Pokemon X/Y Thread

[Patrick]

EDIT-I want to breed a starmie, should I go for a bulky build, or a tanky rapid spinner? I also heard defog is good now (and will beat out rapid spin for entry hazard clear), but I'm not sure who can use it.
This is the first pokemon I've tried getting into the competitive meta. I did a little last gen but I didn't really do that much besides ev train and breed on the train.

From my experience, the more bulky spinblocker (maxing out speed and HP) works quite well, with a moveset similar to what you've given here. Surf or Scald can be better than hydro pump on this version, just going for reliability and PP over pure power.

The other main way to use Starmie is Recover+3 attacks, with a life orb and maxed speed and special attack. It's a dangerous sweeper but won't stick around as long. I haven't played any competitive gen 6 yet but I expect Starmie to still be solid OU despite Defog.

[Patrick]

Mega Gengar seems fairly ridiculous.

[Patrick]

Was I the only one here who sorta liked Gen5 (not sleep mechanics or stuff, but in general?)

As someone who played both gen4 and gen5 competitively (though I've only started playing a bit now after not playing for a year or so), I have to say I don't like how dominant weather was in gen5. I played at the time when Swift Swim was legal with drizzle, and found it too centralised towards rain teams, and even now with the swift swim ban, you pretty much have to run a weather starter for your team to be competitive. I'd prefer a meta where having weather on your team is genuinely optional, but I don't know whether that can happen - we'll see how gen6 develops.

Since you mention sleep mechanics, I don't know why sleep moves got buffed in gen5 and I'm glad to see the mechanic changing back in gen6. They made rest-talk sets completely unviable, and granted not many things could run them in the fast paced meta anyway but I like having the option there.

Is there anywhere you can battle online with gen6 pokemon? I play on PO and couldn't seem to find the option, but I've seen plenty of people on the forums say they've been doing it.

[Patrick]

Eventually managed to get the gen6 update on Pokémon Online and try some competitive gen6. Currently using this team:

Venusaur - Evo Stone - EVs in HP and spdef
Giga Drain
Synthesis
Sludge Bomb
Leech Seed

Milotic - Leftovers - EVs in HP and def
Scald
Recover
Toxic
Haze

Togekiss - Leftovers - EVs in HP and def
Air Slash
Roost
Thunder wave
Aura Sphere

Scizor - Leftovers - EVs in HP and attack
Bullet Punch
Roost
Defog
Swords dance

Terrakion - Choice Band - EVs in speed and attack
Close Combat
Stone Edge
X-scissor
Quick attack

Dragonite - Lum Berry - EVs in attack and speed
Outrage
Dragon dance
Extremespeed
Fire punch

Obviously low rated atm so battles don't necessarily much about the meta yet, but in terms of new pokemon, I mainly ran into a lot of Aegislash and Greninja. Aegislash looks like it's here to stay, and I expect based on that alone Terrakion will no longer be the best Choice Bander in OU. Aegislash walls it entirely, which is significant since in gen5 you could pretty much hit everything neutrally with fighting/rock coverage alone. In fact, any Terrakion set will struggle to do much until Aegislash is eliminated.

Greninja seems unimpressive. The ability that changes it's typing to whatever type of move it last used is interesting, but just as often seems to help its opponent. Any bulky water type switches in comfortably, as does Venusaur on this team.

Togekiss seems incredibly good at switching into all sorts of dangerous dragon types. If he stays OU, I expect a lot of physical dragons to start using coverage moves like stone edge or iron head to get through.

Mega Venusaur is a very sturdy wall. Thick fat takes away the important fire and ice weaknesses, leaving only flying and psychic, two types that aren't used much as coverage moves. It also hits decently hard and can hit things that resist its moves with an annoying leech seed. Probably not the best use of the one mega evolution you get on your team, but surprisingly good at switching into a lot of threats.

Defog is huge. I wonder how many teams we'll see just using defog alongside no entry hazards. I haven't really looked to see how well distributed Defog is, but Scizor uses it fairly well, while filling several other roles on a team.

