Rule Addition Regarding Hiding Identity from Staff

This forum is for Administrators to post news concerning the site and forums.
User avatar
Zachrulez
Zachrulez
Jack of All Trades
User avatar
User avatar
Zachrulez
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 8550
Joined: December 5, 2008
Location: Minnesota

Post Post #75 (ISO) » Tue Nov 29, 2016 1:53 pm

Post by Zachrulez »

Never gets old.
User avatar
MagnaofIllusion
MagnaofIllusion
has been killed Night 1
User avatar
User avatar
MagnaofIllusion
has been killed Night 1
has been killed Night 1
Posts: 13964
Joined: February 9, 2010
Location: Assimilating the world ...
Contact:

Post Post #76 (ISO) » Tue Nov 29, 2016 2:04 pm

Post by MagnaofIllusion »

Generally Alts are over-used on MS. And I find they don't usually end up serving the purpose they are intended for as Alt Slips are such a common occurrence these days. One well known user who will remain nameless has blow at least 3 secret alts since my return this year in games I've played.
"I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"

Pretty much Geriatric game restricted at this point ... unless there are players I REALLY want to play with.
User avatar
vonflare
vonflare
doot
User avatar
User avatar
vonflare
doot
doot
Posts: 3093
Joined: January 1, 2014
Location: Blue Gatorade Factory

Post Post #77 (ISO) » Tue Nov 29, 2016 2:14 pm

Post by vonflare »

alts are used in other ways than masking your meta tho. Like, a themed alt for a game, a mod alt, hydras, etc.

Alts should definitely not be banned entirely, as at least 2 people seem to think, and I personally don't have a problem with alts at all.

However, if people use an alt to sign up as a newbie, why wouldn't they just sign up as an SE or IC?
THIS POST IS PROVIDED "AS IS", WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND NONINFRINGEMENT.
User avatar
AniX
AniX
None
UCalled
User avatar
User avatar
AniX
None
UCalled
UCalled
Posts: 3138
Joined: September 14, 2003
Pronoun: None
Contact:

Post Post #78 (ISO) » Tue Nov 29, 2016 2:43 pm

Post by AniX »

I don't think anyone is arguing banning alts. I see some people arguing they are overused or not viable for their stated purposes but that's hardly the same thing. I think they are just saying that IF there is unequal meta interactions between mods and alts it pales in comparison to the unequal meta interactions of alts to others players.
Official Gimmick List:
INVENTOR OF UPICK!
LORD OF THE 11TH HOUR!
ASEXUAL!
KING SCAR APOLOGIST!
DREAMER OF THE NE0N DREAM (SUPP 2021 LAST PLACE WINNER)!


I have donned the
RED CROWN
User avatar
Porochaz
Porochaz
Oh, Prozac
User avatar
User avatar
Porochaz
Oh, Prozac
Oh, Prozac
Posts: 9317
Joined: September 6, 2007

Post Post #79 (ISO) » Tue Nov 29, 2016 2:59 pm

Post by Porochaz »

In post 3, Nexus wrote:#banallalts
Also, more importantly

#banallhydras
Mostly retired. Unless you ask or it's something interesting.
User avatar
Porochaz
Porochaz
Oh, Prozac
User avatar
User avatar
Porochaz
Oh, Prozac
Oh, Prozac
Posts: 9317
Joined: September 6, 2007

Post Post #80 (ISO) » Tue Nov 29, 2016 3:00 pm

Post by Porochaz »

Image
Mostly retired. Unless you ask or it's something interesting.
User avatar
Vi
Vi
Professor Paragon
User avatar
User avatar
Vi
Professor Paragon
Professor Paragon
Posts: 11768
Joined: June 29, 2008
Location: GMT-5

Post Post #81 (ISO) » Tue Nov 29, 2016 10:23 pm

Post by Vi »

In post 70, Clumsy wrote:What I mean is, let's say Bob has his tell. Playing as "Bob" would be our set neutral or control.

Bob=0

If Bob plays as Albert, it gives him an advantage in the game because people won't know his tell.

Bob + Albert = 2

A mod who knows the alt will know that it's Bob.

Mod = (the advantage of)Albert

Bob + Albert - Mod = 0

So, since both Albert and Mod are greater than 0, each confers an advantage. If you think Albert doesn't give an advantage (or as much of one), Mod doesn't confer much advantage, because it is, in essence, a nullifier.
Bob's initial score is negative. Using the alt puts him back to zero. That's why people use alts.

