New Rule: Replace the Word "Lynch" in Games

[AniX]

The word lynch is mafia, as Reck has said, has gotten to the point where it is a threat to the legitimacy of mafia. Whether people SHOULD or SHOULDN'T associate the word with racial violence is completely irrelevant honestly, the fact remains people do and mafia either needs to adapt or will suffer. That the Swastika actually means something mundane doesn't change the fact it also means something abominable to a large number of people This site is far past its heyday and the last the community needs is to drive players away and make current members embarrassed to talk about it in public or even play the game in public.

[AniX]

One thing I will say, this thread is a true honeypot for people I have NEVER seen around the community before in my 17 years on this site who now suddenly are so very concerned with the culture of the site. Like, no offense, Elsa Jay, but I'm not sure your two years on the site qualified you to be its mouthpiece.

[AniX]

The amount of people actually, legitimately bent out of shape and to some degree UPSET AND ANGRY about having to use a different word in a forum game because a different word is hurtful to some people is...pathetic to say the absolute least. You'd think half these people were the ones who wrote the standard definition of lynch in the dictionary, the way they are taking something extremely easy, simple, and inconsequential for them to follow so personally.

[AniX]

Can you direct me to where I suggested any arguments on behalf of anyone else? I suggested that there were some people who were bent out of shape and to some degree angry and upset. I don't believe giving my impression of someone's state of mind quite rises to the level of a scarecrow. I didn't even name anyone, so if you are discussing it without being bent out of shape, angry, or upset...it doesn't apply to you?

[AniX]

Unless you believe I was legitimately suggesting that some people in this thread are motivated solely by their professional attachment to their dictionary work?

[AniX]

on a serious note, Enter
*is this the hill you want to die on
*how much are you thinking about what your last post on this site might be

No. I don't think anyone should die on this hill. I think it's ridiculous that it's come to this discussion in the first place. I doubt I'll die on this hill -- I don't think I've said anything egregious enough for anyone to stab me -- and if I do, it will mean the site's in a place where I'm not losing much anyways. I'm legitimately upset you seem to think this is a shameful stance to take, but I won't support turning forum games into racial, political, or social commentary, nor am I particularly interested in spending any significant amount of time censoring myself because someone might go out of their way to be offended by it.

Ok so you ARE legitimately upset because you have been asked to stop using a word. I have news for you: There are plenty of phrases connected to racial, social, and political commentary you can't use in mafia already.

[AniX]

Can you direct me to where I suggested any arguments on behalf of anyone else? I suggested that there were some people who were bent out of shape and to some degree angry and upset. I don't believe giving my impression of someone's state of mind quite rises to the level of a scarecrow. I didn't even name anyone, so if you are discussing it without being bent out of shape, angry, or upset...it doesn't apply to you?

Unless you believe I was legitimately suggesting that some people in this thread are motivated solely by their professional attachment to their dictionary work?

I don't think anyone is upset because they can't use the word lynch.

Friend, you literally said the phrase "legitimately upset". And have just admitted you cancelled an entire game over being unable to use literally one word. If this is your calm rational engagement on a heavy issue, I'd hate to see you get emotional.

[AniX]

Me, very calmly: "You want me to stop using one word? This is turning every single mafia thread into USPol Part 2. That's it, I'm cancelling my game."

[AniX]

Me, very calmly: "You want me to stop using one word? This is turning every single mafia thread into USPol Part 2. That's it, I'm cancelling my game."

Your grasp of the situation is almost as good as that of Mufasa's.

Ok, so explain it to me. Why is this one word so important that you will cancel your entire game over it? Is it, as you say, you see the removal of the word as some blatant political act? If so, do you object to other politically based censorship that routinely occurs in games? Apparently not, those restrictions have been in place for a very long time, LONG before you even joined and you had no difficulty adhering to them. Slurs on the basis of orientation are relatively newly banned, for example. I recall referring to things as "gay" as a way to dismiss it was very vogue during the early years, but surely you wouldn't be able to refer to an argument in a mafia game you find lacking as "gay" now. I don't recall you cancelling any games over that policy stance, but perhaps I missed it.

It seems like your argument can't be "I oppose all politically based censorship" because you don't have any large objection to it otherwise. It seems like your argument is specifically "I oppose censorship on words I like and want to keep using". Which is an understandable position but not a very logical one, so we must conclude it is an emotional one and...here we are.

