Rule Addition Regarding Hiding Identity from Staff

This forum is for Administrators to post news concerning the site and forums.
User avatar
Hoopla
Hoopla
User avatar
User avatar
Hoopla
Posts: 10788
Joined: October 12, 2008

Post Post #50 (ISO) » Mon Nov 28, 2016 8:52 pm

Post by Hoopla »

In post 48, Lady Lambdadelta wrote:the knowledge of who alts are is a powerful tool for someone who actually uses meta, yes.
and the use of an alt is a powerful tool for someone to escape meta.

it stands to reason if you're against mods playing with alts, you're against alts playing with regular users anchored to their playing history. both alts and mods have a theoretical advantage over another group of players. ultimately, it doesn't really matter though.
User avatar
chamber
chamber
Cases are scummy
User avatar
User avatar
chamber
Cases are scummy
Cases are scummy
Posts: 10703
Joined: November 20, 2005

Post Post #51 (ISO) » Mon Nov 28, 2016 9:16 pm

Post by chamber »

I haven't played mafia very much recently. But I remember when I both played more frequently and had more extensive knowledge of alts, I hated playing in games with them. It was a nightmare if I ever thought something because I knew who was behind the wheel. I suspect the mods will already be self selecting for it.
Taking a break from the site.
User avatar
RadiantCowbells
RadiantCowbells
He/him
Smooth Criminal
User avatar
User avatar
RadiantCowbells
He/him
Smooth Criminal
Smooth Criminal
Posts: 70855
Joined: February 24, 2013
Pronoun: He/him
Contact:

Post Post #52 (ISO) » Tue Nov 29, 2016 12:02 am

Post by RadiantCowbells »

I'll put together a full write up on why I feel like this is unhealthy for the site in general.

I need to finish up my role PMs before class though so later.
2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.
User avatar
zoraster
zoraster
He/Him
Disorganized Crime
User avatar
User avatar
zoraster
He/Him
Disorganized Crime
Disorganized Crime
Posts: 21680
Joined: June 10, 2008
Pronoun: He/Him
Location: Belmont, CA

Post Post #53 (ISO) » Tue Nov 29, 2016 2:06 am

Post by zoraster »

Game mods are welcome to exclude staff members if they want to make absolutely sure those playing on secret alts won't be known to other users.

For what it's worth, Site Chat mods don't have the ability to tell alts.
.
User avatar
chamber
chamber
Cases are scummy
User avatar
User avatar
chamber
Cases are scummy
Cases are scummy
Posts: 10703
Joined: November 20, 2005

Post Post #54 (ISO) » Tue Nov 29, 2016 2:23 am

Post by chamber »

I do feel the rule is a bit silly to have. If only because I don't think it will actually change anyone's behavior. The people breaking it will still be people that don't know better and people that are malicious. But the core idea is fine so~
Taking a break from the site.
User avatar
Rhinox
Rhinox
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Rhinox
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 3909
Joined: June 29, 2008
Location: Northeast Ohio

Post Post #55 (ISO) » Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:57 am

Post by Rhinox »

The whole idea of this rule makes me uncomfortable. The stance that "anonymity is bad, people do bad things with anonymity and only bad people with something to hide need to be anonymous" is not really a stance I can agree with at all or support even if I personally don't try very hard to be anonymous and hide my real life identity. What does the site consider our identity to be anyways? Is it the email address used when creating our first accounts? The IP addresses we've logged in from? The identity/persona we created/claimed to be when the first account was created? Our real life identity?
User avatar
GreyICE
GreyICE
Fifty Shades
User avatar
User avatar
GreyICE
Fifty Shades
Fifty Shades
Posts: 15455
Joined: December 15, 2010

Post Post #56 (ISO) » Tue Nov 29, 2016 6:20 am

Post by GreyICE »

I don't think moderators playing mafia is a problem. I think the problem is most of the moderators don't play mafia.
Show
That which is done out of love always takes place beyond good and evil


Official Visigoth

Read Mother Jones
User avatar
Nahdia
Nahdia
They/Them
Scheherazade
User avatar
User avatar
Nahdia
They/Them
Scheherazade
Scheherazade
Posts: 10626
Joined: February 14, 2016
Pronoun: They/Them

