Micro 652 - Double Day Unlimited (Over)

[Flubbernugget]

I'll have to respond to qubixes later because I'm at work

[Thor665]

Here's the entire game;

malpascp (lurker)
Lowell (lurker)
qubixes (Reach out)
Creature (Suspected you)
Aeronaut (Reach out)
Flubbernugget (You)
Not_Mafia (already suspects you)
ecane (lurker)

Who do you think I'm dropping the ball in not reaching out to?
Specifically?
This attack is silly and empty.

I'm not impressed by you dismissing everyone as a lurker and therefore not trying to persuade them the way you would anyone else. Especially since you still did interact with these players with the intent of "sorting" them. If you really want, I can give you the nature of scp's "I'm going to catch up" posting as a reason for exception, but that's still pretty lame

Okay, so your "specific" answer is "the lurkers"

Righr.

I lynched Malp.
Lowell is dead.
And ecane.

And that's it.

So, basically - your complaint is that I haven't reached out to ecane - right?
That's your issue with my "lack" of reaching out, yes?
Because there's no one else but dead peeps and a total lurk sack who is

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p8428912

So...yeah, she and I discussed it.

What's your empty scummy issue with me again?

[Thor665]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p8427890

Ooooh, snap - reached out to Lowell also.

You better get in here and redefine 'reach out'

[Thor665]

You are such lazy scum.

[Thor665]

I'll confirm for you that I never reached out to Malp.

[Aeronaut]

255 was listing the reasons why I think he was scum, not town.

Well, I guess I sort of read that post backwards, whoops. No wonder it made no sense. You are still however throwing shade in this post, yet sort of back tracking and leaving this stance with little to stand on. It's still non-committal.

@Aeronaut:

And yeah I don't like to force my reads to be strong. If I'm unsure of my read I'm going to show I have doubts. Sorry, I guess? If you take my viewpoint for a second during Day 1, can you imagine that I don't know who is scum? Also, I think it's pretty clear I took Thor's side initially in his attack on flubber, and changed my mind at the end of the Day. And it was also pretty clear I took ecane's side in her attack on Lowell? Regardless, what is the point of fence sitting on Thor vs flubber for example if I'm scum? Unless you think it's exactly me and flubber as a team?

The point of fence sitting on Thor v Flubber is that you can fan the flames and sit back and watch while they fight it out, snd you're under the radar looking busy townie.

Well, I feel like you're kind of claiming it was only on flubber. If not, can you tell me why it makes sense that Flubber killed creature because he suspected him, but how that doesn't also apply to you?

It is fine that you feel that way - though my words don't back up your feels, so...
I think there is a potential argument that i killed Creature insomuch as I kill slots I don't think I can lynch.
I think a casual search of my games with Creature will not show much concern about his play skill (other thanconcern of it not working) but feel free to research that yourself.

Eh, you saying "this isn't what I would have done" just invalidates any case that you absolutely wouldn't have done it.

Are you saying it's a valid tell against me?
If not - I don't get the point of this.
If so - you should say so.
In either case - my rebuttal stands as stated.

To be clear, I'm not saying it's a valid tell, just based on the way creature acted during the day, he seemed very town.

What I'm saying,

is that I really don't like that you were trying to push that as an argument on Flubber, when it easily could have have applied to you just as much, if not more. I just don't get how you looked at creature's reads, especially ones where he says that Flubber is town and you are not, and say to yourself "Self, maybe this particular argument on Flubber doesn't quite make sense".

The answer is that Qubixes looks like a better lynch to me than either of you. Why is it that you feel so strongly that he's town?

The extent of your case is that he is kind of fencesitting and drifts onto votes.
I see that as a clear suggestion of newb rather than scum.
I also strongly disagree with you that he has failed to offer up unique thoughts and valid opinions that were not part of the social stream - how many do I need to showcase for you to make you believe he's town? One, two, more than five?
I'd also like to see you outline the suspect votes you think he's made and actually explain the scum motive beyond "he was late on the wagon" as you and I both know scum also often occupy the fronts of wagons, and it's all a matter of playstyle - so what makes *his* playstyle the latecomer scum?