Well, other than for trolling.

Somewhat beside the point though.
Everything you say and do matters. People will respond in ways you may never see. May those responses be what you intend.
User avatar
Clumsy
Clumsy
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Clumsy
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1706
Joined: January 10, 2016
Location: MAP:08

Post Post #82 (ISO) » Wed Nov 30, 2016 12:13 am

Post by Clumsy »

I could see it that way too. But either way, the advantage of the moderator knowing the alt is no greater than the advantage (or loss of disadvantage) of the alt in the first place. For the record, I don't want alts outlawed. I just think that the issue brought forth in this thread is less than or equal to what already exists with alts.
Current game: Witch Trials Mafia, in Mini Theme Queue. 2/6 Pre-ins.

Next D&D game: In design stage.
User avatar
callforjudgement
callforjudgement
Microprocessor
User avatar
User avatar
callforjudgement
Microprocessor
Microprocessor
Posts: 3972
Joined: September 1, 2011

Post Post #83 (ISO) » Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:55 am

Post by callforjudgement »

Most alts are known by a subset of players already. Often when I've been playing in a game with an apparently secret alt in, half the players already knew who it was, and lead to some amount of confusion to me because they didn't want to "give away who it was".

As such, adding the site staff to the list of people knowing who the alt is is hardly problematic, and something that's clearly necessary to run the site properly. (As a game moderator, I rely on the list moderators to let me know if someone's trying to join my game under two different accounts; it makes more sense for the list moderators to have the information needed to check for that, than for
every game mod
to need to know. Luckily, that particular form of cheating is rare and tends to be caught quickly.)
scum
· scam · seam · team · term · tern · torn ·
town
User avatar
Gamma Emerald
Gamma Emerald
She/It
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
Gamma Emerald
She/It
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 69101
Joined: August 9, 2016
Pronoun: She/It
Location: Hell on Earth (aka Texas)

Post Post #84 (ISO) » Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:04 am

Post by Gamma Emerald »

I've only seen that form of cheating once and it was on another site.
<Embrace The Void>


My pronouns are she and it, please respect that. I don't mind the occasional slip.
User avatar
Allomancer
Allomancer
Goon
User avatar
User avatar
Allomancer
Goon
Goon
Posts: 958
Joined: November 5, 2016
Location: Earth

Post Post #85 (ISO) » Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:41 am

Post by Allomancer »

In post 10, pirate mollie wrote:
In post 3, Nexus wrote:#banallalts
In post 13, Spiffeh wrote:
In post 8, Cheetory6 wrote:The mods should ban one person every day to appease the hungry masses.
ftfy
In post 24, Lady Lambdadelta wrote:Additionally, looking at it from the other perspective, how do you reconcile the advantages this could grant a member of the moderation team?

And I'm not talking about abuse or breaking the rules states here, I mean that there now exist a set of players on site who may or may not have the knowledge of who you are, when much of the point of an alt is often to remove just that.

No matter how you look at it, it provides a significant consideration, even if the moderator DOESN'T know who the person is.

Because the mod is gagged on speaking about it, players are left to make their own assumptions about whether or not the mod knows the identity of the user and thus whether that factors into the strength of their read or how other people view them.

There's just no possible way it doesn't shift the dynamic of the game, at least in some small capacity.
"Who the fuck counts in Babylonian? I'm impressed sir. So impressed that I'm going to ruin your counting."—
xofelf

"This might be the worst hydra I've seen in all of mafiascum history."—
T-bone

"idk, you don't feel like an easy mislynch"—
Creature
User avatar
Allomancer
Allomancer
Goon
User avatar
User avatar
Allomancer
Goon
Goon
Posts: 958
Joined: November 5, 2016
Location: Earth

Post Post #86 (ISO) » Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:42 am

Post by Allomancer »

In post 81, Vi wrote:Bob's initial score is negative. Using the alt puts him back to zero. That's why people use alts.
"Who the fuck counts in Babylonian? I'm impressed sir. So impressed that I'm going to ruin your counting."—
xofelf

"This might be the worst hydra I've seen in all of mafiascum history."—
T-bone

"idk, you don't feel like an easy mislynch"—
Creature
User avatar
Kublai Khan
Kublai Khan
Khan Man
User avatar
User avatar
Kublai Khan
Khan Man
Khan Man
Posts: 5278
Joined: August 5, 2008
Location: Sarasota, FL

Post Post #87 (ISO) » Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:10 am

Post by Kublai Khan »

In post 25, Lady Lambdadelta wrote:If I'm being honest, I don't think moderators should be allowed to play in games with alts.