Post Post #57 (ISO) » Tue Nov 29, 2016 6:20 am

Post by Nahdia »

modding sucks and i think knowledge of everyone's alts is a decent compensation.
we're all made of stories | remember to take your b12 | sign up for a GTKAS thread! (request access here)

"I’m going to harness love for epidemiological purposes."
-Zaphkael, 2020
User avatar
chamber
chamber
Cases are scummy
User avatar
User avatar
chamber
Cases are scummy
Cases are scummy
Posts: 10703
Joined: November 20, 2005

Post Post #58 (ISO) » Tue Nov 29, 2016 6:31 am

Post by chamber »

In post 55, Rhinox wrote:The whole idea of this rule makes me uncomfortable. The stance that "anonymity is bad, people do bad things with anonymity and only bad people with something to hide need to be anonymous" is not really a stance I can agree with at all or support even if I personally don't try very hard to be anonymous and hide my real life identity. What does the site consider our identity to be anyways? Is it the email address used when creating our first accounts? The IP addresses we've logged in from? The identity/persona we created/claimed to be when the first account was created? Our real life identity?
I can't speak for the mods but I'm pretty sure all they care is that your accounts are linked so that they can ban you collectively if you break rules, and ensure game cheating isn't happening.

If you use different emails or hide your IP they explicitly said they don't care as long as accounts are linked. It's only when you do those things and don't link accounts that they care.
Taking a break from the site.
User avatar
zoraster
zoraster
He/Him
Disorganized Crime
User avatar
User avatar
zoraster
He/Him
Disorganized Crime
Disorganized Crime
Posts: 21680
Joined: June 10, 2008
Pronoun: He/Him
Location: Belmont, CA

Post Post #59 (ISO) » Tue Nov 29, 2016 6:53 am

Post by zoraster »

Yeah, we're not interested in knowing who you REALLY are. I don't care that you're Sir Rhinox of Middleford the III in real life or whatever. All I want to do is link your accounts for official purposes. Primarily this is for enforcing bans and establishing a pattern of behavior from the same user. For example, compare three completely different people who post an abusive message toward a user vs. three alts from the same user posting abusive messages toward a user. The former might end up in warnings for those three people. The latter might warrant heavier action as it's a pattern of behavior.

There are some secondary benefits like making it easier to catch cheaters, making sure that those marked as newbies in newbie games aren't actually established users, and so forth.

The simple truth is that the change in rule may seem large, but it's pretty minor. Few people work to hide their identity in a way that is the primary driver, and almost all of them are banned users.
.
User avatar
KuroiXHF
KuroiXHF
Jack of All Trades
User avatar
User avatar
KuroiXHF
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 6191
Joined: December 10, 2015
Location: King Kuroi

Post Post #60 (ISO) » Tue Nov 29, 2016 6:55 am

Post by KuroiXHF »

In post 59, zoraster wrote:Yeah, we're not interested in knowing who you REALLY are. I don't care that you're Sir Rhinox of Middleford the III in real life or whatever. All I want to do is link your accounts for official purposes. Primarily this is for enforcing bans and establishing a pattern of behavior from the same user. For example, compare three completely different people who post an abusive message toward a user vs. three alts from the same user posting abusive messages toward a user. The former might end up in warnings for those three people. The latter might warrant heavier action as it's a pattern of behavior.

There are some secondary benefits like making it easier to catch cheaters, making sure that those marked as newbies in newbie games aren't actually established users, and so forth.

The simple truth is that the change in rule may seem large, but it's pretty minor. Few people work to hide their identity in a way that is the purpose of the rule, and almost all of them are banned users.
Image
Don't listen to him, bud. I think you're wonderful.
"and now i am TURNED ON AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!" - KainTepes

I'm regularly V/LA on the weekends. If this is the weekend and I've not said otherwise, please assume I'm on V/LA.
User avatar
pirate mollie
pirate mollie
thingmaker
User avatar
User avatar
pirate mollie
thingmaker
thingmaker
Posts: 18584
Joined: September 5, 2012

Post Post #61 (ISO) » Tue Nov 29, 2016 7:23 am

Post by pirate mollie »

