Updated Mod Eligibility Rules
- Faraday
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Faraday ...should I be here?
- Faraday
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Wow, that's more than I expected. It probably makes the m. normal queue 50% longer again though, I'd say. That's sort of...not good. Basically means it'll only be first time mods wanting to run a Mini Normal (though maybe that's the case anyway?)are you thinking of me when you're with somebody else?- zoraster
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zoraster He/HimDisorganized Crime
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Checking now. Just a snap shot, but... chkflip, whose open game started sign ups on May 1st in the open queue signed up to mod on February 20th, for 70 days. Midnight's Sorrow's sign ups on the normal queue started May 2nd and he signed up on December 14th for roughly 138 days. That's a 68 day advantage to those in the open queue, or about 2.25 months.
Even though we all seem to agree that modding a regular mini normal on the whole provides better experience for designing and modding a future large or theme game than an open one, we actually PROVIDE INCENTIVE to mods to avoid that better experience..- mith
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mith Godfather
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One thing to consider for mod wait times is that the speed of the Mini Normal queue is somewhat throttled by the Mini limit for players - players who like Open games have no such limit. That's something that will hopefully be addressed if we ever get a handle on site wide game limits.
I'm not sure how much of a problem it is that the Open queue is faster, though... first time mods have had a free choice between the two queues for a long time, and the wait of the MN queue may just suggest that more mods prefer the control of designing their own setup.
(I wouldn't be opposed to a minimum player count for earning mod experience, in both queues; after all, there is nothing currently preventing someone in the MN queue from running a 5 player game. We do need to be careful of the balance between first time mods wanting to run a 9+(?) player setup so they can run a theme game next and players who want to get in a quick Vengeful game; we've already drifted a bit from the original intent of that queue, which was for the players to have ultimate say in what is run.)- shaft.ed
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shaft.ed dem.agogue
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zoraster wrote:Checking now. Just a snap shot, but... chkflip, whose open game started sign ups on May 1st in the open queue signed up to mod on February 20th, for 70 days. Midnight's Sorrow's sign ups on the normal queue started May 2nd and he signed up on December 14th for roughly 138 days. That's a 68 day advantage to those in the open queue, or about 2.25 months.
Even though we all seem to agree that modding a regular mini normal on the whole provides better experience for designing and modding a future large or theme game than an open one, we actually PROVIDE INCENTIVE to mods to avoid that better experience.
Has anyone done an objective analysis of who went through which queue and how they ended up? I really don't think there is that much one learns from making/running a game that can't be learned along the way (if it is done right). I really see the requirements as more of a commitment test. So I really see no problem with a mod wanting to get through the whole process faster- Vi
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Vi Professor Paragon
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I'm not thinking of the "Open Games go faster" argument so much as the consequence of "I now have to mod two games before I can mod a Theme".Zachrulez wrote:I'm actually not the one that wants to increase the modding requirements, I just figure it's a better way of addressing the issues that hoopla is claiming exist rather than just increasing the wait time to 6 months for both queues.
Aren't open games considered the quickest way to get your modding pips these days anyway? If that's the strength of the reaction against the idea I put above, they shouldn't even be counting as whole games anyway.
I would also again like to point out that most mods would rather design their own setups. Forcing people to wait threemoremonths from the time they join to do so is ridiculous.Everything you say and do matters. People will respond in ways you may never see. May those responses be what you intend.- zoraster
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zoraster He/HimDisorganized Crime
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shaft.ed wrote:zoraster wrote:Checking now. Just a snap shot, but... chkflip, whose open game started sign ups on May 1st in the open queue signed up to mod on February 20th, for 70 days. Midnight's Sorrow's sign ups on the normal queue started May 2nd and he signed up on December 14th for roughly 138 days. That's a 68 day advantage to those in the open queue, or about 2.25 months.
Even though we all seem to agree that modding a regular mini normal on the whole provides better experience for designing and modding a future large or theme game than an open one, we actually PROVIDE INCENTIVE to mods to avoid that better experience.
