Micro 737: Chosen Mafia (Day 4)

[Umlaut]

Mulch died during the night!

Spoiler: What was he!?

Chosen Townie

Day 3 has dawned.

Official Vote Count 3.00

Not Voting

(5): tman2nd, Gorny, Keychain, Dunnstral, Bulbazoor

With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.

Deadline:

(expired on 2017-09-16 05:18:00)

[Gorny]

Whelp that went well.

VOTE: Dunnstral

[tman2nd]

VOTE: Keychain

Keychain was pushing for the lynch of BTD both days. On day 1 this was also to protect PM. She specifically wanted BTD over LUV over here:

Why LUV instead of BTD6, though? Their actions have been scummier in general - before they went on V/LA, all they contributed was theory spec. Then they left an RVS vote in place when they left.

The more I think about it, the more I get suspicious, ugh. Too much like someone just watching a town pull itself apart.
VOTE: BTD6_maker

She even tried to push on Mulch the other chosen townie, even when he had been very town with his vote on day 1.

I think she's had some good town reads of people, but that's because she knows everyone else is town. I still think she made good points on Dunnstral being town. It's just her reason for that argument was to get us to lynch a chosen townie over a normal one. I've had some paranoia over her town read of me, and now I think that's justified.

[tman2nd]

Plus, I think everyone else is town.

[Gorny]

Hmmm.

That does make sense.

I'm going to reread over lunch, also going to look over Mulch's interactions with other people. At work now though, might not post again for another 10 hours or so.

UNVOTE: Dunnstral

[Keychain]

Umlaut, the way you manage to start each day on a new page will never fail to impress me!

VOTE: Keychain

Keychain was pushing for the lynch of BTD both days. On day 1 this was also to protect PM. She specifically wanted BTD over LUV over here:

Why LUV instead of BTD6, though? Their actions have been scummier in general - before they went on V/LA, all they contributed was theory spec. Then they left an RVS vote in place when they left.

The more I think about it, the more I get suspicious, ugh. Too much like someone just watching a town pull itself apart.
VOTE: BTD6_maker

She even tried to push on Mulch the other chosen townie, even when he had been very town with his vote on day 1.

I think she's had some good town reads of people, but that's because she knows everyone else is town. I still think she made good points on Dunnstral being town. It's just her reason for that argument was to get us to lynch a chosen townie over a normal one. I've had some paranoia over her town read of me, and now I think that's justified.

So tell me:
Why do you say you think I had good town reads when you were also paranoid of my town read on you?
Same question I asked Mulch - scum only need one Chosen townie lynched, so why would I have been pushing both? How does that make me more likely to be scum?

VOTE: BTD6_maker

Ok. You've convinced me. Dunnstral does seem town.

This is now L-1 on BTD.

I still think Dunn is scummy, but You've convinced me to look elsewhere. I'm willing to switch my vote to BTD but I'm not going to hammer without at least saying something about it.

I'm suspicious of both of the above last minute jumps on the BTD6 wagon with no reasons given. I've made it pretty clear I thought Dunn was town, so yes I'm going to go out of my way to avoid him getting lynched for stupid reasons and try and get my scumread lynched instead.

However I

don't

think I defended him to the point that two people would suddenly jump off of his wagon - I find it very likely that one of you was taking the opportunity to get the BTD6 lynch through with minimum responsibility. I make some bad pushes as town, but the bright side is that scum are easily caught jumping aboard.

Given the way Gorny opened with

Whelp that went well.

VOTE: Dunnstral

a vote on Dunnstral after hammering BTD6 because I "convinced him to look elsewhere", I think it may be him.

VOTE: Gorny

Hmmm.

That does make sense.

I'm going to reread over lunch, also going to look over Mulch's interactions with other people. At work now though, might not post again for another 10 hours or so.

UNVOTE: Dunnstral

Being convinced of anything and everything is not a town trait. If Gorny is scum, we are making his job very easy - all he has to do is weakly push Dunn and jump on whatever wagons town present to him.

