosing the wrong path because it seems that if the Guardians will end up as stumps, why wouldn't that apply to the Engineers as well? Like I said, to me, this game is about putting my life and my trust into the hands of the person in charge of their segment. I don't like to do reads, but those are all I've got this time. I'm not going to be bothering with meta analysis because I think trying to do it is dumb, especially if the one you are analyzing is aware of their own meta. As for my own meta, I guess you can try asking Vedith and NJAC about it, though I've only played with them only once each.

@reso: What do you think of Tenshii?

Null.

[Infinity 324]

So yeah, Infinity insta-distrust.

Learning from The Purge, town can make stupid town spec sometimes =/ In my opinion, infinity has a valid concern, but a stupid solution.

And to be honest, reso, you are cherry-picking. You are not being fair. Infinity's strategy is not an apple to apple comparison to podobog's plan. The podobog's plan is wasting joker. Infinity's plan is just trying to solve polarized read first. Take me for instance. I have 2 scumreads and 1 townread. You maybe want to solve me first when you can easily hedge your bet.

Infinity, is my interpretation is correct? The wording 'wing it d1' makes me confused but this is my best stab???

@reso:

What do you think of Tenshii?

I'm thinking that my plan, with the modification that at most 3 people distrust and 3 people flee, might work.

No. No. No. Don't do that. Can be manipulated. Remember Ircher's plan? If we're going to do your plan, then let they decide. Never dictate a vote.

At first I though we should let everyone vote how they want d1. This is what I meant by "wing it". But I think we should try to hedge against them being town. This is why some people would joker (but not too many) and not too many people would distrust.

I don't see how this can be manipulated...

[Infinity 324]

I read that thread. I can imagine scenarios where it would benefit scum if a lot of flees were used early, but objectively later on it'll be easier to determine who scum are.

Why is this the case?

Because we have more flips and info in the thread to work off of.

[reso]

Why do you assume that we'll have a lot of info to work with. I'm pretty sure that this was already quoted before:

Additionally, because Maze Guardians necessarily follow themselves into danger, they will necessarily be trapped at the latest when their segment is attempted (they may also choose to trap themselves earlier in order to mislead the town into thinking they are innocent)

If that is possible for the Maze Guardians, trapping themselves earlier to make themselves innocent, what makes you think we'll get any more information from a town being trapped? You act like we will get more information. But to me, it reads to me like you already have more information.

[Realeo]

Like I said, to me, this game is about putting my life and my trust into the hands of the person in charge of their segment.

I concur with that and I myself want to take that approach (hence why I rejected the motion of limited flee and limited distrust.) I agree that this game is an individualistic game. However, eventhough the flip is an individualistic work, the nomination is a team work.

I agree that no one should dictate who I think what will flip, but I think it's a good idea to dictate the vote to a certain target. The motion is to vote the townread first. I don't think anyone should forced me to predict 'TOWN' when I scumread the nomination, however, if the majority townreads him, I see no problem nominating him. They want to trust him, go ahead. I will nominate him so they can follow him. But I will distrust him.

Infinity's plan is just trying to solve polarized read first.

Take me for instance. I have 2 scumreads and 1 townread. You maybe want to solve me first when you can easily hedge your bet.

You concur that nobody should dictate who we trust, right? We can agree on that.

I am polarized because people have two split views. Some views me for scum, some views me as town. Under the concept of peer pressure ("Realeo is town! No idiot, Realeo is scum!") somebody may lose their balls and decided to flee.

If you don't lose your balls, congrats. But others may. If the lose their balls later on, they may don't already have their flee left. As a precuation that you may already don't have your flee facing me later on, why don't face me now? You agree that only himself may dictate who is going to he trust, correct? It's possible that someone decides to flee due to losing confidence due to split view. If that's the case, let give him the chance to flee if he want to. If you don't, don't use it. If you want to, then I maybe the hardest case (judged by the dynamic of the game. That can change, obviously) so maybe the best time to flee is now.

But if you don't think that I will be the hardest case, then don't flee.

I don't think I do a good job explaining, but hope that I send the message.

[Realeo]

Insert clash between reso and infinity

I fail to understand the debate. English please. Both of you.