Has anyone done an objective analysis of who went through which queue and how they ended up? I really don't think there is that much one learns from making/running a game that can't be learned along the way (if it is done right). I really see the requirements as more of a commitment test. So I really see no problem with a mod wanting to get through the whole process faster
what do you mean? what would we be judging exactly?.- shaft.ed
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shaft.ed dem.agogue
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zoraster wrote:shaft.ed wrote:zoraster wrote:Checking now. Just a snap shot, but... chkflip, whose open game started sign ups on May 1st in the open queue signed up to mod on February 20th, for 70 days. Midnight's Sorrow's sign ups on the normal queue started May 2nd and he signed up on December 14th for roughly 138 days. That's a 68 day advantage to those in the open queue, or about 2.25 months.
Even though we all seem to agree that modding a regular mini normal on the whole provides better experience for designing and modding a future large or theme game than an open one, we actually PROVIDE INCENTIVE to mods to avoid that better experience.
Has anyone done an objective analysis of who went through which queue and how they ended up? I really don't think there is that much one learns from making/running a game that can't be learned along the way (if it is done right). I really see the requirements as more of a commitment test. So I really see no problem with a mod wanting to get through the whole process faster
what do you mean? what would we be judging exactly?
whether or not they flaked from their games/had rocks fall everyone die moments
Basically rate of abject failure due to either irresponsibility, mismanaging their game or running a broken game- Mr. Flay
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Mr. Flay Metatron
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Sample size. Anecdotally, it might be valuable, but thankfully we have few crash-and-burn mods. Complicating the data is modding hydras, backups/comods, etc...
I'm pretty sure Mini Normal has been almost exclusively first-timers for YEARS (probably since we made Mini Themes require a modded game). The long wait time, combined with the restrictions, have made it advantageous to increase your game size to 14 or slap a theme on it, if you're qualified to do so. Like mith says, it's an expression of Thok's Law, and maybe the way to deal with it is to get sitewide limits in place, now that Kison is our new Coding Overlord.
I really feel like Open Queue ought to count for half a game or something, with some of the setups being thrown through it by those looking for their 'pips'. On the gripping hand, you get people who are running 18-player games occasionally. It's an odd queue, just in general.Retired as of October 2014.- zoraster
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zoraster He/HimDisorganized Crime
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He/Him- Disorganized Crime
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shaft.ed wrote:zoraster wrote:shaft.ed wrote:zoraster wrote:Checking now. Just a snap shot, but... chkflip, whose open game started sign ups on May 1st in the open queue signed up to mod on February 20th, for 70 days. Midnight's Sorrow's sign ups on the normal queue started May 2nd and he signed up on December 14th for roughly 138 days. That's a 68 day advantage to those in the open queue, or about 2.25 months.
Even though we all seem to agree that modding a regular mini normal on the whole provides better experience for designing and modding a future large or theme game than an open one, we actually PROVIDE INCENTIVE to mods to avoid that better experience.
Has anyone done an objective analysis of who went through which queue and how they ended up? I really don't think there is that much one learns from making/running a game that can't be learned along the way (if it is done right). I really see the requirements as more of a commitment test. So I really see no problem with a mod wanting to get through the whole process faster
what do you mean? what would we be judging exactly?
whether or not they flaked from their games/had rocks fall everyone die moments
Basically rate of abject failure due to either irresponsibility, mismanaging their game or running a broken game
Okay, but that's not really why I want mods to have experience running a game. A mod flaking on a mini-normal game is just as hurtful as one flaking on a mini-theme game. I don't think flake rate is very informative in whether or not modding that first game helps..- shaft.ed
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shaft.ed dem.agogue
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- Nobody Special
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Nobody Special Survivor
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It's not so much the mechanics of modding a game as it is the consistency, presence and perseverance. I think that new (to this site) players who are over the three-week deadlines would likely vanish if their modding game dropped to low activity.- Thok
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Thok Disgrace to SKs everywhere
- Thok
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Mr. Flay wrote:Porochaz wrote:We aren't asking our mods to be good, but we probably should be.
I've never understood why people don't expect mods to be good. There's enough resources (reviewers, comods, backups, list mods, Mafia Discussion, etc) that nobody should EVER have an excuse to waste 13 players' summer.
To be fair, there are fairly notorious games that ran despite all of those safeguards in place. Chess Mafia, for example.I replaced into Chess Mafia for 6 months, and all I got was a win and this lousy sig.- Ythill
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Ythill Fabio
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As many of you know, I've recently introduced my wife to this site. She played a couple of newbies and graduated to the other queues. Now we are playing under a hydra and she's said that it's been better for teaching her the game than the newbies were. This sparked a conversation about learning to mod and how she would much prefer to learn by co-modding. Which inspired another hair-brained idea...