[tman2nd]

VOTE: Keychain

Keychain was pushing for the lynch of BTD both days. On day 1 this was also to protect PM. She specifically wanted BTD over LUV over here:

Why LUV instead of BTD6, though? Their actions have been scummier in general - before they went on V/LA, all they contributed was theory spec. Then they left an RVS vote in place when they left.

The more I think about it, the more I get suspicious, ugh. Too much like someone just watching a town pull itself apart.
VOTE: BTD6_maker

She even tried to push on Mulch the other chosen townie, even when he had been very town with his vote on day 1.

I think she's had some good town reads of people, but that's because she knows everyone else is town. I still think she made good points on Dunnstral being town. It's just her reason for that argument was to get us to lynch a chosen townie over a normal one. I've had some paranoia over her town read of me, and now I think that's justified.

So tell me:
Why do you say you think I had good town reads when you were also paranoid of my town read on you?

Why is this a contradiction?

Same question I asked Mulch - scum only need one Chosen townie lynched, so why would I have been pushing both? How does that make me more likely to be scum?

On day 2, you initially pushed Mulch, but then there was an opportunity to switch to BTD when Mulch voted there.

[Dunnstral]

Official Vote Count 1.08 (Final)

PMysterious

(3): BTD6_maker, Lil Uzi Vert, Mulch

BTD6_maker

(3): Keychain, Dunnstral, tman2nd

Bulbazoor

(1): PMysterious

Dunnstral

(1): Gorny

Not Voting

(1): Bulbazoor

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Notes

• BTD6_maker is V/LA through 8/25.

[tman2nd]

Hmm?

[Keychain]

Oh god almighty you're back to it.
What are you saying about that VC, Dunnstral?
PEdit: beat me to it!

So tell me:
Why do you say you think I had good town reads when you were also paranoid of my town read on you?

Why is this a contradiction?

Same question I asked Mulch - scum only need one Chosen townie lynched, so why would I have been pushing both? How does that make me more likely to be scum?

On day 2, you initially pushed Mulch, but then there was an opportunity to switch to BTD when Mulch voted there.

It's not a contradiction. Maybe I should have asked it the other way around. Why were you paranoid of my townread on you when you think my townreads were good? I'm worried that you're just chucking that out now because paranoia is generally a town trait. Can you give me any evidence of that paranoia before this post?

And I have a tendency to tunnel. If Mulch was scum, and I was suspicious he was, I needed to push in that direction and test out different options before I locked onto BTD6. He completely overreacted to my vote which made me more sure about my suspicion. But since nobody else wanted to lynch him, I went back to BTD6.

If I was waiting for an opportunity to vote a Chosen townie, why didn't I wait for an opportunity to vote for Mulch? If you're trying to paint a picture of me being nervous scum unwilling to make the push on a Chosen townie on my own, there seems to be quite a lot to contradict that.

Plus, I think everyone else is town.

Why?

[Keychain]

Eh, maybe "nervous" isn't the right word there, but I think you get what I mean.

[tman2nd]

It's not a contradiction. Maybe I should have asked it the other way around. Why were you paranoid of my townread on you when you think my townreads were good? I'm worried that you're just chucking that out now because paranoia is generally a town trait. Can you give me any evidence of that paranoia before this post?

It's why I questioned it in VOTE: 268. Other than that I didn't really voice anything in that way.

If I was waiting for an opportunity to vote a Chosen townie, why didn't I wait for an opportunity to vote for Mulch? If you're trying to paint a picture of me being nervous scum unwilling to make the push on a Chosen townie on my own, there seems to be quite a lot to contradict that.

That's not the picture I'm trying to paint. You weren't waiting for an opportunity. But, regardless of whether you are town or scum, you did take an opportunity when it appeared to vote BTD. As town, you're taking the opportunity to vote someone you suspect. As mafia, you're taking the opportunity to vote for a Chosen Townie. In any case, you taking or waiting for opportunities is not the point of my argument. It was more about how you were pushing for the lynches of Chosen Townies whether you started the wagon or not.