[AniX]

While we're at it
I have the following suggestions
The word "wagon" should no longer be used, when black people were slaves in the US, they'd use wagons to carry stuff. Ergo it instils racist history into our game and may upset people.
The word "bus" should no longer be used, Rosa Park sat on the bus. Ergo using it instils racist history into our game and may upset people.
The Tracker role, should be removed. It may upset victims of stalking.
Execution / similar is also not acceptable, during the Holocaust, and still in many places in the world today, people were executed by firing squad, this may upset people.
Voting should also be removed, in America democracy doesn't always work ie Trump 2016 or Bush 2004. This will make people young innocent people to believe democracy exists, thus upsetting people.
Mafia the name, should also be removed, there have been many victims to the Mafia, especially in places like Italy. Don't be xenophobic and upset Italians who may have suffered!
FoS should also be removed! Pointing at people may trigger anxiety!!
Throughout many years many were killed by Ninja. Do you want to upset the Japanese or the fortnite players?!?!
Strongman should be changed to strongperson or strongthing! You don't want to upset people! Not only men can be strong!
Similar to tracker, watcher should be removed! For victims of stalking and voyeur stuff!
Beloved Princess isn't gender neutral!
Bomb should be removed as a role for the vets out there and the refugees!
Godfather, of course changed to godparent.
Hooker!!!! How dare you portray women as sexual objects with that word!!
Judas??? We aren't all from christian majority countries. This is not okay!!
Paranoid as a role modifier? Are we making fun of people with anxiety?
Virgin sexualises people!!

This ^ is all nonsense. Grow up. I'm not going to stop using Lynch. Either we ban everything incase we upset people, or we ban nothing. If we only ban stuff which upsets the black community, you're saying every other community hasn't suffered or they're suffering is invalid. It's disgusting, your attempt to be woke has shown just how much you hate races which aren't black.
This topic and new rule is baloney.

My friend's cousin's mum's dog's walker's mum's friend unfortunately committed suicide by noose. It's not much to go off but seeing it reminds me that people suffer, and that I should be doing what I can to help people. Removing it will negatively impact my gameplay.

^ obviously bullshit.
I encourage a lot of you to go join the "Im 14 and this is deep" reddit page. You'll feel at home.

You ever read a post and know for a fact in about 3 posts you'll have to report them for racial slurs?

[AniX]

If you're intending on banning me, here's a good last post for you:

I'm a member of the site because I enjoy playing mafia and I have friends here. I expect people who are in situations they disagree with to bring up their discontent and if it becomes obvious they are in a situation they cannot change, they should leave such a place. I have lived such behavior when I encountered unfathomably toxic mindsets in the Speakeasy and other parts of the site. It is apparent I am involved in such a situation again, so I will not be a game moderator given the petty censorship of site administration of game moderators. For this reason I intend to moderate no games. It doesn't matter what word or phrase the site decided it's game moderators could not use, and regardless of whether or not I was planning on using it anyways, I won't put myself in situations where I have to deal with people like that.

Literally nobody interacting with you is a mod or has banning power? For someone who is not upset, you sure leap directly from "members criticizing your stance and questioning you" to "IF I MUST BE BANNED, LET THIS BE MY FINAL STATEMENT"

[AniX]

While we're at it
I have the following suggestions
The word "wagon" should no longer be used, when black people were slaves in the US, they'd use wagons to carry stuff. Ergo it instils racist history into our game and may upset people.
The word "bus" should no longer be used, Rosa Park sat on the bus. Ergo using it instils racist history into our game and may upset people.
The Tracker role, should be removed. It may upset victims of stalking.
Execution / similar is also not acceptable, during the Holocaust, and still in many places in the world today, people were executed by firing squad, this may upset people.
Voting should also be removed, in America democracy doesn't always work ie Trump 2016 or Bush 2004. This will make people young innocent people to believe democracy exists, thus upsetting people.
Mafia the name, should also be removed, there have been many victims to the Mafia, especially in places like Italy. Don't be xenophobic and upset Italians who may have suffered!
FoS should also be removed! Pointing at people may trigger anxiety!!
Throughout many years many were killed by Ninja. Do you want to upset the Japanese or the fortnite players?!?!
Strongman should be changed to strongperson or strongthing! You don't want to upset people! Not only men can be strong!
Similar to tracker, watcher should be removed! For victims of stalking and voyeur stuff!
Beloved Princess isn't gender neutral!
Bomb should be removed as a role for the vets out there and the refugees!
Godfather, of course changed to godparent.
Hooker!!!! How dare you portray women as sexual objects with that word!!
Judas??? We aren't all from christian majority countries. This is not okay!!
Paranoid as a role modifier? Are we making fun of people with anxiety?
Virgin sexualises people!!

This ^ is all nonsense. Grow up. I'm not going to stop using Lynch. Either we ban everything incase we upset people, or we ban nothing. If we only ban stuff which upsets the black community, you're saying every other community hasn't suffered or they're suffering is invalid. It's disgusting, your attempt to be woke has shown just how much you hate races which aren't black.
This topic and new rule is baloney.

My friend's cousin's mum's dog's walker's mum's friend unfortunately committed suicide by noose. It's not much to go off but seeing it reminds me that people suffer, and that I should be doing what I can to help people. Removing it will negatively impact my gameplay.

^ obviously bullshit.
I encourage a lot of you to go join the "Im 14 and this is deep" reddit page. You'll feel at home.

