In post 697, Charloux wrote:Kinda wanted some feedback from RB.
@Culted: 1) Why would scum!Lemons kill him partner for no good reason?
And if you're town it should be clear why Lemon's hammer there was scum-motivated. He didn't think I would change my mind on him and didn't wanna give rb time to explain why he townread me.
Where exactly did lemons 'kill karnos for no good reason?'
Everyone in the game save btd responded well to karnos' claim. Which was a derp on all our parts in hindsight because the half-claim was bad.
I guess the question you need to ask yourself is this: are scum more likely to run-up their scum buddy to a halfclaim and then opaquely change gears onto someone else without giving a thought process as to why? Or thread dodge during the runup and hold the stance of 'wouldn't lynch today' but I wanna lynch this person who 'knows' he's town (think for a minute why that makes no sense, especially for someone who -for whatever reason- had a lock townread on btd)
Which if you knew me at all is strictly a towntell. I change my mind on shit more than anyone I know and as scum I keep my shit straight because:
1) Inconsistency gets you scumread. My scumgame is weak but not to the point where I just haphazardly change gears and leave myself open to questioning- quite teh opposite I overexplain myself for fear
of
being questioned.
2) Once karnos is locked into a claim he's as good as dead anyway and I wouldn't piss away all the towncred I'd have gotten for pushing him in the first place just to treat him as town for -maybe- the rest of that day.
3) You were at L1 when the karnos wagon dissolved- why would I as scum decide to make a push on btd when if lemons is town, the entire wagon on you was town driven and you had already claimed not a PR. Your lynch was the path to letting karnos live another day. Running up Btd (who, in hindsight was the only person who wasn't satiated by karnos' claim) would be dumb because a claim from him makes it far more likely karnos eats rope. Something that I'd obviously be more cognizant of if scum.
What actually happened was that btd looked -a lot- less town than karnos, couple that with them not making a lot of sense as partners and rb being pretty solid on him for town; I changed my mind because I suck and constantly doubt myself.
And I'd argue that I've made more than a few mistakes this game. =p
It's plain to see why karnos wasn't interested in the wagon on you- lemons was already pushing it so he didn't need to involve himself (not to mention rb was pushing you hard enough for 3 people) and took the opportunity to
1- distance a bit from the scumreads on you (points to lemons- who he was already distancing from since early in the game)
2- get towncred off your flip
3- as well as look like he was scum with you in the event your lynch doesn't go through
In post 120, Lemons wrote:I'm willing to admit that my vote on karnos may have been a kneejerk reaction to something due to my limited experience. Now that I have more time/less stress, I'm going to reread the thread later and see if my opinions change at all.
I would like to hear about the read on culted as well. Is it only because he disagreed with you about karnos?
you could always redeem yourself by voting for Guilty Lion.
In post 234, karnos wrote:Someone awhile back asked me who is scum if GL isn't.
Lemons. This thing of latching onto a bad logic push and then questioning it (but keeping his vote up), followed up by lurking and barely contributing... stinks of scum.
I don't believe both scum would push together so blatantly, but if guilty isn't guilty, my money is on lemons.
In post 310, Charloux wrote:We have 28 more hours till the deadline. Who are your other scumreads apart from GL?
Lemons is #2. Don't feel like revealing the other one just yet, because it's not too strong of a read and I feel pretty confident that least one of GL & LEmons is scum.
In post 350, Charloux wrote:When a moment comes where a guy like me has the most common sense, it can only mean that town lost.
What do you think of lemons? Am I reading him wrong?
In post 386, karnos wrote:culted: maybe I was acting like the universe revolves around my reads because nobody else was posting at the time.
I'm sorry if you think I'm scum because of abandoning a push, but that is how the game works. I can't lynch someone by myself. I still think lemons might be scum, but I know that even if I am right about that, there is another scum out there somewhere, so I am not as concerned as you about moving on.
And for the record, it wasn't even OMGUS, I just said that because I wanted to see what you would say.
In post 417, karnos wrote:Shit, I lied. Lemons isn't on my wagon, and he might well quick lynch me if I am correct about him being scum. Please unvote before you allow that to happen, I am a town PR, consider this a soft claim.
In post 425, karnos wrote:Charloux is the least scummy of those 3 IMO. Then again, I've been wrong so far this game.