Plus, I think everyone else is town.

Why?

Gorny: 210
Dunnstral: You yourself gave good reasons in 318. The main one for me is how he didn't stop posting pictures when he was being pushed on it.
Bulbazoor: His interactions with PM don't seem to be between scum buddies.

[Keychain]

It's why I questioned it in 268. Other than that I didn't really voice anything in that way.

(post tags corrected)

True, you did. Thanks for that. Your line of questioning on Gorny, which I think I was specifically referring to,

was

great and it's one of the reasons I still think Gorny is scum over you. I'll go back and read your relationship with the BTD6 wagon later though.

If I was waiting for an opportunity to vote a Chosen townie, why didn't I wait for an opportunity to vote for Mulch? If you're trying to paint a picture of me being nervous scum unwilling to make the push on a Chosen townie on my own, there seems to be quite a lot to contradict that.

That's not the picture I'm trying to paint. You weren't waiting for an opportunity. But, regardless of whether you are town or scum, you did take an opportunity when it appeared to vote BTD. As town, you're taking the opportunity to vote someone you suspect. As mafia, you're taking the opportunity to vote for a Chosen Townie. In any case, you taking or waiting for opportunities is not the point of my argument. It was more about how you were pushing for the lynches of Chosen Townies whether you started the wagon or not.

I think I misunderstood you then. But my vote on BTD6 was in response to their 284, not Mulch's vote. I thought I explained that clearly enough in 294.

I think you're looking in the wrong place - the fact that Chosen townies flip Chosen means that scum are going to be pretty leery about blatantly going after them, especially with only one scum left. That's why I'm looking at you two who jumped on at the end, tipping the lynch from Dunnstral to BTD6.


I'll look at 210 shortly.

[Keychain]

Dunnstral: You yourself gave good reasons in 318. The main one for me is how he didn't stop posting pictures when he was being pushed on it.

This isn't quite true though. Pretty sure he stopped when BTD6 pushed him? My point was that it looks like he stopped when it seemed like he was going to get lynched for it, instead of after PM got lynched.

Dunnstral... feel free to chip in any time. I'm hypothesising here.

[Keychain]

I've come around on Gorny. I think he's town. A couple reasons. He moved away from the Bulbazoor wagon onto Dunnstral which could doesn't mean too much because PM wasn't in much danger at the time, but he decided to stick on that vote which wasn't gaining any traction even after PM was in danger. Then today, he seemed a bit mixed up on the fact that LUV was killed last night. It could be an act, but It doesn't seem like it to me.

Okay. So. I disagree with your reasons to townread Gorny.

PM didn't save himself by moving his own vote. Gorny may have been expecting him to, and didn't want to add the layer of suspicion from putting himself on the Chosen lynch when PM could have done it with the excuse of self-preservation.

Secondly, he didn't seem confused about the NK, and I'm not sure why you think he was. He said in 205 he was aware that Mulch replaced Jin, but still listed them both in his analysis of who was likely to be PM's partner in 201, as well as LUV. He was including every player who had ever been in the game.

[Bulbazoor]

VOTE: gorny

[Gorny]

VOTE: Keychain

Keychain was pushing for the lynch of BTD both days. On day 1 this was also to protect PM. She specifically wanted BTD over LUV over here:

Why LUV instead of BTD6, though? Their actions have been scummier in general - before they went on V/LA, all they contributed was theory spec. Then they left an RVS vote in place when they left.

The more I think about it, the more I get suspicious, ugh. Too much like someone just watching a town pull itself apart.
VOTE: BTD6_maker

She even tried to push on Mulch the other chosen townie, even when he had been very town with his vote on day 1.

I think she's had some good town reads of people, but that's because she knows everyone else is town. I still think she made good points on Dunnstral being town. It's just her reason for that argument was to get us to lynch a chosen townie over a normal one. I've had some paranoia over her town read of me, and now I think that's justified.