You ever read a post and know for a fact in about 3 posts you'll have to report them for racial slurs?

I'm not racist nor am I a hypocrit.
Either we ban everything under the sun which could be offensive, or nothing. I don't hold the black race higher than any other race. All of them are equal. I won't give a race nor demographic special treatment, hence, ban everything or nothing. That's equality.

What term for systematic extermination of white people do we still use on this site that should be banned? I'll oppose using it as a replacement for lynch right alongside you, if you simply name it.

[AniX]

Me, very calmly: "You want me to stop using one word? This is turning every single mafia thread into USPol Part 2. That's it, I'm cancelling my game."

Your grasp of the situation is almost as good as that of Mufasa's.

Ok, so explain it to me. Why is this one word so important that you will cancel your entire game over it? Is it, as you say, you see the removal of the word as some blatant political act? If so, do you object to other politically based censorship that routinely occurs in games? Apparently not, those restrictions have been in place for a very long time, LONG before you even joined and you had no difficulty adhering to them. Slurs on the basis of orientation are relatively newly banned, for example. I recall referring to things as "gay" as a way to dismiss it was very vogue during the early years, but surely you wouldn't be able to refer to an argument in a mafia game you find lacking as "gay" now. I don't recall you cancelling any games over that policy stance, but perhaps I missed it.

It seems like your argument can't be "I oppose all politically based censorship" because you don't have any large objection to it otherwise. It seems like your argument is specifically "I oppose censorship on words I like and want to keep using". Which is an understandable position but not a very logical one, so we must conclude it is an emotional one and...here we are.

My argument is "I oppose all politically based censorship," or close enough to it. Your statements as to why it can't be that are invalid given I'm unaware of any preceding site-wide decree from the administration banning the use of any specific word or words. If you'd like to show me a post that serves the same purpose as this one but for a different word, I'll relinquish my point, but given your argument seems to be more of that "people shouldn't use words that hurt other people and risk administrative action for doing so" is a form of censorship, I'd disagree with you.

Ok, so your argument that this being an official and specific decree about the word, rather than the word being banned as part of a general decree about slurs, that makes it a special case worth leaving the site over?

If you're intending on banning me, here's a good last post for you:

I'm a member of the site because I enjoy playing mafia and I have friends here. I expect people who are in situations they disagree with to bring up their discontent and if it becomes obvious they are in a situation they cannot change, they should leave such a place. I have lived such behavior when I encountered unfathomably toxic mindsets in the Speakeasy and other parts of the site. It is apparent I am involved in such a situation again, so I will not be a game moderator given the petty censorship of site administration of game moderators. For this reason I intend to moderate no games. It doesn't matter what word or phrase the site decided it's game moderators could not use, and regardless of whether or not I was planning on using it anyways, I won't put myself in situations where I have to deal with people like that.

Literally nobody interacting with you is a mod or has banning power? For someone who is not upset, you sure leap directly from "members criticizing your stance and questioning you" to "IF I MUST BE BANNED, LET THIS BE MY FINAL STATEMENT"

Please, if we're going to continue discussion, at least attempt to read my posts, their context, and understand my standpoints. This is like the third time you've done something like this. My post was in response to Vi who made a relatively ominous post here:

despite not actually answering the questions, this is a clear "yes" to the first question and "no" to the second question
just making sure you're aware

what will follow may seem inevitable but it is simply consequence

I know she has been on the site for a time significantly longer than I and has better relationships with more people, and even if you were going to discount the fact that she seems to hold sway with a large portion of the site and seems like a very nice, reasonable person who a lot of people like and might be able to get administration to see her way if she felt that way on a subject, she definitely knows more about the banning policies of the site moderation team, so a statement like this holds at least a little weight.

I've been on the site even longer and I can assure you, you vastly overestimate the ability of people to get bespoke bans.

[AniX]

What term for systematic extermination of white people do we still use on this site that should be banned? I'll oppose using it as a replacement for lynch right alongside you, if you simply name it.

If you can point to a race which is being literally exterminated. I'll be thoroughly impressed. If you're referring to the current situation in America, if you think that is extermination, you have never had a pest problem before.
I admit there are things I will never experience due to my whiteness. However there are more races than black and white...
I don't know if the word is banned but in the UK using the word p***i is extremely offensive to middle eastern people. There are multiple races and demographics to take into account.

I am referring to the situation in America since 1776 regarding race.

Absolutely though, any terms referring to the genocide of Middle Easterners and any slurs about middle easterners should be banned. I don't think anyone on the mod team disagrees. I don't think many if anyone currently on the site disagrees.

[AniX]

"Oh, if you oppose racism against black people, will you ALSO oppose racism against Middle Easterners?" is not the gotcha question you thought it was.

[AniX]

ya know fun fact the French Revolution is also a lynching and the French are proud of the French Revolution, no?

Sure, but I don't believe they refer to it using the english word lynch nor does the english word lynch have the specific connotations it does in the majority english-speaking country with particularly bad racial issues connected to lynching.