255 - In the span of this post, lists like six reasons flub is scum, then says "aw i'm not sure though" and then votes him. Scum motive lies in not wanting to take responsibility here.
277 - Talks about NM and creature, then votes Lowell, putting him at L-1. If you look at any posts before this, Qu doesn't mention having any sort of scumread or anything on Lowell, just jumps on.
293 - Again, puts someone to L-1, but for no real "i think he's scum" reasons, just simple to summon him to the game.

All of this, in addition to various busy questions and lots of "wow let's get this game moving" that make him look like busy busy good town are what's making me worried here.

Also, y'know, lynching Flubber...you listed a *lot* of flak on him and very little on me, and...

I'd also still like to see you address why you keep bringing up the point about me WKing your slot considering, y'know, you're not my scumbuddy...right?

Well I wouldn't call it WKing, I think it's more that you were pushing someone else for way less of a reason than me. I think you're right though, I'm thinking about it, and I don't know a real scum motivation that's not distancing, and knowing my alignment, that doesn't make any sense.

[Aeronaut]

Deadline: (expired on 2016-11-12 08:58:30)

So we've got four days to make two lynches.

[Aeronaut]

I think the thing that's bothering me about Thor is that I too feel like he's not quite pushing as hard as he usually does as town? Like, him having all this good stuff on flub, but being fine with a "compromise" on NM just seems like he doesn't really care much who it is

[Aeronaut]

On the other hand; that thought is meta-based. I also haven't played with Thor in awhile, and play styles definitely change from game to game. I don't really have much besides that, and I also feel like some of it is just that I always feel paranoid of Thor in games where we're not scum together. At any rate, I don't feel like I want to lynch him right now. I want more information before I go that route.

[Aeronaut]

VOTE: Flubber

People have pointed out that I have more on flubber than Thor or Qui, and looking back, they're pretty correct. I also agree with NM that regardless, this gives us the most information for what we need to do with the second lynch.

[ChaosOmega]

Votecount 2.1.04

Flubbernugget (3) - Thor665, Not_Mafia, Aeronaut
qubixes (2) - ecane, Aeronaut
Thor665 (1) - Flubbernugget
Not_Mafia (1) - Flubbernugget

Not Voting (1) - qubixes

With 6 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Still searching for a replacement for ecane.

Deadline: (expired on 2016-11-12 08:58:30)

[Flubbernugget]

I think the thing that's bothering me about Thor is that I too feel like he's not quite pushing as hard as he usually does as town? Like, him having all this good stuff on flub, but being fine with a "compromise" on NM just seems like he doesn't really care much who it is

He is driving a mislynch and tunneling real hard so there's not a lot of information after it and you're falling for it. This is why he is driving his "empty" buzzword so hard right now, and it's why I'm not ignoring him or backing down..

You were in masquerade right? Remember how he was throwing a fit because town wasn't starting to compromise by the first week of d1? Why isn't that happening here when town is an arguably bigger mess than there, and we have an extra lynch to fit in the day? I understand that meta can be washy with reads, but I've never seen Thor argue back that playing in that way was suboptimal.

[Flubbernugget]

Because it is kind of nonsensical? I voted almost every viable wagon Day 1 (You, N_M, mal, Lowell), how is that trying to stall to vote? Yes, as has been noted by Aero, I wasn't the earliest on the wagons, but that was partly me not realizing we wouldn't get more time after the lynch. And it wasn't like I was the problem that the game was stalling, when about half refuses to give almost any content. And where were you talking about my stalling tactics Day 1 if you thought that way about it? If you thought I was scum, you already had two others thinking the same thing. And please explain to me if you were so worried about the time we had for the second lynch, why give Mal more time?

I dont remember the sequence of your votes, but having 4 viable wagons instead of 1 or 2 makes hammering a more difficult decision which is going to make players more cautious which can stall and stagnate the game. It could have explained the lack of content from players too if it generated enough apathy. I will have to look more closely at your voting history.

I admittedly didn't see anything look like stalling until it was entertained as an idea. Mal cited irl issues to their lurking and I will always respect a claim of that nature.