This was a team just thrown together in minutes, but first impression of the meta was good. I like not being forced to cram a weather starter and a stealth rock user onto every team. I don't think fully blown stall teams (laying down rocks, stacking layers of spikes etc) will be very popular due to Defog, but I could see the meta still moving away from the hyper hyper offensive one of gen5. Less weather means fewer boosted hydro pumps/fire blasts flying around, and similarly dragons can't afford to just spam boosted outrages and draco meteors due to fairy types. We shall see.

[Patrick]

I hadn't really looked at Gourgeist apart from knowing it was a grass/ghost. At a quick look it seems a lot less tanky, doesn't have as much recovery and has many more weaknesses, preventing it from switching in and out constantly throughout the match. I can easily believe Mega Scizor is good though.

Stockpiloptomus comes back into vogue

While I would love to see this, I don't really remember it ever being in vogue. It's infuriating for the opponent when it works, but there are so many ways to stop it.

[Patrick]

Last slot is my real reason for posting--I just have no idea what to put in the slot. I've tried so many things and they all just don't work. It needs to have priority and be a full-fledged boosting sweeper, but otherwise I have no idea what to do. I had the most success with MKangashkan and MAbsol, but Absol was way too squishy and Kanghaskan too slow, so nix on them.

That Scizor you have looks good in the slot. I used the same set in gen4 and gen5 and found it worth it's weight in gold. And having a steel type on the team is always nice. The only other pokemon that I could think of that fits your criteria would be Mega Lucario.

[Patrick]

Didn't he get worse with the steel typing nerfs?

Steel didn't get nerfed that badly considering it's strong against fairies. And Lucario can still setup on dark type moves easily enough.

I haven't tried Mega Lucario yet but on paper it looks really strong. Nice boost in offensive stats and a crucial boost in speed to help in outrun a much bigger portion of the meta than it could before, making it less reliant on its priority move. And with adaptability making the STAB bonus x 2 instead of x1.5, your close combat hits with a base power of 240. That's 480 after a swords dance. I'd be willing to bet a boosted close combat KOs everything in the game that doesn't resist it, making physical walls like Hippo and Skarmory useless for countering Lucario. Even Gliscor and Landorus-T have to be afraid of Lucario potentially running ice punch to get past them. And fragile revenge killers just get bonked by Extremespeed. I'm expecting Mega Lucario to be a huge threat in the OU metagame.

[Patrick]

Strongly disagree, considering one of its issues before was that it couldn't outrun a lot of things it wanted to. And of course there are ways to revenge kill it, like any other sweeper, the trick is to setup at the right time.

[Patrick]

Patrick have you used a Mega Lucario yet? What kind of moveset do you like for him?
Also do people still use special Lucario as a *surprise* or is he really that bad?

Just been trying him out, my impression is he wants to be running Close Combat + Swords Dance + two of Extremespeed/Ice Punch/Crunch. Ice punch to get past Gliscor, Landorus and a few other types/dragons that resist fighting, Crunch gets past annoying ghosts like Aegislash and Jellicent who wall you otherwise, as well as the odd Slowbro. Extremespeed seems probably too important to drop, despite the coverage you'd get from running both ice punch and crunch. Scarf Heatran is the best check to this Lucario that I can think of, most other things seem like they have to gamble a bit on which coverage move you're running.

I've encountered a few special Lucario, fwiw. Doesn't seem that bad? But unless the thing learns ice beam, I think I'd rather use physical sets.

[Patrick]

Bullet punch hits with the same power as Extremespeed, but steel is a pretty bad attacking type in general. OTOH, Extremespeed lets you hit faster things like Starmie, Jolteon, Infernape, Blaziken, Thunderus, Talonflame, which Bullet Punch would fail to KO. Bullet punch lets you hit Fairies plus a few random things like Scarf Terakion, Scarf Tar, Scarf Gengar (lol). Unless you have a very specific reason for wanting bullet punch, I'd say Extremespeed is better.

Run Crunch--Dark STAB is really good now.

He doesn't get STAB on Crunch. I think there's a legitimate choice between that and Ice Punch, depending on what your team deals with best.

MLucario still loses to a ton of shit cuz it's squishy as hell, so anything that can survive one hit will typically just finish him off.