[AniX]

Ok, how many of those have a direct correlation to the murder of those groups in the present day? If there has been even a single murder in the past 50 years related to greek supremacy over historical groups that were slaves to the greeks, I'd be surprised.

[AniX]

Part of English Culture is on Thursday the 5th of November (firework night), a terrorist called Guy Fawkes was killed when he tried to blow up the government. Are we not allowed to allowed to bring up Lynching and Executions anymore, even though we celebrate it every year in England?

The british government isn't a power minority group which has been historically been abused going up to the present day, has it?

[AniX]

Alright he has run out of material is now in the "repeating himself" portion. Show's over.

[AniX]

Ok, so your argument that this being an official and specific decree about the word, rather than the word being banned as part of a general decree about slurs, that makes it a special case worth leaving the site over?

Yes. To be fair, though, I've wanted to leave for a while now, I've stuck around because I like mafia and I have friends there.

However, I'm really not a fan of any of the following.
1. Censorship. Site-wide administration censoring game moderators specifically depriving them the use of a word that has heavy site culture. To be honest, at least part of me is just pissed that someone else thought it was a good idea to tell me what to do here. If the administration had said "Lynch is a word that has heavy racial implications right now, we're asking that game moderators don't use it in games," I'd probably have just moved on with my life. Petty, I know, but that's how I feel and I don't care enough in the other direction to get over it.
2. Precedent. I've felt for a while now that bans were unjustly given out based on a person's politics and how those views contradicted the views of the moderation team, and I've received a warning before because someone took words I said and used them for an alternate meaning. My post obviously did not mean the terms in the way that the person who reported me reported them for being used, but the fact that the word itself was used was what the moderation team was concerned with. I didn't particularly speak up about it at the time of any of such bans since I generally speaking try to avoid politics and other talk like that anyway and I didn't mind the warning, I just avoided the person in question, but I've feared for a while now that it's moving in this direction. Now that the team has declared its intent moving forward is to make its political views the mandatory views held on the site despite whether or not you want any part in the politics whatsoever, I'm not really interested in staying on the site, especially given the fact that the site's views seem to lean to the extreme, and it is ever more difficult to hold a moderate position.

1. Ok, but do you understand how that is an emotional position coming from a place of being upset?

2. This seems to contradict your agreement with my statement though. If you are concerned about your words being taken out of context to mean something you didn't intend, wouldn't a more explicit rule be BETTER to solve that issue? There is no room for error here on what the mod's position on "lynch" is. If they had pursued the method you suggest and folded it into a general rule against bigotry, I suspect you'd be quite perturbed and rightfully so when a mod slide into your inbox to say "Please stop using lynched, it is against site rules against bigotry".

I think the problem is you consider removing the word lynch an extreme position when it is in fact a VERY moderate position, especially in the soft way the mods have decided to enact it. If you truly 100% consider something as minor as this an extreme political position, I think you are probably right this isn't the site for you because you are just completely out of step with the morality of most everyone else here and that is going to be fun for nobody involved.

I understand if people don't want to moderate games with the new rules. We all decide on what is the best use of our time, and if the word "lynch" is integral to your enjoyment running it as a mod, then you are welcome to find other sites that use the word.

I appreciate the feedback from all parties, but that's really the short and long of it.

Is it unreasonable to suggest, as a site, we decide collectively, to remove a word? Rather than just admins deciding it? There are many people here, if you did a poll you'd see the wide site consensus. Similarly, will we be removing all potentially offensive content?

1. No

2. The people have clearly decided. There are less than 10 people max who have objected to this.

3. Guy, you joined like two weeks ago. You have literally no say in how the site is run.

[AniX]

I understand if people don't want to moderate games with the new rules. We all decide on what is the best use of our time, and if the word "lynch" is integral to your enjoyment running it as a mod, then you are welcome to find other sites that use the word.

I appreciate the feedback from all parties, but that's really the short and long of it.

so "dont like it leave"......when the site is already low on players.

Huh.

I mean realistically maybe just Enter leaves over this. But...wow.

over something so small.

Its like if you kicked out your child from your home for forgetting to take of his shoes when he entered the house.

Zor isn't telling him to leave though. This is like Zor saying "Please take off your shoes in this home, thanks!" and them going "No. In fact, I consider that such an extreme request I am cancelling this hangout right now. And probably won't come back here ever again" and Zor going "Ok, if you care that much about keeping your shoes on, you are of course welcome to leave. But this is our home and I really don't want people tracking mud in, so if you decide to stay you'll need to take your shoes off."

