Updated Mod Eligibility Rules

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Post Post #100 (ISO) » Thu May 05, 2011 4:12 am

Post by Faraday »

Wow, that's more than I expected. It probably makes the m. normal queue 50% longer again though, I'd say. That's sort of...not good. Basically means it'll only be first time mods wanting to run a Mini Normal (though maybe that's the case anyway?)
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Post Post #101 (ISO) » Thu May 05, 2011 4:21 am

Post by zoraster »

Checking now. Just a snap shot, but... chkflip, whose open game started sign ups on May 1st in the open queue signed up to mod on February 20th, for 70 days. Midnight's Sorrow's sign ups on the normal queue started May 2nd and he signed up on December 14th for roughly 138 days. That's a 68 day advantage to those in the open queue, or about 2.25 months.

Even though we all seem to agree that modding a regular mini normal on the whole provides better experience for designing and modding a future large or theme game than an open one, we actually PROVIDE INCENTIVE to mods to avoid that better experience.
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Post Post #102 (ISO) » Thu May 05, 2011 5:00 am

Post by mith »

One thing to consider for mod wait times is that the speed of the Mini Normal queue is somewhat throttled by the Mini limit for players - players who like Open games have no such limit. That's something that will hopefully be addressed if we ever get a handle on site wide game limits.

I'm not sure how much of a problem it is that the Open queue is faster, though... first time mods have had a free choice between the two queues for a long time, and the wait of the MN queue may just suggest that more mods prefer the control of designing their own setup.

(I wouldn't be opposed to a minimum player count for earning mod experience, in both queues; after all, there is nothing currently preventing someone in the MN queue from running a 5 player game. We do need to be careful of the balance between first time mods wanting to run a 9+(?) player setup so they can run a theme game next and players who want to get in a quick Vengeful game; we've already drifted a bit from the original intent of that queue, which was for the players to have ultimate say in what is run.)
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Post Post #103 (ISO) » Thu May 05, 2011 5:24 am

Post by shaft.ed »

zoraster wrote:Checking now. Just a snap shot, but... chkflip, whose open game started sign ups on May 1st in the open queue signed up to mod on February 20th, for 70 days. Midnight's Sorrow's sign ups on the normal queue started May 2nd and he signed up on December 14th for roughly 138 days. That's a 68 day advantage to those in the open queue, or about 2.25 months.

Even though we all seem to agree that modding a regular mini normal on the whole provides better experience for designing and modding a future large or theme game than an open one, we actually PROVIDE INCENTIVE to mods to avoid that better experience.

Has anyone done an objective analysis of who went through which queue and how they ended up? I really don't think there is that much one learns from making/running a game that can't be learned along the way (if it is done right). I really see the requirements as more of a commitment test. So I really see no problem with a mod wanting to get through the whole process faster
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Post Post #104 (ISO) » Thu May 05, 2011 6:08 am

Post by Vi »

Zachrulez wrote:I'm actually not the one that wants to increase the modding requirements, I just figure it's a better way of addressing the issues that hoopla is claiming exist rather than just increasing the wait time to 6 months for both queues.

Aren't open games considered the quickest way to get your modding pips these days anyway? If that's the strength of the reaction against the idea I put above, they shouldn't even be counting as whole games anyway.
I'm not thinking of the "Open Games go faster" argument so much as the consequence of "I now have to mod two games before I can mod a Theme".

I would also again like to point out that most mods would rather design their own setups. Forcing people to wait three
more
months from the time they join to do so is ridiculous.
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Post Post #105 (ISO) » Thu May 05, 2011 6:25 am

Post by zoraster »

shaft.ed wrote:
zoraster wrote:Checking now. Just a snap shot, but... chkflip, whose open game started sign ups on May 1st in the open queue signed up to mod on February 20th, for 70 days. Midnight's Sorrow's sign ups on the normal queue started May 2nd and he signed up on December 14th for roughly 138 days. That's a 68 day advantage to those in the open queue, or about 2.25 months.

Even though we all seem to agree that modding a regular mini normal on the whole provides better experience for designing and modding a future large or theme game than an open one, we actually PROVIDE INCENTIVE to mods to avoid that better experience.