In post 59, zoraster wrote:There are some secondary benefits like making it easier to catch cheaters, making sure that those marked as newbies in newbie games aren't actually established users, and so forth.
its about time. I know for a fact that there are users who pretend to be newbies and nothing ever happens to them. I thought you guys encouraged it in order to feed the illusion that the active membership base is larger than what it is. so I stopped caring.

but its good that you are finally doing something about it now, I guess.
whew!
User avatar
chamber
chamber
Cases are scummy
User avatar
User avatar
chamber
Cases are scummy
Cases are scummy
Posts: 10703
Joined: November 20, 2005

Post Post #62 (ISO) » Tue Nov 29, 2016 7:41 am

Post by chamber »

In post 61, pirate mollie wrote:
In post 59, zoraster wrote:There are some secondary benefits like making it easier to catch cheaters, making sure that those marked as newbies in newbie games aren't actually established users, and so forth.
its about time. I know for a fact that there are users who pretend to be newbies and nothing ever happens to them. I thought you guys encouraged it in order to feed the illusion that the active membership base is larger than what it is. so I stopped caring.

but its good that you are finally doing something about it now, I guess.
Mina has always screened newbies (And I assume previous newbie list mods do as well), but she's not omnipotent. If they hide their tracks well enough to get into a game she likely stops tracking their activity. If you see suspicious behaviour, report it.
Taking a break from the site.
User avatar
Clumsy
Clumsy
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Clumsy
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1706
Joined: January 10, 2016
Location: MAP:08

Post Post #63 (ISO) » Tue Nov 29, 2016 8:27 am

Post by Clumsy »

On the topic of alts, don't they get the same advantage that's in question here?
In post 16, Accountant wrote:Wouldn't it provide the mod an unfair advantage in meta terms? Say Bob makes an alt, Albert. Bob has a specific and distinctive tell that he only does as scum, but he doesn't mind doing it as Albert because nobody knows it's him. One day, a staff member discovers his identity as part of their duties and now knows Albert is Bob, which gives them a game advantage.
Bob has played with Charlie in many games. Charlie also has a tell, but isn't using an alt. Bob is playing as Albert this game. Now, Bob has the game advantage, as Bob knows Charlie, but Charlie does not know Albert.

Going a step further, Bob might know half of this game's player list. If Albert is truly secret, the purpose of this theoretical alt, now Bob has advantage on half the player list. If this is okay, then why isn't it okay for the moderation team to have all alts known just for official capacity?

I get that alts are used for different reasons, one of those being to avoid meta, but it confers it's own game advantages. For instance, if Thor665 made same strange, super noob mistake, someone would call him out on it. But what about Yarn97, Thorn's (made up just now) alt? Is Yarn new? He could certainly pretend to be, while he watches Titus and UTL play, knowing how they play. How is this not analagous to the subject at hand? If alts are okay, then this moderator duty tool FOR MODERATION should be a non-issue.

all names were picked out of a hat
Current game: Witch Trials Mafia, in Mini Theme Queue. 2/6 Pre-ins.

Next D&D game: In design stage.
User avatar
Elbirn
Elbirn
Content Aficionado
User avatar
User avatar
Elbirn
Content Aficionado
Content Aficionado
Posts: 5384
Joined: November 16, 2014
Location: [GMT-4]

Post Post #64 (ISO) » Tue Nov 29, 2016 8:35 am

Post by Elbirn »

Alts are cheating anyway
User avatar
Zachrulez
Zachrulez
Jack of All Trades
User avatar
User avatar
Zachrulez
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 8550
Joined: December 5, 2008
Location: Minnesota

Post Post #65 (ISO) » Tue Nov 29, 2016 8:42 am

Post by Zachrulez »

I feel like things would be much simpler without alts. ;)
User avatar
Glork
Glork
Burdened by Proficiency
User avatar
User avatar
Glork
Burdened by Proficiency
Burdened by Proficiency
Posts: 14106
Joined: July 13, 2005
Location: Dance into the fire

Post Post #66 (ISO) » Tue Nov 29, 2016 9:42 am

Post by Glork »

Secret alts themselves are WAY bigger theoretical problem than forum mods having knowledge of secret alts.

People play differently when I'm in a game. If I wanted to gain an unfair advantage, I'd play under a secret alt and have a distinct advantage over players who don't know they have to play around Glork.