[AniX]

speaking as an outsider to the dominant cultural hegemony that americans on the internet try to impose everywhere - it seems absurd to remove a term so intrinsically interwoven with site culture when it isn't being used in a racially motivated way.

i see our ability to roleplay a town swept up with lynching and mob justice, not take it personally, and come out better friends because of it a positive expression of a potentially loaded concept. i like that we have the ability to use such terms in a nuanced way. i like that we are savvy enough to fantasise about murdering one another for weeks at a time, and know it is all a show. we are a small, tightknit community trained in reading the intent of people's motivations. surely we can see when someone is using the term in a racially charged way?

people may say the word is intrinsically racist. in many parts of the world, and in many contexts it isn't. i share similar sentiments expressed here by ABR.

don't construe this post as an act of dissidence. i know i am speaking on american soil here and intend to go along with the new norms. i trust that our wise overlords have their fingers on the pulse. all hail our glorious modteam, purveyors of justice, slayers of words!

I mean, I do feel like the change is unnecessary, we're (mostly) all reasonable people here who understand that we're not actually using the word Lynch in a manner meant to evoke racism, but at the end of the day, it's just a word and it isn't that big a deal to switch to something else.

I don't think the mods are suggesting people on mafiascum are using lynch in a secret-racist way and using the non-racial definition as cover to do so, and the mod move here is to stop them in their tracks.

I think it is more that outsiders or people joining the site will see it and think less of the site and less of the people on it. This is a great community with great people and the simple fact is that I often simply do not feel comfortable recommending this site to people who I know will enjoy it. Because for a lot of people, especially people who might be new to mafia/played it in a different format (werewolf, Town of Salem, etc.) signing onto a site and seeing a giant noose in the logo and lynch thrown around liberally is not going to make them go "Oh, this is just their own little quirk, let me stick around and acclimate to it so it doesn't bother me anymore". It is going to make them go "What the fuck creepy ass site is this that has a noose in the logo and is obsessed with lynching people in the year 2020" and I do not want my IRL reputation burned by having them come to the site and thinking less of me for it. I love mafiascum, obviously, I've been here for nearly 20 years. I just beg for the day I can talk about it without feeling the need to go "Ok, so, before I tell you the site you have to understand they aren't racist, the lynching and the noose is just an aesthetic of the game."

It is ultimately about creating the best version of site culture. Creating an atmosphere that is as welcoming as possible and makes the least amount of people uncomfortable as possible on an extremely valid topic as "being concerned about racial lynching" is, to me, the most important element and removing lynching as one of our most frequent terms is a extremely inadequate first step but it is a necessary first step.

[AniX]

Was anyone actually under the illusion that this was anything substantial? It is the barest of bare minimum and at least a decade overdue, the first tiny minuscule step in a long process of addressing white supremacy and racism in the mafiascum community.

[AniX]

The biggest anti-racist action the mods did today was not ban the word but post a thread about it open to comments, allowing certain people to step forward and identify themselves as people who think even the most basic, entry level, baby's first understanding of race relations step is a step too far for them.

[AniX]

okay hear me out
what if
I want to play a game of mafia
and not have to have politics shoved down my throat
because when I want to play mafia
I want to escape from the real world political drama

Great! So then you'll agree we should remove a term that is incredibly politicized by society to prevent that politicization from leaking into your mafia.

Lynch is never racist. LMAO.
It is reference to the “witch trails”
Where people lynched and killed others who were said to be a witch.

Never is a pretty big statement. Are you sure you don't want to rethink that statement that lynch is NEVER racist?

[AniX]

Great! So then you'll agree we should remove a term that is incredibly politicized by society, especially right now, to prevent that politicization from leaking into your mafia.

Its not politicized within the context of mafia.
Its politicized by people bringing saying "did you know that this term has a lot of racist background to it?"
or perhaps its politicized by a thread being globalized, reminding people that "did you know that this term has a lot of racist background to it?"

my personal opinion is that it doesn't affect me. As a player, my thoughts aren't being policed and this is good.
As a mod, I can make the edits needed.

I'm a Bernie Supporter. I live with a Bernie Supporter. She likes to listen to a lot of political postcasts w/o headphones.
I have also been annoyed in the past by feminists who preached misandry and justified it as promoting women.
I'm just saying, when I log onto this website, or actually for that matter, use the internet, am not very interested in politics.

Ok, but you recognize that just because you aren't interested in politics doesn't mean that politics ceases to exist or ceases to have an impact on people. Whether you like it or not, the term lynch is political. Nothing we do on this site will change that. We can either accept it or try to ignore it, but it still will be political.

[AniX]

I see it as similar to the whole racist statue stuff. It is ultimately not going to solve racism, it never should have happened in the first place, having happened it should have been removed years ago, having not been removed years ago it should be removed now. There is no better time to fix a mistake than today.

[AniX]

Great! So then you'll agree we should remove a term that is incredibly politicized by society, especially right now, to prevent that politicization from leaking into your mafia.

Its not politicized within the context of mafia.
Its politicized by people bringing saying "did you know that this term has a lot of racist background to it?"
or perhaps its politicized by a thread being globalized, reminding people that "did you know that this term has a lot of racist background to it?"

my personal opinion is that it doesn't affect me. As a player, my thoughts aren't being policed and this is good.
As a mod, I can make the edits needed.

