Micro 772: Jester Nightless

[Something_Smart]

Do you think scum-me expected me and Not_Mafia to both live to endgame?

I don't think you expected him to die on D1.

Otherwise I wasn't really thinking about this so idk what you're asking.

What I'm getting at is, I wouldn't ever defend my partner like that, especially if he were playing the way Not_Mafia was. It would be an action that would draw a lot of attention for probably no benefit, and the attention I'd draw would be even worse if I actually manged to save him day 1 and then he got lynched later. (In that regard I must thank Ari for the lolhammer.)

I'm under the impression that my defense of Not_Mafia is the main thing about me that's perplexing you (given that I'm no longer possibly the jester). So I want to push you to go beyond the obvious "he defended scum" and look a little deeper at the motivation.

Regarding eth0s, if he believed that he or Not_Mafia was guaranteed to die (unlikely since the jester claims were jokes and shouldn't really affect anything), why DIDN'T he go for max towncred? He didn't go for ANY towncred; in fact the phrasing of his vote made it look like he was actually distancing himself a little bit from the coming flip.

[JaydragonKing]

Ah fuck. It took until day 5, but now we have to think about Strategy.

Elsa's one weakness.

[Something_Smart]

You wanna talk about your townread on Math?

[Mathdino]

Ahh I see what you're saying.

I hope you understand the issue though with me getting a response that's basically "I wouldn't do that as scum". Like, the fact that you're even still here is proof that hard-defending a scumflip DOESN'T get you lynched. I'm not gonna townread you for something when you clearly expect to be townread for it.

re: ethos: Earlier votes mean more towncred, that's all I mean by "max".

I assume this is heading into your reads list looking something like Math > Jay > ethos > SS.

The thing is, it's almost the equivalent of LyLo. Any scum would know they need to not get lynched and would also know who they need to lynch to win. I don't see the questions you're asking as having much benefit given that scum-me is gonna say whatever looks most town under pressure. The same goes for you; it's why I'm not interrogating you or ethos (like asking him why he lolhammered or voted N_M, because it really doesn't matter now).

If you want to make a case on me, you should do so. Rn though you're doing this weird thing that seems like you're preemptively defending yourself against a situation where ethos flips town (you know where this is going, the old "SS knows ethos won't flip scum"). I wasn't going after you in the first place today.

[Something_Smart]

As scum you're going to say whatever you think looks town.

As town you're going to say what you honestly think.

THAT's the point.

And by the way, I don't make cases. Cases do a terrible job of conveying how I really feel about things, and pretty much every case I've ever made has been a disaster. You are correct that I see you as most likely to be scum, but I'm still figuring out the best way to explain why I feel that way.

[Something_Smart]

And you got way more towncred off the Not_Mafia wagon than eth0s did despite being on it later. Early votes do not necessarily equal more towncred.

[Mathdino]

Then I'm not sure if anything I say is gonna change that. I literally tell newbies that once votes are cast in LyLo you should basically ignore everything people say unless there are outright slips going on. Like, if you're not convinced I'm town by reading my ISO (and honestly a lot of what I've said is pretty easily gleaned from my ISO), then we're at an impasse. Plus this is exacerbating my paranoia; initially I figured "okay ethos is scum and we just win if I convince them of this obvious thing" but now it looks like you're gearing up for a Mathdino --> ethos lynch, because you know I'd win in LyLo against you and you know you'd win in LyLo against a flailing ethos.

You're a good player and a lot of what you've done is honestly what I think I'd have done as scum in your position (harddefending my partner because I have a meta of defending people, arguing with people who think I'm jester, setting up for a better lynch order). You seem to play like how I play as scum. I want to think that's playstyle but if you're literally unwilling to lynch ethos I have to assume the worst.

And I'm guessing that's because the jester thing was the only thing keeping me from voting N_M. It's one of those wagons that I was technically "on" early in that without jester I'd have been the first one to place that vote, and I think that's pretty clear.

[Something_Smart]

I hope you understand the issue though with me getting a response that's basically "I wouldn't do that as scum". Like, the fact that you're even still here is proof that hard-defending a scumflip DOESN'T get you lynched. I'm not gonna townread you for something when you clearly expect to be townread for it.

Proof that hard-defending a scumflip as town doesn't ALWAYS get you lynched immediately. (Sometimes it does, as I pointed out.) I don't know that I've ever seen a situation where scum hard-defending their partner who was then lynched lived to the end of the game. Because most scum players cannot replicate their towngame perfectly. Town who are in that position are going to respond differently from scum who are in the same position. And since you don't know my alignment (unless you do ), you can't say that this game is an example of a situation where scum hard-defended their partner and survived without begging the question.

[Something_Smart]

Would you still have advocated to policy lynch Not_Mafia if you were scum?

[Something_Smart]

By the way, we're not at an impasse. We're at a point where we have to discuss instead of quicklynching another player. Even if what you said about ignoring people in LYLO is true (and I'm skeptical), this isn't LYLO and what people say here will make a huge difference if the game goes another day.

[Jingle]

Ah fuck. It took until day 5, but now we have to think about Strategy.

Elsa's one weakness.

Gah, bullets. My only weakness! How could you ever have guessed?

[Mathdino]

Would you still have advocated to policy lynch Not_Mafia if you were scum?

Hadn't thought about that. Good q

I mean, in an (effectively) 8p Nightless game, it'd be pretty hard to win after D1 scumpartner lynch.