If we had a set of minimum qualifications for "teaching mods" then people who qualified would be able to recruit apprentice co-mods. Doing so would create an alternate route to gaining mod experience that would take some pressure off of the normal/open queues. Since forming the teacher-apprentice relationship would be voluntary, implementing this would provide a reward for prospective mods that have spent time building relationships with people on the site, and it would allow our best moderators to directly guide the development of site meta.
Just a thought.Record:Town 10W/15LScum 4W/1LOther 2W/2LNewbie 1L
"So yeah, it is a sign from the angels." ~CooLDoG- Tragedy
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Tragedy Jack of All Trades
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What if you're with a Hydra, that's modding?
A Hydra that has been recently signed up and joined the forums.
One person whose playing as the hydra is already good enough to moderate a game, but the other hydra is more of a newbie.
What happens?I blame you for this.
For I have been awaiting for another heart pounding segment ofDokidoki Precure!
[10/15/2013 - 00:13] -Tragedy~I wish for Kami-nii-sama to have better naming skills.- shaft.ed
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shaft.ed dem.agogue
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- animorpherv1
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animorpherv1 Honey Trap
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I modded a game with 2 newbie modders. Plum did it with Andrius as well.
This conversation of allowing newbie mod hydras should all be moved to my MD topic."Animorpherv1's posts are so powerful that prolonged exposure may cause vertigo, nausea, acute tinnitus, and in rare cases, death." - vonflare
"Ani is right 100% of the time" - Alisae- Ythill
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Ythill Fabio
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- ReaperCharlie
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ReaperCharlie Jack of All Trades
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Ythill wrote:As many of you know, I've recently introduced my wife to this site. She played a couple of newbies and graduated to the other queues. Now we are playing under a hydra and she's said that it's been better for teaching her the game than the newbies were. This sparked a conversation about learning to mod and how she would much prefer to learn by co-modding. Which inspired another hair-brained idea...
If we had a set of minimum qualifications for "teaching mods" then people who qualified would be able to recruit apprentice co-mods. Doing so would create an alternate route to gaining mod experience that would take some pressure off of the normal/open queues. Since forming the teacher-apprentice relationship would be voluntary, implementing this would provide a reward for prospective mods that have spent time building relationships with people on the site, and it would allow our best moderators to directly guide the development of site meta.
Just a thought.
This is a great idea. I actually tried it before: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p2740708
ReaperCharlie (in the Large Theme queue) wrote:I would also like to extend an invitation to a relative newcomer to modding, who wants to help mod or co-mod an epic game this summer.
Responsibilities and requirements will include:
- Mass character paring
- Setup design and review
- Extensive flavor-writing
- A metric-crapton of patience
- Enthusiasm, and
- Lots of dedication
No résumé is necessary.
In fact, none (or nearly none) is preferred. I am doing this because I want to help out an up-and-comer, not pad the resume of a stalwart.
If this sounds like something that's interesting to you, please drop me a PM. If it might fit somebody you know, please drop them a PM linking to this post.Kinetic wrote:The apprentice won't get mod credit for this venture, but Kinetic approves of this idea.
It didn't work out so well, both of the aspiring mods flaked in the setup design stage. One is now currently running a game I'm in (apparently he flaked because a tornado took out his internet for weeks). The other is living out the rest of his useless mafiascum existence as before. As for the game, it was Harry Potter, and I brought Andrius on board instead of both of them. The game is still being worked on.
I wanted to give them a chance at greatness (for surely, this game will be epic). But it was not to be.
(to be honest, It'd probably worka lotbetter with less complicated games, though)
Still, it's a great idea and I'm glad more people are trying it!Show"Take me to Pleasure Town!" "Look, the most Glorious Rainbow Ever!" "Do me on it!" -
Spoiler:- Vi
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Vi Professor Paragon
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ReaperCharlie wrote:It didn't work out so well, both of the aspiring mods flaked in the setup design stage. One is now currently running a game I'm in (apparently he flaked because a tornado took out his internet for weeks). The other is living out the rest of his useless mafiascum existence as before. As for the game, it was Harry Potter, and I brought Andrius on board instead of both of them. The game is still being worked on.
