Micro 745: Beyond Death [Endgame]

[Micc]

I want to hear from Zito before I get to far into putting my thoughts down. If he's scum then he's been pooketing me all game starting with getting me the lynch I wanted Day 1 and continuing with complementing my opinions for the rest of the game. I'm open to the possibility of that being what's going on here. I'd be more comfortable having him put thoughts down first so that he isn't building his strategy for the day around how I'm leaning.

If I'm wrong for thinking that's reasonable cabd/NSG let me know, but I think it's reasonable.

[Lycanfire]

VC 5.0

The heat kept us warm. The fire cleansed the sinners.

Not Voting: Papa Zito, Micc, Cabd, Hopkirk

With 4 alive it will require 3 votes to achieve a lynch.

Day 5 will end in (expired on 2017-12-01 20:05:00).

Mod Note:
-Micc is V/LA until November 19
-Regfan replaces Cheekyteeky. Welcome, Regfan!

[Cabd]

Woah. Time to see if Regfan can guess it right for all the marbles as a confirmed town treestump.

[Regfan]

Hey everyone! Fairly aware of the precarious game state at the moment. Will be reading up on this tonight and probably share my thoughts and reads then. If there's anything in particular you want me to focus on when reading through let me know, people increasing their activity if possible over the next few days (Since running this down to deadline isn't a great idea) would be very much appreciated.

Will say that Cabd is v scummy to me, all these votes on town from him is very frikking much him being mafia, can we please just lynch him here? On the off chance he's town he deserves to lose and I'll just joint with the mafia there, win/win!

[Regfan]

Woah. Time to see if Regfan can guess it right for all the marbles as a confirmed town treestump.

Yeah, no pressure!

I'd like to line up a time to actually live discuss some reads with you if possible (I'm really not a fan or believer in "conftowns should hold their reads as to not influence others or have others just agree with them"), when do you think would work for you? Ideally give me ~24 hours to have caught up but after that most times work for me.

[Cabd]

I'm central time, otherwise pick your poison.

Evenings my time are best; like... 40 hours from this post would be great.

[Cabd]

FYI you're not the only confotown stump sooooo

[Regfan]

40 hours from now is ideal for me too, well aware I'm not the only stump but organising multiple people to be online at once seems unrealistic.

[Cabd]

I believe NSG and I share a time zone, if not a city.

[northsidegal]

i think i'll probably be online around then - i'll try to join in on the treestump party!

[Regfan]

Awesome! I'll make sure to be up to date by then, currently back on page ~12 but there's already one person I'd be

very

surprised if they're scum.

[Micc]

Oh man am I invited to this party?

[Micc]

And by that I mean let me know if you want me here or not. If y'all want to pow wow on your own I'll get some much needed sleep but I would make myself available if you all wanted it.

[northsidegal]

given that you'll probably be a frequent topic of discussion it might be in your own interest to show up - it's up to you.

[Regfan]

If you're able to be on then sure, but I don't think it's a huge deal if you're unable to. I'll probably chat with you a bit before then anyway.

[Micc]

fire away regfan.

[Regfan]

Will be home from work in a few hours, I'll drop the questions/things I'd like answered from you then.

[Micc]

alright I'm going to bed in 15 minutes if no one else is here

[Regfan]

@Micc -

I'll preface this by saying I'm ~95% sure you're town here for a plethora of reasons but I have an inkling that some of the other players are leaning in the opposite direction. And if I'm going to bat for you here I'd like to be a little more certain you're town, so please don't take this as me attacking your play but more wanting to understand sections of it a bit more. Please take your time answering these since I'm in no rush and would prefer more detailed answers than quicker ones.

The three main things I'd like from you are the following:

1) I'd like your updated thoughts on Chip <-> SS/Zito and Chip <-> Hopkirk interactions throughout D1 now knowing that from your point of view one of them has to be mafia, I know you've gone into them previously in Post 896 and pointed out for the most part you didn't think they were mafia but obviously a reassessment and looking at it in light of the flips necessary. Also would like your thoughts on both SS/Zito & Hopkirks read progression on Chip as well as what they'd actually did in terms of getting him lynched revisited. I'd also like your stance of "scum aren't incentivised to buss" elaborated on since I very very strongly disagree and would almost 100% be bussing in this iteration of the setup, there's no investigatives to catch you and you don't have to worry about the "why haven't you been night killed" argument so a good buss leads to a win....a lot of the time. So convince me that your stance is something you genuinely believe(d) in and why here since you not having rethought through this is fairly out of line with the caliber of player I think you are and one of the few things stopping me from locking you as town.