Plus, I think everyone else is town.

Hmmm.

That does make sense.

I'm going to reread over lunch, also going to look over Mulch's interactions with other people. At work now though, might not post again for another 10 hours or so.

UNVOTE: Dunnstral

Going through the game looking at Keychain and Mulch like I said I would do.

@Tman, if Keychain is scum like you say then the following points make sense from her being scum/would be more or less coming from scum!keychain, or seem so make more sense of she's scum:

Spoiler: stuff

I suppose mafia could think it's a good idea to trade a mafia for a chosen townie (I wouldn't), but this would always be a possibility when someone is at L-1. I'm not opposed to people being at L-1, my concern was with people being at unanounced L-1.

I don't think I quite explained what I meant. Logically, mafia will only quickhammer when it's

in their best interests

(or they at least think it is). So it would probably leave us in a worse position if they did it, not better like you suggested in 28.

However - my vote is on you more for meekly following popular opinion on two page 1 wagons than for a theory disagreement.

VOTE: PMysterious

Hey Bulba, did you realise Dunn unvoted and so it was L-2 or was this almost a quickhammer?

Bolded and underlined: Placing a vote on someone for following an opinion makes sense if she's scum, then that way when that someone flips town, she can say she voted because the other player was following an opinion of someone else and not voting based off something they themselves found scum worthy.

^That was a weird post, Gorny. It seemed like it was trying to say something useful but didn't say a lot of anything - just agreed with someone, hypothesised about an extremely unlikely game mechanic, and promised not to quickhammer when I don't think you even can after Dunn's unvote.
Do you think Dunn's posting is suspicious? You called it a potential "ploy", after all.


@Bulbazoor:
I actually would like to hear a response to this.

VOTE: PMysterious

Hey Bulba, did you realise Dunn unvoted and so it was L-2 or was this almost a quickhammer?

@Mod: Request for Dunn to communicate using words.

No no, I want to see how long he can keep it up for!

Also in the above post, and the comment about me not wanting to quickhammer when she did not think I could after Dun's unvote, She makes it seem like my intention was not to quickhammer there and then, with no comment or thought that I might have meant I wouldn't quickhammer at all.

- Skipping over most of the back and forth about when I wasn't believing in Dunn's posting method as it's beating a dead horse.

169 Mulch says PM is Gut scummy before PM's lynch and PM flipped scum.

Wondering if Mulches death at night was in retaliation? Just a random thought.

180 Glad we agree? Or glad that scum!keychain has town players agreeing with her to vote other town players? More to the point glad that the agreement to lynch was on a chosen townie? Hmm...

192 She did not like the PM lynch (makes sense if PM was her scum partner), and is pushing BTD who flipped Chosen

Also noting my 201 Where I pointed out keychain for possibly being PM's scum partner and the fact that she never voted PM, and the rest of the commentary in that post.

I've come around on Gorny. I think he's town. A couple reasons. He moved away from the Bulbazoor wagon onto Dunnstral which could doesn't mean too much because PM wasn't in much danger at the time, but he decided to stick on that vote which wasn't gaining any traction even after PM was in danger. Then today, he seemed a bit mixed up on the fact that LUV was killed last night. It could be an act, but It doesn't seem like it to me.

At this point, I'm thinking PM's partner was on the BTD wagon. I know it's not me, so I'm thinking one of Dunnstral or Keychain. Haven't quite decided who I think is more likely.

@Gorny: Why?

This concerns me. Specifically the part where Tman says he knows PM's partner wasn't him. Normally I would be cautious and it would come down to who I believe more: Tman saying he's not PM's partner or Keychain. (we all know in mafia a lie can be anywhere and nothing is as it seems most of the time, however the vote count tallies help me make up my mind here. TM never voted PM, same for Keychain. I could go with the line of thinking that tman is/could be scum for that

BUT

even though both Tman and Keychain had no votes on PM...keychain for sure voted Tman early on. Add that in with the push on BTD, and Keychain looks much more scummy than Tman.