I'd be happy to go back to lemons if anyone else is willing to push that wagon.
Needless to say, if we have a jk please keep me in mind.
In post 461, karnos wrote:I think BTD is a decent choice of lynch today, he hasn't been acting very towny IMO. Prefer to lynch BTD over Charloux. Lemons is also on my bad list, but I think BTD's recent play has proven even worse. Culted is looking better, especially if BTD flips red.
I hate how BTD suddenly came out from being lurky when he had a little pressure, and then vanished for a time after putting my at L-1 without acknowledging. I admit I have done similar in other games on day 1 RVS type situations, but this late into day 2 and the game demands more careful play.
In post 470, karnos wrote:Can't see lemons & culted being scum together after the last exchange.
Need to re-read a bit and see if BTD & lemons is a viable scum team.
In post 471, karnos wrote:Well that actually took no time at all, both lemons and BTD have been relatively low content posters this game.
Lemons pushes to lynch arcangel over BTD when both are being called out for being lurky. Lemons repeatedly mentions BTD's lack of posting but never places a vote or seriously pushes, he always seems to be willing to give BTD more time. Most recently, with a BTD wagon gaining some traction, lemons tries to redirect again to culted.
BTD posts very little during day 1, just an RVS vote and...
In post 142, BTD6_maker wrote:We're still at some phase in the game that is at least very similar to RVS, or the next step after it
Followed by chiming in on the GL vs karnos arguments, saying he thinks I am more likely town (but reverses that read after Lion flips green day 2). He also seems willing to lynch Charloux, but then he goes on V/LA before ever moving his vote- seems BTD was content to let the day end in a no lynch if I didn't hammer.
Day 2 he has voted me and now moved to culted. With very little original content. One thing that pinged me is he posted less than an hour after I voted him, but overall seems to be very low activity. To me that indicates he is reading and watching the thread, he just isn't posting unless he feels it absolutely necessary. Or possibly he just got phenomenally lucky and happened to have time to post right after I put some pressure on him.
Of note: absolutely zero mention of lemons in his entire iso. I hate digging through other games but if someone else wants to do the work I'm curious if BTD's scum meta usually ignores his partners like that.
In post 543, culted wrote:Funny thing is I still kidna think the other scum is lemons.
Would you go for a lemons lynch today?
Cop claims can be 100% verified by leaving the cops alive for a night and checking results tomorrow.
Notice how the only
talking to
lemons that's done in all these quotes is the very first quote.
And it isn't even trying to engage in a dialogue at all.
It's trying to give lemons another option to push besides himself.
Second quote scumreads Lemons for lurking. Which is odd considering Arcangel and BTD were in the game at that point.
#311 is Charloux not being aware of what karnos' reads are (if I needed another reason to think Charloux was town over lemons at this point).
#330 doesn't make any sense; why does lemons have more reason to frame him than anyone else at that point.
#355 Looks good for charloux once again. Trying to make him look bad depending on the answer, distance from lemons a bit, and also enter into a conversation that may end up giving him a reason to turn around his read. Considering just about nobody was interested in lynching lemons at that point that seems like what he was most likely going for there.
#386 Is more of an -actual- interaction with me. But I included this one just for how awkwardly he held onto his lemons read and decided to reiterate it whenever he could unprompted.
#417 Continues the same trend of scumreading lemons for things that don't even make sense; lemons hammering him at that point would have been a scumclaim.
#425 Trying to look like he's buddies/buddy up with charloux here.
Only wants to wagon lemons if others are interested
#461- He flips his read around on me after he realizes I'm terrible but notice how he addendums it with "if btd flips scum". My only value to him at that point was lynching btd. If this were scum turning around on a scumbuddy it's more likely that he'd leave the end part off.
#470 Can't see lemons and I being scum together based on our exchange. Doesn't really make sense because our interaction hadn't even come to fruition. This line was down specifically for wifom.
Takes the opportunity to feed into my confirmation bias on btd and paint lemons and btd as scum together based on btd not interacting much with lemons. Strange considering that btd didn't interact with a lot of people.
#544 Is the cherry on top. Just trying to squeeze as much as he can out of all the bad distancing he did. Karnos was basically out'd scum at this point if you don't recall so if lemons were town there's not really any motivation to remind us all that he had such an awkwardly flat and un-moving read on him the entire game.