I wanted to give them a chance at greatness (for surely, this game will be epic). But it was not to be. )Everything you say and do matters. People will respond in ways you may never see. May those responses be what you intend.- Andrius
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I'm still kinda' pissed that RC dragged me into there, since I was originally going to play the game, not mod it.
But yeah. The Master Hand was fun and taught me to always check QT links to avoid Red-Goon getting the Blue-Mafia QT.
Plum/Andy was definitely the better experience though. (I mean, its Plum. Come on. )
I'd be willing to be part of the teaching hydra. With work I think it could go far."This is the true face of a man who plays paladin."- animorpherv1
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animorpherv1 Honey Trap
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Andrius wrote:But yeah. The Master Hand was fun and taught me to always check QT links to avoid Red-Goon getting the Blue-Mafia QT.
This. SO MUCH THIS."Animorpherv1's posts are so powerful that prolonged exposure may cause vertigo, nausea, acute tinnitus, and in rare cases, death." - vonflare
"Ani is right 100% of the time" - Alisae- ReaperCharlie
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ReaperCharlie Jack of All Trades
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Andrius wrote:I'm still kinda' pissed that RC dragged me into there, since I was originally going to play the game, not mod it.
Yeah but you owe me. We have been needing to mod a game together for the past... what... year? It's TIME FOR BAKEAGE.
Andrius wrote:But yeah. The Master Hand was fun and taught me to always check QT links to avoid Red-Goon getting the Blue-Mafia QT.
Oh gosh. Seriously?
Always check all links. Alllllll links.
Andrius wrote:Plum/Andy was definitely the better experience though. (I mean, its Plum. Come on. )
Buddying noted.Show"Take me to Pleasure Town!" "Look, the most Glorious Rainbow Ever!" "Do me on it!" -
Spoiler:- Andrius
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Andrius The Baker
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- ReaperCharlie
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ReaperCharlie Jack of All Trades
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You owe me modding a game w/me.Show"Take me to Pleasure Town!" "Look, the most Glorious Rainbow Ever!" "Do me on it!" -
Spoiler:- MafiaSSK
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MafiaSSK Jack of All Trades
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Thok wrote:Mr. Flay wrote:Porochaz wrote:We aren't asking our mods to be good, but we probably should be.
I've never understood why people don't expect mods to be good. There's enough resources (reviewers, comods, backups, list mods, Mafia Discussion, etc) that nobody should EVER have an excuse to waste 13 players' summer.
To be fair, there are fairly notorious games that ran despite all of those safeguards in place. Chess Mafia, for example.
Here's my random visit post.
Chess Mafia should have never run for as long as it did. I was a stubborn ass who loved power so much that I didn't let it die when it should have. The deadlines weren't deadlines and rules weren't enforced. The fact is that the reviewers didn't pay any attention to it, MeMe let a mod who failed at modding run as the emergency backup mod, and there was no precedence for a game like Chess Mafia. No game had ever delved into the territory of a single mafia game being solely based around a mafia game and a real life game. The safeguards weren't safeguards because there was nothing to stop them from not working or in fact, being ignored.
However, the fact of the matter is, that too many safeguards are being implemented with not enough responsibility with this new system of mod eligibility. Another Chess Mafia is still possible, people could still easily manuever around the system even with the proposed Open Game as a half-game requirement. Two games of vengeful could only take a month. This is way less than even the three months that were in MeMe's set of eligibility requirements. MafiaScum will get way more flaky mods.
As for the teaching mods approach; that has been tried many times. Newbie mods will fail forcing older mods to step in and take their place. However, this can lead to even more disastrous of failures then previously expected. For instance, if the newbie mod fails at even creating the setup, because they make an unbalanced setup and flake to cover it up all because the older moderator just didn't care about the newbie moderator's game because it is a newbie moderator game, then not only will the game end up being broken but another game will be added to the older moderator's, presumably, list of games they're already moderating. Not only does this mean there's a chance of flaking on both the moderator's part due to stress, it may lead to flaking on the player's part because the game is no fun anymore. The original mod had to flake because they couldn't even stand to finish the game, so why should the players? This is only one example of what could go wrong in a teacher moderating type system. The only way, this could maybe go 100% right would be if there were a high and mighty council of teacher moderators who were well trusted and never ever have flaked a game which creates problems of its own.
Now, I have no idea if I'll bother to actually respond to any responses that come from this. So this was just my random two cents.Call me "SSK, or "ssk". Mafia is my father. - MafiaSSK
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