I don't think Tman is scum based on the above.

Oh god Dunnstral is still only posting in pictures. I'm laughing but I'm also crying.

There's no one correct way to play Mafia Keychain

Very true. If there was, it would be a terribly boring game! That said, I don't really know why you chose to respond this way to my post and why you thought it was relevant at daystart.

I think I'm a chosen townie

1) I have good tonwncred position

2) I wasn't nightkilled

3) Agent Jin was very likely one of the people NOT chosen to be not chosen.

VOTE: Mulch
There is only one member of the scum team left. They are going to be very keen on keeping themselves alive. This sounds like you're trying to make yourself unlynchable and it concerns me.

^ If keychain is scum then she is very keen on staying alive eh?

VOTE: keychain

You are scum who need to push a chosen townie to win

Home run by mulch?

And you led a counter wagon to save a buddy

Followed by a shot to to the outfield too.

VOTE: keychain

You are scum who need to push a chosen townie to win

There are two chosen townies, aren't there? I'm pretty sure everyone in this game is easier to lynch than you right now. So why would I be trying to push you instead of the other one?
On the other hand, there's only one scum.

It seems your genius plan here is to claim to be a chosen townie to give you a reason to OMGUS anyone who scumreads you.

And you led a counter wagon to save a buddy

Then why did you vote Dunn at the start of the day and not me?


Your hair-trigger reaction to my vote is way out of proportion for a townie.

Busing is much worse for scum in this set up because they can lose without ever being lynched.

How does this follow?

I know Mulch made the PM lynch happen. But if he can then sell himself as a chosen townie because of things like not getting NKed and not being a likely veto, the bus becomes worthwhile, and Mulch is someone I can see trying to pull it off.

But how does only having one scum mean they're more likely to somehow get endgamed?

Is that why you NK'd him that night keychain? Because you knew already.


Way out of proportion... but its right I bet.

240 ---> BTD: "At this moment scum want to try to avoid being detected through associations with PMysterious. In particular, my observation at the start of the game should provide interesting information.

I don't think Keychain responded to my observation, and they didn't have that much content on PMysterious. This evidence at the moment is quite weak, but it could lean slightly towards them being scum with PMysterious."

^ DING DING! (it fits in with everything else)

Keychain 273: "To be honest I'm pretty bloody wary of Mulch's scumplay, and so I'm seeing him through that lens. There's the possibility that he thought by bussing his partner he could throw heavy suspicion on chosen townies. But mostly his reiterating that he's possibly a chosen townie and then reacting like that to my vote give me terrible feelings.

You are doing great because your questioning of Gorny shows a focus on trying to get information that will help you evaluate who is town and who is scum."

Mulch's scum play?? This tosses up a red flag for me, especially now that Mulch was NK'd. Also possible that her comment on tman's questioning of me keeps the attention off her there.

277 STill pushing a BTD lynch.

Umlaut, the way you manage to start each day on a new page will never fail to impress me!

VOTE: Keychain

Keychain was pushing for the lynch of BTD both days. On day 1 this was also to protect PM. She specifically wanted BTD over LUV over here:

Why LUV instead of BTD6, though? Their actions have been scummier in general - before they went on V/LA, all they contributed was theory spec. Then they left an RVS vote in place when they left.

The more I think about it, the more I get suspicious, ugh. Too much like someone just watching a town pull itself apart.
VOTE: BTD6_maker

She even tried to push on Mulch the other chosen townie, even when he had been very town with his vote on day 1.

I think she's had some good town reads of people, but that's because she knows everyone else is town. I still think she made good points on Dunnstral being town. It's just her reason for that argument was to get us to lynch a chosen townie over a normal one. I've had some paranoia over her town read of me, and now I think that's justified.

So tell me:
Why do you say you think I had good town reads when you were also paranoid of my town read on you?
Same question I asked Mulch - scum only need one Chosen townie lynched, so why would I have been pushing both? How does that make me more likely to be scum?