Has anyone done an objective analysis of who went through which queue and how they ended up? I really don't think there is that much one learns from making/running a game that can't be learned along the way (if it is done right). I really see the requirements as more of a commitment test. So I really see no problem with a mod wanting to get through the whole process faster


what do you mean? what would we be judging exactly?
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Post Post #106 (ISO) » Thu May 05, 2011 6:41 am

Post by shaft.ed »

zoraster wrote:
shaft.ed wrote:
zoraster wrote:Checking now. Just a snap shot, but... chkflip, whose open game started sign ups on May 1st in the open queue signed up to mod on February 20th, for 70 days. Midnight's Sorrow's sign ups on the normal queue started May 2nd and he signed up on December 14th for roughly 138 days. That's a 68 day advantage to those in the open queue, or about 2.25 months.

Even though we all seem to agree that modding a regular mini normal on the whole provides better experience for designing and modding a future large or theme game than an open one, we actually PROVIDE INCENTIVE to mods to avoid that better experience.

Has anyone done an objective analysis of who went through which queue and how they ended up? I really don't think there is that much one learns from making/running a game that can't be learned along the way (if it is done right). I really see the requirements as more of a commitment test. So I really see no problem with a mod wanting to get through the whole process faster


what do you mean? what would we be judging exactly?

whether or not they flaked from their games/had rocks fall everyone die moments
Basically rate of abject failure due to either irresponsibility, mismanaging their game or running a broken game
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Post Post #107 (ISO) » Thu May 05, 2011 7:31 am

Post by Mr. Flay »

Sample size. Anecdotally, it might be valuable, but thankfully we have few crash-and-burn mods. Complicating the data is modding hydras, backups/comods, etc...

I'm pretty sure Mini Normal has been almost exclusively first-timers for YEARS (probably since we made Mini Themes require a modded game). The long wait time, combined with the restrictions, have made it advantageous to increase your game size to 14 or slap a theme on it, if you're qualified to do so. Like mith says, it's an expression of Thok's Law, and maybe the way to deal with it is to get sitewide limits in place, now that Kison is our new Coding Overlord.

I really feel like Open Queue ought to count for half a game or something, with some of the setups being thrown through it by those looking for their 'pips'. On the gripping hand, you get people who are running 18-player games occasionally. It's an odd queue, just in general.
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Post Post #108 (ISO) » Thu May 05, 2011 7:44 am

Post by zoraster »

shaft.ed wrote:
zoraster wrote:
shaft.ed wrote:
zoraster wrote:Checking now. Just a snap shot, but... chkflip, whose open game started sign ups on May 1st in the open queue signed up to mod on February 20th, for 70 days. Midnight's Sorrow's sign ups on the normal queue started May 2nd and he signed up on December 14th for roughly 138 days. That's a 68 day advantage to those in the open queue, or about 2.25 months.

Even though we all seem to agree that modding a regular mini normal on the whole provides better experience for designing and modding a future large or theme game than an open one, we actually PROVIDE INCENTIVE to mods to avoid that better experience.

Has anyone done an objective analysis of who went through which queue and how they ended up? I really don't think there is that much one learns from making/running a game that can't be learned along the way (if it is done right). I really see the requirements as more of a commitment test. So I really see no problem with a mod wanting to get through the whole process faster


what do you mean? what would we be judging exactly?

whether or not they flaked from their games/had rocks fall everyone die moments
Basically rate of abject failure due to either irresponsibility, mismanaging their game or running a broken game


Okay, but that's not really why I want mods to have experience running a game. A mod flaking on a mini-normal game is just as hurtful as one flaking on a mini-theme game. I don't think flake rate is very informative in whether or not modding that first game helps.
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Post Post #109 (ISO) » Thu May 05, 2011 9:22 am

Post by shaft.ed »

I guess I have a different philosophy as to what the modding requirements are for. I think anyone with half a brain and a set up review can successfully mod a game, there isn't that much to learn that can't be figured out with some help during the setup design
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Post Post #110 (ISO) » Thu May 05, 2011 10:30 am

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It's not so much the mechanics of modding a game as it is the consistency, presence and perseverance. I think that new (to this site) players who are :eek: over the three-week deadlines would likely vanish if their modding game dropped to low activity.
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Post Post #111 (ISO) » Thu May 05, 2011 10:48 am

Post by Thok »

Mr. Flay wrote:
Porochaz wrote:We aren't asking our mods to be good, but we probably should be.

I've never understood why people don't expect mods to be good. There's enough resources (reviewers, comods, backups, list mods, Mafia Discussion, etc) that nobody should EVER have an excuse to waste 13 players' summer.