I sort of kind of get what LLD is saying, but I feel as though she's missing the forest for the trees if she wants to discuss the fairness of (secret) alts in mafia games.
Green Shirt Thursdays


Get to know a Glork!
User avatar
Lady Lambdadelta
Lady Lambdadelta
She/Faer
Rise of the Phoenix
User avatar
User avatar
Lady Lambdadelta
She/Faer
Rise of the Phoenix
Rise of the Phoenix
Posts: 25197
Joined: August 31, 2010
Pronoun: She/Faer
Location: formerly in a Rage

Post Post #67 (ISO) » Tue Nov 29, 2016 9:46 am

Post by Lady Lambdadelta »

In post 66, Glork wrote:Secret alts themselves are WAY bigger theoretical problem than forum mods having knowledge of secret alts.

People play differently when I'm in a game. If I wanted to gain an unfair advantage, I'd play under a secret alt and have a distinct advantage over players who don't know they have to play around Glork.

I sort of kind of get what LLD is saying, but I feel as though she's missing the forest for the trees if she wants to discuss the fairness of (secret) alts in mafia games.
I'm not entirely sure I buy it?

Like yes, there are advantages to the loss of your burden of proficiency, but isn't losing that same fame isn't own disadvantage? New players are often disregarded, and secret alts have a stigma against them.

I don't think secret alts gain the advantage you're thinking of, because if general if someone is public about saying "I'm an alt but I won't tell you of who" then I just lynch them?

Also, shifting backwards a moment: If secret alts are such an issue, what about hydras with non labelled heads?
Yes my Lord, but questions are dangerous, for they have answers.

13 heads and counting now, plurality is adaptive. If our experience might help you,
click here
.
If you wish to
speak to one of us
, we are Niamh, Rhiannon, Rhea, Aisling, Saoirse, Selene, Aoife, Fírinne, Aurélie, Lyra, Airna, Fiadh and Laoise.
Soar on wings of retribution and set the world ablaze
User avatar
Glork
Glork
Burdened by Proficiency
User avatar
User avatar
Glork
Burdened by Proficiency
Burdened by Proficiency
Posts: 14106
Joined: July 13, 2005
Location: Dance into the fire

Post Post #68 (ISO) » Tue Nov 29, 2016 10:24 am

Post by Glork »

I mean, I've done it before, and I can honestly say that it was a massive boon, but I stopped doing it because it felt like cheating.
Green Shirt Thursdays


Get to know a Glork!
User avatar
Clumsy
Clumsy
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Clumsy
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1706
Joined: January 10, 2016
Location: MAP:08

Post Post #69 (ISO) » Tue Nov 29, 2016 10:50 am

Post by Clumsy »

In post 67, Lady Lambdadelta wrote:
In post 66, Glork wrote:Secret alts themselves are WAY bigger theoretical problem than forum mods having knowledge of secret alts.

People play differently when I'm in a game. If I wanted to gain an unfair advantage, I'd play under a secret alt and have a distinct advantage over players who don't know they have to play around Glork.

I sort of kind of get what LLD is saying, but I feel as though she's missing the forest for the trees if she wants to discuss the fairness of (secret) alts in mafia games.
I'm not entirely sure I buy it?

Like yes, there are advantages to the loss of your burden of proficiency, but isn't losing that same fame isn't own disadvantage? New players are often disregarded, and secret alts have a stigma against them.

I don't think secret alts gain the advantage you're thinking of, because if general if someone is public about saying "I'm an alt but I won't tell you of who" then I just lynch them?

Also, shifting backwards a moment: If secret alts are such an issue, what about hydras with non labelled heads?

If secret alts don't have the advantage coming from people not knowing who it is, then how is it advantageous for a moderator to know the main? Either there is advantage to be had and the mod knowing negates that/provides advantage, or it's neutral. If you really have a tell that obvious, you should focus on improving, not hiding until people link the tell again. If you're alting because you want to try different playstyles, you shouldn't have too much of an issue. If you alt because people don't like you, the issue isn't what is being discussed here.

Also, general "you"s here.
Current game: Witch Trials Mafia, in Mini Theme Queue. 2/6 Pre-ins.