Or they should be forced to publicly reveal at the beginning of the game "I have no knowledge of the identity of any alts in this game".
That's a reasonable request.

But generally mods are an the honor system (much like players are). I trust that moderators to know that the game of mafia is based entirely on knowledge versus lack of knowledge so they have to play at an even level to the other players. If they know that Bob is Albert and it's public info, then whatever the info is out there. But they know that Bob is Albert and the info is private, then they should recuse themselves from the game.

I remember the last game I played I kinda freaked out because I knew a post had been reported. I didn't check who reported it or for what reasons, but I was afraid that the knowledge of the existence of the report was an unfair advantage and I had to contact the Game Mod and List Mod for advice.
Occasionally intellectually honest

Black Lives Matter
Get vaccinated
User avatar
Kublai Khan
Kublai Khan
Khan Man
User avatar
User avatar
Kublai Khan
Khan Man
Khan Man
Posts: 5278
Joined: August 5, 2008
Location: Sarasota, FL

Post Post #88 (ISO) » Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:15 am

Post by Kublai Khan »

In post 79, Porochaz wrote:#banallhydras
^this
Occasionally intellectually honest

Black Lives Matter
Get vaccinated
User avatar
zoraster
zoraster
He/Him
Disorganized Crime
User avatar
User avatar
zoraster
He/Him
Disorganized Crime
Disorganized Crime
Posts: 21680
Joined: June 10, 2008
Pronoun: He/Him
Location: Belmont, CA

Post Post #89 (ISO) » Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:40 am

Post by zoraster »

I'm doing a fair bit of stuff behind the scenes that takes up my time here, but if someone wants to check to see if we've had more no-hydra games after our subtle change in policy regarding them on April 18th? It'd require looking at maybe... 6 months before and the 6 months after and see the rates at which either (a) hydras weren't allowed or (b) hydras didn't play as both are useful metrics.
.
User avatar
Realeo
Realeo
Jack of All Trades
User avatar
User avatar
Realeo
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 5238
Joined: February 11, 2016
Location: Indonesia

Post Post #90 (ISO) » Wed Nov 30, 2016 3:32 pm

Post by Realeo »

In post 89, zoraster wrote:I'm doing a fair bit of stuff behind the scenes that takes up my time here, but if someone wants to check to see if we've had more no-hydra games after our subtle change in policy regarding them on April 18th? It'd require looking at maybe... 6 months before and the 6 months after and see the rates at which either (a) hydras weren't allowed or (b) hydras didn't play as both are useful metrics.
What is this April 18th policy? I may want to help...
"The debate on whether short multi postings or a long wall of post is good or not is like a debate on gun control--we would never understand each other and we have to make peace with it." -Realeo

I'm mabye a serious player, but I'm capable of joke. Ok?
User avatar
callforjudgement
callforjudgement
Microprocessor
User avatar
User avatar
callforjudgement
Microprocessor
Microprocessor
Posts: 3972
Joined: September 1, 2011

Post Post #91 (ISO) » Wed Nov 30, 2016 3:54 pm

Post by callforjudgement »

The policy is that mods are now asked to explicitly state whether they want hydras legal or banned (except in queues like Newbie and Normal which ban them outright), rather than games entering signups without a clear policy on hydras (often leading players and mods to assume they were allowed by default).
scum
· scam · seam · team · term · tern · torn ·
town
User avatar
Elbirn
Elbirn
Content Aficionado
User avatar
User avatar
Elbirn
Content Aficionado
Content Aficionado
Posts: 5384
Joined: November 16, 2014
Location: [GMT-4]

Post Post #92 (ISO) » Fri Dec 02, 2016 7:53 am

Post by Elbirn »

In post 77, vonflare wrote: However, if people use an alt to sign up as a newbie, why wouldn't they just sign up as an SE or IC?
They're a cheater cheater pumpkin eater

It doesn't really help that there is a rule stating that even if you are are alt, you cannot play a newbie game at all until that account has enough game experience to play as an SE/IC

I really see no reason why an alt couldn't just /in as SE while declaring themselves to be an alt, contacting the list mod with their main account to verify
User avatar
Cheery Dog
Cheery Dog
Kayak
User avatar
User avatar
Cheery Dog
Kayak
Kayak
Posts: 8035
Joined: June 30, 2012
Location: OMG BALL!