He has 70/88/70 defensive stats - that's pretty squishy, but steel/fighting is decent defensive typing that should give you enough opportunity to setup. Bring him after one of your pokemon get KOed, bring him on off a slow U-turn, or on an enemy locked into pursuit. I also think you're overstating how easy it is for just anything to one shot him, I can think of plenty of popular pokemon/sets that can't. It seems like your complaint here could apply to just about any fragile sweeper, but it didn't stop things like Infernape and Lucario himself being good in gen4, and things like Gengar, Starmie, Thunderus, Tornados and god knows what else being good in gen5.

[Patrick]

What did you add me on? o_O

[Patrick]

^Agreed

My name on PO is RotomAppliance, for those using it.

[Patrick]

A given distribution of team archetypes, or deeper than that? Normally when I make a team I think of it as being weak or strong against certain pokemon, or a certain poke running a certain moveset, rather than being weak/strong against a whole type of team (though it is possible).

[Patrick]

I'll try him out some more and see.

[Patrick]

Well, TTar is nice setup bait, at least.

[Patrick]

I don't disagree, though most of the ones I've come across aren't using one. Still, the bulkier Tars that just want to lay down stealth rock and fire off a few weak attacks seem pretty popular.

[Patrick]

Brandi, you'll get the hang of it more quickly by trying some battling than you will reading anything posted here. You'll make mistakes, but it's not as hard as it might seem to get a reasonable understanding of the meta. And you'll be on a more level playing field with everyone else since the meta isn't that well defined yet anyway.

[Patrick]

Also, which pokemons are nice tanks with great Def/Sp.DEF?

Great physical bulk: Hippodown, Skarmory, Gliscor, Slowbro
Great special bulk: Blissey, Latias, Milotic

Many others too. If you were asking more about things that appear on the video game that are useful in those roles then I can't really help.

[Patrick]

Doesn't Azumarill run Superpower to hit Ferrothorn, or was that only last gen?

[Patrick]

Last gen I started being hit by Volcarona's having Giga Drain, which made the Milotic set I was using to stop it pretty iffy. I don't know if it only got Giga Drain later in the gen. If it still has that in gen6, Jellicent won't really help against it.

[Patrick]

I encountered a Blissey today running the following:

Calm Mind
Ice Beam
Thunder
Softboiled

The surprise value was immense =)

[Patrick]

Greninja still pretty meh from my experiences. Maybe I've just been lucky in what I'm using in my teams so far. I rarely have trouble finding a good switch in to him.

[Patrick]

SR/Protect/Lava Plume/Ancient Power (once again, for shit like T-Flame and Volcarona).

Ancientpower definitely seems like the sore thumb on this set. Is it even a reliable way of dealing with Volcarona if it manages two quiver dances before you attack it? Toxic seems like it would be just as good for stopping Volcarona while being more widely useful since you can actually punish the bulky waters/other walls that like switching into Heatran, while Ancientpower is only really helping when it's x4 effective. And you could potentially use roar over protect as well. Sure OHKOing things is nice, but your Heatran is going to be a weaker overall pokemon in exchange for maybe dealing better with one or two threats.

[Patrick]

EDIT: On top of that, I've lost pretty much every match today solely because I'm the unluckiest bastard ever and everyone crits me all the time on every hit - anyone else want a free win?

That's the time to stop playing and do something else. Which is easier said than done.

[Patrick]

Yeah, I'm putting AncientPower back on Heatran thanks to the fact that I just got 6-0 swept in Pokebank (the one with Heatran in it) to a Volcarona when I 5-0'd everything else.

Not listening to anyone who says AP is shitty move, play with htis tema on Pokebank, then tell me otherwise:

Hard to say exactly without knowing what the Volcarona was running, but if it went as you say I think you misplayed it. You have team preview so you know your opponent has a Volcarona, so make getting stealth rock up a priority. If it comes in at 50% health then revenge killing it with things like Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch becomes a lot easier, as it's quite frail on the physical side.

I'm not sure which team member it managed setup on, as it looks like most of your team can at least make life hard for it. If it does setup, then more aggressive sets with life orb should be worn down by a combination of smart switching and priority moves, whereas bulkier sets might not be able to KO Gliscor at +1, allowing you to revenge with stone edge. I don't know what the calcs are for Rotom Wash, but maybe he can live through one +1 hit and cripple it with trick.

Also, what did it use to kill Heatran? If it has hp ground then I'm not sure it matters much what moveset your Heatran has, and if it doesn't, then Toxic from Heatran should do the job, since it can't kill him with Bug Buzz in any reasonable timeframe.