2) I'd also like your thoughts on Zito & Hopkirk re; the fact that we know that mafia called followers (Which I agree is the sub optimal move) as well as their reactions to it happening and their involvement and posting during the Cheeky lynch; again you know that one of them submitted that action so which of their play around that area do you think makes more/less sense as scum due to it and why? I'm aware you've gone into this a bit in Post 914 but now that the BTD scenarios are out of the question I'd like you to delve a little more into this than just "WIFOM" as an explanation.

3) I'd also like a little more thoughts of yours on how the Northside/BTD/Cheekey lynches played out since I'm looking over that section of the game and just...wanting to bang my head against the table over and over again out of complete disbelief at how little actual conversation and re-consideration happened during those with the exception of yourself on Northside for a small period. I think there were a lot of points that could have been brought up to point out all three being town but very little were actually done so from yourself or others, so was there any thoughts you'd had on those three that you'd not put into the thread that might help me understand your play re; them a little more? And what do you make of Zito & Hopkirks play throughout that period?

[Regfan]

I'll be around casually finishing reading the thread and trying to get a solid grip on Hopkirk & Zitos alignment for the next few hours since I'm probably going to be advocating for a lynch between them here, if anyone wants to pop in and have a quick conversation about them it'd be appreciated.

[Regfan]

@Hopkirk -

I'm going to need you to explain a few things for me about your day 1 play here since I'm looking at your Chip progression and it's....a very bad look for you here, so convince me that this is you as town rather than just awkwardly distancing with your partner but not wanting to commit to a buss.

In your Post 110 you pointed out Chips "If I get lynched look on my wagon" as being overly concerned which was a good point IMO probably one of the scummiest posts from him in the thread. You then touch on something else you dislike of him in Post 245, your focus and vote being on NSG during this isn't great given the flips but is somewhat understandable given I don't think your reasoning behind being suspicious of her was awful or anything. You then spending Post 345 as to pointing out Chips weird read on you and focusing on issues in his posting in Post 346 to then move to vote Cheeky in Post 372 again isn't great re; flips but somewhat understandable given your reasoning. It's the move from her to BTD in Post 425 that I have the biggest problem with, sure you put some reasoning down with the vote but it's a read that doesn't match your previous reads so much and it not being a vote on Chip when a natural progression would suggest that's where you'd vote looks /very/ scummy to me there. Your first vote on Chip isn't until Post 531 after Zito drops some reasoning behind the slot being scum and Cabd/Micc have already moved across to him which I think is a mostly NAI type vote in that I think Town!You votes there and I can also see Scum!You voting there given your prior stated read on him and recognition that with the prior votes he was dead weight. The interactions you have with Chip differ quite a bit from those to Cheeky and NSG as well.

So like, if you're town here what was stopping you from voting or pushing Chip throughout D1? Can you explain the vote placement you had on BTD D1 a little more for me since I find it a particularly weird vote given your statement that you thought he'd subbed in later on in Post 883. What should be I be looking through your ISO and play this game and coming away with you being town from? Like what do you think you've done here that's outside your scum range or do you think you'd have done differently if scum? Really would take any ;words; from you here because I don't think the above is a nail in the coffin that points to you being scum or anything like that and I'm

very

far from making a decision or a call here but I interaction wise I don't see much that looks good for you.

[Hopkirk]

Pretty much, Chip was never my highest scumread before then, then he became my highest scumread.

When I switched away from Cheeky to BTD that was because she had subbed out and BTD had just (effectively) come in. I was intending to switch to Cheeky again when the slot got a sub since she was still my top scumread by a fair margin. I didn’t vote Chip there since a.) BTD stuff- I wanted to engage with him to sort someone I hadn’t sorted, and since it was closer than Chip’s problematic stuff, and b.) it didn’t make much sense to push Chip when I was intending to switch back to the Cheeky slot when a sub came in. At that point, Chip was less scummy than Cheeky.