[Flubbernugget]

And I wasn't "threatening" you. I mean what can I threaten you with? A vote? A good rebuttal/argument on why you're scum? That sounds kind of ridiculous. Especially given that my own position isn't exactly conf town for everyone. But it's good you feel threatened, I guess?? I can understand why you would feel threatened as scum... I was giving you an opportunity to either tell me my interpretation was wrong, explain your argument better, or admit that it sounds pretty silly indeed. And yes, I was mildly entertained by the suggestion..

You're highlighting the reason I called you out because...?

[qubixes]

I thought I should wait for the replacement before putting someone to L-1.

Why? What does that change?

Probably not so much. I was thinking a derphammer being a bad thing. Though now with Aero on board, we might actually make a lynch happen before the replacement comes in.

I don't have particular strong town reads, but as it stands I think you and Aero are the most likely to flip town.

Why an Aero town read?

I don't have much to be honest. I thought nmego was slightly more town, and his attack on me seems to be more of an uninformed towny one than scum. It also does not make too much sense from an opportunistic angle, because I think there were more viable wagons than mine.

N_M wouldn't be so bad, but we learn very little if he flips town.

What do we learn if Flubber flips town?

Ehh... It's bound to contain more information than N_M's lynch, because players have actually voiced an opinion more than "ur useless" on him. Btw, I'm not the person to advocate "lynch for information", far from it. But so far we have been lynching

with

very little information, and I feel if we do that again finding the last scum is going to be

very

hard..

[qubixes]

You're highlighting the reason I called you out because...?

It sounded bad to me?

Anyway, declaring intention to hammer. We have only 4 1/2 days left, which is not so much (also given that the flip might take some extra time as well). I'll hammer tomorrow morning/afternoon if nothing changes.

[Thor665]

Flubber utterly ducked me pointing out how his complaint was empty.
Then complains that I'm hammering on the empty thing in an empty way.
Yeah...

@Flubber - you have a hammer intent, claim time chuckles.

[Aeronaut]

N_M wouldn't be so bad, but we learn very little if he flips town.

What do we learn if Flubber flips town?

Ehh... It's bound to contain more information than N_M's lynch, because players have actually voiced an opinion more than "ur useless" on him. Btw, I'm not the person to advocate "lynch for information", far from it. But so far we have been lynching

with

very little information, and I feel if we do that again finding the last scum is going to be

very

hard..

I do agree with this. Lynching NM doesn't seem at all helpful at this point in the game (another reason I'm confused by Thor's play right now). Maybe if it were D1 and we weren't so close to what I assume will be LYLO if we mess this next lynch up. Besides my initial suspicions, Flub makes sense because he's had extensive interaction with most players in the game. I feel like it will be easy to deduce from there.

[Flubbernugget]

Flubber utterly ducked me pointing out how his complaint was empty.
Then complains that I'm hammering on the empty thing in an empty way.
Yeah...

@Flubber - you have a hammer intent, claim time chuckles.

I pointed out how you are playing less aggressively here than I have seen before. Just because I didn't address you doesn't mean its not there.

[Thor665]

N_M wouldn't be so bad, but we learn very little if he flips town.

What do we learn if Flubber flips town?

Ehh... It's bound to contain more information than N_M's lynch, because players have actually voiced an opinion more than "ur useless" on him. Btw, I'm not the person to advocate "lynch for information", far from it. But so far we have been lynching

with

very little information, and I feel if we do that again finding the last scum is going to be

very

hard..

I do agree with this. Lynching NM doesn't seem at all helpful at this point in the game (another reason I'm confused by Thor's play right now). Maybe if it were D1 and we weren't so close to what I assume will be LYLO if we mess this next lynch up. Besides my initial suspicions, Flub makes sense because he's had extensive interaction with most players in the game. I feel like it will be easy to deduce from there.

I have often and repeatedly said in games that a scum flip gives lots of info, and a town flip gives none.
Now, a scum flip of a non=posting player gives less info than a scum flip of a heavily posting player.
But I have never yet seen someone functionally explain why a given town flip is more/less info than another barring PRs.

I find the whole 'info flip' concept pretty silly at face value, frankly.

I pointed out how you are playing less aggressively here than I have seen before. Just because I didn't address you doesn't mean its not there.

You skipped claiming.