To be fair, there are fairly notorious games that ran despite all of those safeguards in place. Chess Mafia, for example.
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Post Post #112 (ISO) » Thu May 05, 2011 10:50 am

Post by Ythill »

As many of you know, I've recently introduced my wife to this site. She played a couple of newbies and graduated to the other queues. Now we are playing under a hydra and she's said that it's been better for teaching her the game than the newbies were. This sparked a conversation about learning to mod and how she would much prefer to learn by co-modding. Which inspired another hair-brained idea...

If we had a set of minimum qualifications for "teaching mods" then people who qualified would be able to recruit apprentice co-mods. Doing so would create an alternate route to gaining mod experience that would take some pressure off of the normal/open queues. Since forming the teacher-apprentice relationship would be voluntary, implementing this would provide a reward for prospective mods that have spent time building relationships with people on the site, and it would allow our best moderators to directly guide the development of site meta.

Just a thought.
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Post Post #113 (ISO) » Thu May 05, 2011 11:36 am

Post by Tragedy »

What if you're with a Hydra, that's modding?
A Hydra that has been recently signed up and joined the forums.
One person whose playing as the hydra is already good enough to moderate a game, but the other hydra is more of a newbie.
What happens?
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Post Post #114 (ISO) » Thu May 05, 2011 11:43 am

Post by shaft.ed »

Didn't Kinetic try out such an experiment Ythill?
I didnt pay attention to how it turned out
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Post Post #115 (ISO) » Thu May 05, 2011 12:22 pm

Post by animorpherv1 »

I modded a game with 2 newbie modders. Plum did it with Andrius as well.

This conversation of allowing newbie mod hydras should all be moved to my MD topic.
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Post Post #116 (ISO) » Thu May 05, 2011 1:52 pm

Post by Ythill »

I don't know what's been tried. Just spouting ideas, as usual.
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Post Post #117 (ISO) » Fri May 06, 2011 6:07 am

Post by ReaperCharlie »

Ythill wrote:As many of you know, I've recently introduced my wife to this site. She played a couple of newbies and graduated to the other queues. Now we are playing under a hydra and she's said that it's been better for teaching her the game than the newbies were. This sparked a conversation about learning to mod and how she would much prefer to learn by co-modding. Which inspired another hair-brained idea...

If we had a set of minimum qualifications for "teaching mods" then people who qualified would be able to recruit apprentice co-mods. Doing so would create an alternate route to gaining mod experience that would take some pressure off of the normal/open queues. Since forming the teacher-apprentice relationship would be voluntary, implementing this would provide a reward for prospective mods that have spent time building relationships with people on the site, and it would allow our best moderators to directly guide the development of site meta.

Just a thought.

This is a great idea. I actually tried it before: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p2740708

ReaperCharlie (in the Large Theme queue) wrote:I would also like to extend an invitation to a relative newcomer to modding, who wants to help mod or co-mod an epic game this summer.

Responsibilities and requirements will include:
- Mass character paring
- Setup design and review
- Extensive flavor-writing
- A metric-crapton of patience
- Enthusiasm, and
- Lots of dedication

No résumé is necessary.

In fact, none (or nearly none) is preferred. I am doing this because I want to help out an up-and-comer, not pad the resume of a stalwart.

If this sounds like something that's interesting to you, please drop me a PM. If it might fit somebody you know, please drop them a PM linking to this post.
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The apprentice won't get mod credit for this venture, but Kinetic approves of this idea.

It didn't work out so well, both of the aspiring mods flaked in the setup design stage. One is now currently running a game I'm in (apparently he flaked because a tornado took out his internet for weeks). The other is living out the rest of his useless mafiascum existence as before. As for the game, it was Harry Potter, and I brought Andrius on board instead of both of them. The game is still being worked on.


I wanted to give them a chance at greatness (for surely, this game will be epic). But it was not to be. :(
(to be honest, It'd probably work
a lot
better with less complicated games, though)


Still, it's a great idea and I'm glad more people are trying it! :)
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Post Post #118 (ISO) » Fri May 06, 2011 10:57 am

Post by Vi »

ReaperCharlie wrote:It didn't work out so well, both of the aspiring mods flaked in the setup design stage. One is now currently running a game I'm in (apparently he flaked because a tornado took out his internet for weeks). The other is living out the rest of his useless mafiascum existence as before. As for the game, it was Harry Potter, and I brought Andrius on board instead of both of them. The game is still being worked on.