In post 343, culted wrote:tl;dr he isn't approaching reads from a mindset of sorting a two mafia game if that makes sense.
Take a look yourself and see if you see what I mean.
Are you saying that you approach the game differently if there are 2 scum, vs a game with 3 scum or 4 scum? I'm not sure I see the point in that. I look for scummy behavior and try to get it lynched. Sometimes you have 4 scummy players in a game with 3 scum, but if you lynch all 4 of them you will probably get the scum so it doesn't matter if the numbers don't line up perfectly.
In post 373, karnos wrote:My feeling is that when the game gets like this, it's because scum is perfectly happy with the way the votes are going and they don't feel any need to play actively and try to steer wagons.
In other words: Charloux is probably town. OTOH, we do have over a week until deadline, so scum could just be slow-playing as well, and the holiday is probably a legitimate reason for many players to be absent.
I wanted to see lemons flip because I'm pretty confident the early wagon on me was scum pushed. Since scum were kind enough to flip GL for me that leaves lemons as the next obvious possibility. Then again, I could see scum strategically killing GL, thinking I would push lemons next- which would make lemons town. Maybe I just had a bunch of bad reads on day 1. But... I would expect at least one scum would be willing to push lemons along with me if that thinking is right, maybe the lack of willingness to jump on his wagon is because he *is* scum. Too much WIFOM.
Anyway, gotta get the game moving.
Blatant OMGUS- VOTE: culted Explain your push on me.
In post 386, karnos wrote:culted: maybe I was acting like the universe revolves around my reads because nobody else was posting at the time.
I'm sorry if you think I'm scum because of abandoning a push, but that is how the game works. I can't lynch someone by myself. I still think lemons might be scum, but I know that even if I am right about that, there is another scum out there somewhere, so I am not as concerned as you about moving on.
And for the record, it wasn't even OMGUS, I just said that because I wanted to see what you would say.
In post 310, Charloux wrote:We have 28 more hours till the deadline. Who are your other scumreads apart from GL?
Lemons is #2. Don't feel like revealing the other one just yet, because it's not too strong of a read and I feel pretty confident that least one of GL & LEmons is scum.
My other scum read at this point was culted.
RVS vote on RK, followed by a strong push on RK. I see this from scum a lot, since they aren't actually scum hunting they just pick someone to try to lynch, and more often than not it's just whoever they RVSed.
Later, culted switches to Charloux with very little reasoning in 158 - apparently the reason for voting is that Charloux hasn't placed a vote on his scum read.
160 feels like scum adding some plausible deniability in case the wagon does hit a lynch "Tempted to unvote because it feels like genuine frustration but at the same time I don't ever want that in lylo." In other words, culted thinks charloux is town but wants to lynch him anyway.
Yet he doesn't unvote, and then goes VL/A for the rest of the game day. Classic scum strategy- start up a wagon/push, then go afk and when the flip comes up green you blame the player who hammered.
Culted came back to naked vote me in 332, but that was after I was already reading him as scum.
In post 389, Darkshadow64540 wrote:BTD6_maker - v/la makes it a pain to read, I hope like hell you get active real fast because this game is just painful
Lemons - currently town but you really need to get involved more
Charloux - that last post, I want to lynch you just for that... that said you are likely scum
culted - I'm liking you a bit more, you are now an even neutral, please keep it up
karnos - SCUM, and nothing you have said has changed that.
rb - Oh wow, please for the love of god drop the awful attempts at humor, you went from a town read to a mild scum read
I admit I haven't been very active myself, this is only my 2nd game and I'm not really sure how to lead a town with no active players...
I also reiterate my intent to vote Charloux but am only holding back to avoid a quick lynch as my vote puts them at L-1
I find it interesting that culted was scum reading your slot all day day 1, and has seemingly turned around completely given your replace. I also find it interesting that you were afraid to put your scum read at L-1. I can sometimes accept that sort of behavior early day 1, when people are recklessly voting in RVS, but the game is freaking stagnant now and there is no reason to hold back voting.