I'm a Bernie Supporter. I live with a Bernie Supporter. She likes to listen to a lot of political postcasts w/o headphones.
I have also been annoyed in the past by feminists who preached misandry and justified it as promoting women.
I'm just saying, when I log onto this website, or actually for that matter, use the internet, am not very interested in politics.

Ok, but you recognize that just because you aren't interested in politics doesn't mean that politics ceases to exist or ceases to have an impact on people. Whether you like it or not, the term lynch is political. Nothing we do on this site will change that. We can either accept it or try to ignore it, but it still will be political.

You don't get it and I'ma just leave it at that.

Just because you don't agree doesn't mean I don't get it.

[AniX]

Lynch is never racist. LMAO.
It is reference to the “witch trails”
Where people lynched and killed others who were said to be a witch.

I missed this post what the fuck for real.

he's a town of salem player.

Ok, but we are all mafia players but even the people objecting to this didn't go "It is a reference to organized crime being killed"

[AniX]

This is not a thread to attack people or their stances on the matter. If you have such strong grievances with a post or a user please use the report function. This thread is open for explanation and tame discussion. Let's keep it that way.

Calling people out for their racist beliefs is not attacking people.

If you believe someone has racist beliefs or is showing them please use the report function. Do not handle the issue here.

I think there has been an incredible amount of statements that could very well be racist but could also simply be misunderstanding or a knee-jerk reaction and aren't actionable either way. I also think that the train has very much left the station on this post as a place where racism is going to be discussed and the mod team is going to really make a big error if it is indeed official policy to now declare this post off-limits to that discussion far after the onset.

[AniX]

I don't like this. I get what you guys are trying to do with this, but it is misguided

To lynch is for a mob to kill someone, especially by hanging, for an alleged offense, with or without a legal trial. It has never had any racial connotations.

Reck, you're a social mod, and I barely see you playing mafia. You shouldn't be in this thread fanning the flames harder - You're implying that certain people are being racist.

I understand that things are getting heated here, but just because somebody has a different opinion, it does not make them a racist.

This isn't simply a mafia issue though nor was Reck speaking as a mod to my knowledge, so Reck being a social mod who doesn't play mafia often doesn't really have an impact on whether he can have a valid opinion on the matter and state it openly and comprehensively as a member of the site.

[AniX]

This is not a thread to attack people or their stances on the matter. If you have such strong grievances with a post or a user please use the report function. This thread is open for explanation and tame discussion. Let's keep it that way.

Calling people out for their racist beliefs is not attacking people.

If you believe someone has racist beliefs or is showing them please use the report function. Do not handle the issue here.

Why can we, as a community, not publicly call out racists? Do we actually want them to be in this community?

Just because someone has a diffrent opinion does not make them racist, nor does anyone want a racist here. But considering this is a sensitive case just calling someone a racist/making the assumption in the thread is the wrong way to go about it.

Which is all the more reason for a discussion to happen about whether their argument that seems racist actually is, rather than simply reporting them.

[AniX]

Nothing in this thread (except perhaps the Jam stuff) was so obviously clearly racist the mods could act on it without any further information. But a lot of posts here do not have that starkness. If the only option you, as a mod, are presenting is "report or leave it alone", that is going to leave a lot of statements that seem racist unchallenged and unacted on, as nobody will be allowed to delve further into the statement but also the statement, on its own, is not going to be something the mods will have the mind-reading ability to deduce motive from.

who has a racist opinion?

Jam, for definite.

[AniX]

just because somebody has a different opinion, it does not make them a racist.

Just because someone has a diffrent opinion does not make them racist, nor does anyone want a racist here

Having racist opinions makes someone a racist.

Just because somebody has a different opinion, it does not make them a racist. If you think somebody is being racist intentionally, that is a different matter. I'm not seeing that from what I've seen so far.

Sure, but "I don't want to change the word I use in a forum game I play so I reject the notion this word is racially problematic" is a statement that could have a wide range of reasons behind it and many of them are, in fact, quite racist.

[AniX]

also i have not implied anybody is racist. not one of my posts. read better tbh.

You have:

pro tip: not being racist or making people more comfortable by not using potentially problematic words isn't political! if you think it is, you're wrong!

cancel mafia if we can't LYNCH PEOPLE with our NOOSES

Those are statements that don't target any particular person, even in a subtweet way. If a poster sees their own opinion reflected in those general criticisms, that really does sound like a them problem.

[AniX]

Yes it is. The opinion is that Lynching has nothing to do with race which is racist as Lynching has everything to do with race.

Do not confuse the United States with the entire world.

Ok, that would certainly excuse not knowing. I don't recall anyone coming into this thread in good faith going "I'm a little confused. Why would lynch be racist?" and being criticized. But not being from the United States isn't a free pass for people to ignore that the word has such a connotation in the United States, nor does it prevent them from realizing severing our connection to that connotation, even if it is in a foreign country, is more important than a particular word in a forum game.