Honestly your team doesn't seem that weak to Volcarona.

[Patrick]

Stealth Rock is by far the biggest counter. Losing 50% of your health just for switching in is huge, especially on a fragile sweeper. Just because some Volcaronas can heal themselves doesn't mean SR is useless - they have to spend a crucial turn doing it and a moveslot. For example, if Volcarona heals on it's first turn and you switch in Gliscor, I don't think it should be able to KO you from full health most of the time. The only chance would be a life orb fire blast, which isn't guaranteed to hit nor drop you in one.

Rotom-W can live through a +1 Bug Buzz from bulkier versions of Volcarona, allowing him to trick it. I've never used Volcarona nor faced that many this gen, so I don't know what they most commonly run, but if its a bulky set that heals itself, it doesn't have the power to just muscle through you with one boost.

As for your Heatran, does Ancient Power even come close to KOing Volcarona if it has two dances before you hit it? (Once as you switch in, once again before you go). Even without calcs I'm sure it doesn't. Toxic puts a timer on Volcarona and is a generically useful move to have, unlike Ancientpower. If you're viewing your Heatran as just a machine that you use to KO two specific pokemon, you're approaching it wrong anyway. Toxic gives it a much longer list of pokemon it can do something to, while still probably dealing with Volcarona just as well.

[Patrick]

Even if you insist on having Ancientpower, you could still be running either Roar or Toxic over protect. Both would be more useful against Volcarona and Talonflame, and both have plenty of utility outside of those too.

[Patrick]

EDIT:

Finally, if you really feel you're Volcweak, why not change some EV's on Gliscor to ensure that it can take the hit? Same with Rotom-W

Because I don't want to move all of my defence EVs into special defence is why.

That wasn't the suggestion. The idea is you can invest in just enough special defence to survive certain attacks - using a damage calculator helps, and often Smogon's analysis refers to using very specific EV investments to survive certain things. I'm not sure what that number would be in the case of Gliscor, but I know it can already survive a +1 fiery dance coming off 252 special attack, so it doesn't just go down to anything at all, as you're saying.

So, I'm going to Toxic Volcarona, let it get to +1, switch out to (let's say Rotom-W), let it get to +2, and then sweep my team.

Depends entirely on Volcaronas set. For example a moveset of Dance/Roost/fire move/Bug Buzz would flat out lose to Toxic without being able to do much damage to Heatran, so you just leave Heatran in to laugh at it. Most movesets jut running STAB moves without hp ground would probably lose to it.

Alternatively, I can Roar it out, then move to something else, have it come back in, and watch it Roost (not just once, but TWICE) as I send in Heatran to roar it out again.

For one thing, not every Volcarona is going to run roost, so being roared out several times is going to wear it down pretty fast. If it does have roost and uses it every time it comes in to negate stealth rock damage, you get a free switch in to something that counters it.

[Patrick]

Also, I want a way to beat every set - not just ones without Roost that don't turb this game into stall wars.

Like we've said several times, Roost is beaten by Toxic. I don't think any Heatran is every going to counter every possible set, since it can run hp ground to break through you. Running AP doesn't stop that.

[Patrick]

I'm feeling pretty good with this gen. It seems alot more even. Everything is able to be dealt with, and everything has a flaw that is exploitable.

I feel the same way.

[Patrick]

Umbreon has a better shot than last gen, but I still don't know if it'll be OU. Dark is still a pretty iffy defensive typing, and without toxic or roar, a lot of things can setup on you, especially fighting types. You're also losing momentum to U-turn spam from the likes of Scizor and Genesect. But if it's got teammates covering its weaknesses I'm sure it can be a rock in a defensive core. Does it really stop Gengar though, if it uses focus blast? Come to think of it I've hardly faced any Gengars at all this gen on PO. Maybe people aren't interested in it with Mega Gengar banned, though it's still a solid attacker without the evolution.

[Patrick]

Anyone who uses Showdown have an opinion on whether Mega Kangaskhan should be banned? I use PO and he's banned already, but I plan on moving to Showdown after pokebank comes out / Kang gets banned (which I hope he does). I think Mega Luke will be the next suspect, and I expect that to be a lot more controversial.