[Realeo]

At first I though we should let everyone vote how they want d1. This is what I meant by "wing it". But I think we should try to hedge against them being town. This is why some people would joker (but not too many) and not too many people would distrust.

I don't see how this can be manipulated...

Say scum!Reso and scum!Vedith.

If 3 maximum distrust, scum!Reso can took one of the slot. Boom! 2 towns and 1 mafia remaining. Insert scum!Reso manipulating the remaining 2 town. Not only with words, but with voting nomination...He can use his voting power to force a certain nomination, waste their flee for the next 8 mornings.

I have no problem with scum manipulating as tree stump as even though he has persuasion power, he doesn't have political power. A scum with both persuasion and political power? I'm shuddering. That what makes LYLO scary, right?

[Infinity 324]

Why do you assume that we'll have a lot of info to work with. I'm pretty sure that this was already quoted before:

Additionally, because Maze Guardians necessarily follow themselves into danger, they will necessarily be trapped at the latest when their segment is attempted (they may also choose to trap themselves earlier in order to mislead the town into thinking they are innocent)

If that is possible for the Maze Guardians, trapping themselves earlier to make themselves innocent, what makes you think we'll get any more information from a town being trapped? You act like we will get more information. But to me, it reads to me like you already have more information.

Say we attempt player A's section of the maze, and the people who trusted him get trapped while the people who distrusted him are not trapped. It will be obvious he was scum. And vice versa if he's town. That will be information we can use on future days. Plus, more days = more discussion = better reads. I don't see what's so difficult to understand about this.

Your push on me seems like you're trying to find reasons to scumread me as opposed to just calling out things you think are scummy. I mean, seriously. If I was scum, and I had more information, why would that lead me to assume that

town

has more information? Especially since my point is not that we'll have a

lot

of information to work with, it's that we'll have

more

info on future days than we will on d1.

PEdit: What you're saying makes sense, but it doesn't make the game unwinnable for town. 2 different players that each have a guess at the last scum is not terrible odds, especially since the people who distrusted the flipped scum become a lot more suspicious.

What

would

make the game almost unwinnable for town is if 5 townies distrust on d1 and the player flips town. Now 2 townies each have to try to guess the entire scumteam.

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: reso

[Realeo]

What would make the game almost unwinnable for town is if 5 townies distrust on d1 and the player flips town. Now 2 townies each have to try to guess the entire scumteam.

Valid argument, but

Que Sera, Sera

If we town fail, then we fail. Even with an objective read, we can still fail. An objective read + manipulation is even harder.

And about your vote at Reso. I will defend Reso at that case. The rule didn't specify if Mafia is trapped, than later on is attempted. The rule only said that he will die, but nothing about flip. I literally ctrl+f and there is no word of 'flip'.

I mistaken myself with Predict the Flip, because in PtF, it is flipped. It is not specified in this game but I assumed so. Thus, I think we have casual misunderstanding, gentleman.

[Infinity 324]

What would make the game almost unwinnable for town is if 5 townies distrust on d1 and the player flips town. Now 2 townies each have to try to guess the entire scumteam.

Valid argument, but

Que Sera, Sera

If we town fail, then we fail. Even with an objective read, we can still fail. An objective read + manipulation is even harder.

And about your vote at Reso. I will defend Reso at that case. The rule didn't specify if Mafia is trapped, than later on is attempted. The rule only said that he will die, but nothing about flip. I literally ctrl+f and there is no word of 'flip'.

I mistaken myself with Predict the Flip, because in PtF, it is flipped. It is not specified in this game but I assumed so. Thus, I think we have casual misunderstanding, gentleman.

No, the issue is not about misunderstanding. The issue is about reso saying that, since I'm saying that town has more information, I must have more information. It's stretching to find reasons to scumread me. Same thing with the shallow argument about wasting jokers.

[Infinity 324]

Valid argument, but

Que Sera, Sera

If we town fail, then we fail. Even with an objective read, we can still fail. An objective read + manipulation is even harder.