[AniX]

you guys do know that lynchings happened long before the trans-Atlantic slave trade. I mean, yes, the word lynch does carry so many racist undertones b/c of how the KKK used lynches for black ppl but I just wanted to point out that it is has been a punishment for ONLY blacks is absolutely false.

Nobody has suggested that ONLY black people have ever been lynched. They are saying that the term lynching has been so irreversibly linked to the systematic murder of black people in the United States that it has overtaken in priority any mundane usage of the term.

There are mundane uses of the Swastika and they extend back far further than the Nazi regime, but you'll have a tough argument in suggesting we should allow swastika avatar even if they aren't the Nazi kind.

[AniX]

The amount of people actually, legitimately bent out of shape and to some degree UPSET AND ANGRY about having to use a different word in a forum game because a different word is hurtful to some people is...pathetic to say the absolute least. You'd think half these people were the ones who wrote the standard definition of lynch in the dictionary, the way they are taking something extremely easy, simple, and inconsequential for them to follow so personally.

Definition of lynch according to Google
Definition of lynch according to Merriam-Webster
Definition of lynch according to Cambridge English Dictionary
Definition of lynch according to Dictionary.com

Hence, I am utterly confused by how this word is even supposed to offend anyone.

Because the problem with the word isn't its definition but its intense and pervasive historical sociopolitical context that isn't captured by a dictionary?

[AniX]

Right, because died has never been a term in any country that was used specifically to refer to a type of systematic murder of minority populations. It never lost its generality. In the United States, lynching has.

[AniX]

you guys do know that lynchings happened long before the trans-Atlantic slave trade. I mean, yes, the word lynch does carry so many racist undertones b/c of how the KKK used lynches for black ppl but I just wanted to point out that it is has been a punishment for ONLY blacks is absolutely false.

Nobody has suggested that ONLY black people have ever been lynched. They are saying that the term lynching has been so irreversibly linked to the systematic murder of black people in the United States that it has overtaken in priority any mundane usage of the term.

There are mundane uses of the Swastika and they extend back far further than the Nazi regime, but you'll have a tough argument in suggesting we should allow swastika avatar even if they aren't the Nazi kind.

Heard of the Red Swastika Society? There is one where I live.

So do you believe that if someone wished to put their logo up as their avatar, that should be permitted?

[AniX]

The amount of people actually, legitimately bent out of shape and to some degree UPSET AND ANGRY about having to use a different word in a forum game because a different word is hurtful to some people is...pathetic to say the absolute least. You'd think half these people were the ones who wrote the standard definition of lynch in the dictionary, the way they are taking something extremely easy, simple, and inconsequential for them to follow so personally.

Definition of lynch according to Google
Definition of lynch according to Merriam-Webster
Definition of lynch according to Cambridge English Dictionary
Definition of lynch according to Dictionary.com

Hence, I am utterly confused by how this word is even supposed to offend anyone.

Because lots of black people died by racists white people.

Also I'm utterly confused as to why you care? Either the word is racist or it isn't, why does it matter to you if it stays or go?

It actually doesn't. I just wanted to understand how a word that doesn't refer to a group of people was racist.

Because it refers, in the United States, specifically to a type of systematic murder of people of a certain race. A dictionary doesn't intend to capture sociopolitical circumstances so it doesn't include that context, but that doesn't mean the context isn't there.

There are plenty of things that don't specifically refer to a group of people but nevertheless carries racial animus with it because of how it was used over years and years.

[AniX]

I wonder if mob mentality will attack post 697 like they've been attacking me

Probably not

Likely not, his remarks seem to be sarcastic and actually intend to be a judgment against his own words, whereas unless I misread you are genuine in what you are claiming. Or am I wrong?

[AniX]

But even supposing the word's origin wasn't racially based, the word's usage in the United States is INCREDIBLY and UNDENIABLY racially based.

[AniX]

I think a lot of people are kinda missing my point but oh well

I don't know what value you thought "Actually, setting aside the actual point of this thread, let's debate the word origins of lynch" brought to the thread.

[AniX]

Lycan's post about the origins of the word were supplemental to the point of the thread, not controlling on it. Bringing it up is just "Well, actually"ing in the middle of a serious discussion.

[AniX]

Up to 3 people I am now insinuating as racist

Well they shouldn’t be fuckin racist.
We are all the fuckin same thing.
And no one should be fuckin offended by stuff that isn’t actually racist.
Just because you can find something that can make the “term” appear to be racist doesn’t mean it is.

He's talking about you, bud.

[AniX]

Just because you can find something that can make the “term” appear to be racist doesn’t mean it is.

Are those quotes meant to imply that lynch isn't actually a term.

The term lynch fuckin means executing someone.
That’s fuckin it.
Like I’m the Cowboy times the sheriff would tie a knot in the rope and hang bad guys for their wrong doings.
Just because other events happened using that is irrelevant.
Anyone can be hanged. It’s not limited to any specific individual.