I also see that we've dropped the emptiness of "Thor isn't reaching out to enough people" an attack even *I* vaguely bought until I actually looked over my iso - something you clearly didn't do when making that attack on me.
Yet you're not honest enough to admit it - which, incidentally, is why we're going to flip you if you're town (if you're scum it's because we're brilliant).
You've now moved to a 'Thor isn't as aggressive as other places.

...ooookay.
A couple question on that (to showcase that this is now, yet again, an empty attack).

1. How would you describe my "normal" aggressive play?
2. How am I not doing that here (a game wherein I'm focusing a *lot* of posts on you, posting multiple times basically every day about you, reaching out to basically every player to ask them to lynch you, and repeatedly explaining my reasons for lynching you)?
3. Presuming you have that - do you have any connection or meta at all to suggest I'm less aggressive as scum?
4. Have you checked multiple Thor town games and never found me at this level or lower of aggressiveness? If so, which games? If not, how do you know what is normal for town Thor? Explain it?

Pretty sure this is more emptiness.

You should also, as noted, claim.
Or I'll take it as a scum claim.
Of course I already kind of have, fakeclaiming takes time to do right, but maybe you can convince someone else if you pop it out less slowly?

[Flubbernugget]

I already cited masquerade. You were more aggressive there than you were here. The only time i have seen you tunnel like this as town is when ETL kept saying you were playing poorly in one of my first newbies. She admitted that she knew that she could play to your ego to have town lynch you out of apathy. Nobody is playing to your ego here. I don't think I've played with you as scum, but if I know you're not acting town, there's only one other option. You're welcome to point out meta that says otherwise, but in addition to everything you've pushed at me that came from awkward angles that I refuted, there is plenty reason to see that you're more concerned with making the same noise you're pushing on me as a scum tell.

There is one town role in this game. How does it take time to fake claim as scum when there is only one option? If your accusations of my emptiness have so much weight to them, why do you have to keep making empty noise about me not claiming?

[Thor665]

I already cited masquerade. You were more aggressive there than you were here.

You did say that. How, and does it require you to pretend Pere doesn't exist in that game,y'know, the guy I voted for like 30 real life days straight until I got him lynched?
Y'know, cause Thor when town doesn't tunnel and that game is good evidence of it?
There is also a stretch I was voting you for about three weeks straight by the looks of it.
Yeah, there were a couple of short spurts of voting a day here and a day there on Day 2, but I also assuredly showed that I would happily sit on a vote for about a month on multiple occasions as well. SO I don't get how that shows lack of focusing on a vote, especially with the Pere thing.

You're welcome to point out meta that says otherwise

I offer up Masquerade

but in addition to everything you've pushed at me that came from awkward angles that I refuted, there is plenty reason to see that you're more concerned with making the same noise you're pushing on me as a scum tell.

I don't think you've refruted anything - and I have pointed out multiple conversation threads you've dropped. I guess you dropped them because my rebuttals were so weak you knew I was desperate and flailing and didn't need to mention them again, right?

There is one town role in this game. How does it take time to fake claim as scum when there is only one option? If your accusations of my emptiness have so much weight to them, why do you have to keep making empty noise about me not claiming?

Honestly I forgot - in that case I don't get the point of him waiting to hammer you.

[qubixes]

I wanted to give him a chance to say something useful/game changing as town. Doesn't look like it though.

VOTE: Flubbernugget

[ChaosOmega]

Votecount 2.1.05

Flubbernugget (4) - Thor665, Not_Mafia, Aeronaut, qubixes
qubixes (2) - ecane, Aeronaut
Thor665 (1) - Flubbernugget
Not_Mafia (1) - Flubbernugget

Not Voting (0) -

With 6 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Still searching for a replacement for ecane.

A lynch has been reached!

Flubbernugget,

mafia goon

, was lynched Day 2.

All votes are cleared. It is still Day 2. With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.

Deadline: (expired on 2016-11-12 08:58:30)

[qubixes]

Looks like I really did psych myself out with the "what scum would do". Anyway, I'll cross off Thor and N_M from the list (for now), so that leaves Aero and ecane's slot. I still think it is ecane's slot, but a Aero bus in this situation does make *some* sense. I'll start digging through ecane's ISO probably tomorrow (when I have time), but the funny thing I noticed was actually a reaction to flubber... Hopefully we'll have a replacement by then for ecane.