Post Post #93 (ISO) » Fri Dec 02, 2016 2:04 pm

Post by Cheery Dog »

I believe it's because we want newbies to be able to read part games of the people they're playing with. Or might have been the general idea.

At least that's how I felt in my first game when the game's mod stuffed up and gave a newbie and an SE account the wrong way around in my first game. (Neither previous slot had posted, so the fact one was a townie and the other mafia barely made a difference)

Also alts are allowed to replace into newbie slots
Holder of the Longest Continuous Weekly Mafiascum Post Record. 1 July 2012 - 16 Feb 2023
*It may be held by someone else if you discount the major downtime in 2012 and 2014, I'm not doing the research.
User avatar
Mr. Flay
Mr. Flay
Metatron
User avatar
User avatar
Mr. Flay
Metatron
Metatron
Posts: 24969
Joined: March 12, 2004
Location: Gormenghast
Contact:

Post Post #94 (ISO) » Sun Dec 04, 2016 4:53 pm

Post by Mr. Flay »

In post 25, Lady Lambdadelta wrote:If I'm being honest, I don't think moderators should be allowed to play in games with alts.
I will gladly come back to the site when all alts are banned.
Retired as of October 2014.
User avatar
Lady Lambdadelta
Lady Lambdadelta
She/Faer
Rise of the Phoenix
User avatar
User avatar
Lady Lambdadelta
She/Faer
Rise of the Phoenix
Rise of the Phoenix
Posts: 25197
Joined: August 31, 2010
Pronoun: She/Faer
Location: formerly in a Rage

Post Post #95 (ISO) » Sun Dec 04, 2016 4:56 pm

Post by Lady Lambdadelta »

In post 94, Mr. Flay wrote:
In post 25, Lady Lambdadelta wrote:If I'm being honest, I don't think moderators should be allowed to play in games with alts.
I will gladly come back to the site when all alts are banned.
Alright folks, you heard it here. Someone get it done. #BanAllAlts
Yes my Lord, but questions are dangerous, for they have answers.

13 heads and counting now, plurality is adaptive. If our experience might help you,
click here
.
If you wish to
speak to one of us
, we are Niamh, Rhiannon, Rhea, Aisling, Saoirse, Selene, Aoife, Fírinne, Aurélie, Lyra, Airna, Fiadh and Laoise.
Soar on wings of retribution and set the world ablaze
User avatar
mykonian
mykonian
Frisian Shoulder-Demon
User avatar
User avatar
mykonian
Frisian Shoulder-Demon
Frisian Shoulder-Demon
Posts: 11963
Joined: August 27, 2008

Post Post #96 (ISO) » Sun Dec 04, 2016 5:12 pm

Post by mykonian »

nexus for admin!
Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.
User avatar
GreyICE
GreyICE
Fifty Shades
User avatar
User avatar
GreyICE
Fifty Shades
Fifty Shades
Posts: 15455
Joined: December 15, 2010

Post Post #97 (ISO) » Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:03 am

Post by GreyICE »

In post 96, mykonian wrote:nexus for admin!
Please no
Show
That which is done out of love always takes place beyond good and evil


Official Visigoth

Read Mother Jones
User avatar
mykonian
mykonian
Frisian Shoulder-Demon
User avatar
User avatar
mykonian
Frisian Shoulder-Demon
Frisian Shoulder-Demon
Posts: 11963
Joined: August 27, 2008

Post Post #98 (ISO) » Tue Dec 06, 2016 4:22 pm

Post by mykonian »

:]
Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.
User avatar
davesaz
davesaz
He
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
davesaz
He
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 12556
Joined: August 24, 2014
Pronoun: He
Location: Socially distant

Post Post #99 (ISO) » Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:01 pm

Post by davesaz »

On another site I've been in the position of being a mod with the ability to potentially uncover info which is meant to be secret.
The answer is to have a policy within staff that mods will voluntarily replace out if they uncover info that gives them an unfair advantage.
That's how we did it, and the player community was fine with it. We knew the mods were vetted before being given the position, and only trustworthy people would be invited to begin with.
I feel pretty confident the same degree of care is taken here with mod selection.
Wanna play Minecraft with your ms friends? Check out the minecraft thread, or the channel on discord
Post Reply

Return to “News”