Why is the other events that have come to replace the original definition with a more specific race-based definition in the United States irrelevant?

[AniX]

Words evolve. That we now call the thing that moves a cursor on the computer a mouse is highly relevant, despite the original definition being a small rodent. In this case, it evolves to a very specific, very racial definition that came so pervasive in the United States it hasn't simply existed alongside the generic definition but all but replaced it.

[AniX]

Just because you can find something that can make the “term” appear to be racist doesn’t mean it is.

Are those quotes meant to imply that lynch isn't actually a term.

The term lynch fuckin means executing someone.
That’s fuckin it.
Like I’m the Cowboy times the sheriff would tie a knot in the rope and hang bad guys for their wrong doings.
Just because other events happened using that is irrelevant.
Anyone can be hanged. It’s not limited to any specific individual.

Why is the other events that have come to replace the original definition with a more specific race-based definition in the United States irrelevant?

Because it can happen to

ANYONE

and that’s my point!
As such, you might as well ban everything.

But it HASN'T.

[AniX]

That anyone could be a victim of lynching doesn't change the fact only one group systemically has.

[AniX]

Enter was extremely mad, that's for sure.

[AniX]

So it is fine to roleplay as mafia but it is not fine to roleplay public executions? We are talking here about organized crime, which is associated with sex slavery, distribution of drugs and illegal guns or assassinations. At this point i could replace lynch with slaughter and people would find it more appropriate...

The issue is not the roleplay, but the real life context of lynching.

[AniX]

Also, the mafia is by and large almost always placed in the context of a general purpose villain who has no special animus against or significance to any minority

Lynching on the other hand does

We'd be having a very different conversation if this was Klanscum.net and had a whire hood in its logo because the Klan, like lynching, has a specific racial context

[AniX]

Yeah, I really suggest people do their reactions to this in waves. The first step is removing lynched from the lexicon. The second step is figuring out what the new standard will be. Mixing those two steps into one step is going to muddy the waters and make people seem like they are disagreeing or downplaying the first step when all they want to do is participate in the second step.

[AniX]

Yeah, I really suggest people do their reactions to this in waves. The first step is removing lynched from the lexicon. The second step is figuring out what the new standard will be. Mixing those two steps into one step is going to muddy the waters and make people seem like they are disagreeing or downplaying the first step when all they want to do is participate in the second step.

Why not start the second step now?

As I said, because it is going to mix "I don't like this because I think lynched is fine" and "I don't like this because I think we need a better new standard word than eliminate" into a second "I don't like this" camp and those are incredibly different positions with incredibly different motivations and incredibly different discussions.

Now, if the mods wanted to make a separate post for discussing the new standard, that would be fine, but as it is people jumping to step 2 while step 1 is still being discussed does nobody any favors.

[AniX]

Do you think, perhaps, being Canadian you are not in a place to determine whether the sociopolitical context of lynch is such that trying to remove it is "overreacting"?

[AniX]

Do you think, perhaps, being Canadian you are not in a place to determine whether the sociopolitical context of lynch is such that trying to remove it is "overreacting"?

Oh they also contribute.
Keep in mind Canada welcomes anyone really.
As such Canada cares.

Ok, so we agree then that you are NOT in a place to make determinations about whether lynch being banned for an American sociopolitical context is overreacting.

[AniX]

Do you think, perhaps, being Canadian you are not in a place to determine whether the sociopolitical context of lynch is such that trying to remove it is "overreacting"?

Oh they also contribute.
Keep in mind Canada welcomes anyone really.
As such Canada cares.

Ok, so we agree then that you are NOT in a place to make determinations about whether lynch being banned for an American sociopolitical context is overreacting.

I actually don’t care.
I’m just concerned if all this is gonna get worse in the future.
People should leave it as it is at the end of 2020 and not go further and dwell on the past even more.

Lynching isn't in the past in America though. You can't "dwell on the past" about something if it is currently happening and will happen in the future.

Also, for someone doesn't care, you sure wrote quite a bit about the topic.

[AniX]

Despite me not caring about the “lynch” term.
I thought I’d share this in case other stuff is brought up.
Now Yes certain events in history were bad and very disgusting.
But it has nothing to do with a term as a whole.
Just because a term can refer to something that may appear to be racist doesn’t mean it is.

Ever heard the saying “Life is what you make it”.
That applies here.
Yes the word is known for being bad in the past but that just means someone can take initiative and change the word from being bad and degrading to something good and pure. (Or at least not as bad as people make it look like it is)
People can change so why can’t terms or things change?
Spoiler Alert - Anything and Anyone can Change.

Again, you have been shown multiple times that is it currently known for being bad in the present as well.

[AniX]

I do want to note that it is extremely amusing to me how many people who are really bent out of shape about this are also people with join dates within the past, like, 2 years.