[Patrick]

So, having just written that, I skim onto Smogon's site and see that it just got banned.

[Patrick]

Wouldn't mind Genesect banned (mostly because I've never used it), but I don't know whether it needs to be. Maybe some time in Showdown meta will reveal something different.

[Patrick]

I could see it happening on either server, but I think it'll be close. I'm unsure on what I think about it myself atm - he's clearly strong but I'm not sure he's ban worthy.

[Patrick]

I started using Showdown, with the username RotomAppliance. If anyone logs in and sees me there, send me a challenge if you fancy it. I'm in early 1700s atm, but that's only based on a very small number of games.

[Patrick]

Just broke 1500 but now everyone is using Rotom-W, Talon, Ferrothron, etc... Quickly becoming bored with it. I can only imagine what it is like at Patrick's rank.
Apprehensive for PokeBank OU.

You could play Pokebank OU now, it's alot more interesting than playing a version of OU that is missing half the pokemon it should have. Rotom-W and Talonflame are very popular in both metas though, I know when I was using PO they were #1 and #2 in usage charts, respectively. If Talonflame is causing headaches, Eviolite Porygon2 is a good counter:

Porygon2 @ Eviolite
Trait: Trace
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spd
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Thunder Wave
- Recover

It's a stupidly bulky mixed wall that relies on numerical power rather than lots of resistances. Even Adamant Choice Band Talonflame can't come close to 2HKOing you with Brave Bird or Flare Blitz, and you can zap it, paralyse it and out-sustain it. This thing also counters any physical boosting dragon, and a boatload of other threats. I think it's a little better than last gen, with fighting types not being quite as rampant this gen, aside from Mega Luke (who can't even KO it with Close Combat, lol) Of course, you could just use Rotom-Wash to stop Talonflame, which is about half the reason it's so popular.

[Patrick]

Also can't help but think Dragons this gen are shit - can't beat Dragonite/Chomp/Kyurem(-B)/Mence axis.

They took a knock this gen with fairies appearing, which I'm pretty happy with, but I've still found Dragonite to be very effective. Zygarde is the only new non-uber dragon this gen that I can remember, I haven't tried it yet but it looks a little strange. I think it has to work hard not to be played as an inferior Dragonite or Garchomp, so maybe the bulky Coil sets are the way to go. I'm not sure whether it'll make OU, I've come across so few on the ladder.

Discharge / Toxic over Tbolt / Twave

Both plausible, depending on what your team wants. I use him more to keep fast/hard hitting attackers in check, which Thunder wave helps more with.

[Patrick]

I completely forgot about Goodra and Noivern for some reason. I think Goodra would be good pokemon if it learned roost or recover - maybe it will at some point.

Hell, it's setup fodder for a lot of stuff, most notably Aegislash who doesn't care about paralysis.

Like I said, it's designed to be a utility counter that stops fast/aggressive threats and sponges attacks for your team, if I wanted it to kill walls I'd be using toxic on it (and even then likely using something else that has the tools for that job). It near hard counters Dragonite/Garchomp/Salamence/Gyrados, switches into popular threats like Talonflame and Greninja without a care in the world, trolls things like Heatran and Jolteon with Trace. It has the benefit of acting as a physical wall that can also take special attacks well, unlike a lot of walls like Skarmory, Gliscor, Hippo etc, which makes it harder to surprise with a mixed set. I think its best role is usually to patch up holes on more aggressive teams that don't have teamslots to run a proper defensive core, since it can check such a wide variety of threats and doesn't slow down your momentum as much as most walls since it can actually do some damage with BoltBeam coverage and decent special attack. It's not perfect, and almost certainly won't make OU, but I like it as a quirky choice for some teams.

Speaking of Aegislash, I've found as I've got higher up the ladder I'm not running into many that use setup moves, instead using mixed sets with Shadow Ball, Sacred Sword, Shadow Sneak. Porygon can actually do ok against him, though I wouldn't rely on it as a counter.

[Patrick]

It can be pretty awkward to play around =)

[Patrick]

Lots of weird things learn Roost.

[Patrick]

I assume you mean battling against other people on a simulator, in which case http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/ is one place.

http://www.smogon.com/ is a pretty informative site for this, with guides etc for people of all levels.