Hell, if you think I am scum and you are afraid to put Charloux at L-1, why didn't you vote me? Again I am reminded of culted, in day 1 he was voting charloux due to throwing shade but not voting... yet that is exactly what you are doing now and he has seemingly completely reversed on his read of your slot. Culted honestly isn't discussing his reads at all, which is another issue, but I am taking his lack of discussion to mean he thinks you are town.
With rb's vote Charloux is now L-1, so you can be off the hook for that now, but I still question why you were so shy to vote someone earlier.
Decided to trim the overlap (where he mentions both of us) the best that I could.
Notice how he actually attempts to interact with me, though? I mean the first quote where I called him out for not sorting the game from a town-mindset doesn't really open the door for much of a conversation but it's at least attempting to get me to rethink (explaining that he allegedly just looks for scummy behavior and doesn't weight the amount of scum or interactions or anything like that--which is bullshit but the points still there).
Second quote is clearly him looking for an excuse to to stop bussing--what better way to do that than to omgus culted who's making a push on him that he doesn't understand.
He asks me to explain the push more eloquently. Again this opens up the door for a dialogue to occur.
What's more, and as I've touched on previously when it happened, the move away is contrived because nobody sheeping you isn't a sign of anything but your push lacking steam.
Which points to a buss. He never tried to sell his case on lemons to anyone and just moved on without even trying to.
#386 Basically appeasing me here. And the follow-up on the push in #387 is SO much more justified than his read on lemons ever was.
He was actually down to lynch me. Wasn't ever really down to lynch lemons.
And that point is brought further to light by #397 where he sees dark coming around to a townread on me and explicitly tries to sell dark on me being scum.
Charloux, scum has enough material at this point to spin things in just about any way they please. If I hadn't voted for him, I'm sure Culted would have had a perfectly convincing argument on why you were scum as well.
I suggest you go back and read through the thread yourself, and see which of us has actually been helping town.
I'm confident you'll come to the right conclusion.
I didn't think town was going to manage this one, have to say. Day two, knowing neither of the PR's had actually managed to get an action in despite the prods, and then you almost letting Karnos off the hook with a softclaim of all things, I saw this going off track so readily. Too likely to have a PR get lynched, or too easy for Karnos to be off the hook for way too long. Had to push him to a real claim, this was making it way too easy for scum. But you avoided looking at a claim without result as being obvscum, so the cc somehow worked out. All that meant that scum did manage to get into lylo without having to deal with a clear, which didn't matter after some nice decisiveness from Charloux/culted. Well played, guys!
Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.
Lemons very good effort man. Your scumgame is solid like there were moments I was taken aback at just how bad you made look at that never happens when I'm town.
In post 692, Charloux wrote:
VOTE: Dark About time we end this charade and lynch this scum as far as i'm concerned.
Please explain why you posted this if you really wanted rb's input?
1)I thought it was gg and that you were scum.
2)I expected some final thoughts before the hammer, and did NOT think anybody would just nonchalantly come and hammer without saying anything; Especially after the comments you got about the hammer.
Town winning this is nothing less than a miracle. We made tons of ridiculous mistakes and not to mention my reads... The only one i got right could be confirmed because he was a PR.
hey, great job town! culted/Charloux good job making the right call in LYLO - I'm also gonna take credit for this win for defending Charloux and keeping him alive on D1
this was an enjoyable game, thanks for modding myko! And thanks to everyone for being fun to play with
"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"
We were never losing with me saying culted was definitely town. If I lived, I was voting Lemons, if I died, culted was voting Lemons and everyone was always going to follow either myself or culted.
It seemed sloppy based on the start but it turned out almost impossible to lose for town unless for no reason at all Charloux distrusted me/culted.
Also I checked Lemons last night so if I lived it was GoOdGAme too.
I was hoping to catch more of a break from the death miller. That is, if he/she was lynched first there would be a lot of doubt thrown into the game, but getting lynched after a scum lynch is a give away. Kinda surprised rb didn't turn on me much earlier if he was the gunsmith, I thought I was crumbing it pretty hard.
I should have just lynched charloux when I had the chance instead of going for the long con.
Could just just lynch charloux here. Would have been a pretty big scum tell for me, but in retrospect knowing i was getting lynched that day otherwise it was an error to not hammer.
Charloux, scum has enough material at this point to spin things in just about any way they please. If I hadn't voted for him, I'm sure Culted would have had a perfectly convincing argument on why you were scum as well.