I became more suspicious of BTD and less of Cheeky after she responded satisfactorily. Voting BTD wasn’t getting him to answer questions (so leaving my vote on him to get answers was somewhat redundant), plus the wagon was falling apart anyway. Still scumread BTD, but a vote there wasn’t doing much.
At the same time, Chip’s interactions with PZ, and what I said that PZ pointed out specifically, made me more suspicious of Chip than before. It reminded me of Chip’s earlier interactions with me that I hadn’t liked, but hadn’t been enough to make him scummier than Cheeky before. That made him scummier than BTD (who I scumread in a fair part for not answering questions).
In summary- Chip was a lesser scumread compared to others for most of the game to that point. Scumread on Chip increased while other scumreads (or places to vote) decreased.

I’ll quote some stuff from my iso now and respond to your other questions then.

[Hopkirk]

345- At this point I was still discussing my North case, which I saw merit in. Said around here that I only scumleaned on Chip too.
372- If someone says ‘x is true’ when x is demonstrably false, and sticks to it when it’s explicitly pointed out, and after that refuses to engage, then I will always vote that person. She flipped town, but acting like that is always heavily anti-town, which is a better scum indicator than other stuff.
425- I unvoted because Cheeky said she was subbing out. I also hadn’t interacted with the slot, and it’s good to interact. Other reasons too, but I explained them in more detail last post. I also voted him partially as a potential Cheeky partner since Cheeky was by far my top scumread then.
I don’t see how it’s strange I voted him when I thought he subbed in. I thought he subbed in because he had no significant posts, so I didn’t remember him in thread before. In terms practical effect in that regard, he did sub in. I didn’t like his entrance.

[Regfan]

In summary- Chip was a lesser scumread compared to others for most of the game to that point. Scumread on Chip increased while other scumreads (or places to vote) decreased.

I understand the above and I think for the most part I have minimal issue with the placement and timing of your NGS and Cheeky votes, it's the BTD one that I'm still left ?? at and your reasoning of "I didn't vote Chip because I was going to move back to Cheeky so I went BTD" doesn't really actually explain much at all when my question is effectively why did you vote BTD over Chip there. Like if I'm going through your ISO and looking at your stated thoughts and reads the only mention of BTD from you before your vote on him is asking him to explain some reads/thoughts back in Post 247 and then bam suddenly he's the person you're voting over Chip who you spend a lot of effort and time commenting on. Like I'm looking at this and the fact that BTD has flipped town and Chip scum and wondering how you've barely been mentioned the past few days and just dumbfounded by it? I'm hoping your next post may explain what I'm missing here.

425- I unvoted because Cheeky said she was subbing out. I also hadn’t interacted with the slot, and it’s good to interact. Other reasons too, but I explained them in more detail last post. I also voted him partially as a potential Cheeky partner since Cheeky was by far my top scumread then.
I don’t see how it’s strange I voted him when I thought he subbed in. I thought he subbed in because he had no significant posts, so I didn’t remember him in thread before. In terms practical effect in that regard, he did sub in. I didn’t like his entrance.

Yeah, I can understand the unvote on Cheeky, zero qualms with that there, the "voted due to potential Cheeky" partner is somewhat understandable albeit not particularly good town play but like, if you take a look at the reasons you voted BTD for ie. his Post 383 and Post 421 and then compare them to your own stances it's kind of hard to fathom.

Like sure, BTD didn't vote Cheeky inside his first post and if you're contemplating a world of BTD!Scum & Cheeky!Scum that's something that you'll have in mind but faulting him for not voting inside 421 when he's commented on the replacement situation (ie. the same reason you'd unvoted her) feels hypothetical to a degree and if the reasoning is a case of "he's not voting anyone" which is what you have an issue with a vote count in Post 415 has Chip not voting so uhh?

I'm looking at your own posts and reads, your own reasoning and not understanding how you haven't voted Chip there.

[Regfan]

Was there anything of Chips that had you questioning your scum read on him at all or was there something holding you back from voting him at that stage is what I'm trying to get at because the BTD scum read a) Comes out of nowhere and b) Reasoning wise feels like it and more could be attributed to Chip with the exception of the "Feels like a Cheeky scum partner" section. I'll also take the 'what do you think you've done here outside your scum range' question answered which I'm imagining you're currently working on and whatever unfiltered thoughts you have on Zito & Micc would be awesome.