Next D&D game: In design stage.
User avatar
Clumsy
Clumsy
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Clumsy
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1706
Joined: January 10, 2016
Location: MAP:08

Post Post #70 (ISO) » Tue Nov 29, 2016 10:59 am

Post by Clumsy »

What I mean is, let's say Bob has his tell. Playing as "Bob" would be our set neutral or control.

Bob=0

If Bob plays as Albert, it gives him an advantage in the game because people won't know his tell.

Bob + Albert = 2

A mod who knows the alt will know that it's Bob.

Mod = (the advantage of)Albert

Bob + Albert - Mod = 0

So, since both Albert and Mod are greater than 0, each confers an advantage. If you think Albert doesn't give an advantage (or as much of one), Mod doesn't confer much advantage, because it is, in essence, a nullifier.
Current game: Witch Trials Mafia, in Mini Theme Queue. 2/6 Pre-ins.

Next D&D game: In design stage.
User avatar
Lady Lambdadelta
Lady Lambdadelta
She/Faer
Rise of the Phoenix
User avatar
User avatar
Lady Lambdadelta
She/Faer
Rise of the Phoenix
Rise of the Phoenix
Posts: 25197
Joined: August 31, 2010
Pronoun: She/Faer
Location: formerly in a Rage

Post Post #71 (ISO) » Tue Nov 29, 2016 11:06 am

Post by Lady Lambdadelta »

In post 57, Nahdia wrote:modding sucks and i think knowledge of everyone's alts is a decent compensation.
Compensation? Isn't this a volunteer position?
Yes my Lord, but questions are dangerous, for they have answers.

13 heads and counting now, plurality is adaptive. If our experience might help you,
click here
.
If you wish to
speak to one of us
, we are Niamh, Rhiannon, Rhea, Aisling, Saoirse, Selene, Aoife, Fírinne, Aurélie, Lyra, Airna, Fiadh and Laoise.
Soar on wings of retribution and set the world ablaze
User avatar
Lady Lambdadelta
Lady Lambdadelta
She/Faer
Rise of the Phoenix
User avatar
User avatar
Lady Lambdadelta
She/Faer
Rise of the Phoenix
Rise of the Phoenix
Posts: 25197
Joined: August 31, 2010
Pronoun: She/Faer
Location: formerly in a Rage

Post Post #72 (ISO) » Tue Nov 29, 2016 11:07 am

Post by Lady Lambdadelta »

Also, if it sucks that badly, again, isn't this a volunteer position? They can just resign. It's happened before and can happen again.
Yes my Lord, but questions are dangerous, for they have answers.

13 heads and counting now, plurality is adaptive. If our experience might help you,
click here
.
If you wish to
speak to one of us
, we are Niamh, Rhiannon, Rhea, Aisling, Saoirse, Selene, Aoife, Fírinne, Aurélie, Lyra, Airna, Fiadh and Laoise.
Soar on wings of retribution and set the world ablaze
User avatar
zoraster
zoraster
He/Him
Disorganized Crime
User avatar
User avatar
zoraster
He/Him
Disorganized Crime
Disorganized Crime
Posts: 21680
Joined: June 10, 2008
Pronoun: He/Him
Location: Belmont, CA

Post Post #73 (ISO) » Tue Nov 29, 2016 11:38 am

Post by zoraster »

Everyone on the staff, including me, is on some sort of timeline to retiring. That's just the deal with a volunteer gig (also death comes for us all unless you're Yosarian2). People doing the job aren't "compensated" with the ability to tell alts. They wouldn't have the power to do so if I didn't think it was necessary for performing our duties. But it absolutely is, so they absolutely will retain the ability to do so.
.
User avatar
Shadoweh
Shadoweh
Idol Hands
User avatar
User avatar
Shadoweh
Idol Hands
Idol Hands
Posts: 4276
Joined: November 9, 2011

Post Post #74 (ISO) » Tue Nov 29, 2016 12:22 pm

Post by Shadoweh »

Image
I HATE YOU SO MUCH PLEASE GO JUMP INTO A FREEZING LAKE - Mr. Freeze
And this was like me realizing that you were a serial killer. - Hathor
"but I must declare my love to Edelgard here, i offer you the treasure I stole from Raphael, an idol LOL" - Shamir
Post Reply

Return to “News”