I wanted to give them a chance at greatness (for surely, this game will be epic). But it was not to be. :()
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Post Post #119 (ISO) » Fri May 06, 2011 3:37 pm

Post by Andrius »

I'm still kinda' pissed that RC dragged me into there, since I was originally going to play the game, not mod it.

But yeah. The Master Hand was fun and taught me to always check QT links to avoid Red-Goon getting the Blue-Mafia QT. :P

Plum/Andy was definitely the better experience though. (I mean, its Plum. Come on. ;) )

I'd be willing to be part of the teaching hydra. With work I think it could go far.
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Post Post #120 (ISO) » Fri May 06, 2011 3:41 pm

Post by animorpherv1 »

Andrius wrote:But yeah. The Master Hand was fun and taught me to always check QT links to avoid Red-Goon getting the Blue-Mafia QT. :P



This. SO MUCH THIS.
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Post Post #121 (ISO) » Fri May 06, 2011 4:06 pm

Post by ReaperCharlie »

Andrius wrote:I'm still kinda' pissed that RC dragged me into there, since I was originally going to play the game, not mod it.

Yeah but you owe me. We have been needing to mod a game together for the past... what... year? It's TIME FOR BAKEAGE.

Andrius wrote:But yeah. The Master Hand was fun and taught me to always check QT links to avoid Red-Goon getting the Blue-Mafia QT. :P

Oh gosh. Seriously? :?

Always check all links. Alllllll links.

Andrius wrote:Plum/Andy was definitely the better experience though. (I mean, its Plum. Come on. ;) )

Buddying noted. ;)
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Post Post #122 (ISO) » Fri May 06, 2011 4:45 pm

Post by Andrius »

I owe you? What exactly do I owe YOU? :?

Yeah. :P
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Post Post #123 (ISO) » Sat May 07, 2011 11:56 am

Post by ReaperCharlie »

You owe me modding a game w/me. :)
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Post Post #124 (ISO) » Sat May 07, 2011 4:43 pm

Post by MafiaSSK »

Thok wrote:
Mr. Flay wrote:
Porochaz wrote:We aren't asking our mods to be good, but we probably should be.

I've never understood why people don't expect mods to be good. There's enough resources (reviewers, comods, backups, list mods, Mafia Discussion, etc) that nobody should EVER have an excuse to waste 13 players' summer.


To be fair, there are fairly notorious games that ran despite all of those safeguards in place. Chess Mafia, for example.

Here's my random visit post.
Chess Mafia should have never run for as long as it did. I was a stubborn ass who loved power so much that I didn't let it die when it should have. The deadlines weren't deadlines and rules weren't enforced. The fact is that the reviewers didn't pay any attention to it, MeMe let a mod who failed at modding run as the emergency backup mod, and there was no precedence for a game like Chess Mafia. No game had ever delved into the territory of a single mafia game being solely based around a mafia game and a real life game. The safeguards weren't safeguards because there was nothing to stop them from not working or in fact, being ignored.
However, the fact of the matter is, that too many safeguards are being implemented with not enough responsibility with this new system of mod eligibility. Another Chess Mafia is still possible, people could still easily manuever around the system even with the proposed Open Game as a half-game requirement. Two games of vengeful could only take a month. This is way less than even the three months that were in MeMe's set of eligibility requirements. MafiaScum will get way more flaky mods.
As for the teaching mods approach; that has been tried many times. Newbie mods will fail forcing older mods to step in and take their place. However, this can lead to even more disastrous of failures then previously expected. For instance, if the newbie mod fails at even creating the setup, because they make an unbalanced setup and flake to cover it up all because the older moderator just didn't care about the newbie moderator's game because it is a newbie moderator game, then not only will the game end up being broken but another game will be added to the older moderator's, presumably, list of games they're already moderating. Not only does this mean there's a chance of flaking on both the moderator's part due to stress, it may lead to flaking on the player's part because the game is no fun anymore. The original mod had to flake because they couldn't even stand to finish the game, so why should the players? This is only one example of what could go wrong in a teacher moderating type system. The only way, this could maybe go 100% right would be if there were a high and mighty council of teacher moderators who were well trusted and never ever have flaked a game which creates problems of its own.

Now, I have no idea if I'll bother to actually respond to any responses that come from this. So this was just my random two cents.
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