If I were scum and N_M was town, then yeah I'd definitely lynch N_M just because it'd reflect weirdly on me if I didn't. Keeping him alive is an anti-town thing in general, and Jay and I have several pieces of evidence for that.

If I were scum WITH N_M, I don't think that situation would've happened in the first place. N_M is capable of playing well when he tries, and I think he's also capable of emulating his towngame. I think I would've come up with a plan pre-game that would result in that me vs N_M situation never having to happen. By my own strategy, D1-D3 should be spent lynching those who aren't claiming jester, and D4-D5 should be spent lynching those who claimed/acted like jester and are still alive. Having N_M do the jester thing (as not-jester) and then having me act not-jester would really be a great way to get myself lynched D1-D3 and then get N_M immediately lynched D4.

I play scum in such a way that town-me wouldn't catch me, and I scumhunt in such a way that would catch scum-me. It's a weird equilibrium.



But now that I think about it, much more likely however is I would just replace out if I found I was scum with N_M since this isn't really a game I wanted to be in in the first place.

[Something_Smart]

Why wouldn't you just policy bus him and try to win the game on your own, knowing that you'd have an excellent excuse if you didn't?

(Because I'm pretty sure those earlier plans wouldn't have worked. He WAS emulating his towngame as I'm pretty sure he would have done the exact same thing as town, and as you said before he rarely communicates with his scumbuddies and probably wouldn't have listened to whatever plan you made.)

[Mathdino]

If I didn't what?

And because D2/D3 would likely wreck me on the "Mathdino is clearly not a jester" strategy. I'm low-key surprised I didn't get lynched on that and paranoia alone.

I'd like to think they would. I don't see evidence that N_M really strategises or takes initiative with his scumbuddies, but I feel like I would've had enough time pre-game to come up with something good.

Why would N_M act in such a way that forces his scumpartner to bus him, knowing full well who I am? (this is by the way also why I'm townreading Jay, although I don't think Jay would've strategised much)

ethos: I don't think N_M would've planned anything with ethos
you: were defending him anyway

Like I said, I think his jester strategy was specifically a way to dodge the me/Jay D1 policy lynch strategy that we promised for him at the end of our last game. Maybe it's self centred but I think he did it to taunt/mock me in particular.

[Something_Smart]

If you didn't win.

[Something_Smart]

I think that's self-centered. I'm pretty sure in retrospect that he would have done what he did no matter his alignment, which is why I townread him (because I figured he'd be smart enough to not do it as scum), and also why I checked to see if he had confirmed.

[Mathdino]

If you didn't win.

Meh, having a good excuse for not winning isn't my style. I'd rather just not lose.

Tbh the more I think about the lolworthy scenario of me rolling scum with N_M (who is literally why I haven't joined a bunch of games), the more I think that the best thing for both of us would be to have me replace out so I wouldn't HAVE to bus him. I don't think I've ever hard-bussed as scum.

And if he was going that off the reservation in terms of not following whatever plan I come up with...

I'd have a MUCHHHH better excuse for replacing out (oh, uh, I'm in a Large, 2 minis, a micro, I'm modding a game and Team Mafia is coming up, and I joined this game as a stupid impulse decision) than I would have for losing (YEAH FUCK YOU NOT_MAFIA FOR MAKING ME LOSE says the sore loser).

[Something_Smart]

Replacing out because you rolled scum with a troll and claiming it was due to overgaming is unethical though.

[Mathdino]

Trolling is unethical though.

Idk what to tell you. I've, as scum, replaced out/modkilled myself before due to other players in the game. In a multiball game, some guy joined the game with his alt and started trolling me. I replaced out when he altslipped. On some Discord server I had a gamethrowing scum who didn't listen and fakeclaimed a cop guilty on me (while suggesting strongly that he wasn't playing to wincon) so I ended it.

As town I far prefer to just lynch the player in question. And if I get lynched for it, so be it. At least I did a good thing.

[JaydragonKing]

It's also called strategy. But if I saw that, I immediately would have hung Dino's spot before he could replace, and then we'd focus on NotMaf afterwards.

Dino does commitments, that much I know.

[Mathdino]

I'm surprised you'd do that?

Anyway this all depends on the reachy scenario that we rolled scum together, I came up with a winning strategy for the two of us, and he outright ignored it, while trolling me in the daythread and taunting me.

I think scum with ethos (they both just did whatever the fuck they wanted) makes a lot more sense.

Jay, thoughts on what's happening?

[Jingle]

Surely you jest!

I do jest, and don't call me shirley.

[Mathdino]

@Mod

: Request that you get to work on the flavour before we lynch again!!!!

[JaydragonKing]

I said it day 3 that we only had to Lynch everyone who's not you and me to win, but I really do think Ethos is the final scum, more likely then Ethos.

He probably was going along with what NotMaf did at the beginning, you know? "Too scummy to be scum", or in this case, Jester. You saw him do the "mafia PT" joke, which was him following in NotMaf's footsteps. Then he realized he fucked up following him and did a complete 180.

He did a noob mistake and decided to believe NotMaf wouldn't fuck him over. Current final decision for Day 5.

[Mathdino]

So let's get on with it. I think ethos made his case. Personally I don't buy the "reaction test" thing and I see a lot of newbscum doubling back using the reaction test excuse. I think he just knew that pushing me was non-viable.