How about this. We make the towniest players decide whether to trust or distrust first, so that scum have less of a chance of influencing townies' decisions. We have an absolute maximum of 4 people fleeing and 4 people distrusting, but each person can decide for themselves based on their read on the creator of the current section and their reads on the people who have already trusted/distrusted/fled.

[Realeo]

No. No. No. You miss the point

Say scum!Vedith traps himself in morning 1. Boom! Then his path got attempted at morning 2. Vedith dies naturally.

You can't tell whether Vedith dies as town or as scum. In Predict the Flip, it's speciffied that the nominee is flipped. It's not in this game, apparently.

How about this.

We make the towniest players decide whether to trust or distrust first

, so that scum have less of a chance of influencing townies' decisions. We have an absolute maximum of 4 people fleeing and 4 people distrusting, but each person can decide for themselves based on their read on the creator of the current section and their reads on the people who have already trusted/distrusted/fled.

The best way to know if someone is the townies is by voting for him at D1 and trust him. He flipped town! Hallejuah! He flipped scum? Well, we're dead anyway when we make the towniest to make our call..

[Infinity 324]

No. No. No. You miss the point

Say scum!Vedith traps himself in morning 1. Boom! Then his path got attempted at morning 2. Vedith dies naturally.

You can't tell whether Vedith dies as town or as scum. In Predict the Flip, it's speciffied that the nominee is flipped. It's not in this game, apparently.

My point is that it doesn't matter whether the mod tells it to us. It's obvious that when the people who trusted vedith die, that vedith is scum.

If this is in reference to my vote on reso, the game mechanics don't really have anything to do with it. Reread 115.

How about this.

We make the towniest players decide whether to trust or distrust first

, so that scum have less of a chance of influencing townies' decisions. We have an absolute maximum of 4 people fleeing and 4 people distrusting, but each person can decide for themselves based on their read on the creator of the current section and their reads on the people who have already trusted/distrusted/fled.

The best way to know if someone is the townies is by voting for him at D1 and trust him. He flipped town! Hallejuah! He flipped scum? Well, we're dead anyway when we make the towniest to make our call..[/quote]

I find it a somewhat common occurrence that a d1 universal town read gets suspected on later days and flips scum.

Do you have any reads on people yet? I'm seeing a lot of setup discussion and not so much scumhunting from you.

[Realeo]

Do you have any reads on people yet? I'm seeing a lot of setup discussion and not so much scumhunting from you.

I have on Vedith. Should be obvious that I'm currently trying to solve you and reso by the exchange between two of us. About others? Activity overview should be the answer.

[Infinity 324]

Ok.

What do you think of my revised plan.

[NJAC]

@Mod: V/LA until monday

[callforjudgement]

@Mod Are there ever going to be mod-confirmed role reveals? Ex) Upon death, role reveal

In nearly every case, the role of the player whose section is selected will become obvious at the end of the section as a result of action resolution. In cases where it doesn't (you nominate a player who's already trapped, and everyone flees), I'll let you know the role of the player whose section is selected anyway. As it's only possible for a player to die once their section has already been selected, this means that dead players will always have publicly known alignment

Are night choices public? Ex) During the night, Y trusted and Z distrusted. A fleed.

The thread will be unlocked during evening, and players post their strategy choices in thread. As a result, the choice will necessarily be public.

[callforjudgement]

Vote Count

Infinity 324

(3): Vedith, NJAC, reso

Imperium

(1): Peptobislawl

Realeo

(1): Not_Mafia

Vedith

(1): Realeo

reso

(1): Infinity 324

Other available sections

(0 votes each): Not_Mafia, Peptobislawl, NJAC, Tenshii

Not voting

(2): Imperium, Tenshii

Vote for a section to attempt. With 9 players alive, 5 votes are enough to select a section.

Deadline is Sunday 16 October at 12:15 UTC (

automatic countdown: (expired on 2016-10-16 12:15:00)

)

[Peptobislawl]

On one hand I can understand using flee when we have the least information, but on the other saving the panic button for endgame would be a huge boon. I wouldn't go as high as 4/9 flees used D1 ever, though.

I still stand by trying to put scum-mazes up as soon as possible, when more people can die without costing the game for town. though to do that, we need activity in this game.