VOTE: BTD6_maker

Ok. You've convinced me. Dunnstral does seem town.

This is now L-1 on BTD.

I still think Dunn is scummy, but You've convinced me to look elsewhere. I'm willing to switch my vote to BTD but I'm not going to hammer without at least saying something about it.

I'm suspicious of both of the above last minute jumps on the BTD6 wagon with no reasons given. I've made it pretty clear I thought Dunn was town, so yes I'm going to go out of my way to avoid him getting lynched for stupid reasons and try and get my scumread lynched instead.

However I

don't

think I defended him to the point that two people would suddenly jump off of his wagon - I find it very likely that one of you was taking the opportunity to get the BTD6 lynch through with minimum responsibility. I make some bad pushes as town, but the bright side is that scum are easily caught jumping aboard.

Given the way Gorny opened with

Whelp that went well.

VOTE: Dunnstral

a vote on Dunnstral after hammering BTD6 because I "convinced him to look elsewhere", I think it may be him.

VOTE: Gorny

Hmmm.

That does make sense.

I'm going to reread over lunch, also going to look over Mulch's interactions with other people. At work now though, might not post again for another 10 hours or so.

UNVOTE: Dunnstral

Being convinced of anything and everything is not a town trait. If Gorny is scum, we are making his job very easy - all he has to do is weakly push Dunn and jump on whatever wagons town present to him.

Here's the thing keychain:

I'm not scum.

So it's going to come down to who people believe, based on all of the above I believe you are scum and maybe you're nervous like you said in 335 because therels a chance that things might backfire against you?

if you are scum, it doesn't matter who you think is scum over anyone else, a lynch of any one of us is what you need to stay afloat.

So, Im going to shoot another hole in your life raft: VOTE: keychain

tman2nd
Gorny
BTD6_maker
Mulch
Wait untl I get more townreads

That was my scumpool btw

Can you elaborate a bit more on those?

Bulba an answer would be nice. You never explained that but instead voted me in 340

[Keychain]

...
Gorny, I think you're scum. I know it's in your best interest as scum to try and piggyback on tman's push. If you were town you would be trying to get your main scumread lynched. You know? Dunnstral? But no. You're going after me because you don't actually care who gets lynched, as long as it's not you.

So you have gone through my ISO to try and justify jumping on my wagon and have done it in such a transparently scummy way I'm kind of shocked. You have made some of the huuuuugest reaches I have ever seen in my life (particularly your point regarding my first post), you have pointed out seemingly random things that I've done as if they make me scum but without providing a reason for them coming from a scum mindset, and you've made some sarky comments that are in no way shape or form explaining why I am scum and are instead just assuming I am. Like this does not come from a townie explaining why they think someone is town. This is scum going through a townie ISO and trying to come up with reasons they're scum and just not doing that great a job at it.


And then you capped it off with the most convincing argument I've ever seen: "I'm not scum." Followed by

if you are scum, it doesn't matter who you think is scum over anyone else, a lynch of any one of us is what you need to stay afloat.

Like... dude.

You're describing yourself here.

I started responding point by point but thought I'd leave this here first. I'll get back to my longer response, maybe this evening but maybe tomorrow.


@tman: If you're paranoid of my townread on you, you should check out Gorny's. It appears to hinge on the fact that I voted you on page 2.

[Gorny]

Is that.all you can come up with keychain?

Weaksauce.




Like



Not even





Spicy





At



All.

[Gorny]

Oh yeah, you're at L-1.

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: Gorny

[Umlaut]

Official Vote Count 3.01 (Final)

Gorny

(3): Keychain, Bulbazoor, Dunnstral

Keychain

(2): tman2nd, Gorny

With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.

[Umlaut]

Gorny has been lynched!

Spoiler: What was he!?

Vanilla Townie

Night 3 has fallen.

It will end in (expired on 2017-09-10 05:37:00), or once all living players have given me their permission to end the night early.

[Umlaut]

...

[Umlaut]

...